As of right now I think all the commons and uncommons that will be spoiled this week will have better designs than the rares and mythics.
Not a bad thing though.
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Level 1 Judge
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU "Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR "The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
While this isn't a Standard concern, I will say for EDH exile is pretty much always required. Having played Sheoldred into Eternal Witness into Time Warp for an infinite loop on several occasions (or bouncing Mnemonic Wall for the same effect) I can say it really doesn't matter how expensive the spell is... it's pretty much a win.
I don't care that you, someone with experience and skill for a format I don't play, make a sensible argument in favour of a clause I, a netdecker, find offensive
I ain't netdecking any of your decks so why don't you go back to wherever you came from?
Well yes; there is that approach. I think that's completely justified; as is the "if you aren't going to play this game for money then GTFO" line of thinking. Sadly, sometimes WoTC does look at the full potential (including *gasp* kitchen table applications) of a card before making development decisions and they seem to have decided that infinite loops are unfun for enough applications that this trumps the competitive edge. How dare they?
While this isn't a Standard concern, I will say for EDH exile is pretty much always required. Having played Sheoldred into Eternal Witness into Time Warp for an infinite loop on several occasions (or bouncing Mnemonic Wall for the same effect) I can say it really doesn't matter how expensive the spell is... it's pretty much a win.
I don't care that you, someone with experience and skill for a format I don't play, make a sensible argument in favour of a clause I, a netdecker, find offensive
I ain't netdecking any of your decks so why don't you go back to wherever you came from?
Well yes; there is that approach. I think that's completely justified; as is the "if you aren't going to play this game for money then GTFO" line of thinking. Sadly, sometimes WoTC does look at the full potential (including *gasp* kitchen table applications) of a card before making development decisions and they seem to have decided that infinite loops are unfun for enough applications that this trumps the competitive edge. How dare they?
I think you make a good point. Spikes aren't the only ones that play this game.
Even if my Narset EDH is glass cannon and has he chance to whiff. It stills scares people, and I don't think I have ever heard anyone go, "OOO, Narset!! This is gonna be awesome!" without being facetious. R&D is doing their best to appeal to a very broad spectrum of players. Even if this isn't quite what I am looking for, they been doing this for 20 years so they have to have some idea of what they are doing.
Taking extra turns could be kind of cool if they made a bit of a game out of it. Lighthouse Chronologist is a cool casual card, because there's this little bit of tension between "I don't want to blow removal on this pathetic creature that will never go off" and "If he actually makes it go off I am in so much trouble".
Part the Waterveil is very obviously completely phoned in. "What's the spell mechanic in this set again? Awaken? Okay, sure, break out the stapler. I got me a Time Walk here I want to put some holes in." And the sad thing is they took a pretty iconic place in Zendikar that did something similar to this effect in a much more unique way, and stripped it of all interesting-ness. Art that doesn't convey much relationship, no flavor text, no indication of what happened here to make this an important spot, a completely generic-ified extra turn effect...
This could have been a huge home run and instead it's one of the blandest cards we've seen. And we've seen some pretty bland stuff this time around. Imagine something like
The Collapse of Magosi 4UU
Sorcery
All permanents are Islands until end of turn.
4UU, Exile The Collapse of Magosi from your graveyard: Take an extra turn after this one.
Now that's a mythic (imo)! Obviously needs to be tuned for balance, but this is just one of like 6 ideas I had in the few minutes I've been reading this thread. It can't possibly be that hard to develop something that isn't the most boring possible version of a *callback* card.
Uh, what balance on that card? Balance would imply it actually do something. That first part is pretty weird and useless unless you're running some weird combo deck that utilizes creatures and spells to "storm out." You would see just as much complaining about that as you see about the card now.
Well, it's functionally an uncounterable extra turn spell, for one thing. Also, it's unique in the sense that nothing like it has ever been done, and it depicts a possible actual story moment (giant flood from the destruction of a massive lake). Aside from the strength of the card (which is irrelevant to lots of people), there would be people happy to try doing something in a different way, and people who are happy to see flavor bleeding on to cards.
I'm actually pretty okay with this card as a Time Warp variant. Temporal Trespass doesn't get much attention because Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time draw more cards than the Trespass does and by the time you get to turns ready for delving, pretty much the card draw is the only relevant aspect of the card.
If BFZ really does slow down the format, 9 Mana for draw 1 and a 6/6 that can attack twice might be even better than Delving to pay 3 for Trespass and than leaving mana open for nothing. But honestly, I doubt this card will see much (if any) play anyway, Cruise is still around anyway.
It's worth noting that this curves off of Ojutai quite nicely. If we're in Esper and have already fired a Duress or Transgress the Mind to ensure or at least suggest that Ojutai is safe to attack, swinging on turn 6 and then playing this post-combat is basically a game-ender.
I can easily see a Standard environment where this as a one-of in the right control deck is "safe" at worst and devastating at best.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
Based on the power level and innovative design of these mythics, they could have called this set The Grand Turdnament
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These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
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Yeah they're mostly pushing Awaken in White and Blue so far.
No, there really are only white and blue awaken cards. Or did you mean that the cards are pushed? I think they all are great for control decks so far.
Ruinous Path was one of the first Awaken spells they spoiled.
Right... got confused by a MaRo post where he stated that they can't put all land mechanics in green so they focussed awaken in UW. Thought that meant only UW and forgot about Ruinous Path.
I don't get how people think that the Awaken does nothing and is just tacked on.
You can potentially swing with a 6/6 twice before your opponent's next turn.
To swing twice with a 6/6 awakened land you need 10 mana to cast this. I think a lot of people are forgetting that the awaken ability doesn't untap the land it awakens, so you will always need an untapped land in addition to the mana to pay the awaken cost to swing with a creature the same turn. To put it into perspective, would you rather cast Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger or pay the awaken cost of Part the Waterveil?
I'd personally choose Ulamog because he gives me a double Scour from Existence even if he's countered.
I don't get how people think that the Awaken does nothing and is just tacked on.
You can potentially swing with a 6/6 twice before your opponent's next turn.
To swing twice with a 6/6 awakened land you need 10 mana to cast this. I think a lot of people are forgetting that the awaken ability doesn't untap the land it awakens, so you will always need an untapped land in addition to the mana to pay the awaken cost to swing with a creature the same turn. To put it into perspective, would you rather cast Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger or pay the awaken cost of Part the Waterveil?
I'd personally choose Ulamog because he gives me a double Scour from Existence even if he's countered.
Ulamog is certainly stronger than this Awakened. The main mitigating factor is that this can ALSO be cast for six, and any card that can generate an extra turn has virtually no opportunity cost assuming it isn't countered and you actually get enough mana to cast it.
Eh, Ulamog is probably still just better, though. Not sure why I'm so christmaslandy on this card. I really like the idea of a double Ojutai hit on turn 6 with the option to haymaker the board on ten mana, but it's probably just not good enough.
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Formerly Angrypossum over at the now-defunct WotC forums.
Sigh, is the exile clause really necessary for standard?
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Quote from Wolfman about lack of Conspiracy spoilers-
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
Taking extra turns could be kind of cool if they made a bit of a game out of it. Lighthouse Chronologist is a cool casual card, because there's this little bit of tension between "I don't want to blow removal on this pathetic creature that will never go off" and "If he actually makes it go off I am in so much trouble".
Part the Waterveil is very obviously completely phoned in. "What's the spell mechanic in this set again? Awaken? Okay, sure, break out the stapler. I got me a Time Walk here I want to put some holes in." And the sad thing is they took a pretty iconic place in Zendikar that did something similar to this effect in a much more unique way, and stripped it of all interesting-ness. Art that doesn't convey much relationship, no flavor text, no indication of what happened here to make this an important spot, a completely generic-ified extra turn effect...
This could have been a huge home run and instead it's one of the blandest cards we've seen. And we've seen some pretty bland stuff this time around. Imagine something like
The Collapse of Magosi 4UU
Sorcery
All permanents are Islands until end of turn.
4UU, Exile The Collapse of Magosi from your graveyard: Take an extra turn after this one.
Now that's a mythic (imo)! Obviously needs to be tuned for balance, but this is just one of like 6 ideas I had in the few minutes I've been reading this thread. It can't possibly be that hard to develop something that isn't the most boring possible version of a *callback* card.
Uh, what balance on that card? Balance would imply it actually do something. That first part is pretty weird and useless unless you're running some weird combo deck that utilizes creatures and spells to "storm out." You would see just as much complaining about that as you see about the card now.
Well, it's functionally an uncounterable extra turn spell, for one thing. Also, it's unique in the sense that nothing like it has ever been done, and it depicts a possible actual story moment (giant flood from the destruction of a massive lake). Aside from the strength of the card (which is irrelevant to lots of people), there would be people happy to try doing something in a different way, and people who are happy to see flavor bleeding on to cards.
If you're going for flavor, then it falls apart at the "Cast from the graveyard get an extra turn." Are you picking up the pieces of Magosi to use it like it used to be? And I'll admit, the flavor of "Take an extra turn" land is weird to begin with, so bringing it back is technically fine in the context of "This is Magosi, it does extra turns because it's Magosi." but in the context of casting it from the graveyard...
If you're going for unique mechanics, it falls apart at the "Everything becomes an island" because that's mechanically (and honestly flavorfully) strange for creatures, artifacts, planeswalkers, etc., and does very little in the game. And we've seen a similar effect before on Stormtide Leviathan, which is crazy flavorful while being mechanically sound. I don't honestly care about the strength of the card, but I do feel they need to do something.
The flavor of Part the Waterveil is fine. Either an Eldrazi is making use of the effect of the original Magosi as part of devouring it, or Magosi is getting up and fighting, using its own ability to give it time to get up and fight itself.
When you make a mechanic, you start with the base things that people expect. If it can alter spells, they want altered spells. They want Removal, Card Draw, Extra Turns, Burn, Giant Growths, etc. How many times have we seen "Deal 3 Damage" with any number of mechanics?
Here's a list:
And those are just the ones I found with specifically 3 damage dealt, without attempting to repeat any mechanics or list anything "vanilla."
Of course the first time they use a mechanic, make a mechanic, it's going to be using similar effects as in the past. That's our metric. That gives us familiarity when the mechanic is adding something new. It lets previewers go "Oh, I don't know how strong X Mechanic is, but I do know what that spell does and how strong it is."
When mechanics get a chance to return, that's when we can see the really weird stuff, in higher quantities.
I like how I can use this to awaken Magosi, the Waterveil... and actually find a use for the damned thing (well, one that doesn't involve the need for a Stone-Seeder Hierophant or something, anyway).
Sigh, is the exile clause really necessary for standard?
No, but it is necessary for EDH and Casual players, particularly for multi-player game players where it's broken anyway, but not madly broken as it would be without the Exile clause. Because there have been so many cards printed in the past 20+ years that absurdly abuse cards like this, the Exile is now necessary on the "take an extra turn" cards that have even high casting costs such as Time Sieve.
Unplayable in Standard until Ugin's Nexus rotates.
People are moaning and complaining about how expensive this is, usually because they are Standard players. This isn't a card meant for the Standard format. (The quote above is merely for illustrative effect).
Let me make this perfectly clear: Wizards doesn't print every card with Standard format in mind, and not every player is a Standard player. This card is a great example of this - it is designed for people like me who abuse cards in ways inconceivable to most Standard players because I have access to thousands of cards they do not.
6 Mana for an extra turn in Casual multi-player is valid, especially since this is blue. That means the chances of the player having a Cancel or two on standby to ensure the spell goes off is likely. Furthermore, the Exile clause is annoying (and now unfortunately necessary) but not insurmountable, especially in BFZ with so many spells pulling cards out of exile. [Set synergy, anyone?] BTW, hasn't anyone noticed that the one nearly perfect maximum security prison for spells now has a back door? Exile, before this set, was where Wizards could count on sending something that became too powerful and broken: simply print a card that sends (enter too broken card name here) to exile. Exile was the place that voided "dying" effects. Black is going to have a field day here.
For those curious enough, Part the Waterveil is broken already with Panoptic Mirror, and at 6 CMC Part the Waterveil seems perfectly designed for Panoptic Mirror. The turn after you play Panoptic Mirror, in response to its upkeep trigger, tap six mana OF ANY COLOR, and drop this beauty on it - you don't even need U. If your opponents don't have instant or flash artifact removal or spell counters, that usually ends the game. Notice that "exile" has no impact on this combo. None whatsoever.
For some players, insta-win combos are no fun. However, for some players they are. My group enjoys them and loves foiling them, which is one reason our decks tend to have over 100 cards in them - some approaching 150 - each filled with many different combos and answers to nearly every scenario. It isn't uncommon for five or six turns to pass before anyone makes an offensive move, so yeah, the cost on this card isn't too outrageous.
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This could very easily go into blue turns in modern, not sure if the deck needs more time walks or not however.
Not a bad thing though.
Level 2 in progress...
UUU Merfolk UUU
"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
-Empress Galina
UBR Cruel Control UBR
"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
This is certainly what I'm hoping for.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Well yes; there is that approach. I think that's completely justified; as is the "if you aren't going to play this game for money then GTFO" line of thinking. Sadly, sometimes WoTC does look at the full potential (including *gasp* kitchen table applications) of a card before making development decisions and they seem to have decided that infinite loops are unfun for enough applications that this trumps the competitive edge. How dare they?
I think you make a good point. Spikes aren't the only ones that play this game.
Even if my Narset EDH is glass cannon and has he chance to whiff. It stills scares people, and I don't think I have ever heard anyone go, "OOO, Narset!! This is gonna be awesome!" without being facetious. R&D is doing their best to appeal to a very broad spectrum of players. Even if this isn't quite what I am looking for, they been doing this for 20 years so they have to have some idea of what they are doing.
PS: I also can't afford Capture of Jingzhou or Temporal Manipulation
EDH Decks
Thanks To DarkNightCavalier For the Sig!!!
Well, it's functionally an uncounterable extra turn spell, for one thing. Also, it's unique in the sense that nothing like it has ever been done, and it depicts a possible actual story moment (giant flood from the destruction of a massive lake). Aside from the strength of the card (which is irrelevant to lots of people), there would be people happy to try doing something in a different way, and people who are happy to see flavor bleeding on to cards.
If BFZ really does slow down the format, 9 Mana for draw 1 and a 6/6 that can attack twice might be even better than Delving to pay 3 for Trespass and than leaving mana open for nothing. But honestly, I doubt this card will see much (if any) play anyway, Cruise is still around anyway.
I can easily see a Standard environment where this as a one-of in the right control deck is "safe" at worst and devastating at best.
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Right... got confused by a MaRo post where he stated that they can't put all land mechanics in green so they focussed awaken in UW. Thought that meant only UW and forgot about Ruinous Path.
You can potentially swing with a 6/6 twice before your opponent's next turn.
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I am pretty sure we will see red/green awaken cards. C'mon, red/green elemental theme is a huge thing, especially on Zendikar.
To swing twice with a 6/6 awakened land you need 10 mana to cast this. I think a lot of people are forgetting that the awaken ability doesn't untap the land it awakens, so you will always need an untapped land in addition to the mana to pay the awaken cost to swing with a creature the same turn. To put it into perspective, would you rather cast Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger or pay the awaken cost of Part the Waterveil?
I'd personally choose Ulamog because he gives me a double Scour from Existence even if he's countered.
Ulamog is certainly stronger than this Awakened. The main mitigating factor is that this can ALSO be cast for six, and any card that can generate an extra turn has virtually no opportunity cost assuming it isn't countered and you actually get enough mana to cast it.
Eh, Ulamog is probably still just better, though. Not sure why I'm so christmaslandy on this card. I really like the idea of a double Ojutai hit on turn 6 with the option to haymaker the board on ten mana, but it's probably just not good enough.
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
Jace would err the answer towards the "yes" column. Narset may have a say, too.
If you're going for flavor, then it falls apart at the "Cast from the graveyard get an extra turn." Are you picking up the pieces of Magosi to use it like it used to be? And I'll admit, the flavor of "Take an extra turn" land is weird to begin with, so bringing it back is technically fine in the context of "This is Magosi, it does extra turns because it's Magosi." but in the context of casting it from the graveyard...
If you're going for unique mechanics, it falls apart at the "Everything becomes an island" because that's mechanically (and honestly flavorfully) strange for creatures, artifacts, planeswalkers, etc., and does very little in the game. And we've seen a similar effect before on Stormtide Leviathan, which is crazy flavorful while being mechanically sound. I don't honestly care about the strength of the card, but I do feel they need to do something.
The flavor of Part the Waterveil is fine. Either an Eldrazi is making use of the effect of the original Magosi as part of devouring it, or Magosi is getting up and fighting, using its own ability to give it time to get up and fight itself.
Additionally, one thing I don't think the thread is taking into account is how often people expect remakes of X card using X mechanic. We've had Take an Extra turn with Level Up, the Ophidian Effect Prowl, Will of the Council, Planeswalker, Heroic, Miracle, Delve, Colored Artifacts, Buyback, Champion, and even in a sense Fateful Hour.
When you make a mechanic, you start with the base things that people expect. If it can alter spells, they want altered spells. They want Removal, Card Draw, Extra Turns, Burn, Giant Growths, etc. How many times have we seen "Deal 3 Damage" with any number of mechanics?
Here's a list:
Barbed Lightning
Bolt of Keranos
Brimstone Mage
Brimstone Volley
Burn Trail
Cackling Flames
Fiery Impulse
Fiery Temper
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Lash Out
Lightning Crafter
Puncture Blast
Rift Bolt
Searing Blaze
Skirk Volcanist
Solar Blast
Thermal Blast
Urza's Rage
Volt Charge
And those are just the ones I found with specifically 3 damage dealt, without attempting to repeat any mechanics or list anything "vanilla."
Of course the first time they use a mechanic, make a mechanic, it's going to be using similar effects as in the past. That's our metric. That gives us familiarity when the mechanic is adding something new. It lets previewers go "Oh, I don't know how strong X Mechanic is, but I do know what that spell does and how strong it is."
When mechanics get a chance to return, that's when we can see the really weird stuff, in higher quantities.
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No, but it is necessary for EDH and Casual players, particularly for multi-player game players where it's broken anyway, but not madly broken as it would be without the Exile clause. Because there have been so many cards printed in the past 20+ years that absurdly abuse cards like this, the Exile is now necessary on the "take an extra turn" cards that have even high casting costs such as Time Sieve.
People are moaning and complaining about how expensive this is, usually because they are Standard players. This isn't a card meant for the Standard format. (The quote above is merely for illustrative effect).
Let me make this perfectly clear: Wizards doesn't print every card with Standard format in mind, and not every player is a Standard player. This card is a great example of this - it is designed for people like me who abuse cards in ways inconceivable to most Standard players because I have access to thousands of cards they do not.
6 Mana for an extra turn in Casual multi-player is valid, especially since this is blue. That means the chances of the player having a Cancel or two on standby to ensure the spell goes off is likely. Furthermore, the Exile clause is annoying (and now unfortunately necessary) but not insurmountable, especially in BFZ with so many spells pulling cards out of exile. [Set synergy, anyone?] BTW, hasn't anyone noticed that the one nearly perfect maximum security prison for spells now has a back door? Exile, before this set, was where Wizards could count on sending something that became too powerful and broken: simply print a card that sends (enter too broken card name here) to exile. Exile was the place that voided "dying" effects. Black is going to have a field day here.
For those curious enough, Part the Waterveil is broken already with Panoptic Mirror, and at 6 CMC Part the Waterveil seems perfectly designed for Panoptic Mirror. The turn after you play Panoptic Mirror, in response to its upkeep trigger, tap six mana OF ANY COLOR, and drop this beauty on it - you don't even need U. If your opponents don't have instant or flash artifact removal or spell counters, that usually ends the game. Notice that "exile" has no impact on this combo. None whatsoever.
For some players, insta-win combos are no fun. However, for some players they are. My group enjoys them and loves foiling them, which is one reason our decks tend to have over 100 cards in them - some approaching 150 - each filled with many different combos and answers to nearly every scenario. It isn't uncommon for five or six turns to pass before anyone makes an offensive move, so yeah, the cost on this card isn't too outrageous.