That's my problem with it. It's legendary, mythic, it's casting cost is higher and requires more colored mana.
Thragtusk didn't care what your life total or board state looked like when it entered/left the battlefield. This is a decidedly worse card.
And the people saying stuff along the lines of there being other cards that can make this playable.....yeah yeah, and gray ogre is playable if it's enchanted with eldrazi conscription
You're not understanding this. You have two points, that are both either misguided or wrong. First Thragtusk was unquestionably the best card in Standard for a year. The fact that this card isn't as good as Thragtusk (which it is not) doesn't really mean anything, since there's a huge gap between Thragtusk, and cards that are good in standard. The fact that this card is not as good as Thragtusk does not mean this card is not good. Your comparison doesn't really hold any water because it is meaningless.
Also are no cards that are needed to make this card good, its just not universally good in every white deck. You need to be playing a certain kind of deck (read: not an aggressive deck) against another certain kind of deck (read: not a slower control deck) in order for her to be good. That's it. If its not good in these match ups that means you're winning. You don't have to play any cards to make it good, only it only works in specific strategies (like almost every other magic card). What you're saying is basically "Linvala sucks because you need to be playing the kind of decks its good in for it to be good."
Why would a deck want to play this over Dragonlord Dromoka? She has an inferior body and the token clause will be a rare trigger, which makes a 3/3....in a standard where a 3/3 is pretty insignificant. If Dromoka connnects ONCE she's already on par with the lifegain trigger of Linvala IF she manages to even get it.
6cc is too slow against atarka red, and her 5 toughness means she dies in combat to a lot of the fliers in standard right now. If you're speculating about a post rotation standard...how is she going to compete with Sire of Stagnation and such?
Why play siege rhino if you can play woodland wondered, if it connects it does more damage. The answer is, because it doesn't need to connect to do anything.
Siege Rhino doesn't have two instances of 'if' in it's rules text. You have to be two creatures behind when you cast Linvala to get the token.
99% of the time Linvala is just going to be a 5/5 flier for 6, that sometimes gains you life. She'll eat the same removal Dromoka will but at least they have to do it on their turn.
Dromoka blocks just about everything in the format, can't be countered, and can't be removed with a spell on your turn. If they have no removal, attacking into Dromoka is a really bad deal because of the lifelink. Linvala on the other hand doesn't have lifelink so that 5 life that you may have got is a one time deal.
That's my problem with it. It's legendary, mythic, it's casting cost is higher and requires more colored mana.
Thragtusk didn't care what your life total or board state looked like when it entered/left the battlefield. This is a decidedly worse card.
And the people saying stuff along the lines of there being other cards that can make this playable.....yeah yeah, and gray ogre is playable if it's enchanted with eldrazi conscription
You're not understanding this. You have two points, that are both either misguided or wrong. First Thragtusk was unquestionably the best card in Standard for a year. The fact that this card isn't as good as Thragtusk (which it is not) doesn't really mean anything, since there's a huge gap between Thragtusk, and cards that are good in standard. The fact that this card is not as good as Thragtusk does not mean this card is not good. Your comparison doesn't really hold any water because it is meaningless.
Also are no cards that are needed to make this card good, its just not universally good in every white deck. You need to be playing a certain kind of deck (read: not an aggressive deck) against another certain kind of deck (read: not a slower control deck) in order for her to be good. That's it. If its not good in these match ups that means you're winning. You don't have to play any cards to make it good, only it only works in specific strategies (like almost every other magic card). What you're saying is basically "Linvala sucks because you need to be playing the kind of decks its good in for it to be good."
Why would a deck want to play this over Dragonlord Dromoka? She has an inferior body and the token clause will be a rare trigger, which makes a 3/3....in a standard where a 3/3 is pretty insignificant. If Dromoka connnects ONCE she's already on par with the lifegain trigger of Linvala IF she manages to even get it.
6cc is too slow against atarka red, and her 5 toughness means she dies in combat to a lot of the fliers in standard right now. If you're speculating about a post rotation standard...how is she going to compete with Sire of Stagnation and such?
Why play siege rhino if you can play woodland wondered, if it connects it does more damage. The answer is, because it doesn't need to connect to do anything.
Siege Rhino doesn't have two instances of 'if' in it's rules text. You have to be two creatures behind when you cast Linvala to get the token.
99% of the time Linvala is just going to be a 5/5 flier for 6, that sometimes gains you life. She'll eat the same removal Dromoka will but at least they have to do it on their turn.
Dromoka blocks just about everything in the format, can't be countered, and can't be removed with a spell on your turn. If they have no removal, attacking into Dromoka is a really bad deal because of the lifelink. Linvala on the other hand doesn't have lifelink so that 5 life that you may have got is a one time deal.
99% of the time is a lot % of the time. I imagine in a lot of builds it probably won't be very hard to get the lifegain trigger. The creature trigger is a bit trickier, which is a problem. But it will be servicable in the right deck.
I also think you're overvaluing Dromoka's "your opponent can't play spells on your turn" clause. In situations like the ones we're considering it's flavor text. There's not much difference between removing your threat on your turn or their turn if their removal is more mana-efficient, and when you're considering a 6-drop, it's going to be. If they have removal, they're probably going to spend 1-5 mana on it (plenty of options ranging from Murderous Cut to Crux of Fate) play another spell in a lot of cases, and continue the game having gained some tempo. So if they're going to remove your flier, a Linvala with either trigger is a better deal than Dromoka, which will gain you no life as it doesn't have hexproof or haste. And Linvala with no triggers is still a one-for-one trade with the removal spell.
If they don't have removal, why are we comparing the cards anyway? They don't have removal and you just played a big flier so the game is probably won. It's a good idea to just assume they have removal, which is why both Dromoka and Linvala are kind of weak. Linvala seems to me slightly better in this analysis, in the right deck.
The real problem with Linvala isn't Dromoka, it's the hexproof options at 5, 6, and 7 -- Dragonlord Ojutai, Silumgar, the Drifting Death, and Sphinx of the Final Word. The first one says "I don't care that I tapped out, because I'm going to untap before you get a chance to target my dude, so if you're not holding Rending Volley you're screwed." and the other two simply say "my only threats are hexproof, so all your targeted removal is blanked. You're screwed."
Personally -- and this is very matchup-dependent of course -- but if your opponent doesn't have a lot of flying threats I really prefer Oblivion Sower. It doesn't have hexproof, but it gives you mana to protect it as a cast trigger, which is not bad, and if it gets countered/removed, you've gained the ability to outplay your opponent on the following turn, and advantage that gets bigger the more Sowers you attempt to stick.
That's my problem with it. It's legendary, mythic, it's casting cost is higher and requires more colored mana.
Thragtusk didn't care what your life total or board state looked like when it entered/left the battlefield. This is a decidedly worse card.
And the people saying stuff along the lines of there being other cards that can make this playable.....yeah yeah, and gray ogre is playable if it's enchanted with eldrazi conscription
You're not understanding this. You have two points, that are both either misguided or wrong. First Thragtusk was unquestionably the best card in Standard for a year. The fact that this card isn't as good as Thragtusk (which it is not) doesn't really mean anything, since there's a huge gap between Thragtusk, and cards that are good in standard. The fact that this card is not as good as Thragtusk does not mean this card is not good. Your comparison doesn't really hold any water because it is meaningless.
Also are no cards that are needed to make this card good, its just not universally good in every white deck. You need to be playing a certain kind of deck (read: not an aggressive deck) against another certain kind of deck (read: not a slower control deck) in order for her to be good. That's it. If its not good in these match ups that means you're winning. You don't have to play any cards to make it good, only it only works in specific strategies (like almost every other magic card). What you're saying is basically "Linvala sucks because you need to be playing the kind of decks its good in for it to be good."
Why would a deck want to play this over Dragonlord Dromoka? She has an inferior body and the token clause will be a rare trigger, which makes a 3/3....in a standard where a 3/3 is pretty insignificant. If Dromoka connnects ONCE she's already on par with the lifegain trigger of Linvala IF she manages to even get it.
6cc is too slow against atarka red, and her 5 toughness means she dies in combat to a lot of the fliers in standard right now. If you're speculating about a post rotation standard...how is she going to compete with Sire of Stagnation and such?
Why play siege rhino if you can play woodland wondered, if it connects it does more damage. The answer is, because it doesn't need to connect to do anything.
Siege Rhino doesn't have two instances of 'if' in it's rules text. You have to be two creatures behind when you cast Linvala to get the token.
99% of the time Linvala is just going to be a 5/5 flier for 6, that sometimes gains you life. She'll eat the same removal Dromoka will but at least they have to do it on their turn.
Dromoka blocks just about everything in the format, can't be countered, and can't be removed with a spell on your turn. If they have no removal, attacking into Dromoka is a really bad deal because of the lifelink. Linvala on the other hand doesn't have lifelink so that 5 life that you may have got is a one time deal.
You're just wrong, and not thinking. I feel like you ignored my post that explained why you're wrong, but I'm going to try again.
Did you play with the card Timely Reinforcements? You're really overstating how difficult to turn this card on is. 75%+ of the time its all three of the modes. You're playing the control role. Your opponent will be playing creatures. You will have removal. How do you make sure this card is on? You just leave two of their creatures alive. That's all you have to do. Meaning you get to control this. You get make sure that your opponent is left with two creatures. Your opponent, on the other hand can chose to not play all their creatures, but if your opponent has more creatures and you have more life, then you're probably winning, and it doesn't matter than you don't get to cash this card in for full value (or you can just wait until you can cast it for some value). In games its more nuanced than this, obviously, but the point is that this card is good when your opponent tries to carry out their gameplan. I don't know about whatever games you play, but my opponents play creatures and attack me in more than 1% of my games.
Once you understand that, the comparison with Dromoka does not work the way you want it to, so I'm going to ignore that. (Ie lifelink on Dromoka hardly matters, since its usually dead before it can attack, and if Linvala dies you get to keep the 5 life and the angel you're getting).
You're not understanding this. You have two points, that are both either misguided or wrong. First Thragtusk was unquestionably the best card in Standard for a year. The fact that this card isn't as good as Thragtusk (which it is not) doesn't really mean anything, since there's a huge gap between Thragtusk, and cards that are good in standard. The fact that this card is not as good as Thragtusk does not mean this card is not good. Your comparison doesn't really hold any water because it is meaningless.
Also are no cards that are needed to make this card good, its just not universally good in every white deck. You need to be playing a certain kind of deck (read: not an aggressive deck) against another certain kind of deck (read: not a slower control deck) in order for her to be good. That's it. If its not good in these match ups that means you're winning. You don't have to play any cards to make it good, only it only works in specific strategies (like almost every other magic card). What you're saying is basically "Linvala sucks because you need to be playing the kind of decks its good in for it to be good."
Why would a deck want to play this over Dragonlord Dromoka? She has an inferior body and the token clause will be a rare trigger, which makes a 3/3....in a standard where a 3/3 is pretty insignificant. If Dromoka connnects ONCE she's already on par with the lifegain trigger of Linvala IF she manages to even get it.
6cc is too slow against atarka red, and her 5 toughness means she dies in combat to a lot of the fliers in standard right now. If you're speculating about a post rotation standard...how is she going to compete with Sire of Stagnation and such?
Why play siege rhino if you can play woodland wondered, if it connects it does more damage. The answer is, because it doesn't need to connect to do anything.
Siege Rhino doesn't have two instances of 'if' in it's rules text. You have to be two creatures behind when you cast Linvala to get the token.
99% of the time Linvala is just going to be a 5/5 flier for 6, that sometimes gains you life. She'll eat the same removal Dromoka will but at least they have to do it on their turn.
Dromoka blocks just about everything in the format, can't be countered, and can't be removed with a spell on your turn. If they have no removal, attacking into Dromoka is a really bad deal because of the lifelink. Linvala on the other hand doesn't have lifelink so that 5 life that you may have got is a one time deal.
You're just wrong, and not thinking. I feel like you ignored my post that explained why you're wrong, but I'm going to try again.
Did you play with the card Timely Reinforcements? You're really overstating how difficult to turn this card on is. 75%+ of the time its all three of the modes. You're playing the control role. Your opponent will be playing creatures. You will have removal. How do you make sure this card is on? You just leave two of their creatures alive. That's all you have to do. Meaning you get to control this. You get make sure that your opponent is left with two creatures. Your opponent, on the other hand can chose to not play all their creatures, but if your opponent has more creatures and you have more life, then you're probably winning, and it doesn't matter than you don't get to cash this card in for full value (or you can just wait until you can cast it for some value). In games its more nuanced than this, obviously, but the point is that this card is good when your opponent tries to carry out their gameplan. I don't know about whatever games you play, but my opponents play creatures and attack me in more than 1% of my games.
Once you understand that, the comparison with Dromoka does not work the way you want it to, so I'm going to ignore that. (Ie lifelink on Dromoka hardly matters, since its usually dead before it can attack, and if Linvala dies you get to keep the 5 life and the angel you're getting).
This card is not a Timely Reinforcements, and the Standard format is not that of a bygone era.
She is good, but stating that this is as easy to turn on as Timely Reinforcements is simply not accurate.
You want to be sweeping the board before Linvala hits play anyways. The life gain is just too late at 6 mana, a good portion of the time - so you are sweeping on 5 more often than not. Which is her biggest problem... she counts herself. If you are sweeping to stay alive, and they tap out for a midange threat, you are not going to get a 3/3 and this is likely to be the situation pretty often. If you are playing her in a midrange deck, you are making her even worse because she is counting your other creatures, and you are usually blocking the damage or dealing damage to your opponent so you are not going to be netting life if you are ahead in damage dealt to the opponent.
She is actually a lot harder to get all the modes out of for the simply fact that she exists on a horrendous place on the curve. Timely did not have that problem at all, because it came BEFORE you swept and was cheap enough to keep you alive so you can stabilize. Her virtue of coming down after you should already be stable, means you are going to net a lot less value out of her.
That being said, she is still a good card, and I also think people who think she is going to be vanilla most of the time - are simply incorrect, but they are right saying that it is an exaggeration that she is going to almost always be total value.
You're just wrong, and not thinking. I feel like you ignored my post that explained why you're wrong, but I'm going to try again.
Did you play with the card Timely Reinforcements? You're really overstating how difficult to turn this card on is. 75%+ of the time its all three of the modes. You're playing the control role. Your opponent will be playing creatures. You will have removal. How do you make sure this card is on? You just leave two of their creatures alive. That's all you have to do. Meaning you get to control this. You get make sure that your opponent is left with two creatures. Your opponent, on the other hand can chose to not play all their creatures, but if your opponent has more creatures and you have more life, then you're probably winning, and it doesn't matter than you don't get to cash this card in for full value (or you can just wait until you can cast it for some value). In games its more nuanced than this, obviously, but the point is that this card is good when your opponent tries to carry out their gameplan. I don't know about whatever games you play, but my opponents play creatures and attack me in more than 1% of my games.
Once you understand that, the comparison with Dromoka does not work the way you want it to, so I'm going to ignore that. (Ie lifelink on Dromoka hardly matters, since its usually dead before it can attack, and if Linvala dies you get to keep the 5 life and the angel you're getting).
This is six mana, timely is 3. 3 is a heck of a lot more competitive than 6.
Timely puts 3 bodies on the field, and it's clause isn't triggered when a creature enters the battlefield. Timely tokens trigger if they have one more creature than you, with Linvala you have to two behind to get the single token.
Dromoka is in the same standard right now, and is also six mana. It is also a creature. It is also a card that can gain life. Dromoka attacks and blocks favorably with almost everything in standard, and even then it's not a dominant card in the format.
While there will be some situations where that 3/3 token might make a difference, if you even get the token at all, this is a standard where a 3/3 body isn't very relevant. Anafenza, Siege Rhino, Wingmate Roc, all the dragons
Heck even Linvala herself isn't all that impressive at 5/5. She only trades with some creatures and Siege Rhino with a domoka's command ends her pretty quick, where Dragonlord Dromoka is safe in that instance.
If you always got the life and always got the token, it would be a much better creature. As this is, it's inferior in most situations compared to Dragonlord Dromoka. Most of the other feedback in this thread has agreed with the sentiment that this card is poopy. It's crap because it's conditional, and because it's 6 mana.
6 mana is too slow to save you when you're getting beat down by mono red, and that's exactly where you would want an effect like this. Against a midrange deck her and her token's bodies aren't very impressive, and her triggers don't mean as much. Against control you don't get a token after she goes to the graveyard like thragtusk so she's outclassed by the hexproof dragons there.
So where would you want this creature? Against something with small, slow creatures? I could see the appeal if the megagame had a lot of Gray Ogres.
Everything about the card screams "speed bump", but at 6cc she's too slow to be relevant.
If you're thinking that she'll be good post rotation....yeah I'm sure her 5/5 body is gonna be real good against eldrazi.
I agree that the fact that she counts herself is a major downside, and therefore you're right she isn't as easy to turn on as Timely, but I think you're overstating that flaw. Also, there's no reason to think you have to sweep the board before you play this card, and that the board cannot be partially-stabilized with, some removal spells and some large blockers like Siege Rhino or Tasigur.
I agree that the fact that she counts herself is a major downside, and therefore you're right she isn't as easy to turn on as Timely, but I think you're overstating that flaw. Also, there's no reason to think you have to sweep the board before you play this card, and that the board cannot be partially-stabilized with, some removal spells and some large blockers like Siege Rhino or Tasigur.
Why do I feel like you do not understand the state of removal in Standard?
Your blockers also are working against her abilities, especially Siege Rhino.
She is Standard playable, I do not doubt that. But you are not going to be wanting to play her in any deck that is running creatures and you are likely to find that she is not better than just running Esper Dragons without her, nor is the removal of a control deck going to be optimal enough to not have to sweep on turns 4-6.
Comparing her to thragtusk is fine especially since her upside is hyper relevant, although it does not toally make up for thrags upsides.
Compating her to timely is fine as they both have similar roles, although she is still quite poor vs. Hyper aggro
Dromoka is obviously strickly stronger but she is better vs. Removal and not all decks that could play her play green. I want to tie this second point into her not bejng better than the esper dragons, which may be true. This is why I feel she could have a decent place in a mardu strategy. She can easily replace wingmate, which would allow for more of a control deck instead of a midrange deck. On the other hand she does clash with chandra though their purposes are slightly different, but nearly the same. Id love to play both but you cant play tok many 6 drops, maybe 2 chandra, 1 linvala.
Unfortunately, linvala doesnt seem to mesh well with another new control powerhouse, the black vampire legend. Kalitas or something.
Overall she is quite a powerhouse, similar to old format powerhouses while at the same time her own unique card. There are a few cards that clash with her deck synergy but overall i believe she will definitely be played.
I agree that the fact that she counts herself is a major downside, and therefore you're right she isn't as easy to turn on as Timely, but I think you're overstating that flaw. Also, there's no reason to think you have to sweep the board before you play this card, and that the board cannot be partially-stabilized with, some removal spells and some large blockers like Siege Rhino or Tasigur.
I dunno, if you've got access to those guys this maybe isn't the best thing to be doing for six mana? At that point Wingmate Roc is a lot easier to turn on.
If you don't have another blocker and you're trying to stabilize with removal, you probably need a sweeper because you're probably facing down a bunch of puny threats that trade favorably with your removal, Abbot of Keral Keep or Hordeling Outburst for example. That's when you need to wipe the board or die, and that's when you'll get the life but not the token. Which gets you a threat and a stops the red player from topdecking an Exquisite Firecraft, I suppose, but it feels a little desperate.
Now when Rhino and Wingmate and Outburst (oh my!) are gone I could see this, but I feel like the deck that wants this is going to also want to run blue, and therefore have better options.
This is six mana, timely is 3. 3 is a heck of a lot more competitive than 6.
Timely puts 3 bodies on the field, and it's clause isn't triggered when a creature enters the battlefield. Timely tokens trigger if they have one more creature than you, with Linvala you have to two behind to get the single token.
You miss the point. The point was Timely is very easy to enable, as is this card.
Dromoka is in the same standard right now, and is also six mana. It is also a creature. It is also a card that can gain life. Dromoka attacks and blocks favorably with almost everything in standard, and even then it's not a dominant card in the format.
Dromoka still dies to all of standards removal spells without doing anything against most decks.
While there will be some situations where that 3/3 token might make a difference, if you even get the token at all, this is a standard where a 3/3 body isn't very relevant. Anafenza, Siege Rhino, Wingmate Roc, all the dragons
Heck even Linvala herself isn't all that impressive at 5/5. She only trades with some creatures and Siege Rhino with a domoka's command ends her pretty quick, where Dragonlord Dromoka is safe in that instance.
That's really not super relevant or true. A 3/3 body is small but its still something that your opponent has to spend effort or cards or mana to deal with. 5/5 is good body size since the most relevant threats in the format are 4/5 or smaller.
If you always got the life and always got the token, it would be a much better creature. As this is, it's inferior in most situations compared to Dragonlord Dromoka. Most of the other feedback in this thread has agreed with the sentiment that this card is poopy. It's crap because it's conditional, and because it's 6 mana.
Most people on this website are bad at magic. See every older spoiler sets threads. I explained how easy this card is to turn on. You ignored that. Go back and read it again.
6 mana is too slow to save you when you're getting beat down by mono red, and that's exactly where you would want an effect like this. Against a midrange deck her and her token's bodies aren't very impressive, and her triggers don't mean as much. Against control you don't get a token after she goes to the graveyard like thragtusk so she's outclassed by the hexproof dragons there.
I said it was bad against both of those decks. Dromoka is just as bad as well.
So where would you want this creature? Against something with small, slow creatures? I could see the appeal if the megagame had a lot of Gray Ogres.
Everything about the card screams "speed bump", but at 6cc she's too slow to be relevant.
If you're thinking that she'll be good post rotation....yeah I'm sure her 5/5 body is gonna be real good against eldrazi.
Everything between Atarka Red and Esper Dragons. Like I said before. Those decks are: Jeskai Black, Abzan Aggro, Eldrazi Ramp, any Token Variant, GW Megamorph, any Aristocrats Rally deck, Bring to Light etc.
I don't know how 8 power of flying is a speed bump but you do you pal.
Arguing with me without really reading what I wrote is stupid.
I dunno, if you've got access to those guys this maybe isn't the best thing to be doing for six mana? At that point Wingmate Roc is a lot easier to turn on.
I'm not quite sure, but I believe Linvala is easier to turn on for more pay off. You may be right.
If you don't have another blocker and you're trying to stabilize with removal, you probably need a sweeper because you're probably facing down a bunch of puny threats that trade favorably with your removal, Abbot of Keral Keep or Hordeling Outburst for example. That's when you need to wipe the board or die, and that's when you'll get the life but not the token. Which gets you a threat and a stops the red player from topdecking an Exquisite Firecraft, I suppose, but it feels a little desperate.
This cards a little slow against mono red. Like I had said.
Why do I feel like you do not understand the state of removal in Standard?
No idea.
Your blockers also are working against her abilities, especially Siege Rhino.
Superficially, yes. If I have one blocker holding back two threats its not really working against Linvala, is it?
She is Standard playable, I do not doubt that. But you are not going to be wanting to play her in any deck that is running creatures and you are likely to find that she is not better than just running Esper Dragons without her, nor is the removal of a control deck going to be optimal enough to not have to sweep on turns 4-6.
"Less creatures than your opponent" is not no creatures. You do not have to run no creatures for this card to be good.
We're talking turn 6 here. You're going to die to a pumped Abbot before either creature comes down. The appropriate response to that would be Ultimate Price or Surge of Righteousness, not a beefy flier. In most other situations, where your opponent actually has good removal, gaining life once is better than gaining life nonce. Dromoka doesn't have haste or hexproof so she probably won't connect.
Do evaluations change now that there is a flicker effect in Standard?
This makes her "create an Angel" ability even harder to trigger, now requiring the opponent to have three creatures out. Also - and I hate to use the term "exponentially" with ignorance - each flicker of Linvala will make it exponentially more unlikely that either ability will trigger. She works against herself when trying to combo with the white Eldrazi.
This makes her "create an Angel" ability even harder to trigger, now requiring the opponent to have three creatures out. Also - and I hate to use the term "exponentially" with ignorance - each flicker of Linvala will make it exponentially more unlikely that either ability will trigger. She works against herself when trying to combo with the white Eldrazi.
I'm just pointing out that earlier people were specifically saying that there were no flicker effects in Standard.
Yeah, that's right... the discussion of flicker effects barely pertains to Linvala.
I don't know if that's necessarily true, depending on what you're doing early game... as Eldrazi Displacer is in the same color, it's reasonable to assume you could work on fending your opponent off during the early turns, then drop some sort of soft lock between the the Displacer and Linvala as long as you can keep mana open... you hit me too hard I gain life back, you try to go wide I make a token. This strategy is a little fragile because the Displacer can't remove itself, but it's an option.
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Siege Rhino doesn't have two instances of 'if' in it's rules text. You have to be two creatures behind when you cast Linvala to get the token.
99% of the time Linvala is just going to be a 5/5 flier for 6, that sometimes gains you life. She'll eat the same removal Dromoka will but at least they have to do it on their turn.
Dromoka blocks just about everything in the format, can't be countered, and can't be removed with a spell on your turn. If they have no removal, attacking into Dromoka is a really bad deal because of the lifelink. Linvala on the other hand doesn't have lifelink so that 5 life that you may have got is a one time deal.
99% of the time is a lot % of the time. I imagine in a lot of builds it probably won't be very hard to get the lifegain trigger. The creature trigger is a bit trickier, which is a problem. But it will be servicable in the right deck.
I also think you're overvaluing Dromoka's "your opponent can't play spells on your turn" clause. In situations like the ones we're considering it's flavor text. There's not much difference between removing your threat on your turn or their turn if their removal is more mana-efficient, and when you're considering a 6-drop, it's going to be. If they have removal, they're probably going to spend 1-5 mana on it (plenty of options ranging from Murderous Cut to Crux of Fate) play another spell in a lot of cases, and continue the game having gained some tempo. So if they're going to remove your flier, a Linvala with either trigger is a better deal than Dromoka, which will gain you no life as it doesn't have hexproof or haste. And Linvala with no triggers is still a one-for-one trade with the removal spell.
If they don't have removal, why are we comparing the cards anyway? They don't have removal and you just played a big flier so the game is probably won. It's a good idea to just assume they have removal, which is why both Dromoka and Linvala are kind of weak. Linvala seems to me slightly better in this analysis, in the right deck.
The real problem with Linvala isn't Dromoka, it's the hexproof options at 5, 6, and 7 -- Dragonlord Ojutai, Silumgar, the Drifting Death, and Sphinx of the Final Word. The first one says "I don't care that I tapped out, because I'm going to untap before you get a chance to target my dude, so if you're not holding Rending Volley you're screwed." and the other two simply say "my only threats are hexproof, so all your targeted removal is blanked. You're screwed."
Personally -- and this is very matchup-dependent of course -- but if your opponent doesn't have a lot of flying threats I really prefer Oblivion Sower. It doesn't have hexproof, but it gives you mana to protect it as a cast trigger, which is not bad, and if it gets countered/removed, you've gained the ability to outplay your opponent on the following turn, and advantage that gets bigger the more Sowers you attempt to stick.
You're just wrong, and not thinking. I feel like you ignored my post that explained why you're wrong, but I'm going to try again.
Did you play with the card Timely Reinforcements? You're really overstating how difficult to turn this card on is. 75%+ of the time its all three of the modes. You're playing the control role. Your opponent will be playing creatures. You will have removal. How do you make sure this card is on? You just leave two of their creatures alive. That's all you have to do. Meaning you get to control this. You get make sure that your opponent is left with two creatures. Your opponent, on the other hand can chose to not play all their creatures, but if your opponent has more creatures and you have more life, then you're probably winning, and it doesn't matter than you don't get to cash this card in for full value (or you can just wait until you can cast it for some value). In games its more nuanced than this, obviously, but the point is that this card is good when your opponent tries to carry out their gameplan. I don't know about whatever games you play, but my opponents play creatures and attack me in more than 1% of my games.
Once you understand that, the comparison with Dromoka does not work the way you want it to, so I'm going to ignore that. (Ie lifelink on Dromoka hardly matters, since its usually dead before it can attack, and if Linvala dies you get to keep the 5 life and the angel you're getting).
This card is not a Timely Reinforcements, and the Standard format is not that of a bygone era.
She is good, but stating that this is as easy to turn on as Timely Reinforcements is simply not accurate.
You want to be sweeping the board before Linvala hits play anyways. The life gain is just too late at 6 mana, a good portion of the time - so you are sweeping on 5 more often than not. Which is her biggest problem... she counts herself. If you are sweeping to stay alive, and they tap out for a midange threat, you are not going to get a 3/3 and this is likely to be the situation pretty often. If you are playing her in a midrange deck, you are making her even worse because she is counting your other creatures, and you are usually blocking the damage or dealing damage to your opponent so you are not going to be netting life if you are ahead in damage dealt to the opponent.
She is actually a lot harder to get all the modes out of for the simply fact that she exists on a horrendous place on the curve. Timely did not have that problem at all, because it came BEFORE you swept and was cheap enough to keep you alive so you can stabilize. Her virtue of coming down after you should already be stable, means you are going to net a lot less value out of her.
That being said, she is still a good card, and I also think people who think she is going to be vanilla most of the time - are simply incorrect, but they are right saying that it is an exaggeration that she is going to almost always be total value.
This is six mana, timely is 3. 3 is a heck of a lot more competitive than 6.
Timely puts 3 bodies on the field, and it's clause isn't triggered when a creature enters the battlefield. Timely tokens trigger if they have one more creature than you, with Linvala you have to two behind to get the single token.
Dromoka is in the same standard right now, and is also six mana. It is also a creature. It is also a card that can gain life. Dromoka attacks and blocks favorably with almost everything in standard, and even then it's not a dominant card in the format.
While there will be some situations where that 3/3 token might make a difference, if you even get the token at all, this is a standard where a 3/3 body isn't very relevant. Anafenza, Siege Rhino, Wingmate Roc, all the dragons
Heck even Linvala herself isn't all that impressive at 5/5. She only trades with some creatures and Siege Rhino with a domoka's command ends her pretty quick, where Dragonlord Dromoka is safe in that instance.
If you always got the life and always got the token, it would be a much better creature. As this is, it's inferior in most situations compared to Dragonlord Dromoka. Most of the other feedback in this thread has agreed with the sentiment that this card is poopy. It's crap because it's conditional, and because it's 6 mana.
6 mana is too slow to save you when you're getting beat down by mono red, and that's exactly where you would want an effect like this. Against a midrange deck her and her token's bodies aren't very impressive, and her triggers don't mean as much. Against control you don't get a token after she goes to the graveyard like thragtusk so she's outclassed by the hexproof dragons there.
So where would you want this creature? Against something with small, slow creatures? I could see the appeal if the megagame had a lot of Gray Ogres.
Everything about the card screams "speed bump", but at 6cc she's too slow to be relevant.
If you're thinking that she'll be good post rotation....yeah I'm sure her 5/5 body is gonna be real good against eldrazi.
Why do I feel like you do not understand the state of removal in Standard?
Your blockers also are working against her abilities, especially Siege Rhino.
She is Standard playable, I do not doubt that. But you are not going to be wanting to play her in any deck that is running creatures and you are likely to find that she is not better than just running Esper Dragons without her, nor is the removal of a control deck going to be optimal enough to not have to sweep on turns 4-6.
Compating her to timely is fine as they both have similar roles, although she is still quite poor vs. Hyper aggro
Dromoka is obviously strickly stronger but she is better vs. Removal and not all decks that could play her play green. I want to tie this second point into her not bejng better than the esper dragons, which may be true. This is why I feel she could have a decent place in a mardu strategy. She can easily replace wingmate, which would allow for more of a control deck instead of a midrange deck. On the other hand she does clash with chandra though their purposes are slightly different, but nearly the same. Id love to play both but you cant play tok many 6 drops, maybe 2 chandra, 1 linvala.
Unfortunately, linvala doesnt seem to mesh well with another new control powerhouse, the black vampire legend. Kalitas or something.
Overall she is quite a powerhouse, similar to old format powerhouses while at the same time her own unique card. There are a few cards that clash with her deck synergy but overall i believe she will definitely be played.
I dunno, if you've got access to those guys this maybe isn't the best thing to be doing for six mana? At that point Wingmate Roc is a lot easier to turn on.
If you don't have another blocker and you're trying to stabilize with removal, you probably need a sweeper because you're probably facing down a bunch of puny threats that trade favorably with your removal, Abbot of Keral Keep or Hordeling Outburst for example. That's when you need to wipe the board or die, and that's when you'll get the life but not the token. Which gets you a threat and a stops the red player from topdecking an Exquisite Firecraft, I suppose, but it feels a little desperate.
Now when Rhino and Wingmate and Outburst (oh my!) are gone I could see this, but I feel like the deck that wants this is going to also want to run blue, and therefore have better options.
You miss the point. The point was Timely is very easy to enable, as is this card.
Dromoka still dies to all of standards removal spells without doing anything against most decks.
That's really not super relevant or true. A 3/3 body is small but its still something that your opponent has to spend effort or cards or mana to deal with. 5/5 is good body size since the most relevant threats in the format are 4/5 or smaller.
Most people on this website are bad at magic. See every older spoiler sets threads. I explained how easy this card is to turn on. You ignored that. Go back and read it again.
I said it was bad against both of those decks. Dromoka is just as bad as well.
Everything between Atarka Red and Esper Dragons. Like I said before. Those decks are: Jeskai Black, Abzan Aggro, Eldrazi Ramp, any Token Variant, GW Megamorph, any Aristocrats Rally deck, Bring to Light etc.
I don't know how 8 power of flying is a speed bump but you do you pal.
Arguing with me without really reading what I wrote is stupid.
I'm not quite sure, but I believe Linvala is easier to turn on for more pay off. You may be right.
This cards a little slow against mono red. Like I had said.
No idea.
Superficially, yes. If I have one blocker holding back two threats its not really working against Linvala, is it?
"Less creatures than your opponent" is not no creatures. You do not have to run no creatures for this card to be good.
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Standard playable after rotation is never a thing. There will always be something better.
This is the kind of mythic that people love to want to be good but simple fact is that high casting cost cards need to be game ending and this isn't.
We're talking turn 6 here. You're going to die to a pumped Abbot before either creature comes down. The appropriate response to that would be Ultimate Price or Surge of Righteousness, not a beefy flier. In most other situations, where your opponent actually has good removal, gaining life once is better than gaining life nonce. Dromoka doesn't have haste or hexproof so she probably won't connect.
This makes her "create an Angel" ability even harder to trigger, now requiring the opponent to have three creatures out. Also - and I hate to use the term "exponentially" with ignorance - each flicker of Linvala will make it exponentially more unlikely that either ability will trigger. She works against herself when trying to combo with the white Eldrazi.
I'm just pointing out that earlier people were specifically saying that there were no flicker effects in Standard.
I don't know if that's necessarily true, depending on what you're doing early game... as Eldrazi Displacer is in the same color, it's reasonable to assume you could work on fending your opponent off during the early turns, then drop some sort of soft lock between the the Displacer and Linvala as long as you can keep mana open... you hit me too hard I gain life back, you try to go wide I make a token. This strategy is a little fragile because the Displacer can't remove itself, but it's an option.