How would that Moonmist variant kill your 'Walkers?
If you directly transform one of the 'Walkers, there's no effect that puts Loyalty counters on them. So they would immediately go to the graveyard. That's why they first exile to transform, so that they get loyalty counters when they come into play as a Planeswalker. Actually, I'd venture to say they used that templating instead of putting counters on transformation in order to avoid the interaction with effects like Moonmist.
I did not know that they couldn't get loyalty counters from transforming, but it makes sense, as all other PWs get their counters from ETB. So would this work then?
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Exile target non-planeswalker permanent, then return it to the battlefield. If the exiled permanent was a creature, return it to the battlefield transformed.
While the chandra doc was spoiled in like may, the date on it was january 7th 2015. So it's completely understandable that the first side had a copyright of 2014, especially when you consider that the name of the pdf puts it as an internal design reference document and not an actually printed version of the card.
I think in both Tiny Leaders and Standard she will be pretty decent and easy to flip. Especially in standard, she is screaming to be in an Izzet Counter-Burn deck.
I don't think this is even close to standard playable. Virtually impossible to flip, and not good once it does.
I think in both Tiny Leaders and Standard she will be pretty decent and easy to flip. Especially in standard, she is screaming to be in an Izzet Counter-Burn deck.
I don't think this is even close to standard playable. Virtually impossible to flip, and not good once it does.
In what way does having to cast two red spells in a turn make her "virtually impossible" to flip? Particularly given that, at least until the new rotation cycle kicks in, a deck using her will have access to both Wild Slash and Lightning Strike. Plenty of cheap Red creatures that'll be in Standard, as well.
Thats two easy ways to have her flip on T3. Most red decks run playsets of everything to increase consistency, and since you want her early, and shes easy to die I dont see a reason to not run 3 of her. Theres a pretty likely chance she can flip on T3 or T4 at the latest. In my opinion, using her in an Izzet deck, I see her not only flipping, but hitting ultimate a decent bit, maybe about 20%-25% of the time.
You guys are describing 3- and 4-card combos that net you an underpowered planeswalker for maybe 1cmc cheaper than it might be on its own. There are simpler combos in standard that actually just win the game.
I think in both Tiny Leaders and Standard she will be pretty decent and easy to flip. Especially in standard, she is screaming to be in an Izzet Counter-Burn deck.
I don't think this is even close to standard playable. Virtually impossible to flip, and not good once it does.
Ya'll never had fun with Izzet Ping decks, didja? Runs some assortment of Lava Darts, Bolts, Gelectrodes, Cinder Pyromancer, Curelean Wisps... She's a great inclusion into that deck. Not that this deck was ever actually a thing, but its fun.
Her playability will be limited by the fact that she dies to wild slash. Yes I get dies to removal is often a bad argument but its more valid when there's a mana efficiency difference of 2 or more. Monastery mentor has seen less play for just this reason...he's a turn 4 2/2 if you want any value.
Whoa she's....difficult to analyze. She needed to be a 1 mana to be broken, and 2 mana to be good, but 3 mana is questionable.
My analysis:
Her creature is a 3 mana 2/2. Not the best, but she does have Prodigal Pyromancer's ability so she forces through some value and inevitability.
Flipping her is relatively easier than some are making it out to be. She has to be unblocked, and you have to have a red spell. Red removal is preferable.
She is 5 damage in a single turn when you flip her. Goes to 5 loyalty as well.
Dies to removal for 1 damage or no value.
Blockers pose a problem, and this doesn't play well with Dash.
My verdict: Test her. She can be huge damage or great value if you untap with her. Unfortunately I'm not sure if she's a better 3 drop than Goblin Heelcutter. I think Chandra is better than she looks, but she still might not make the cut.
I think in both Tiny Leaders and Standard she will be pretty decent and easy to flip. Especially in standard, she is screaming to be in an Izzet Counter-Burn deck.
I don't think this is even close to standard playable. Virtually impossible to flip, and not good once it does.
Ya'll never had fun with Izzet Ping decks, didja? Runs some assortment of Lava Darts, Bolts, Gelectrodes, Cinder Pyromancer, Curelean Wisps... She's a great inclusion into that deck. Not that this deck was ever actually a thing, but its fun.
what are you talking about literally none of those cards are standard legal
In Standard, we currently have twocards that allow her to deal damage without attacking. Then we also have Soul's Fire in Modern and Chandra's Ignition in Origins itself. So Chandra doesn't require two red spells in a single turn, though with Spell mastery being a mechanic in Origins you might be happy to cast two anyway, and in the kind of deck that wants to play Chandra casting multiple burn spells in a single turn isn't necessarily a bad idea. You might even get rid of any potential blockers by casting a burn spell following the declare attackers step but before the declare blockers step. Gut Shot can always make for a neat surprise combo in Modern.
By the way, am I the only one who keeps reading "Roaring Flame" as "Roasting Flame"? Makes me think of Chandra pulling out some chestnuts or marshmallows.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
You guys are describing 3- and 4-card combos that net you an underpowered planeswalker for maybe 1cmc cheaper than it might be on its own. There are simpler combos in standard that actually just win the game.
But the complaint you posed was never about Chandra "winning the game in standard", you just said she was "virtually impossible to flip", when doing so is absolutely nowhere near that difficult.
Whoa she's....difficult to analyze. She needed to be a 1 mana to be broken, and 2 mana to be good, but 3 mana is questionable.
My analysis:
Her creature is a 3 mana 2/2. Not the best, but she does have Prodigal Pyromancer's ability so she forces through some value and inevitability.
Flipping her is relatively easier than some are making it out to be. She has to be unblocked, and you have to have a red spell. Red removal is preferable.
She is 5 damage in a single turn when you flip her. Goes to 5 loyalty as well.
Dies to removal for 1 damage or no value.
Blockers pose a problem, and this doesn't play well with Dash.
My verdict: Test her. She can be huge damage or great value if you untap with her. Unfortunately I'm not sure if she's a better 3 drop than Goblin Heelcutter. I think Chandra is better than she looks, but she still might not make the cut.
She doesn't have to go unblocked, actually. I was making that mistake earlier, too. She just has to survive combat. Giving her First Strike or boosting her toughness as a combat trick or having her blocked by a 1/1 will also do the trick to satisfy the damage requirement. Brute Force or Kindled Fury can serve you just as well as a well timed burn spell to remove a blocker if you're just looking to flip her.
My only problem with this Chandra is the fact that her plus and minus abilities are both Shock with swapped targeting restrictions. I mean, it wouldn't be broken for her +1 to read "deal 2 damage to target creature or player" would it? That would allow room for her minus ability to be something else. Maybe Act on Impulse? Or just Act on Impulse with only two cards. I'd be cool with that.
I understand that these planeswalker cards are meant to represent them a bit earlier in in their escapades but all the others that we've seen still get to do cool and varied stuff(Nissa's +1 is literally Coiling Oracle) while Chandra only gets to deal varying degrees of damage. I'd just like a little variety in her abilities. That said, I still think this card is pretty decent and I'm excited to get one.
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"Pop in, find a dragon, roast a dragon."
-Chandra Nalaar
My only problem with this Chandra is the fact that her plus and minus abilities are both Shock with swapped targeting restrictions. I mean, it wouldn't be broken for her +1 to read "deal 2 damage to target creature or player" would it? That would allow room for her minus ability to be something else. Maybe Act on Impulse? Or just Act on Impulse with only two cards. I'd be cool with that.
I understand that these planeswalker cards are meant to represent them a bit earlier in in their escapades but all the others that we've seen still get to do cool and varied stuff(Nissa's +1 is literally Coiling Oracle) while Chandra only gets to deal varying degrees of damage. I'd just like a little variety in her abilities. That said, I still think this card is pretty decent and I'm excited to get one.
Well again, I think their reasoning is that they're taking a bit of a risk with letting her do 2 damage a tick with no other costs, so they're trying to make her more narrow in scope to balance it. If they feel that her + ability isn't too powerful after seeing how it fares in the actual environment, maybe we'll get future Chandras that hit for two and still have more diverse abilities.
I think in both Tiny Leaders and Standard she will be pretty decent and easy to flip. Especially in standard, she is screaming to be in an Izzet Counter-Burn deck.
I don't think this is even close to standard playable. Virtually impossible to flip, and not good once it does.
Ya'll never had fun with Izzet Ping decks, didja? Runs some assortment of Lava Darts, Bolts, Gelectrodes, Cinder Pyromancer, Curelean Wisps... She's a great inclusion into that deck. Not that this deck was ever actually a thing, but its fun.
what are you talking about literally none of those cards are standard legal
Of course not, mostly, but the idea is there is a shell in which this kind of card can be very good. All you need are the right tools. With Prowess becoming evergreen, I wager we will see them.
By the way, Chandra was fond of fist logic. A fight spell that helps her survive the fight can work just as well with her ping ability as Fall of the Hammer and the like.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I wonder if this could see play in legacy burn boards in a S&T heavy meta. She should be an easy 6 damage the turn you untap with her, which is probably the best possible thing you could S&T into play for burn that is also still a viable card you could actually cast.
Something like this would be the ideal scenario:
T1: Mountain, Goblin Guide, Swing. Opponent: Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, S&T (Griselbrand/Emrakul, Chandra). Opponent at 16.
T2: Mountain, Ping, Chain Lightning, Ping, Lighning Bolt, Ping, Respond with Fireblast, Ping. Flip Chandra, + for 2. Opponent at 0.
I mean, Burn should probably win when they untap with her a lot of the time. 3 mana is probably too much for legacy in most cases that will keep her out of the main, but I feel like it might be worth testing vs. S&T at least. It might also be decent vs. combo elves if you can fall back on a control plan, since she has a lot more finishing power than in most cards in burn.
The vanilla test, a 2/2 for 3 is like your last pick in draft and not playable in any constructed format.
For a 2/2 at 3 to be playable it has to have either immediate impact (like rabblemaster) or be a huge threat that demands immediate removal (like rabblemaster). She has zero impact when she is played, and while she can be a threat the next turn, all of her fun stuff is highly conditional. She needs to either attack and ping once, or ping 3 times.
The more advanced test is like this:
Do you want her in your opening hand? Yes, she is a threat at the beginning of the game.
Do you want to draw her in the mid game? Not really, unless your hand is full of other cards.
Do you want to draw her late game as a top deck? No, she doesn't do anything.
Does she help you gain board control when the board is full for both sides? Maybe, highly depends on what you have in your hand.
Does she help you gain board control if behind? No, she is a 2/2 at that point and is worse than other 3 drops.
Does she help you maintain board control if ahead? Yes, if she can connect and ping once, then her +1 is a decent clock along with her -2 for helping board control
So basically, the only time you want her is in your opening hand or first few draws when you can fill the board quickly. At any other time she is pretty bad.
For standard, the next question is, is she better than the other 3 drops in standard at the role she has? Better than rabblemaster? No, not by a long shot. Rabblemaster provides immediate value, can win the game by itself, and demands an immediate response.
I think her real place will be burn, however, she is likely to draw removal and doesn't do enough to affect board control before dying. So much potential in this card, but ultimately, I think, will see limited play in standard only.
Is this a real thing? It seems to good to be true. Turn 3 cast Chandra, Turn 4 tap Chandra 1 to opponent, Lightning Strike 3 to opponent, tap Chandra 1 to opponent, Lightning Strike 3 to opponent tap and flip Chandra causing 3 with +1 and ping. 11 Damage on turn 4 seems decent. I have been testing and with Atarka's Command, Lightning Strike, and Wild Slash I have been able to consistently flip her turn 4 for double digit damage. (Assuming I draw her of course).
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Instant
Exile target non-planeswalker permanent, then return it to the battlefield. If the exiled permanent was a creature, return it to the battlefield transformed.
But of course everybody ignored those details.
and we are correct with Chandra's Ignition card. seems to help her transform, but too slow for my taste.
i suppose there will be other "ignition" cards to be printed.
I don't think this is even close to standard playable. Virtually impossible to flip, and not good once it does.
In what way does having to cast two red spells in a turn make her "virtually impossible" to flip? Particularly given that, at least until the new rotation cycle kicks in, a deck using her will have access to both Wild Slash and Lightning Strike. Plenty of cheap Red creatures that'll be in Standard, as well.
T2 Mountain > Chandra
T3 Land > 2 red spells costing total of 4 mana or less.
T1 Mountain
T2 Mountain > Generator Servant
T3 Mountain > Sac Generator Servant > Chandra, swing with her, > 1 burn spell > ping.
Thats two easy ways to have her flip on T3. Most red decks run playsets of everything to increase consistency, and since you want her early, and shes easy to die I dont see a reason to not run 3 of her. Theres a pretty likely chance she can flip on T3 or T4 at the latest. In my opinion, using her in an Izzet deck, I see her not only flipping, but hitting ultimate a decent bit, maybe about 20%-25% of the time.
Ya'll never had fun with Izzet Ping decks, didja? Runs some assortment of Lava Darts, Bolts, Gelectrodes, Cinder Pyromancer, Curelean Wisps... She's a great inclusion into that deck. Not that this deck was ever actually a thing, but its fun.
My analysis:
- Her creature is a 3 mana 2/2. Not the best, but she does have Prodigal Pyromancer's ability so she forces through some value and inevitability.
- Flipping her is relatively easier than some are making it out to be. She has to be unblocked, and you have to have a red spell. Red removal is preferable.
- She is 5 damage in a single turn when you flip her. Goes to 5 loyalty as well.
- Dies to removal for 1 damage or no value.
- Blockers pose a problem, and this doesn't play well with Dash.
My verdict: Test her. She can be huge damage or great value if you untap with her. Unfortunately I'm not sure if she's a better 3 drop than Goblin Heelcutter. I think Chandra is better than she looks, but she still might not make the cut.what are you talking about literally none of those cards are standard legal
By the way, am I the only one who keeps reading "Roaring Flame" as "Roasting Flame"? Makes me think of Chandra pulling out some chestnuts or marshmallows.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
But the complaint you posed was never about Chandra "winning the game in standard", you just said she was "virtually impossible to flip", when doing so is absolutely nowhere near that difficult.
She doesn't have to go unblocked, actually. I was making that mistake earlier, too. She just has to survive combat. Giving her First Strike or boosting her toughness as a combat trick or having her blocked by a 1/1 will also do the trick to satisfy the damage requirement. Brute Force or Kindled Fury can serve you just as well as a well timed burn spell to remove a blocker if you're just looking to flip her.
I understand that these planeswalker cards are meant to represent them a bit earlier in in their escapades but all the others that we've seen still get to do cool and varied stuff(Nissa's +1 is literally Coiling Oracle) while Chandra only gets to deal varying degrees of damage. I'd just like a little variety in her abilities. That said, I still think this card is pretty decent and I'm excited to get one.
-Chandra Nalaar
Well again, I think their reasoning is that they're taking a bit of a risk with letting her do 2 damage a tick with no other costs, so they're trying to make her more narrow in scope to balance it. If they feel that her + ability isn't too powerful after seeing how it fares in the actual environment, maybe we'll get future Chandras that hit for two and still have more diverse abilities.
Of course not, mostly, but the idea is there is a shell in which this kind of card can be very good. All you need are the right tools. With Prowess becoming evergreen, I wager we will see them.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Something like this would be the ideal scenario:
T1: Mountain, Goblin Guide, Swing. Opponent: Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, S&T (Griselbrand/Emrakul, Chandra). Opponent at 16.
T2: Mountain, Ping, Chain Lightning, Ping, Lighning Bolt, Ping, Respond with Fireblast, Ping. Flip Chandra, + for 2. Opponent at 0.
I mean, Burn should probably win when they untap with her a lot of the time. 3 mana is probably too much for legacy in most cases that will keep her out of the main, but I feel like it might be worth testing vs. S&T at least. It might also be decent vs. combo elves if you can fall back on a control plan, since she has a lot more finishing power than in most cards in burn.
The vanilla test, a 2/2 for 3 is like your last pick in draft and not playable in any constructed format.
For a 2/2 at 3 to be playable it has to have either immediate impact (like rabblemaster) or be a huge threat that demands immediate removal (like rabblemaster). She has zero impact when she is played, and while she can be a threat the next turn, all of her fun stuff is highly conditional. She needs to either attack and ping once, or ping 3 times.
The more advanced test is like this:
Do you want her in your opening hand? Yes, she is a threat at the beginning of the game.
Do you want to draw her in the mid game? Not really, unless your hand is full of other cards.
Do you want to draw her late game as a top deck? No, she doesn't do anything.
Does she help you gain board control when the board is full for both sides? Maybe, highly depends on what you have in your hand.
Does she help you gain board control if behind? No, she is a 2/2 at that point and is worse than other 3 drops.
Does she help you maintain board control if ahead? Yes, if she can connect and ping once, then her +1 is a decent clock along with her -2 for helping board control
So basically, the only time you want her is in your opening hand or first few draws when you can fill the board quickly. At any other time she is pretty bad.
For standard, the next question is, is she better than the other 3 drops in standard at the role she has? Better than rabblemaster? No, not by a long shot. Rabblemaster provides immediate value, can win the game by itself, and demands an immediate response.
I think her real place will be burn, however, she is likely to draw removal and doesn't do enough to affect board control before dying. So much potential in this card, but ultimately, I think, will see limited play in standard only.