Odd collector numbering in this set - Arid Mesa is 24/45, Steam Vents is 12/45. That means they aren't numbered strictly alphabetically, and the fetches don't start on a boundary divisible by 5. Meaning one group of cards likely isn't a full cycle (5 or 10).
We know they are full cycles. Maro said so on stream. 10 fetches, 10 shocks, 5 new duals.
So the current odds of pulling a foil mythic is 1:216 packs which equals 1 every 6 boxes, if these are slightly more likely my guess would be they're roughly 1:180 packs which is 1 every 5 boxes.
Odd collector numbering in this set - Arid Mesa is 24/45, Steam Vents is 12/45. That means they aren't numbered strictly alphabetically, and the fetches don't start on a boundary divisible by 5. Meaning one group of cards likely isn't a full cycle (5 or 10).
We know they are full cycles. Maro said so on stream. 10 fetches, 10 shocks, 5 new duals.
We know the 25 in BFZ packs are full cycles. As for the 20 cards in Sweat packs...
And even if they do all end up being 5/10 cycles, the numbering for Arid Mesa is still weird.
They never made an actual legal contract. They just said they wouldn't reprint them. They took the commons off of the reserved list. They could take the duals off if they wanted to.
They don't need to have made a legal contract.
I don't remember the exact legal term for it (maybe somebody else can help me out, here?) but essentially, when WotC created the RL, this amounted to issuing guidance to customers by which those customers could make financial decisions. And WotC is now on the hook for issuing that guidance.
To draw a parallel, let's say that your local comic book store has some kind of membership card. Pay $10 once, and you get 10% off your pull list purchases for life. If you pay that $10, you're doing so based on the guidance the store has issued you about your future 10% discount. If you came in the next week, having paid your $10, and they said, "Nope, we aren't doing the membership thing anymore", you would have a solid legal case against them for that $10, at the very least. You bought the membership because of certain financial assurances made by the comic book shop.
The same thing goes for the RL. If WotC broke the RL, and anybody can show that they realized losses on the value of their RL cards afterwards, they could come after WotC for those losses. WotC's legal team realized that those people would probably prevail against WotC in court, or at least eat up so much of their legal department's time that it would give them nightmares. WotC does not want to get sued by every penny-ante RL collector every time there's a downturn in the secondary market, which is almost certainly what would happen if they broke the RL. (I suspect it's what did happen after they broke it the last time.)
So, it ain't happening. Not as long as Magic is produced by the company that issued said guidance (WotC). Sad, but apparently that's just the reality of things.
Actually you're not really correct on this, if you pay attention to the fine print, terms, etc on anything like membership cards, discount programs, it ALWAYS says something along the lines of " (Business Name) reserves the right to change the terms of this offer at any time without warning, including but not limited to etc etc etc termination of this offer." Which means for example using your example by paying the $10 for the discount program you agreed to the terms set about and if the business cancelled it the next week you're SoL.
Actually you're not really correct on this, if you pay attention to the fine print, terms, etc on anything like membership cards, discount programs, it ALWAYS says something along the lines of " (Business Name) reserves the right to change the terms of this offer at any time without warning, including but not limited to etc etc etc termination of this offer." Which means for example using your example by paying the $10 for the discount program you agreed to the terms set about and if the business cancelled it the next week you're SoL.
Well, WotC did not provide any such fine print at the time that they issued the RL. In fact, they bent over backwards to communicate that this was a "forever" thing.
They did that because they had major consumer trust issues following the slew of Chronicles / Fourth Edition / Ice Age reprints. Building an escape clause like that into the RL would have undermined the purpose of it.
So basically, WotC created this problem for themselves. (See also: the D&D 3rd Ed. OGL.) It sucks for WotC, it sucks for the vast majority of players, but they can't really do anything about it now.
Actually you're not really correct on this, if you pay attention to the fine print, terms, etc on anything like membership cards, discount programs, it ALWAYS says something along the lines of " (Business Name) reserves the right to change the terms of this offer at any time without warning, including but not limited to etc etc etc termination of this offer." Which means for example using your example by paying the $10 for the discount program you agreed to the terms set about and if the business cancelled it the next week you're SoL.
Well, WotC did not provide any such fine print at the time that they issued the RL. In fact, they bent over backwards to communicate that this was a "forever" thing.
They did that because they had major consumer trust issues following Chronicles / 4th Edition. Building an escape clause like that into the RL would have undermined the purpose of it.
So basically, WotC created this problem for themselves. (See also: the D&D 3rd Ed. OGL.) It sucks for WotC, it sucks for the vast majority of players, but they can't really do anything about it now.
I am quite aware of the circumstances that lead to the reserved list, but there also was never any formal agreement, and verbal agreements and non binding written agreements are pretty much moot point. Especially when you have a multibillion dollar conglomerate vs a bunch of po'd consumers. Hasbro and WoTC can pretty much do whatever they want with the reserved list. Now it is decent of them to continue to honor it but in reality they could go as far as doing a full reprint run of ABU and there's nothing anyone could legally do to them about it.
Actually you're not really correct on this, if you pay attention to the fine print, terms, etc on anything like membership cards, discount programs, it ALWAYS says something along the lines of " (Business Name) reserves the right to change the terms of this offer at any time without warning, including but not limited to etc etc etc termination of this offer." Which means for example using your example by paying the $10 for the discount program you agreed to the terms set about and if the business cancelled it the next week you're SoL.
Well, WotC did not provide any such fine print at the time that they issued the RL. In fact, they bent over backwards to communicate that this was a "forever" thing.
They did that because they had major consumer trust issues following Chronicles / 4th Edition. Building an escape clause like that into the RL would have undermined the purpose of it.
So basically, WotC created this problem for themselves. (See also: the D&D 3rd Ed. OGL.) It sucks for WotC, it sucks for the vast majority of players, but they can't really do anything about it now.
I am quite aware of the circumstances that lead to the reserved list, but there also was never any formal agreement, and verbal agreements and non binding written agreements are pretty much moot point. Especially when you have a multibillion dollar conglomerate vs a bunch of po'd consumers. Hasbro and WoTC can pretty much do whatever they want with the reserved list. Now it is decent of them to continue to honor it but in reality they could go as far as doing a full reprint run of ABU and there's nothing anyone could legally do to them about it.
Can anyone please enlighten me about the stipulations of the RL? Is wizards forbidden to print new cards with different names but are mechanically identical to those under the RL?
Anyway, I think the new baselands are already as close they can get to ABUR duals. I see no reason why they have to print the actual duals in Sweat.
verbal agreements and non binding written agreements are pretty much moot point.
In this case, they are very much NOT a moot point.
IANAL, but another similar situation would be "bait-and-switch" advertisements. If you advertise something at a certain price, and you don't print that your quantities at that price are limited, you are usually on the hook to sell the item to the consumer at a certain price (specific laws differ by jurisdiction, I think). You signed no contract with the customer, just as WotC did not sign a contract with its players when it created the RL. Nonetheless, you made a statement regarding an item and its monetary value, and statements like this issued by a company can have legal ramifications.
To put it a different way, yes, WotC can break the RL. It's not illegal for them to do so. But customers can then come after them for realized losses on their RL cards, and WotC has no interest in dealing with that crap, even if they win every case. It's time-consuming, it's expensive for them, and worst of all, it's bad PR.
They probably wouldn't do it, because it's the easy way out. If a lesser dual is always gonna sell packs, why would you stop making more of them.
Printing the ABUs again is a sign that Magic is dying because they ran out of ideas. And the last time I remember, each successive set manages to surpass its previous, especially the fall sets. New ideas/designs ain't running out just yet. And possibly not in the next 5-10 years.
The same thing goes for the RL. If WotC broke the RL, and anybody can show that they realized losses on the value of their RL cards afterwards, they could come after WotC for those losses. WotC's legal team realized that those people would probably prevail against WotC in court, or at least eat up so much of their legal department's time that it would give them nightmares. WotC does not want to get sued by every penny-ante RL collector every time there's a downturn in the secondary market, which is almost certainly what would happen if they broke the RL. (I suspect it's what did happen after they broke it the last time.)
So, it ain't happening. Not as long as Magic is produced by the company that issued said guidance (WotC). Sad, but apparently that's just the reality of things.
IANAL but I'm pretty sure this is untrue. The reserved list was made as a promise not to flood the market again and end up devaluing cards, and that deal was hashed out with very specific people in mind - the store owners who lost thousands of dollars in inventory almost overnight. The current wave of speculators and hoarders of reserved list cards were never considered in the original agreement, and classified as "incidental beneficiaries" - which means they have NO right to recovery if the initial agreement is breached. Not only that, but having talked with a lawyer who specializes in contract law, her professional opinion was that if taken to court, the judge would likely find the contract (in this case, the reserved list) unenforceable and void it entirely - which means NO ONE has any right to recover anything from wizards in that case, period.
If wizards wants to do away with the reserved list (and I've heard rumblings along those lines) all they need is to get the assurances of the people who they dealt with in making the original list, and getting promises they won't bring suit. If that happens, then they're free and clear.
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Not much to crunch there, since we know the Expeditions contain 5 "MegaChecklands", 10 Shocklands and 10 Fetchlands.
Since Steam Vents is #12 and Arid Mesa #24, it likely means the order is "MegaChecklands" - Shocklands - Fetchlands, ordered by WUBRG (Ally) and WUBRG (Enemy)
These aren't priceless treasures. It should be in there for as long as BFZ's in print. Though it's not uncommon for said things to be "rarer" in the latter stages of print.
They still have to dance around the reserve list for these...right? Tundra full art foil....
The Reserve List doesn't allow them to reprint anything on it in paper ever. Full art Tundra on MTGO? Possible. In paper? Never going to happen.
Never is a very long time...
All that's needed to happen is a rich Saudi trying Magic and deciding that instead of buying boosters, he just buys the company. Then he decides a reserved list is unislamic and voila: we can print again!
It could happen any day!
I know that you were just kidding, but not only would it be near-impossible for some rich person to just buy the world's second-largest toy company, I don't think there is anything un-Islamic about reserved lists (disclaimer: I am not Muslim).
I think I might sell my car and a kidney on the black market to be able to fund my paper-drug-crazed spending on boxes.
lol.. yea I think its going to take me a decade to collect all of these.... gorgeous art, foil never the less... just wow. SMH I suppose ill make a run at limited and maybe get lucky once, twice? this set... is $2500 a decent ballpark on this?
They still have to dance around the reserve list for these...right? Tundra full art foil....
The Reserve List doesn't allow them to reprint anything on it in paper ever. Full art Tundra on MTGO? Possible. In paper? Never going to happen.
Never is a very long time...
All that's needed to happen is a rich Saudi trying Magic and deciding that instead of buying boosters, he just buys the company. Then he decides a reserved list is unislamic and voila: we can print again!
It could happen any day!
I know that you were just kidding, but not only would it be near-impossible for some rich person to just buy the world's second-largest toy company, I don't think there is anything un-Islamic about reserved lists (disclaimer: I am not Muslim).
It was a joke and I really though it was so much in the face that nobody could take it for real suggestion.
I mean: Making a friendly joke once in a while is ok on these forums?
Sorry, its just that saying that someone might decide that something is un-Islamic and change it is just a stupid idea. It might have been a joke, but no one would say that about a rich Christian buying Hasbro, deciding that the reserved list is not what Jesus would have wanted, and giving us all dual-lands. That would just sound stupid, and it sounds stupid regardless of what religion you apply it to.
Edit: Also, I am overreacting due to tiredness and grumpiness. Sorry.
They are reprints but they are not quite "mass reprints" designed to make the cards far more accessible to everything.
They are "luxury counterparts" to these lands. Still, I'll take that over not having them any day.
Exactly, I don't think a lot of people are grasping just how rare these things will be. If you want one, you're much better off just buying an exorbitantly priced single on the secondary market than cracking packs until you get one. And yes, they are going to be so exorbitantly priced that it will be comparable to opening a foil Goyf (with about the same chances of opening, taking into account the increased chances of opening foils in Modern Masters). Think about it: official, full art fetches and shocks. Do you know how many players will be wanting playsets? Everyone. And there is a very, VERY limited supply if they are only as common as a foil Mythic rare.
They are reprints but they are not quite "mass reprints" designed to make the cards far more accessible to everything.
They are "luxury counterparts" to these lands. Still, I'll take that over not having them any day.
Exactly, I don't think a lot of people are grasping just how rare these things will be. If you want one, you're much better off just buying an exorbitantly priced single on the secondary market than cracking packs until you get one. And yes, they are going to be so exorbitantly priced that it will be comparable to opening a foil Goyf (with about the same chances of opening, taking into account the increased chances of opening foils in Modern Masters). Think about it: official, full art fetches and shocks. Do you know how many players will be wanting playsets? Everyone. And there is a very, VERY limited supply if they are only as common as a foil Mythic rare.
I do not expect any, but if I get some well will be nice that it pays for a good chunk of my sealed product.
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We know they are full cycles. Maro said so on stream. 10 fetches, 10 shocks, 5 new duals.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
We know the 25 in BFZ packs are full cycles. As for the 20 cards in Sweat packs...
And even if they do all end up being 5/10 cycles, the numbering for Arid Mesa is still weird.
Actually you're not really correct on this, if you pay attention to the fine print, terms, etc on anything like membership cards, discount programs, it ALWAYS says something along the lines of " (Business Name) reserves the right to change the terms of this offer at any time without warning, including but not limited to etc etc etc termination of this offer." Which means for example using your example by paying the $10 for the discount program you agreed to the terms set about and if the business cancelled it the next week you're SoL.
They did that because they had major consumer trust issues following the slew of Chronicles / Fourth Edition / Ice Age reprints. Building an escape clause like that into the RL would have undermined the purpose of it.
So basically, WotC created this problem for themselves. (See also: the D&D 3rd Ed. OGL.) It sucks for WotC, it sucks for the vast majority of players, but they can't really do anything about it now.
I am quite aware of the circumstances that lead to the reserved list, but there also was never any formal agreement, and verbal agreements and non binding written agreements are pretty much moot point. Especially when you have a multibillion dollar conglomerate vs a bunch of po'd consumers. Hasbro and WoTC can pretty much do whatever they want with the reserved list. Now it is decent of them to continue to honor it but in reality they could go as far as doing a full reprint run of ABU and there's nothing anyone could legally do to them about it.
Can anyone please enlighten me about the stipulations of the RL? Is wizards forbidden to print new cards with different names but are mechanically identical to those under the RL?
Anyway, I think the new baselands are already as close they can get to ABUR duals. I see no reason why they have to print the actual duals in Sweat.
IANAL, but another similar situation would be "bait-and-switch" advertisements. If you advertise something at a certain price, and you don't print that your quantities at that price are limited, you are usually on the hook to sell the item to the consumer at a certain price (specific laws differ by jurisdiction, I think). You signed no contract with the customer, just as WotC did not sign a contract with its players when it created the RL. Nonetheless, you made a statement regarding an item and its monetary value, and statements like this issued by a company can have legal ramifications.
To put it a different way, yes, WotC can break the RL. It's not illegal for them to do so. But customers can then come after them for realized losses on their RL cards, and WotC has no interest in dealing with that crap, even if they win every case. It's time-consuming, it's expensive for them, and worst of all, it's bad PR.
If you follow this by
6-10 Allied Shocks WUBRG
11-15 Enemy Shocks WUBRG
16-20 Allied Fetches WUBRG
21-25 Enemy Fetches WUBRG
It fits perfectly with Steam Vents at 12 and Arid Mesa at 24.
Printing the ABUs again is a sign that Magic is dying because they ran out of ideas. And the last time I remember, each successive set manages to surpass its previous, especially the fall sets. New ideas/designs ain't running out just yet. And possibly not in the next 5-10 years.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
FWIW I don't think 16-20 are a total lock. 16-20 could be a different cycle (although allied fetches are very likely).
IANAL but I'm pretty sure this is untrue. The reserved list was made as a promise not to flood the market again and end up devaluing cards, and that deal was hashed out with very specific people in mind - the store owners who lost thousands of dollars in inventory almost overnight. The current wave of speculators and hoarders of reserved list cards were never considered in the original agreement, and classified as "incidental beneficiaries" - which means they have NO right to recovery if the initial agreement is breached. Not only that, but having talked with a lawyer who specializes in contract law, her professional opinion was that if taken to court, the judge would likely find the contract (in this case, the reserved list) unenforceable and void it entirely - which means NO ONE has any right to recover anything from wizards in that case, period.
If wizards wants to do away with the reserved list (and I've heard rumblings along those lines) all they need is to get the assurances of the people who they dealt with in making the original list, and getting promises they won't bring suit. If that happens, then they're free and clear.
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They are a total lock. Maro said it's two 10 card cycles.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
I know that you were just kidding, but not only would it be near-impossible for some rich person to just buy the world's second-largest toy company, I don't think there is anything un-Islamic about reserved lists (disclaimer: I am not Muslim).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Where've you been? Theros WAS the best-selling set of all time until Khans.
And it's pretty obvious how they do it.
lol.. yea I think its going to take me a decade to collect all of these.... gorgeous art, foil never the less... just wow. SMH I suppose ill make a run at limited and maybe get lucky once, twice? this set... is $2500 a decent ballpark on this?
Sorry, its just that saying that someone might decide that something is un-Islamic and change it is just a stupid idea. It might have been a joke, but no one would say that about a rich Christian buying Hasbro, deciding that the reserved list is not what Jesus would have wanted, and giving us all dual-lands. That would just sound stupid, and it sounds stupid regardless of what religion you apply it to.
Edit: Also, I am overreacting due to tiredness and grumpiness. Sorry.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
They are "luxury counterparts" to these lands. Still, I'll take that over not having them any day.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
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The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
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Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
Exactly, I don't think a lot of people are grasping just how rare these things will be. If you want one, you're much better off just buying an exorbitantly priced single on the secondary market than cracking packs until you get one. And yes, they are going to be so exorbitantly priced that it will be comparable to opening a foil Goyf (with about the same chances of opening, taking into account the increased chances of opening foils in Modern Masters). Think about it: official, full art fetches and shocks. Do you know how many players will be wanting playsets? Everyone. And there is a very, VERY limited supply if they are only as common as a foil Mythic rare.
I do not expect any, but if I get some well will be nice that it pays for a good chunk of my sealed product.