Unpopular opinion: BFZ was a really fine set flavor-wise and wasn't even that horrible playability-wise (standard aside, it spawned a new Modern deck, and is a great draft set) and Expeditions are a really cool, flavorful thing to do.
pls don't hurt ;-;
How do you feel the worldbuilding and storyline held up compared to other sets? BFZ had the obstacle of being a returning plane, and thus it was incumbent on wizards to create new thematics to make it interesting instead of retreading old ground. They did a good job with this on mirrodin for example with the scars -> NPH block, as they took the old mirrodin plane and completely changed it with the phyrexian war. However, they already did that same storyline even before that, on zendikar already- zendikar and worldwake established the plane, eldrazi tore it apart in RotE.
What did BFZ accomplish in flavor / thematics / worldbuilding that wasn't already done originally in RotE? It seems to me BFZ would have been a fine set flavorwise if we hadn't already had rise. But now it just feels like here we are, back in rise-lite. OGW on the other hand appears to be developing upon it quite dramatically with the plane being reduced to a barren moonscape, the sort of dramatic final act we saw in NPH. And that could turn out to be great flavor.
If you followed the zendikar superblock, it would look like this:
Zendikar: Heres an awesome new plane with a vibrant mana rich world steeped in indiana jones style spelunking in ancient caves filled with priceless treasures and cunning traps and ominous references to greater powers
Worldwake: *Does diddly to build upon zendikar*
Rise of the Eldrazi: Your plane has been invaded from the inside out by lovecraftian monsters with noodly appendages that annihilate everything in there way, oh the huge manatees
Battle for Zendikar: *Does diddly to build upon Rise of the Eldrazi*
Oath of the Gatewatch: Plane now resembles downtown aleppo, warped and twisted by moon logic as the eldrazi collectively teabag the corpse of zendikar. We get to see what abominations exist in the lovecraftian dimension once they call it home
Unpopular opinion: BFZ was a really fine set flavor-wise and wasn't even that horrible playability-wise (standard aside, it spawned a new Modern deck, and is a great draft set) and Expeditions are a really cool, flavorful thing to do.
pls don't hurt ;-;
How do you feel the worldbuilding and storyline held up compared to other sets? BFZ had the obstacle of being a returning plane, and thus it was incumbent on wizards to create new thematics to make it interesting instead of retreading old ground. They did a good job with this on mirrodin for example with the scars -> NPH block, as they took the old mirrodin plane and completely changed it with the phyrexian war. However, they already did that same storyline even before that, on zendikar already- zendikar and worldwake established the plane, eldrazi tore it apart in RotE.
What did BFZ accomplish in flavor / thematics / worldbuilding that wasn't already done originally in RotE? It seems to me BFZ would have been a fine set flavorwise if we hadn't already had rise. But now it just feels like here we are, back in rise-lite. OGW on the other hand appears to be developing upon it quite dramatically with the plane being reduced to a barren moonscape, the sort of dramatic final act we saw in NPH. And that could turn out to be great flavor.
If you followed the zendikar superblock, it would look like this:
Zendikar: Heres an awesome new plane with a vibrant mana rich world steeped in indiana jones style spelunking in ancient caves filled with priceless treasures and cunning traps and ominous references to greater powers
Worldwake: *Does diddly to build upon zendikar*
Rise of the Eldrazi: Your plane has been invaded from the inside out by lovecraftian monsters with noodly appendages that annihilate everything in there way, oh the huge manatees
Battle for Zendikar: *Does diddly to build upon Rise of the Eldrazi*
Oath of the Gatewatch: Plane now resembles downtown aleppo, warped and twisted by moon logic as the eldrazi collectively teabag the corpse of zendikar. We get to see what abominations exist in the lovecraftian dimension once they call it home
Zendikar is already mostly barren wastelands in BFZ. OGW is just continuing that. I think they did ok with the worldbuilding. You don't need to change anything terribly drastic with the world for a return so long as everything there makes sense. They made more allies than there used to be to show the Zendikari banding together even more than before, there were at least as many Eldrazi as RoE (maybe more?) and the artwork this time around clearly depicted they were winning. In RoE it was these giant monsters roaming around lush forests and all of those gorgeous lively locations that Zendikar was known for; in BFZ it's the Zendikari roaming around the barren wastes left by the Eldrazi clamoring to find areas that haven't been devastated yet. Now in Oath it looks like it's going to start focusing more on Kozilek's warped, distorted wastelands rather than Ulamog's barren, powdery wastes, which is a nice change of pace.
Having expensive cards is good for the game. WotC has been trying to find balance between accessibility and value with stuff like Modern Masters and it's an on-going process.
Again, you can have expensive cards without pricing people out of formats.
I will give WotC credit for feeling this out with Modern Masters, but the fact that they obviously know there's a problem makes their missteps all the more frustrating.
You think Eternal formats being expensive to get into are a problem because you fail to appreciate the hard work, time and money people put into making decks for those formats: I doubt someone who has put thousands of dollars towards a Legacy deck would be thrilled to hear that a bunch of his cards halved in value because the netdeckers on MTGS asked WotC to make it so.
Y'know what they'd be even less thrilled about? Not having anyone to play with because their format died. Just ask a Vintage player.
When it comes to any recreational activity, you have people joining everyday and people leaving everyday. In order to survive, you must have at least as many people joining as leaving. But if the barrier to entry is to high, then that'll stem the flow of new blood coming in, and it will eventually die.
And this is the crux of the issue: the player who has put in all that time, work and money into actually building the deck matters more to everyone than those who complain they can't do it.
It matters more to everyone?
Sure, okay. In that case, speaking as someone who has sunk hundreds of dollars into his collection, and is still playing and improving decks he first built over a decade ago: WotC needs to reprint more staples.
You're not talking to someone complaining about how he can't get into an expensive format. You're talking to the experienced player on the other side of the fence, who wants more people to play with. I'm the guy with a playset of Damnations, two foil, even, who stands to lose money if WotC reprinted it. And I would be ******* thrilled, because several people I play with need some copies.
Everyone talks about collectors losing money if WotC reprints the wrong cards, but what about my money? What about the hundreds I spent? I didn't spend all that money on some crappy pieces of cardboard, I spent it on a fun experience to be had with friends, and I want a return on that investment, dammit.
I think they can complain when the chance to get one is so low that it might as well not even exist. Much like keeping Goyf at mythic in Modern Masters, they do this to make it a lottery and give people the hope that they open something truly amazing, especially when most of BFZ and MM2 are awful and pretty bad, respectively. OGW looks better than BFZ at least, which will help the feeling when you don't get an expedition, or anything decent, but you can't really call these a reprint. That's like saying they reprinted Damnation as a judge foil and it would help the price of the card.
They can and will complain no matter what. If the hard to obtain cards are too good, it is a lottery. If they aren't good enough, the set sucks. If the good cards get printed a bit too much, the value was destroyed. If the good cards are too hard to get, then your budget becomes Wizards' problem.
Except it is only a lottery when there is nothing else in the set that makes you go "Meh, wasn't <expensive card>, but at least it is useful" which is what BFZ really lacked. If there were many other decent cards it would be much less of a lottery, which only annotates when you win it all or win nothing and having other decent cards would have greatly helped that. MM2 had a similar issue, sure Goyf was the main prize, but there was some other decent stuff, although there really should have been more for it's price increase.
Also, anyone complaining that the price of something dropped doesn't have any reason to complain, they chose to buy that card, but all cards have a chance to be reprinted, even those in the reserved list. As iron clad as some seem to think it is there is always that chance of them abolishing it, or even banning the cards on the reserved list in Legacy, which would also drop almost all of those cards prices down considerably.
Will there always be expensive cards? Yeah, that will happen, but when they have the ability to reprint some cards, but don't and print them as some super rare thing, then that is where a large problem can come from. They shouldn't be too afraid of reprints, they learned from Chronicles and still learning from Modern Masters, even Goyfs price is barely unaffected by multiple printings.
So you think the players would be happier if cards were both high in price per pack, but low in price overall. I guess it would feel more "fair", but also a lot more boring. Personally, I don't have a problem with some cards costing more money, because I don't feel that I am entitled to every card by virtue of desire alone. If I want a Wasteland expedition, then God Bless the free market; I can exchange time and effort for currency and trade that for one. THE SYSTEM WORKS!
I don't either, nor did I say that sets should be high in price, but the cards low in cost. Look at BFZ, there is only two real cards worth much of anything, because the other 95% of the set is utter garbage, if the set was strong then you wouldn't be able to find everything but two cards for under $5. Which is great for budget players, but that only shows how awful this set is.
Origins has exactly two cards more at over $5. And when you're getting a $1 or more card in every single pack in the land slot, I'm okay with mediocre high end value.
Origins is a great set to look at worth of cards and usefulness of them, that is what I am talking about. Yes, everyone wants to open a Jace, but I'm sure his price will fall sooner or later once he rotates in Standard, but at least when you don't open him you have a chance at some truly useful stuff, not to mention pricey right now, which is a good thing, not hoping you only open Gideon and/or expeditions to make get a booster worth it. Now are boosters a bad choice if you want specific cards? Oh hell yeah, but no one will want to open packs outside of limited if there is nothing to be gained and that is the issue with the lottery of BFZ, and to a lesser degree MM2.
Jace, Hangarback, and casual goodies does not really make origins much different than BFZ, except in BFZ, every now and then you can open something awesome that isn't Jace.
Don't throw words like entitled, because at no time did I say I was entitled to a damn thing.
Believe it or not, people rarely actually realize that they feel entitled to things. I never claimed you said you feel entitled. But you certainly act like it.
No one wants to be entitled to anything except for Wizards to try harder when it comes to reprints, because they have been failing at reprints spectacularly for a long time. You are not going to be able to afford anything, but when decks are only getting more expensive it should be Wizards job to help people even play the game at even the most casual level or lowest level of tournaments.
Sucks to want. Your financial problems are not anybody's fault but your own.
These foils are neat, but that's about it, we know this does nothing to the price of the cards themselves, and the only reason they put them in this set is to try and make this feel like Zendikar the first time around. Why not just reprint them normally in some sort of supplemental product to help the players play the game? Will Wasteland go down to $5? No, because it is amazing and people want two playsets, but there is no reason why it has to be so hard for Wizards to throw the players a bone on cards like these and not make them one a box. If the cards cost less that means more people will play the game as they won't be priced out of it, even Standard is getting too much for folks and Modern, at its cheapest, is still $150 for a budget deck.
I, for one, am very glad that these are not some cheap reprint that everyone has. I kinda like having the pimp expeditions in my landfall Commander deck, and have no problem getting a nicer, more premium version. If you want cheap cards, look for the ones with black set symbols.
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As someone who exclusively plays Legacy and Cube (and has everything he could ask for in that regard) I would LOVE if Wizards reprinted a bunch of staples so that I could play with more people. Since that is clearly not a realistic scenario (and hasn't been for a long time) would it kill Wizards to to put useful commons and uncommons in their sets? Back in my day value wasn't just in the rares (as they were just as bad as they are now) but the commons were also ok too. Sets like New Phyrexia, Innisrad, Lorwyn, MM1, and OG Zendikar had commons that were ok to open. Even if you opened a bad rare you didn't want to kill yourself because you got some cool commons like Spell Pierce and Lightning Bolt as well. The last few sets now I could skim over the set list and frown because the commons are lackluster. What happened?
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"Listen closely as your radio plays
a program of a slightly different strain.
Tonight my listeners, a new power will rise,
unleashed upon you all in this musical disguise.
Your cities turn to ash, for the broadcast is cursed.
The signal is peaking and can't be reversed.
If you choose my children, you can try to hide.
But I strongly suggest you run for your life."
-The Sermon 2, The Creepshow
I don't see Wasteland going down much, if at all. The players who like to pimp their decks might chase them, but there is also a Judge foil version if I remember right. Normal legacy players will still pay top dollar for them, as the expeditions haven't appeared to affect the normal printings of the other lands.
You think Eternal formats being expensive to get into are a problem because you fail to appreciate the hard work, time and money people put into making decks for those formats: I doubt someone who has put thousands of dollars towards a Legacy deck would be thrilled to hear that a bunch of his cards halved in value because the netdeckers on MTGS asked WotC to make it so.
And this is the crux of the issue: the player who has put in all that time, work and money into actually building the deck matters more to everyone than those who complain they can't do it.
Those cards will also lose value eventually when Legacy has no one to play with and people can find proxy tournaments for that format, just like Vintage. People also will lose money on a deck if it ever gets banned, just take a look at when Birthing Pod decks crumbled thanks to the decks namesake card being banned. People lost money then and not because of a reprint.
Secondly, not much longer than a year ago we just had 5 cards that cost $60-$120 drop to $8-$12, those being the allied fetch lands, but did people complain? A very small minority did, but even people with three or four playsets of them loved that they were being reprinted and were more available so they could play with more people in formats like Legacy and Modern. Very few minded that they lost hundreds of dollars because 5 cards saw reprint, and there was a vast majority that praised Wizards for it.
If people want to spend thousands of dollars on their pimped out Legacy deck then they can go right ahead, but they should realize that at any moment any card not on the reserved list can easily be reprinted and they could lose hundreds off of all those playsets. Wasteland and Force of Will, which command $60 and $100 price tags and could easily see reprint, and they shouldn't ever complain about it when they know that there is a risk because they could be reprinted at almost any time. Frankly, the only thing they should complain about is why they thought it was impossible for them to be reprinted.
Believe it or not, people rarely actually realize that they feel entitled to things. I never claimed you said you feel entitled. But you certainly act like it.
How is it entitled to want the company that makes something you enjoy to do better? That would be like saying, if you were a fan of Ford trucks or the brand, that someone is entitled because they want the company to make their cars with higher gas mileage. What is the problem with wanting to see the company succeed more by allowing more people to enjoy the game for less?
Sucks to want. Your financial problems are not anybody's fault but your own.
Yeah, I have the inability to afford a lot, but I am not saying this so I alone can afford it, but so that way the entire player base can enjoy the game even more. It baffles me why some have this idea that the game has to be expensive. Yes, some cards will be expensive, that is just the way a collectible works, but when the company can actually do something about a problem like this then it is befuddling as to why they don't.
Also, stop trying to make this about me, when I have not said I want any of this so that way I can do it. The fact you keep doing so is a little creepy.
I, for one, am very glad that these are not some cheap reprint that everyone has. I kinda like having the pimp expeditions in my landfall Commander deck, and have no problem getting a nicer, more premium version. If you want cheap cards, look for the ones with black set symbols.
Wow, talk down much? I have no issue with expensive cards, but when you print the same card three times in a row as a promo it only shows they do not intend to try and fix a very glaring issue with the game right now. Expensive cards will happen and I know I will never own a play set of Gauntlet of Might or Black Lotus, nor will I be able to get a playset of Jace, the Mind Sculptor or even a play set of Ugin, these are understandable things, and I'm not sure in any way did I say that cards being expensive is bad, but the game as a whole being this expensive is a definite problem. I remember even in SoM/INN standard you could play $50 decks and have fun at FNM with a decent shot at getting packs or store credit, but now you can't even do that, and that is where the issue is, when you are unable to play at even the lowest of tournament levels.
Why price your customers out of a hobby like that? It doesn't help them in the end to do so.
How is it entitled to want the company that makes something you enjoy to do better? That would be like saying, if you were a fan of Ford trucks or the brand, that someone is entitled because they want the company to make their cars with higher gas mileage. What is the problem with wanting to see the company succeed more by allowing more people to enjoy the game for less?
It is entitled when you think that a company that has broken their own industry defining records 10 years in a row isn't already doing that. You can enjoy the game for less. Why shouldn't I be allowed to enjoy it for more.
Yeah, I have the inability to afford a lot, but I am not saying this so I alone can afford it, but so that way the entire player base can enjoy the game even more. It baffles me why some have this idea that the game has to be expensive. Yes, some cards will be expensive, that is just the way a collectible works, but when the company can actually do something about a problem like this then it is befuddling as to why they don't.
The entire player base can enjoy the game as is. I see players building decks with what gets left behind at drafts and such. They have not once ever purchased cards. If you want the high end cards to be cheaper, it is because you (and others like you) want the game to be cheaper for you to play. Because you could always have draft scraps for free if you didn't just keep increasing what you want.
Also, stop trying to make this about me, when I have not said I want any of this so that way I can do it. The fact you keep doing so is a little creepy.
If it is creepy that while having a conversation with you, in which you complain about how you want your prices for your hobby to be cheaper for you, that I make some of my responses seem aimed at you, then you're probably not familiar with conversations in general. Until you show me something proving that you are speaking on behalf of the community with their democratically selected consent, I am going to assume that your unsourced opinions are more about you than the community. If that creeps you out, so be it.
Wow, talk down much?
Yes.
I have no issue with expensive cards, but when you print the same card three times in a row as a promo it only shows they do not intend to try and fix a very glaring issue with the game right now.
A glaring issue that is...?
Expensive cards will happen and I know I will never own a play set of Gauntlet of Might or Black Lotus, nor will I be able to get a playset of Jace, the Mind Sculptor or even a play set of Ugin, these are understandable things, and I'm not sure in any way did I say that cards being expensive is bad, but the game as a whole being this expensive is a definite problem.
How so?
I remember even in SoM/INN standard you could play $50 decks and have fun at FNM with a decent shot at getting packs or store credit, but now you can't even do that, and that is where the issue is, when you are unable to play at even the lowest of tournament levels.
You can still do that. If you were playing then, likely, as with many long term Magic players, your standards went up, and now , you are blaming Wizards. People still bring $50 bad decks to FNMs and try and earn store credit. If you feel like you need a netdeck, you've changed; not the game.
Why price your customers out of a hobby like that? It doesn't help them in the end to do so.
Nobody is being priced out. Maybe of winning Worlds, but the number of people who play Magic and the number of people who win high level Magic tournaments are very different numbers.
Again, if a card is out of your budget, don't blame Wizards. They don't decide how good of a job you decide to settle for.
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Soooo guys, how about we focus on the spoilers instead of the finances behind the thing? And try to do so in a slightly more friendly tone towards one another? If these back-and-forth wars keep happening, perhaps a lock would be best for this thread.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
You think Eternal formats being expensive to get into are a problem because you fail to appreciate the hard work, time and money people put into making decks for those formats: I doubt someone who has put thousands of dollars towards a Legacy deck would be thrilled to hear that a bunch of his cards halved in value because the netdeckers on MTGS asked WotC to make it so.
Actually, most of the people who play Eternal formats would be thrilled or at worst indifferent if their cards' prices were all cut in half because it would mean it would be easier for other people to enter the format(s) and thus they'd have more people playing it.
You think Eternal formats being expensive to get into are a problem because you fail to appreciate the hard work, time and money people put into making decks for those formats: I doubt someone who has put thousands of dollars towards a Legacy deck would be thrilled to hear that a bunch of his cards halved in value because the netdeckers on MTGS asked WotC to make it so.
Actually, most of the people who play Eternal formats would be thrilled or at worst indifferent if their cards' prices were all cut in half because it would mean it would be easier for other people to enter the format(s) and thus they'd have more people playing it.
LOL you're so right I'm really not sure who is he referring to other than probably himself. There's a limit to expensive cards. At the same time, you don't want too cheap a format or cards. I believe the crazy pricing has put a toll on many people already; Magic prices have reached their peak and the utility isn't there anymore.
Look at SCG cutting of legacy formats. It's not a coincidence that inaccessible formats are gonna be hard to reach out. MM is going at the right direction but there's so much room to grow. I believe most people prefer MM1 to MM2 and that's not a coincidence. A mixture of good selections plus draftability CAN co-exist. BFZ should have been the same, like its predecessor KtK.
Does anybody think this will lower the price of regular wastelands even a little bit? Considering most legacy players will be swapping out their old wastelands for this one?
Most legacy players might not have a format to play anyways. It's sad but true.
Does anybody think this will lower the price of regular wastelands even a little bit? Considering most legacy players will be swapping out their old wastelands for this one?
Most legacy players might not have a format to play anyways. It's sad but true.
Yeah, the reserved list makes things a bit rough. Even some of the cards that aren't on the reserve list just violate their current design philosophies, so they wouldn't get reprinted in anything outside of a Legacy Masters type thing, but I'm not sure the audience for that is really there like it is for MM, especially because they wouldn't be able to print the most expensive stuff even then. Around here, the only way to play legacy is to go to the major events in the big cities nearby, but even those are dying out pretty hard right now. They've shown time and again that they don't want to abolish the reserved list, and as long as that's the case legacy and vintage will never be able to thrive like modern or standard do.
The Expedition Wasteland might lower the price of a regular Wasteland, but I doubt it and even if it does it won't be by much. It has a better chance of lowering the price of the older promos than the regular version, but even that I wouldn't bet on.
You think Eternal formats being expensive to get into are a problem because you fail to appreciate the hard work, time and money people put into making decks for those formats: I doubt someone who has put thousands of dollars towards a Legacy deck would be thrilled to hear that a bunch of his cards halved in value because the netdeckers on MTGS asked WotC to make it so.
Actually, most of the people who play Eternal formats would be thrilled or at worst indifferent if their cards' prices were all cut in half because it would mean it would be easier for other people to enter the format(s) and thus they'd have more people playing it.
Ever the same things.
A poster explained us the truth: we are addicted with this product. If the pusher sell us garbage, we will buy anyway. Sadly it's the truth. AT hasbro they didn't need at all to find new clients until we buy with confidence a wasteland for a 4000$, realize?
Speak for yourself. I haven't bought Magic product in over a year. And for the past four, I've exclusively bought Commander series products. Many of my friends are the same; we rely exclusively on trading to get what we want, because there just isn't enough incentive to actually spend money on this hobby. And during our game nights, my friends and I no longer play Magic all night long, instead settling for a single game before moving on to stuff like Superfight, Sentinels of the Multiverse, or Shadows Over Camelot.
I'm not going to claim that my playgroup is the norm, but it is symptomatic of Magic not being the best it could be.
They are constantly modifying their approach and while you could certainly accuse them of being too conservative (not enough MM13, not enough quality in MM15) they certainly have their ears to the ground.
The problem is far too many MTGS users think they are the ground when in fact we mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Hard to pay attention to a user base which complains about everything and mostly netdecks.
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Speak for yourself. I haven't bought Magic product in over a year. And for the past four, I've exclusively bought Commander series products. Many of my friends are the same; we rely exclusively on trading to get what we want, because there just isn't enough incentive to actually spend money on this hobby. And during our game nights, my friends and I no longer play Magic all night long, instead settling for a single game before moving on to stuff like Superfight, Sentinels of the Multiverse, or Shadows Over Camelot.
I'm not going to claim that my playgroup is the norm, but it is symptomatic of Magic not being the best it could be.
I wonder why WotC doesn't just take the valuable insight from the MTGSalvation marketing experts? Seems like a no-brainer, really.
Clearly it's because they are perfect saints who can do no wrong, so paying attention to criticism is a waste of their time. I mean duh.
How do you know that the quality has been sliding if you don't buy the product? Paying attention to criticism is one thing, but when you are criticizing something you aren't going to buy anyways, your input isn't very valuable. The valuable criticism they get is with player dollars, and that metric has said that every set they've released in the last ten years has been one of the best sets ever made.
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Presumably because it was "only" leaked previously, but now we have official confirmation. Additionally we have better pictures of all the expeditions.
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How do you feel the worldbuilding and storyline held up compared to other sets? BFZ had the obstacle of being a returning plane, and thus it was incumbent on wizards to create new thematics to make it interesting instead of retreading old ground. They did a good job with this on mirrodin for example with the scars -> NPH block, as they took the old mirrodin plane and completely changed it with the phyrexian war. However, they already did that same storyline even before that, on zendikar already- zendikar and worldwake established the plane, eldrazi tore it apart in RotE.
What did BFZ accomplish in flavor / thematics / worldbuilding that wasn't already done originally in RotE? It seems to me BFZ would have been a fine set flavorwise if we hadn't already had rise. But now it just feels like here we are, back in rise-lite. OGW on the other hand appears to be developing upon it quite dramatically with the plane being reduced to a barren moonscape, the sort of dramatic final act we saw in NPH. And that could turn out to be great flavor.
If you followed the zendikar superblock, it would look like this:
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Zendikar is already mostly barren wastelands in BFZ. OGW is just continuing that. I think they did ok with the worldbuilding. You don't need to change anything terribly drastic with the world for a return so long as everything there makes sense. They made more allies than there used to be to show the Zendikari banding together even more than before, there were at least as many Eldrazi as RoE (maybe more?) and the artwork this time around clearly depicted they were winning. In RoE it was these giant monsters roaming around lush forests and all of those gorgeous lively locations that Zendikar was known for; in BFZ it's the Zendikari roaming around the barren wastes left by the Eldrazi clamoring to find areas that haven't been devastated yet. Now in Oath it looks like it's going to start focusing more on Kozilek's warped, distorted wastelands rather than Ulamog's barren, powdery wastes, which is a nice change of pace.
That's debatable.
Again, you can have expensive cards without pricing people out of formats.
I will give WotC credit for feeling this out with Modern Masters, but the fact that they obviously know there's a problem makes their missteps all the more frustrating.
Y'know what they'd be even less thrilled about? Not having anyone to play with because their format died. Just ask a Vintage player.
When it comes to any recreational activity, you have people joining everyday and people leaving everyday. In order to survive, you must have at least as many people joining as leaving. But if the barrier to entry is to high, then that'll stem the flow of new blood coming in, and it will eventually die.
It matters more to everyone?
Sure, okay. In that case, speaking as someone who has sunk hundreds of dollars into his collection, and is still playing and improving decks he first built over a decade ago: WotC needs to reprint more staples.
You're not talking to someone complaining about how he can't get into an expensive format. You're talking to the experienced player on the other side of the fence, who wants more people to play with. I'm the guy with a playset of Damnations, two foil, even, who stands to lose money if WotC reprinted it. And I would be ******* thrilled, because several people I play with need some copies.
Everyone talks about collectors losing money if WotC reprints the wrong cards, but what about my money? What about the hundreds I spent? I didn't spend all that money on some crappy pieces of cardboard, I spent it on a fun experience to be had with friends, and I want a return on that investment, dammit.
Origins has exactly two cards more at over $5. And when you're getting a $1 or more card in every single pack in the land slot, I'm okay with mediocre high end value.
Jace, Hangarback, and casual goodies does not really make origins much different than BFZ, except in BFZ, every now and then you can open something awesome that isn't Jace.
Believe it or not, people rarely actually realize that they feel entitled to things. I never claimed you said you feel entitled. But you certainly act like it.
Sucks to want. Your financial problems are not anybody's fault but your own.
I, for one, am very glad that these are not some cheap reprint that everyone has. I kinda like having the pimp expeditions in my landfall Commander deck, and have no problem getting a nicer, more premium version. If you want cheap cards, look for the ones with black set symbols.
a program of a slightly different strain.
Tonight my listeners, a new power will rise,
unleashed upon you all in this musical disguise.
Your cities turn to ash, for the broadcast is cursed.
The signal is peaking and can't be reversed.
If you choose my children, you can try to hide.
But I strongly suggest you run for your life."
-The Sermon 2, The Creepshow
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Secondly, not much longer than a year ago we just had 5 cards that cost $60-$120 drop to $8-$12, those being the allied fetch lands, but did people complain? A very small minority did, but even people with three or four playsets of them loved that they were being reprinted and were more available so they could play with more people in formats like Legacy and Modern. Very few minded that they lost hundreds of dollars because 5 cards saw reprint, and there was a vast majority that praised Wizards for it.
If people want to spend thousands of dollars on their pimped out Legacy deck then they can go right ahead, but they should realize that at any moment any card not on the reserved list can easily be reprinted and they could lose hundreds off of all those playsets. Wasteland and Force of Will, which command $60 and $100 price tags and could easily see reprint, and they shouldn't ever complain about it when they know that there is a risk because they could be reprinted at almost any time. Frankly, the only thing they should complain about is why they thought it was impossible for them to be reprinted.
How is it entitled to want the company that makes something you enjoy to do better? That would be like saying, if you were a fan of Ford trucks or the brand, that someone is entitled because they want the company to make their cars with higher gas mileage. What is the problem with wanting to see the company succeed more by allowing more people to enjoy the game for less?
Yeah, I have the inability to afford a lot, but I am not saying this so I alone can afford it, but so that way the entire player base can enjoy the game even more. It baffles me why some have this idea that the game has to be expensive. Yes, some cards will be expensive, that is just the way a collectible works, but when the company can actually do something about a problem like this then it is befuddling as to why they don't.
Also, stop trying to make this about me, when I have not said I want any of this so that way I can do it. The fact you keep doing so is a little creepy.
Wow, talk down much? I have no issue with expensive cards, but when you print the same card three times in a row as a promo it only shows they do not intend to try and fix a very glaring issue with the game right now. Expensive cards will happen and I know I will never own a play set of Gauntlet of Might or Black Lotus, nor will I be able to get a playset of Jace, the Mind Sculptor or even a play set of Ugin, these are understandable things, and I'm not sure in any way did I say that cards being expensive is bad, but the game as a whole being this expensive is a definite problem. I remember even in SoM/INN standard you could play $50 decks and have fun at FNM with a decent shot at getting packs or store credit, but now you can't even do that, and that is where the issue is, when you are unable to play at even the lowest of tournament levels.
Why price your customers out of a hobby like that? It doesn't help them in the end to do so.
It is entitled when you think that a company that has broken their own industry defining records 10 years in a row isn't already doing that. You can enjoy the game for less. Why shouldn't I be allowed to enjoy it for more.
The entire player base can enjoy the game as is. I see players building decks with what gets left behind at drafts and such. They have not once ever purchased cards. If you want the high end cards to be cheaper, it is because you (and others like you) want the game to be cheaper for you to play. Because you could always have draft scraps for free if you didn't just keep increasing what you want.
If it is creepy that while having a conversation with you, in which you complain about how you want your prices for your hobby to be cheaper for you, that I make some of my responses seem aimed at you, then you're probably not familiar with conversations in general. Until you show me something proving that you are speaking on behalf of the community with their democratically selected consent, I am going to assume that your unsourced opinions are more about you than the community. If that creeps you out, so be it.
Yes.
A glaring issue that is...?
How so?
You can still do that. If you were playing then, likely, as with many long term Magic players, your standards went up, and now , you are blaming Wizards. People still bring $50 bad decks to FNMs and try and earn store credit. If you feel like you need a netdeck, you've changed; not the game.
Nobody is being priced out. Maybe of winning Worlds, but the number of people who play Magic and the number of people who win high level Magic tournaments are very different numbers.
Again, if a card is out of your budget, don't blame Wizards. They don't decide how good of a job you decide to settle for.
Look at SCG cutting of legacy formats. It's not a coincidence that inaccessible formats are gonna be hard to reach out. MM is going at the right direction but there's so much room to grow. I believe most people prefer MM1 to MM2 and that's not a coincidence. A mixture of good selections plus draftability CAN co-exist. BFZ should have been the same, like its predecessor KtK.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Yeah, the reserved list makes things a bit rough. Even some of the cards that aren't on the reserve list just violate their current design philosophies, so they wouldn't get reprinted in anything outside of a Legacy Masters type thing, but I'm not sure the audience for that is really there like it is for MM, especially because they wouldn't be able to print the most expensive stuff even then. Around here, the only way to play legacy is to go to the major events in the big cities nearby, but even those are dying out pretty hard right now. They've shown time and again that they don't want to abolish the reserved list, and as long as that's the case legacy and vintage will never be able to thrive like modern or standard do.
The Expedition Wasteland might lower the price of a regular Wasteland, but I doubt it and even if it does it won't be by much. It has a better chance of lowering the price of the older promos than the regular version, but even that I wouldn't bet on.
Love how the WR is a vertical plains
Dude stop trolling. This thread spoilers ofc.
I also agree with him. It´s crazy how people can get with dicussion like these.
Speak for yourself. I haven't bought Magic product in over a year. And for the past four, I've exclusively bought Commander series products. Many of my friends are the same; we rely exclusively on trading to get what we want, because there just isn't enough incentive to actually spend money on this hobby. And during our game nights, my friends and I no longer play Magic all night long, instead settling for a single game before moving on to stuff like Superfight, Sentinels of the Multiverse, or Shadows Over Camelot.
I'm not going to claim that my playgroup is the norm, but it is symptomatic of Magic not being the best it could be.
Clearly it's because they are perfect saints who can do no wrong, so paying attention to criticism is a waste of their time. I mean duh.
The problem is far too many MTGS users think they are the ground when in fact we mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Hard to pay attention to a user base which complains about everything and mostly netdecks.
How do you know that the quality has been sliding if you don't buy the product? Paying attention to criticism is one thing, but when you are criticizing something you aren't going to buy anyways, your input isn't very valuable. The valuable criticism they get is with player dollars, and that metric has said that every set they've released in the last ten years has been one of the best sets ever made.