This is the main issue I have with this change, and it's not an argument of tradition. Commander had a bonus replacement effect that said 'If your Commander would be destroyed or exiled, you may place it in the Command Zone instead'. That doesn't change the functionality or the rules text of Oblivion Ring or Doom Blade. It works with the rules of the card as printed. This change adds conditional clauses on every bounce and tuck card that fundamentally changes the wording of those cards. That's not intuitive, it doesn't make sense, and from a design perspective, if you have to explain to someone who hasn't played Commander in years why suddenly a select handful of cards in magic no longer do what's printed on the card because some guys got together and said 'it doesn't work the way it's printed, it instead works this way...' that's not evolution, and it's not good game design.
I'm confused about this argument. Nothing is fundamentally changed about any cards. The Commmander replacement effect is simply changing from:
'If your Commander would be put into the graveyard or the exile zone, you may place it in the Command Zone instead'
to:
'If your Commander would be put into the graveyard, exile zone, hand, or library, you may place it in the Command Zone instead'
Which is hardly a large change, rules-wise. In fact, it actually becomes much simpler, because it basically just means 'If your Commander leaves play, you may place it in the Command Zone instead.' You don't have to remember which zones are allowed and which are not. I can't say much from the perspective of how well it plays, but just looking at simplicity of rules, it is not a huge change, and arguably makes things simpler. And that's not even considering weird things that could possibly happen with Commanders in hidden zones.
Doom Blade still 'kills' the Commander. Oblivion Ring still exiles the Commander. Oblation no longer does what is printed on the card. Boomerang now gives your opponent the option to be a kill spell? Where is the elegance or intuition in that?
Just on a sidenote, some guys from the commander forum did a poll, what the majority thinks about the tucking and getting rid of it. Atm, in just 4 days from almost 800 people, more than 60% say that they dislike the rules change.
Just talking about majorities here, because they have been mentioned. Dunno if I may post a link to a poll from a different side?
As someone who does agree with the rules change, I'll have to say that I'm actually surprised that not even more people are outraged with the change. The thing is that whenever a sudden change is made in any case in life, the natural reaction is to resist it no matter how it may benefit the greater good in the long run (of course, only time will tell whether this change would affect the game positively, negatively, or barely at all). Since the news of this change did come out of left field, it doesn't give the human psyche enough time to acclimatize to it. This is in contrast to a more routine change such as your yearly standard rotations where people expect the environment to change all the time. My prediction is that people will eventually calm down after awhile just like what happened to removing damage on the stack.
Doom Blade still 'kills' the Commander. Oblivion Ring still exiles the Commander. Oblation no longer does what is printed on the card. Boomerang now gives your opponent the option to be a kill spell? Where is the elegance or intuition in that?
What? Oblivion Ring doesn't exile the Commander, Doom Blade doesn't kill the Commander. They just send it to the Command Zone. Having Boomerang send to the Command Zone is actually closer to its original functionality than the other two spells, because it gets to be cast again from there.
Just on a sidenote, some guys from the commander forum did a poll, what the majority thinks about the tucking and getting rid of it. Atm, in just 4 days from almost 800 people, more than 60% say that they dislike the rules change.
Just talking about majorities here, because they have been mentioned. Dunno if I may post a link to a poll from a different side?
It is worth noting that polls which are largely based on emotional opinions will be skewed. The dissenters are often more vocal than those who agree, so it is no surprise that those who oppose this change will be ahead in the poll. Once the anger dies down and we have all had a proper chance to experience the new meta, I plan on doing another poll. As for linking to an offsite poll here, I will not speak for the RM mods, but we allowed it on the Commander forums. If it is on topic and not solicitous in nature, I don't see a problem, but as I said, I'm not a RM mod.
Just on a sidenote, some guys from the commander forum did a poll, what the majority thinks about the tucking and getting rid of it. Atm, in just 4 days from almost 800 people, more than 60% say that they dislike the rules change.
Just talking about majorities here, because they have been mentioned. Dunno if I may post a link to a poll from a different side?
It is worth noting that polls which are largely based on emotional opinions will be skewed. The dissenters are often more vocal than those who agree, so it is no surprise that those who oppose this change will be ahead in the poll. Once the anger dies down and we have all had a proper chance to experience the new meta, I plan on doing another poll. As for linking to an offsite poll here, I will not speak for the RM mods, but we allowed it on the Commander forums. If it is on topic and not solicitous in nature, I don't see a problem, but as I said, I'm not a RM mod.
Also of note, is that this poll is not a random sampling (not even to speak of things like sample size or voting multiple times...), so I don't know how accurate it could be.
Already, after a few days, the anger has died down immensely. Give it a month, and it will be even less.
Also of note, is that this poll is not a random sampling (not even to speak of things like sample size or voting multiple times...), so I don't know how accurate it could be.
Already, after a few days, the anger has died down immensely. Give it a month, and it will be even less.
Oh I quite agree. As drakelordphil pointed out, it was a *****storm on the Commander forums that first 24 hours, and the official site was WAY worse (imagine the posts we had only without the fear of mod reprimand). Now we're at the point to where we can civil discussions from each side, and it looks like Sheldon is slowly getting ready to peek his head up from behind the bunker. (It is worth noting for anyone who might say "it's his job" or something similar, that both he and Papa Funk have been quite active on the official forums.)
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I don't like this change.
The metagame will adapt and move on, but we lost a unique interaction in the format.
I feel like if they removed the graveyard zone (no more graveyard recursion) or made a special rule about only being able to draw one card on your draw step (no more card draw).
Awful.
This is the main issue I have with this change, and it's not an argument of tradition. Commander had a bonus replacement effect that said 'If your Commander would be destroyed or exiled, you may place it in the Command Zone instead'. That doesn't change the functionality or the rules text of Oblivion Ring or Doom Blade. It works with the rules of the card as printed. This change adds conditional clauses on every bounce and tuck card that fundamentally changes the wording of those cards. That's not intuitive, it doesn't make sense, and from a design perspective, if you have to explain to someone who hasn't played Commander in years why suddenly a select handful of cards in magic no longer do what's printed on the card because some guys got together and said 'it doesn't work the way it's printed, it instead works this way...' that's not evolution, and it's not good game design.
I'm confused about this argument. Nothing is fundamentally changed about any cards. The Commmander replacement effect is simply changing from:
'If your Commander would be put into the graveyard or the exile zone, you may place it in the Command Zone instead'
to:
'If your Commander would be put into the graveyard, exile zone, hand, or library, you may place it in the Command Zone instead'
Which is hardly a large change, rules-wise. In fact, it actually becomes much simpler, because it basically just means 'If your Commander leaves play, you may place it in the Command Zone instead.' You don't have to remember which zones are allowed and which are not. I can't say much from the perspective of how well it plays, but just looking at simplicity of rules, it is not a huge change, and arguably makes things simpler. And that's not even considering weird things that could possibly happen with Commanders in hidden zones.
Doom Blade still 'kills' the Commander. Oblivion Ring still exiles the Commander. Oblation no longer does what is printed on the card. Boomerang now gives your opponent the option to be a kill spell? Where is the elegance or intuition in that?
Doom Blade does not 'kill' the commander. It does not go to the graveyard and will not trigger any death triggers. Oblivion Ring does not exile the commander. If the Oblivion Ring is destroyed, the commander will not return to the battlefield if it was put into the command zone.
This is how replacement effects work. They change what other cards do.
Honesty I awlways disliked the tucking/bounce rule with commander, I felt it was super weird that killing and exiling would be "ignored" but tucking and bounces still worked. Plus as a Kaalia player that commander tax can get really hard to pay after so many turns, so the new rules doesn't really make things that much easier.
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Yeah, that's true. If you want the Kamigawa dragons to do their abilities and not just be a 5/5 flier for 6 you have to actually let them go to the graveyard. The rules change just makes all forms of removal work the same on commanders rather than just exile, destroy, and sacrifice. It basically always added unless it's a commander to the text of those removals before. Now, it just brings bounce and tuck in line with the rest. Tuck was a special exception that got passed over when the rules were written because no one really noticed until years later and there wasn't really any reason you'd ever send your commander to the command zone instead of bouncing until commander decks. Commanders were always supposed to be special. Infact, if the current card pool had somehow existed when commander started, the new rule would have been the rule.
I don't really mind the change, but I'm not all for it, either. I'm just a bit disappointed at how "arms-racey" the rules change seems to be.
The premises are that since there were barely any tuck effects during the time Commander was first made into a format, that the zone change would only apply to exile and the graveyard; and that Since then, many tuck effects were printed to circumvent this. Now that there are significantly more tuck effects, the rule was changed so that the zone change would apply to the library and the hand as well (among other reasons).
But nothing really prevents effects such as "Exile/Destroy/Bounce/Tuck target creature. It can't go into the command zone this turn" in a Commander set or something from being printed to circumvent the tuck- and hand-zone change rules. If such effects are printed the same way tuck effects were printed to circumvent graveyard- and exile-zone change rules, then sooner or later, these new effects would be rendered less useful with another rules change (among other reasons). And then effects to get around those rules could start being printed, and the cycle would never stop.
Granted, assuming the existence of such an "arms race" is a pretty bold thing to do. But if it's happened once, it can surely happen again, depending on how feasible it is. And given Wizards' record over the past year or two, some would argue that the printing of those circumvention effects is entirely feasible.
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How to use card tags (please use them for everybody's sanity)
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format Minimum deck size: 60 Maximum number of identical cards: 4 Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
It's possible but more likely that they'll print more Darksteel Mutation or can't attack you effects. They could even print one with a rancor clause. The doesn't go to the command zone thing could potentially put commanders in some combinations down for good with no recourse like tuck did. So what can mono red or blue do if their commander goes to the graveyard? Of course, no color can ever get it back from exile other than that weird mirror card or Pull From Eternity. Everyone has a ton of ways to bust an enchantment now even if it's inefficient.
Came here not exactly thrilled with the decision, but I'm starting to come around, helped along by all the comments of "whiny noobs just need to build better decks" which feel like the first cousins of condescending remarks about sideways Craw Wurms.
Thing is, the folks talking about Prossh aren't wrong: there are some top-tier commanders that can blitz past the tax, or who will pretty much win the game even the first time they're played, and in these cases, tucking provides an important counterbalance that doesn't just make the game more fair but more fun. Ruzhyo commented (sarcastically) "...losing repeatedly to Food Chain Prossh, MoM Azami, and two-card 'oops I went infinite' Mikaeus is more fun than losing my commander," which I think gets the concern here. If you're rolling up with a Lovisa Coldeyes deck and someone's playing Azami, your commander is probably as good as tucked because you're just going to lose.
And yes, it's possible for the table to take care of it vigilante-style, but the best ways to stop a Maelstrom Wanderer player from ending the game turn 6 will be strategies like mana denial and pre-emptive dogpiling, both of which are uniquely capable of making someone genuinely, real world upset. Another option is bans, either of offensively powerful commanders or the the cards that fuel them, and while there's a solid case to be made for ridding ourselves of things like Food Chain or Mind Over Matter whose sole purpose is usually to win on the spot, making some of the most fun, appealing, badass legendaries unavailable in a format about playing fun, appealing, badass legendaries seems to defeat the purpose. We could, of course, simply accept that EDH will always be a format of many heads, simultaneously trying to foster a casual atmosphere and efficient routes to infinite combos, and the only real solution to make everyone happy would be for playgroups to self-segregate. This, sadly, seems the most likely.
Or!
Okay, this idea is janky and terrible and certainly not new and libertarians will despise it, but:
Commander tax brackets.
To replay better-performing commanders, you have to pay more. Someone counters or kills that Azami? The whole table gets to breathe while the player tries to find 4 more mana. Prossh players scoffing at a measly 2 mana in a token-heavy green deck? Might not be scoffing at 5. Zurgo Bellstriker decks performing poorly? Well, they probably still will, but having a commander tax of only 1 will help.
It's inelegant, yes, requiring a whole bunch of work from the rules committee and some research by the players, but once we have a working document of the brackets, the advent of smartphones will make it pretty easy to refer to even in the middle of a paper game. It won't solve everything, but it might make some of the scarier commander centric decks a little less scary. Which, without tucking, is something we might need.
We could, of course, simply accept that EDH will always be a format of many heads, simultaneously trying to foster a casual atmosphere and efficient routes to infinite combos, and the only real solution to make everyone happy would be for playgroups to self-segregate.
Yeah, I think this is ultimately inevitable with a format like Commander. I've noticed that MOST people who play a lot of commander and have extremely powerful decks usually also have a less competitive deck or 2 that they can break out if necessary. Most people realize when a deck has worn out it's welcome and will shelve it for a bit, or at least only break it out when they see other good decks are about to hit the table. That said, these are only my experiences, and I recognize that my experiences might not hold for everyone.
Commander tax brackets.
To replay better-performing commanders, you have to pay more. Someone counters or kills that Azami? The whole table gets to breathe while the player tries to find 4 more mana. Prossh players scoffing at a measly 2 mana in a token-heavy green deck? Might not be scoffing at 5. Zurgo Bellstriker decks performing poorly? Well, they probably still will, but having a commander tax of only 1 will help.
Heh, it's a cute idea that would never work in the official rules, but if your buddy REALLLLLY loves his Azami deck that he spent forever building it makes for an awesome house rule so that he can play his fave deck without everyone just getting pounded. It could also be something as simple as... for every game you win, commander tax starts @2 higher. So if you win, you either switch decks or your commander tax goes 4-6-8 instead of 2-4-6. Again, an interesting house rule for sure.
Came here not exactly thrilled with the decision, but I'm starting to come around, helped along by all the comments of "whiny noobs just need to build better decks" which feel like the first cousins of condescending remarks about sideways Craw Wurms.
Thing is, the folks talking about Prossh aren't wrong: there are some top-tier commanders that can blitz past the tax, or who will pretty much win the game even the first time they're played, and in these cases, tucking provides an important counterbalance that doesn't just make the game more fair but more fun. Ruzhyo commented (sarcastically) "...losing repeatedly to Food Chain Prossh, MoM Azami, and two-card 'oops I went infinite' Mikaeus is more fun than losing my commander," which I think gets the concern here. If you're rolling up with a Lovisa Coldeyes deck and someone's playing Azami, your commander is probably as good as tucked because you're just going to lose.
And yes, it's possible for the table to take care of it vigilante-style, but the best ways to stop a Maelstrom Wanderer player from ending the game turn 6 will be strategies like mana denial and pre-emptive dogpiling, both of which are uniquely capable of making someone genuinely, real world upset. Another option is bans, either of offensively powerful commanders or the the cards that fuel them, and while there's a solid case to be made for ridding ourselves of things like Food Chain or Mind Over Matter whose sole purpose is usually to win on the spot, making some of the most fun, appealing, badass legendaries unavailable in a format about playing fun, appealing, badass legendaries seems to defeat the purpose. We could, of course, simply accept that EDH will always be a format of many heads, simultaneously trying to foster a casual atmosphere and efficient routes to infinite combos, and the only real solution to make everyone happy would be for playgroups to self-segregate. This, sadly, seems the most likely.
Or!
Okay, this idea is janky and terrible and certainly not new and libertarians will despise it, but:
Commander tax brackets.
To replay better-performing commanders, you have to pay more. Someone counters or kills that Azami? The whole table gets to breathe while the player tries to find 4 more mana. Prossh players scoffing at a measly 2 mana in a token-heavy green deck? Might not be scoffing at 5. Zurgo Bellstriker decks performing poorly? Well, they probably still will, but having a commander tax of only 1 will help.
It's inelegant, yes, requiring a whole bunch of work from the rules committee and some research by the players, but once we have a working document of the brackets, the advent of smartphones will make it pretty easy to refer to even in the middle of a paper game. It won't solve everything, but it might make some of the scarier commander centric decks a little less scary. Which, without tucking, is something we might need.
The format lends to degeneracy and huge difference in power. Even in a fair playgroup, it feels bad when a "fair goodstuff" deck simply overpowers everyone else. And playing degenerate decks is fun when everyone on the table is playing them
Adjusting playgroups and house rules are the best solution.
It's been almost a week now and I've tried to read this thread as careful as possible.
It amazes me how no one (?) have yet to mention this new rule is just a copy of how it's always been in Duel Commander; A competitive format where nothing feels broken or out of balance. We're use to this rule (have been for many years) and it feels fair. The whole point of the format is to always have access to your Commander or Elder Dragon but to see it become more and more difficult to cast as the game progresses. Having it completely removed from your arsenal is not what this format is all about. You can go and play Singleton then.
The fact that many people try and find arguments for why this rule shouldn't change, is not an arrow pointing towards the rule change is bad. It only proves that humans are in general very conservative. And most of the people complaining are only complaining because their own deck suddenly became worse. But they will adapt. I have faith in their deck building skills. To those people I say this: Try out Duel Commander. No Sol Ring (and friends) and no tucking. You'll see why this change was made.
What the Canadian Guy said.
Duel Commander literally holds no interest for me whatsoever. I don't want to play in a format where Force of Will and single-target removal are significantly relevant. I'd rather play Legacy at that point. All it took was three times tuning into Duel Commander streams to not only never want to watch one again, but never play the format in my entire life.
Commander day at my shop is a time for us to decompress at the end of the week. Most of us just got off work for the weekend, we competed in FNM the night before. We shelve the 'watch me smash you, helpless puppet!' and crack jokes, do absurd bs with cards we could never play in any format ever, and see how dumb the board gets before it needs wiping.
Also 'having it removed is not what this format is all about'? Who said that? You? The RC? Tucking is a check against a single opponent out of control. It happens very rarely in my group, but when it does, it's necessary. If the choice is between that player going solitaire on the rest of us and temporarily stifling his Commander from the game, I'll take the tuck any day, even if that means it's done on me. Commander is supposed to be social, that's what the format is about. Not complaining about getting your favorite toy taken away. If that's the attitude that makes this rule make sense, where's the ban on Armageddon? Austere Command? Final Judgment? Obliterate? I don't see a real argument against it at that point. Complete land denial while your opponent pushes a favorable position, or the artifact guy having to start from scratch on turn 25 is no different than having your Commander tucked.
I also have no earthly idea how you can say 'most' people complaining are mad their deck is worse. I've barely seen a single post talking about decks, they've been talking about the format. I make a new deck probably once a month or more, I like new shiny things. And when my new shiny thing is broken to all hell and warps the board state, if it's because of my broken Commander leading the charge, I'm not going to be surprised when someone hits an Oblation. My group in it's entirety already agreed the rule is bs and decided not to adopt it.
As a matter of curiosity, what's the flavor of the Commander being able to go to the command zone rather than dying? "*Hero's Downfall* Death's cold hoof crushes me... return me to the command tent, I'll recover there." I feel like understanding the flavor of that interaction will make the tuck issue easier to understand.
One thought I had in relation to this was The Batman (or Zorro or Mandalore). The Commander is not so much an individual* as it is an idea, a Symbol for the rest of the deck to rally behind. When the current individual is destroyed, exiled, tucked or bounced, the Symbol returns to the command zone, waiting for a new individual to take up the mantle and be the Commander.
*Despite, of course, being an individual as defined by Magic: a Legendary Creature (or Planeswalker).
As a matter of curiosity, what's the flavor of the Commander being able to go to the command zone rather than dying? "*Hero's Downfall* Death's cold hoof crushes me... return me to the command tent, I'll recover there." I feel like understanding the flavor of that interaction will make the tuck issue easier to understand.
I wouldn't go looking for the flavor to make sense there, it's a rule made purely for functional reasons. If it's important to you, I guess you could say that your general is some kind of immortal god-like character that can resurrect indefinitely, but tucking is some kind of imprisonment/teleport spell.
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Well here is my veiw of the situation as someone who hasn't played commander.
Commander shrugs off death (removal spells/lethal damage) & removal from reality (exile). Players reaction-accepted with no problem.
Commander reconstructs itself after being broken back down into aether (tucking). Players reaction-become raging hatefilled goblins.
If the fun aspect of Commander is that you build a deck with a legend in mind and the rules are there so you always have acess to it why is an exception thats only in two colors ok? The whole point of the format is to build zany deck that you want to build but are telling people who want to build a BR deck to splash blue or white to deal with certain commanders. Thats going against what the format was about. Its just people being hypicritical by telling others to build there decks better and not adjusting to the new rule themselves.
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
Commander has damn-near died at my shop. We've started our first Commander League since the rule change and noone signed up, which is odd since we've had at least a dozen people per league, if not more. The handful of people I've talked to cited the rule change and how it makes the compeitive nature of the League miserable, especially with Prossh, Animar, and Kaalia players around. I'm not sure if the rule change alone was responsible for the exodus of EDH players from my LGS, but it's become hard even starting a casual game. It's a shame; Commander's my favorite format.
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Doom Blade still 'kills' the Commander. Oblivion Ring still exiles the Commander. Oblation no longer does what is printed on the card. Boomerang now gives your opponent the option to be a kill spell? Where is the elegance or intuition in that?
1998-1999 X 2001-2003 X 2008 X 2012-Present
Commander/EDH
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind UR
Tajic, Blade of the Legion RW
As someone who does agree with the rules change, I'll have to say that I'm actually surprised that not even more people are outraged with the change. The thing is that whenever a sudden change is made in any case in life, the natural reaction is to resist it no matter how it may benefit the greater good in the long run (of course, only time will tell whether this change would affect the game positively, negatively, or barely at all). Since the news of this change did come out of left field, it doesn't give the human psyche enough time to acclimatize to it. This is in contrast to a more routine change such as your yearly standard rotations where people expect the environment to change all the time. My prediction is that people will eventually calm down after awhile just like what happened to removing damage on the stack.
What? Oblivion Ring doesn't exile the Commander, Doom Blade doesn't kill the Commander. They just send it to the Command Zone. Having Boomerang send to the Command Zone is actually closer to its original functionality than the other two spells, because it gets to be cast again from there.
It is worth noting that polls which are largely based on emotional opinions will be skewed. The dissenters are often more vocal than those who agree, so it is no surprise that those who oppose this change will be ahead in the poll. Once the anger dies down and we have all had a proper chance to experience the new meta, I plan on doing another poll. As for linking to an offsite poll here, I will not speak for the RM mods, but we allowed it on the Commander forums. If it is on topic and not solicitous in nature, I don't see a problem, but as I said, I'm not a RM mod.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Also of note, is that this poll is not a random sampling (not even to speak of things like sample size or voting multiple times...), so I don't know how accurate it could be.
Already, after a few days, the anger has died down immensely. Give it a month, and it will be even less.
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Oh I quite agree. As drakelordphil pointed out, it was a *****storm on the Commander forums that first 24 hours, and the official site was WAY worse (imagine the posts we had only without the fear of mod reprimand). Now we're at the point to where we can civil discussions from each side, and it looks like Sheldon is slowly getting ready to peek his head up from behind the bunker. (It is worth noting for anyone who might say "it's his job" or something similar, that both he and Papa Funk have been quite active on the official forums.)
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
getting swapped for Darksteel Mutation and Desertion?
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
The metagame will adapt and move on, but we lost a unique interaction in the format.
I feel like if they removed the graveyard zone (no more graveyard recursion) or made a special rule about only being able to draw one card on your draw step (no more card draw).
Awful.
Doom Blade does not 'kill' the commander. It does not go to the graveyard and will not trigger any death triggers. Oblivion Ring does not exile the commander. If the Oblivion Ring is destroyed, the commander will not return to the battlefield if it was put into the command zone.
This is how replacement effects work. They change what other cards do.
"You can tell how dumb someone is by how they use Mary Sue"
Then when I open the thread and read about EDH players infuriated over "NO MORE TUCKING," I think, "EDH players like to tuck!?!?"
Ew.
Infraction for inappropriate content
-ktkenshinx-
Is this actually true?
Feel free to tell me yours!
The premises are that since there were barely any tuck effects during the time Commander was first made into a format, that the zone change would only apply to exile and the graveyard; and that Since then, many tuck effects were printed to circumvent this. Now that there are significantly more tuck effects, the rule was changed so that the zone change would apply to the library and the hand as well (among other reasons).
But nothing really prevents effects such as "Exile/Destroy/Bounce/Tuck target creature. It can't go into the command zone this turn" in a Commander set or something from being printed to circumvent the tuck- and hand-zone change rules. If such effects are printed the same way tuck effects were printed to circumvent graveyard- and exile-zone change rules, then sooner or later, these new effects would be rendered less useful with another rules change (among other reasons). And then effects to get around those rules could start being printed, and the cycle would never stop.
Granted, assuming the existence of such an "arms race" is a pretty bold thing to do. But if it's happened once, it can surely happen again, depending on how feasible it is. And given Wizards' record over the past year or two, some would argue that the printing of those circumvention effects is entirely feasible.
[c]Lightning Bolt[/c] -> Lightning Bolt
[c=Lightning Bolt]Apple Pie[/c] -> Apple Pie
Vowels-Only Format
Minimum deck size: 60
Maximum number of identical cards: 4
Ban list: Cards whose English names begin with a consonant, Unglued and Unhinged cards, cards involving ante, Ancestral Recall
Thing is, the folks talking about Prossh aren't wrong: there are some top-tier commanders that can blitz past the tax, or who will pretty much win the game even the first time they're played, and in these cases, tucking provides an important counterbalance that doesn't just make the game more fair but more fun. Ruzhyo commented (sarcastically) "...losing repeatedly to Food Chain Prossh, MoM Azami, and two-card 'oops I went infinite' Mikaeus is more fun than losing my commander," which I think gets the concern here. If you're rolling up with a Lovisa Coldeyes deck and someone's playing Azami, your commander is probably as good as tucked because you're just going to lose.
And yes, it's possible for the table to take care of it vigilante-style, but the best ways to stop a Maelstrom Wanderer player from ending the game turn 6 will be strategies like mana denial and pre-emptive dogpiling, both of which are uniquely capable of making someone genuinely, real world upset. Another option is bans, either of offensively powerful commanders or the the cards that fuel them, and while there's a solid case to be made for ridding ourselves of things like Food Chain or Mind Over Matter whose sole purpose is usually to win on the spot, making some of the most fun, appealing, badass legendaries unavailable in a format about playing fun, appealing, badass legendaries seems to defeat the purpose. We could, of course, simply accept that EDH will always be a format of many heads, simultaneously trying to foster a casual atmosphere and efficient routes to infinite combos, and the only real solution to make everyone happy would be for playgroups to self-segregate. This, sadly, seems the most likely.
Or!
Okay, this idea is janky and terrible and certainly not new and libertarians will despise it, but:
Commander tax brackets.
To replay better-performing commanders, you have to pay more. Someone counters or kills that Azami? The whole table gets to breathe while the player tries to find 4 more mana. Prossh players scoffing at a measly 2 mana in a token-heavy green deck? Might not be scoffing at 5. Zurgo Bellstriker decks performing poorly? Well, they probably still will, but having a commander tax of only 1 will help.
It's inelegant, yes, requiring a whole bunch of work from the rules committee and some research by the players, but once we have a working document of the brackets, the advent of smartphones will make it pretty easy to refer to even in the middle of a paper game. It won't solve everything, but it might make some of the scarier commander centric decks a little less scary. Which, without tucking, is something we might need.
Yeah, I think this is ultimately inevitable with a format like Commander. I've noticed that MOST people who play a lot of commander and have extremely powerful decks usually also have a less competitive deck or 2 that they can break out if necessary. Most people realize when a deck has worn out it's welcome and will shelve it for a bit, or at least only break it out when they see other good decks are about to hit the table. That said, these are only my experiences, and I recognize that my experiences might not hold for everyone.
Heh, it's a cute idea that would never work in the official rules, but if your buddy REALLLLLY loves his Azami deck that he spent forever building it makes for an awesome house rule so that he can play his fave deck without everyone just getting pounded. It could also be something as simple as... for every game you win, commander tax starts @2 higher. So if you win, you either switch decks or your commander tax goes 4-6-8 instead of 2-4-6. Again, an interesting house rule for sure.
The format lends to degeneracy and huge difference in power. Even in a fair playgroup, it feels bad when a "fair goodstuff" deck simply overpowers everyone else. And playing degenerate decks is fun when everyone on the table is playing them
Adjusting playgroups and house rules are the best solution.
What the Canadian Guy said.
Duel Commander literally holds no interest for me whatsoever. I don't want to play in a format where Force of Will and single-target removal are significantly relevant. I'd rather play Legacy at that point. All it took was three times tuning into Duel Commander streams to not only never want to watch one again, but never play the format in my entire life.
Commander day at my shop is a time for us to decompress at the end of the week. Most of us just got off work for the weekend, we competed in FNM the night before. We shelve the 'watch me smash you, helpless puppet!' and crack jokes, do absurd bs with cards we could never play in any format ever, and see how dumb the board gets before it needs wiping.
Also 'having it removed is not what this format is all about'? Who said that? You? The RC? Tucking is a check against a single opponent out of control. It happens very rarely in my group, but when it does, it's necessary. If the choice is between that player going solitaire on the rest of us and temporarily stifling his Commander from the game, I'll take the tuck any day, even if that means it's done on me. Commander is supposed to be social, that's what the format is about. Not complaining about getting your favorite toy taken away. If that's the attitude that makes this rule make sense, where's the ban on Armageddon? Austere Command? Final Judgment? Obliterate? I don't see a real argument against it at that point. Complete land denial while your opponent pushes a favorable position, or the artifact guy having to start from scratch on turn 25 is no different than having your Commander tucked.
I also have no earthly idea how you can say 'most' people complaining are mad their deck is worse. I've barely seen a single post talking about decks, they've been talking about the format. I make a new deck probably once a month or more, I like new shiny things. And when my new shiny thing is broken to all hell and warps the board state, if it's because of my broken Commander leading the charge, I'm not going to be surprised when someone hits an Oblation. My group in it's entirety already agreed the rule is bs and decided not to adopt it.
One thought I had in relation to this was The Batman (or Zorro or Mandalore). The Commander is not so much an individual* as it is an idea, a Symbol for the rest of the deck to rally behind. When the current individual is destroyed, exiled, tucked or bounced, the Symbol returns to the command zone, waiting for a new individual to take up the mantle and be the Commander.
*Despite, of course, being an individual as defined by Magic: a Legendary Creature (or Planeswalker).
Standard: UGB Hardened Skulker
Commander:
GWU Jenara, Asura of War
WUBRG Progenitus / Allies
UBR Scry / Mill
WUB Dakkon Landfall
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Commander shrugs off death (removal spells/lethal damage) & removal from reality (exile). Players reaction-accepted with no problem.
Commander reconstructs itself after being broken back down into aether (tucking). Players reaction-become raging hatefilled goblins.
If the fun aspect of Commander is that you build a deck with a legend in mind and the rules are there so you always have acess to it why is an exception thats only in two colors ok? The whole point of the format is to build zany deck that you want to build but are telling people who want to build a BR deck to splash blue or white to deal with certain commanders. Thats going against what the format was about. Its just people being hypicritical by telling others to build there decks better and not adjusting to the new rule themselves.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B