I spent two years trying to build Birthing Pod and it was all for naught... starting with my second ever deck built from an event deck. When Modern Masters came out with all the cards I needed to build a working Melira pod deck I got most of it over the weeks MM was around, I traded my hard won FNM promo's for Kitchen finks I couldn't afford the mana base, or the voices or Linvala but I got a bunch of 2 or less toughness creatures and I combo'ed off. I am sad really sad.
Birthing pod is my favourite card and its gone...birthing pod was the most interesting deck and WotC killed it.
what do I do now?.. I don't have a deck any more... I can't afford a new one. All the pros all smug with thier unlimited resources, "Its best for the format" it wont be if we all leave the format because we don't have a deck any more. I can't get another deck, my resources went into this one. I have no gofys no lilana's no Snapcasters, no Cryptics or bitterblossoms no Remands no serum visions no damnation no ensaring bridge no nothing to build a deck from any more.
Herp derp play some kind of junk midrange, my deck was melira pod.... it had 3 combo's in it and it tried to achieve them as fast as possible, it was not "value" pod it was combo pod, I have at best one of every good card, I need to spend three times as much money to rebuild a deck in a similar way.... but I don't want to build a similar deck, I don't even like midrange that was why I was trying to escape standard, I hate being at the mercy of the top of my deck I needed X but only drew Y... Birthing pod allowed me to turn X into Y so I didn't sit there with the wrong thing at the wrong time all the time. Screw you variance.
Birthing pod got better the more cards there were in the format, I get it... but that should mean there are better cards for all decks and the powerlevel of the format should rise. Birthing Pod was the heart of modern, a three card combo from creatures with under 3 toughness that didn't get going until after 4 that is what it should be and what modern should be but nope... WotC decided to kill it instead.
I spent two years trying to build Birthing Pod and it was all for naught... starting with my second ever deck built from an event deck. When Modern Masters came out with all the cards I needed to build a working Melira pod deck I got most of it over the weeks MM was around, I traded my hard won FNM promo's for Kitchen finks I couldn't afford the mana base, or the voices or Linvala but I got a bunch of 2 or less toughness creatures and I combo'ed off. I am sad really sad.
Birthing pod is my favourite card and its gone...birthing pod was the most interesting deck and WotC killed it.
what do I do now?.. I don't have a deck any more... I can't afford a new one. All the pros all smug with thier unlimited resources, "Its best for the format" it wont be if we all leave the format because we don't have a deck any more. I can't get another deck, my resources went into this one. I have no gofys no lilana's no Snapcasters, no Cryptics or bitterblossoms no Remands no serum visions no damnation no ensaring bridge no nothing to build a deck from any more.
Herp derp play some kind of junk midrange, my deck was melira pod.... it had 3 combo's in it and it tried to achieve them as fast as possible, it was not "value" pod it was combo pod, I have at best one of every good card, I need to spend three times as much money to rebuild a deck in a similar way.... but I don't want to build a similar deck, I don't even like midrange that was why I was trying to escape standard, I hate being at the mercy of the top of my deck I needed X but only drew Y... Birthing pod allowed me to turn X into Y so I didn't sit there with the wrong thing at the wrong time all the time. Screw you variance.
Birthing pod got better the more cards there were in the format, I get it... but that should mean there are better cards for all decks and the powerlevel of the format should rise. Birthing Pod was the heart of modern, a three card combo from creatures with under 3 toughness that didn't get going until after 4 that is what it should be and what modern should be but nope... WotC decided to kill it instead.
I feel a little bad seeing as I know a few people who just finished pod decks. It seems a little weird to me banning pod but like every one else has said it was a bit of a problem but I never found it so bad I couldn't deal with it but I guess that's just me. None of the other bans are a surprise though, I personally thought TC and DTT would have been banned sooner. They gave me the same feel I got during original Mirrodin standard with skullclamp and Disciple of the vault, kind of glad they are gone actually.
In what universe? If you build a deck like that, and ever draw that hand, I will personally come to wherever you live, perform complicated acts of awestruck ********, then disembowel myself to escape the world that allowed something like this to occur and validate you.
While I have already stated that I believe none of this is surprising I was thinking that the next Modern Event Deck, if there will be another one, would have been Pod, but I guess that is not going to happen.
I spent two years trying to build Birthing Pod and it was all for naught... starting with my second ever deck built from an event deck. When Modern Masters came out with all the cards I needed to build a working Melira pod deck I got most of it over the weeks MM was around, I traded my hard won FNM promo's for Kitchen finks I couldn't afford the mana base, or the voices or Linvala but I got a bunch of 2 or less toughness creatures and I combo'ed off. I am sad really sad.
Birthing pod is my favourite card and its gone...birthing pod was the most interesting deck and WotC killed it.
what do I do now?.. I don't have a deck any more... I can't afford a new one. All the pros all smug with thier unlimited resources, "Its best for the format" it wont be if we all leave the format because we don't have a deck any more. I can't get another deck, my resources went into this one. I have no gofys no lilana's no Snapcasters, no Cryptics or bitterblossoms no Remands no serum visions no damnation no ensaring bridge no nothing to build a deck from any more.
Herp derp play some kind of junk midrange, my deck was melira pod.... it had 3 combo's in it and it tried to achieve them as fast as possible, it was not "value" pod it was combo pod, I have at best one of every good card, I need to spend three times as much money to rebuild a deck in a similar way.... but I don't want to build a similar deck, I don't even like midrange that was why I was trying to escape standard, I hate being at the mercy of the top of my deck I needed X but only drew Y... Birthing pod allowed me to turn X into Y so I didn't sit there with the wrong thing at the wrong time all the time. Screw you variance.
Birthing pod got better the more cards there were in the format, I get it... but that should mean there are better cards for all decks and the powerlevel of the format should rise. Birthing Pod was the heart of modern, a three card combo from creatures with under 3 toughness that didn't get going until after 4 that is what it should be and what modern should be but nope... WotC decided to kill it instead.
*rage quit*
If Birthing Pod were relegated to Melira Pod, we possibly wouldn't be having a conversation at all about the banning. Equally, I think say that the Melira Pod combo being creatures with 3 toughness (or less) is a tad bit disingenuous. The reason that is usually relevant is it is susceptible to Lightning Bolt. The problem is that both Redcap and Finks are not at all susceptible to Bolt in the usual sense. The only part of the combo which is susceptible to Bolt is Melira herself and the sac outlets (One of which completely negates Lightning bolt, for "free", at instant speed), which the deck can rather easily work around. This is not saying much about how potent it was in the format, only that it's rather disingenous to try and argue the deck is a 3-card combo deck based around creatures. You are failing to mention that it is a 3-card combo deck with an incredibly efficient tutor, at least one piece you get is resilient, and can continue to combo off at instant speed once the pieces are in place. On the one hand, you give a much more "fair" sounding description by omitting the details of how it works. When you actually break it down, you start to understand the problematic nature of Pod.
That all said, Melira Pod is moreso a victim of other decks using Pod. To be blunt, there is no singular ban they could have done other than Pod to really affect those decks and the rather degenerate boardstates Pod can create. The problem was laid out rather clearly by them: Simple put, Pod can't get worse. It will only get better as they print more creatures. Even if they banned every single other piece in Pod decks from the format, eventually Pod will rise again with ever increasing new tools. Equally, without rather specific hate cards printed it is difficult to deal with. And if they printed said cards, Modern would start to devolve into Pod vs. Pod hate. At least in their belief.
Equally, Melira Pod may still live on in Melira Chord. Granted, the deck usually ran some number to begin with, but 4x Chord is likely the new base. It won't be as consistent as Pod, but the deck isn't likely to be completely and utterly destroyed. That said, I can see it becoming less viable. Time will tell on it.
To be short: The Melira Combo wasn't the problem. Pod was. It's an incredibly efficient tutor that lets you cheat the tutored creatures into play. The combo pieces exist still, and an instant speed tutor effect is present. It doesn't have the resilient and repeatable tutor in the way of Pod anymore.
Pod getting banned will turn out to be a good thing. Dinging a deck type does not shake things up enough to create a void filled by many new ideas. Banning the heart of a deck does create a large void that for a while will allow a plethora of decks to pop up. I personally plan to brew more decks than a beer factory brews beer.
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All your base are belong to us!
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
You just backed up my argument: pod would be fine power-level wise on a faster format.
I quoted you because you put it on the same level as Stoneforge Mystic, which is a far more powerful card. No, you didn't say it was unbeatable, and I never said you did. I apologize if you found my quoting somehow offensive.
It honestly would. I find it rather intriguing that people want the power level similar to legacy, and turn 2-3 combos to be present, but then bemoan a card like Pod (Which has started to choke the format) being banned as evidence of this. The problem is that it's paradoxical; a faster format means that Pod would not be viable. The only reason Pod existed in modern to begin with is because the format is kept "unnaturally" slow.
That said, I think the format could use a card like Daze or Force of Will. Unfortunately with [c]Delver[/b] being a thing, that will never happen. Giving a tempo deck a free counterspell would secure it's dominance, just as giving it an effective Ancestral Recall nearly did. I doubt Delver will ever be banned, however it is annoyingly restricting the design space of future sets. Or maybe it will. The current quick-banning of Treasure Cruise could give them pause on it's existence in Modern; if even a single, seemingly innocuous, card was enough to rocket it up to Tier 1 contender, there is something wrong. It is being artificially held at bay, really, and is another card that only gets better the more cards that are printed (As there will never be a better card than it printed). It's an unsustainable sort of situation in the long-run.
I'm not shocked, just a bit sad to see a complete strategy leave. Of course it deserved the ban.
Yes, Mystic has some similarities to pod, but the argument "Stoneforge and Pod do much the same [...] is too similar for comfort to a card already on the banned list" sounds like "that effect is just too risky to leave unbanned". Maybe you didn’t want to say that, but don’t be surprised some people find them similar.
For the Ban, I'm hoping they didn't just give out Yisan as the replacement. A replacement that had a meaningful cost would likely be all that you need. The problem is that Phyrexian Mana means you can cheat both on the casting cost *and* color requirement; a straight 2 activation cost would possibly be more than enough. Had Pod been printed as a "normal" card it would still be good enough in general while not near dominating and almost overly oppressive.
As for the Stoneforge and Pod comparison, it's that both are very efficient at what they do; likely too much so. Stoneforge is the extreme example, but can actually sort of be kept in check simpler in a hypothetical world (It is, of course, impossible to do over the long run; you can only go so long before you print a very potent equipment after all). Pod is far more innocuous, and a bit less extreme, but also stands to more quickly gain new tools at that. The issue with Stoneforge is that it already had its tools in Modern to begin with, and thus was broken from the onset. Pod has slowly been gaining its tools, and each year it becomes more readily apparent that something just doesn't sit right with the card itself.
But that's neither here nor there; rather that the comparison between the two to a certain degree foreshadowed Pod's banning. Tutors are always treated with caution, as they enable combo a bit too well. Cheating cards into play is treated with even more caution, as it allows one to avoid some of the more meaningful costs built into the game. Having one or the other being extremely efficient is cause for some concern. Much like Stoneforge however, Pod had both tutoring and cheating cards into play, and at an extremely efficient cost.
I would say that Tutoring and cheating a card into play isn't necessarily too strong in and of itself. But, once again, the issue with Pod is similar to the issue with Stoneforge: Not only do they tutor up the card you need, they also cheat the card into play, and at a very low and efficient cost at that. I feel the effects of both could be properly costed. Just that neither is. Stoneforge is obviously a bit worse a problem than pod, but that doesn't make Pod "safe"(Which you address).
Once again, I am going to blame Phyrexian Mana. The mechanic, while cool, was largely a mistake. A huge number of cards have proven to be widely problematic, or at least exceedingly powerful, because of it. Reducing both the cost and the color requirement is just a tad bit ridiculous on many cards.
And WoTC wonders why variants of The Rock always end up being the best deck in modern.
Hmm.... maybe because you ban everything else into oblivion, and the Rock is just a pile of good cards, so it's the one deck that doesn't really care about any particular ban?
Technically, I had Pod built, (I have birthing pods from standard and kept them for commander decks... everything else is basically expensive one-ofs that I also have for commander decks) but I never bothered to spent the enormous amount of time needed to really learn and master the deck because I could see this coming from a mile away. (I chose to spent my time on Junk instead, which has now payed dividends).
With every banning, it becomes more clear that WoTC has no idea how to properly manage an eternal format, and legacy's success has been more a result of their ignoring it then anything else.
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Commmander - Eight-and-a-Half Tails; Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; Prime Speaker Zegana; Alesha, Who Smiles at Death; Daxos the Returned; Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest; Patron of the Moonfolk; Animar, Soul of Elements
And WoTC wonders why variants of The Rock always end up being the best deck in modern.
Hmm.... maybe because you ban everything else into oblivion, and the Rock is just a pile of good cards, so it's the one deck that doesn't really care about any particular ban?
Technically, I had Pod built, (I have birthing pods from standard and kept them for commander decks... everything else is basically expensive one-ofs that I also have for commander decks) but I never bothered to spent the enormous amount of time needed to really learn and master the deck because I could see this coming from a mile away. (I chose to spent my time on Junk instead, which has now payed dividends).
With every banning, it becomes more clear that WoTC has no idea how to properly manage an eternal format, and legacy's success has been more a result of their ignoring it then anything else.
I agree. I'm glad I sold a big portion of my foiled out Pod deck a month ago because I wasn't playing near as much as I should and I still feel bad for the Pod players out there.
You could say Wizards should have a watch list on cards, but after what they have done with Pod that would probably only cause more insecurity in players to get into the format. They should have banned this a long time ago before it gained the popularity they had. They don't know how to manage an eternal format.
comparing those creatures to DRS makes no sense. you know why DRS got banned? because it was a swiss army knife that did too much for one card. none of those other creatures you listed do more than one thing, which is why they won't get banned. goyf and delver are very efficient beaters. confidant is a card drawing engine. pyromancer is a good tempo card.
that said, i think unbanning DRS and not banning dig would have been pretty cool because DRS would slow down the delving significantly and blunt the lifeloss from delver decks all at the same time.
as for the other cards you listed, they are good but they do not allow for the same kind of comebacks that pod provided. each of those spells is 'all or nothing' in that if you get one to resolve you are probably going to win. however, with pod it didn't matter if you had an empty board with a pod out because it was very possible to just topdeck any creature and claw your way back into the game using the value generated from it and take over from there. also, none of those spells came down on turn 2 as pod often did.
i will say that i didn't think a ban was entirely necessary but the ever increasing potential of a card like pod with new, powerful creatures getting printed was hard to ignore.
I dont see how you can just take the pods out play four other creatures and still have a decent deck. Pod still won games when it did not draw pod. It just takes a lot of its inevitability away.
I spent two years trying to build Birthing Pod and it was all for naught... starting with my second ever deck built from an event deck. When Modern Masters came out with all the cards I needed to build a working Melira pod deck I got most of it over the weeks MM was around, I traded my hard won FNM promo's for Kitchen finks I couldn't afford the mana base, or the voices or Linvala but I got a bunch of 2 or less toughness creatures and I combo'ed off. I am sad really sad.
Birthing pod is my favourite card and its gone...birthing pod was the most interesting deck and WotC killed it.
what do I do now?.. I don't have a deck any more... I can't afford a new one. All the pros all smug with thier unlimited resources, "Its best for the format" it wont be if we all leave the format because we don't have a deck any more. I can't get another deck, my resources went into this one. I have no gofys no lilana's no Snapcasters, no Cryptics or bitterblossoms no Remands no serum visions no damnation no ensaring bridge no nothing to build a deck from any more.
Herp derp play some kind of junk midrange, my deck was melira pod.... it had 3 combo's in it and it tried to achieve them as fast as possible, it was not "value" pod it was combo pod, I have at best one of every good card, I need to spend three times as much money to rebuild a deck in a similar way.... but I don't want to build a similar deck, I don't even like midrange that was why I was trying to escape standard, I hate being at the mercy of the top of my deck I needed X but only drew Y... Birthing pod allowed me to turn X into Y so I didn't sit there with the wrong thing at the wrong time all the time. Screw you variance.
Birthing pod got better the more cards there were in the format, I get it... but that should mean there are better cards for all decks and the powerlevel of the format should rise. Birthing Pod was the heart of modern, a three card combo from creatures with under 3 toughness that didn't get going until after 4 that is what it should be and what modern should be but nope... WotC decided to kill it instead.
*rage quit*
Magic, like plenty of other entertainment form, is not for the poor.
They should really reprint Tarmogoyf at rare in Modern Masters. The fact that those boosterpacks are so expensive at MRSP means that if they print it at mythic, nothing will happen, if anything it will go up even more in price. If they put it at rare below all the Zendikar/Scars/Innistrad staples, only then there will be an effect.
No Tarmogoyf should be moved to uncommon. he is not broken in limited.
Pod was fine for more than 3 years and all of a sudden, it's not? Maybe Wizards should stop printing stupidly overpowered cards like Siege Rhino, instead of screwing over countless players of their time and money.
Pod was fine for more than 3 years and all of a sudden, it's not? Maybe Wizards should stop printing stupidly overpowered cards like Siege Rhino, instead of screwing over countless players of their time and money.
Siege Rhino is not overpowered. It matched up very well with Delver, particularly Young Pyromancer tokens, and had an ETB trigger that fit naturally into Pod's curve. Without the omnipresence of Delver, Pod could have in all likelihood stuck to its combo base and ignored Rhino, but we'll never really know.
If anything, they should've banned Treasure Cruise only and waiting another 3 months to see what the format looked like then. I suspect that Pod would've dropped off to some extent because decks that were suppressed by Delver would've been allowed to come back out and play, many of which preyed on Pod and kept it at acceptable levels for the years it was legal. Instead, they banned both, so that's what we're left with.
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Currently playing:
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
I'm not going to pretend that there aren't differing opinions, I'm just going to point out that this line of argument is fruitless. I don't agree with you and nothing you can say will change that.
DRS got played because it's the only one-drop in those colors that isn't a discard spell or a mana dork. It's strong, certainly, but no stronger than any of the other cards listed. Well, aside from Bob I suppose.
And that's the point.
The card didn't break the "format rules", such as they are, is the textbook definition of a fair card and didn't push out any alternatives (perhaps, at least in part, because there are none).
It's a non-oppressive format staple that got banned just because.
That means anything goes and I would caution against trying to convince yourself of anything else.
Whatever argument could be scrounged up to defend the other cards I mentioned could be applied in some fashion to DRS or Pod, and with perfect hindsight already have been.
There are no sacred cows.
Possibly aside from Lightning Bolt, because that's a truly oppressive and format-defining card that never seems to go away.
I'm sorry, but whether you believe it or not, you're absolutely dead wrong. And if you were 'watching' the format at the time of the bannings and not playing at the time, you can't really understand just how oppressive he was to deckbuilding. Graveyard interaction was almost pointless, as he could wipe out anything meaningful before it could be made use of, or in response to trying to make use of it. That's everything from their own early ramp, to reanimation targets, to Snapcaster flashbacks, to Scavenging Ooze counters. No one card should be able to do that much for 1 mana and be splashable in 2 heavily played colors that also happen to pair amazingly well, historically. You were literally building your decks back then knowing he's the boogeyman that stifled some of your deck design space.
Even if he was a 1/2 for 1 Relic of Progenitus that could target a specific card, it's stifling. The other abilities tacked on were just over the top.
That said, I don't understand the logic behind these bannings. Delver has a right to exist as a deck type. Yes, T Cruise does make it and other decks maybe a little 'too good', but the reasoning behind DTT is paper-thin. Decks that run Cruise will just replace it with Dig? Because it's the same card? Because it does the same thing? Because it's costs the same? Because it draws the same number of cards? Give me a break.
And as far as Pod, I just have been watching this and other threads, and it does seem there's a consensus of this may have either been premature, or shouldn't have been done at all. I'd be in that camp, as well. I don't see how 5/12 GP wins equates to a deck stifling the format. The same tools and toys in most sideboards for affinity apply to Pod as well. Pod was almost auto-lose versus Tron decks, it was extremely skill-intensive and was by and large a 'fair' deck. Removing an entire archetype from the format is, quite honestly, appalling at best, irresponsible at worst. Modern prices have become a bar to entry into a format that keeps getting higher as time goes on, and now you're taking an existing archetype made up of 3 distinctly different decks, out of people's hands with no warning whatsoever. The prices on some of their cards tank, and their ability to trade the deck away into a down payment on a new one is crippled.
Pod banning more than anything else has just disgusted me with WotC's handling of my favorite format.
don't go deaf listening to yourself in your echo chamber. if you respond to dissenting views by saying i'm right and you're wrong and that's it, lurking is probably a good thing for you to continue doing.
bolt is the quintessential red card. red would not be nearly as viable without it. again, this is a staple, that's all it is. it does not do anything strong enough to be banned.
When it comes to Birthing Pod decks, I can see it both ways.
As a more casual player that will show up to a Modern Tournament every now and then, I can agree with the thought that it has caused a huge set back to those who can't or don't wish to spend a lot of money on a deck that is at least minimally competitive. Those who went "all-in" for a Pod deck are completely shut out until they can muster the funds for something else... which is indeed less likely since the value of their current collection just took a dive.
But, I can also see that this would have eventually happened anyway. Pod was a single card - not just a deck archetype - that is uniquely able to grow in efficiency over time with an ever-growing pool from which to pull. Most decks have to make sacrifices and leave out older options completely in order to move in the new gems. Pod does not suffer from that problem in the same way (if at all). Pod is a bunch of 1-to-2-of inclusions anyway that uses its sideboard to much greater effect due to the tutoring nature of Birthing Pod itself. So, when the newest, best option comes out, you have multiple options: 1.) you can take the older option out completely and just stick the new one in, 2.) you can put the new one and just slide that old 1-of into the sideboard in place of a lesser, situational option, or 3.) slide the new one into the sideboard for redundancy in whatever need it fills.
So, when people on here comment about its ever-growing power. They are correct. This is not the same as any other archetype. You cannot generalize it with others. Pod is unique and capable of much more utility than ANY other deck archetype, and with a high rate of efficiency. A rate of 5/12 IS format defining. That means that if 24 people show up, 10 have it and 14 do not. That means 50% of your Meta is trying to beat just one deck archetype. Anything over 1/3 of your format consisting of 1 deck is danger zone territory. It's reach to over 40% of the GP victories is not healthy for the format. Especially when Pod is doing this while UR Delver is "dominating."
The truth is that there are 2 problems (The other being Treasure Cruise) and WotC has to deal with both at the same time for different reasons. They are in a no-win scenario... damned if you do... damned if you don't. Had WotC waited to ban Pod when things finally reached a tipping point (as if 5/12 GP's isn't a tipping point), most of the people on here would be cursing them for "not having seen this sooner." Let's wait a while to see how the format adjusts before we start judging them.
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Anybody who thinks the pod ban in unreasonable either plays pod or doesnt play modern.
I think the Pod ban is unreasonable.
I don't play Pod.
I do play Modern.
Thoughts?
You are, of course, entitled to your opinions, but there are more than two kinds of people.
My thoughts are that you ignored every other point I made, because it helps you feel 'correct'. Even though you are not.
My thought is that you made a ridiculous and hyperbolic statement which undermines your credibility and the points you made.
My final thoughts on the banlist are: it made sense to ban Birthing Pod if you were banning Treasure Cruise, but not unban anything else (or at least anything that will see play...). I'm not saying they had to or should have done it, just that it makes sense. On the other hand, this banlist was really a crossroads where Wizards got to choose between trying to power up the format and get it one step closer to self-regulation, but instead they keep it in an artificial state of balance which is much more unstable. In the long run, this is likely come back to bite them, but it makes sense as a short term decision. Hopefully with the two-block paradigm and Modern Masters (possibly to introduce new cards) we can get more diverse and powerful cards in Modern, and they can slowly reverse the banlist, but if they follow this trajectory, I am afraid that it will hurt the format, and the banlist will turn into a witch hunt where we go after whatever is winning.
That said, I don't understand the logic behind these bannings. Delver has a right to exist as a deck type. Yes, T Cruise does make it and other decks maybe a little 'too good', but the reasoning behind DTT is paper-thin. Decks that run Cruise will just replace it with Dig? Because it's the same card? Because it does the same thing? Because it's costs the same? Because it draws the same number of cards? Give me a break.
That was only part of the reason, however the consistency it provided combo decks already was likely the straw that broke the back. It's not that Dig is a direct replacement for cruise, only that it is a suitable replacement more than likely as well as being a very potent combo enabler already. It would be a tad incongruous to leave Dig, which could replace Cruise to some extent, while banning Cruise as Dig is already seeing play in certain decks anyway. The effect is just to much for where they want Modern to be.
And as far as Pod, I just have been watching this and other threads, and it does seem there's a consensus of this may have either been premature, or shouldn't have been done at all.
That is not at all true. The Pod players have come out in droves decrying it, and the vast majority of non-pod players have either been supportive of the decision, ambivalent towards it, or silent on the issue.
Over 50% agree with the changes, with a significant portion (16.5%) strongly agreeing with it. Compared to 36.4% disagreeing with the changes. And the remainder (9%) being ambivalent. This is from the actual Modern subforum. Granted, the poll is not all encompassing, and hardly the be-all end-all, but in the subforum dedicated to the format, it seems that a majority of players are perfectly fine with the bannings. It is a false assumption to say that most people disagree with based on the seeming number of posts by angry player; this does not give you an accurate picture at all of the actual support for or against the banning, as the people who are more likely to post about are those who dislike it, not the ones who support it. The ones who support it move on quickly without much to say. The ones who are angry will continue to post and post, as they are emotionally involved.
Rather, the poll is far more telling: The majority of players (on the site) agree with the bannings, and altough a strong consensus isn't present, a majority consensus is. Infact, those who disagree with the banning are the clear minority on the site.
My thought is that you made a ridiculous and hyperbolic statement which undermines your credibility and the points you made.
You're on an internet forum. Nobody starts with any more credibility than anyone else. You don't agree with what I said but have literally no way to dispute it because it's correct, so instead you nitpick my post for reasons irrelevant to the discussion at hand. So let's just say I forgot the word almost at the beginning of that statement. Regardless it's not even close to the real point I was making, which is that an incredible majority of people upset by the ban are pod players, and the majority of people who play the format extensively, including professionals, all saw this coming.
But please, keep telling yourself that because people speak in hyperbole as a way to emphasize points, that they are not correct.
My thought is that you made a ridiculous and hyperbolic statement which undermines your credibility and the points you made.
You're on an internet forum. Nobody starts with any more credibility than anyone else. You don't agree with what I said but have literally no way to dispute it because it's correct, so instead you nitpick my post for reasons irrelevant to the discussion at hand. So let's just say I forgot the word almost at the beginning of that statement. Regardless it's not even close to the real point I was making, which is that an incredible majority of people upset by the ban are pod players, and the majority of people who play the format extensively, including professionals, all saw this coming.
But please, keep telling yourself that because people speak in hyperbole as a way to emphasize points, that they are not correct.
You made a ridiculous hyperbole, but it is made worse by the fact that your thesis is also incorrect. Until this last month, Pod wasn't at dangerous meta levels, wins shouldn't count for anything (day 2 meta is much better metric as the sample size is bigger and is less driven by variance), and people have called for Birthing Pod bans for the last three years without results, so it would be foolish to look at "Pros" opinions on the matters (other cards that were supposed to be banned [according to pros] include Gitaxian Probe, Scapeshift, and Manamorphose). Your claim of "an incredible majority of people upset by the ban are pod players" is baseless. But please, go on spreading baseless lies and ridiculous hyperboles, we aren't trying to have a discussion here or anything.
Birthing pod is my favourite card and its gone...birthing pod was the most interesting deck and WotC killed it.
what do I do now?.. I don't have a deck any more... I can't afford a new one. All the pros all smug with thier unlimited resources, "Its best for the format" it wont be if we all leave the format because we don't have a deck any more. I can't get another deck, my resources went into this one. I have no gofys no lilana's no Snapcasters, no Cryptics or bitterblossoms no Remands no serum visions no damnation no ensaring bridge no nothing to build a deck from any more.
Herp derp play some kind of junk midrange, my deck was melira pod.... it had 3 combo's in it and it tried to achieve them as fast as possible, it was not "value" pod it was combo pod, I have at best one of every good card, I need to spend three times as much money to rebuild a deck in a similar way.... but I don't want to build a similar deck, I don't even like midrange that was why I was trying to escape standard, I hate being at the mercy of the top of my deck I needed X but only drew Y... Birthing pod allowed me to turn X into Y so I didn't sit there with the wrong thing at the wrong time all the time. Screw you variance.
Birthing pod got better the more cards there were in the format, I get it... but that should mean there are better cards for all decks and the powerlevel of the format should rise. Birthing Pod was the heart of modern, a three card combo from creatures with under 3 toughness that didn't get going until after 4 that is what it should be and what modern should be but nope... WotC decided to kill it instead.
*rage quit*
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
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If Birthing Pod were relegated to Melira Pod, we possibly wouldn't be having a conversation at all about the banning. Equally, I think say that the Melira Pod combo being creatures with 3 toughness (or less) is a tad bit disingenuous. The reason that is usually relevant is it is susceptible to Lightning Bolt. The problem is that both Redcap and Finks are not at all susceptible to Bolt in the usual sense. The only part of the combo which is susceptible to Bolt is Melira herself and the sac outlets (One of which completely negates Lightning bolt, for "free", at instant speed), which the deck can rather easily work around. This is not saying much about how potent it was in the format, only that it's rather disingenous to try and argue the deck is a 3-card combo deck based around creatures. You are failing to mention that it is a 3-card combo deck with an incredibly efficient tutor, at least one piece you get is resilient, and can continue to combo off at instant speed once the pieces are in place. On the one hand, you give a much more "fair" sounding description by omitting the details of how it works. When you actually break it down, you start to understand the problematic nature of Pod.
That all said, Melira Pod is moreso a victim of other decks using Pod. To be blunt, there is no singular ban they could have done other than Pod to really affect those decks and the rather degenerate boardstates Pod can create. The problem was laid out rather clearly by them: Simple put, Pod can't get worse. It will only get better as they print more creatures. Even if they banned every single other piece in Pod decks from the format, eventually Pod will rise again with ever increasing new tools. Equally, without rather specific hate cards printed it is difficult to deal with. And if they printed said cards, Modern would start to devolve into Pod vs. Pod hate. At least in their belief.
Equally, Melira Pod may still live on in Melira Chord. Granted, the deck usually ran some number to begin with, but 4x Chord is likely the new base. It won't be as consistent as Pod, but the deck isn't likely to be completely and utterly destroyed. That said, I can see it becoming less viable. Time will tell on it.
To be short: The Melira Combo wasn't the problem. Pod was. It's an incredibly efficient tutor that lets you cheat the tutored creatures into play. The combo pieces exist still, and an instant speed tutor effect is present. It doesn't have the resilient and repeatable tutor in the way of Pod anymore.
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
It honestly would. I find it rather intriguing that people want the power level similar to legacy, and turn 2-3 combos to be present, but then bemoan a card like Pod (Which has started to choke the format) being banned as evidence of this. The problem is that it's paradoxical; a faster format means that Pod would not be viable. The only reason Pod existed in modern to begin with is because the format is kept "unnaturally" slow.
That said, I think the format could use a card like Daze or Force of Will. Unfortunately with [c]Delver[/b] being a thing, that will never happen. Giving a tempo deck a free counterspell would secure it's dominance, just as giving it an effective Ancestral Recall nearly did. I doubt Delver will ever be banned, however it is annoyingly restricting the design space of future sets. Or maybe it will. The current quick-banning of Treasure Cruise could give them pause on it's existence in Modern; if even a single, seemingly innocuous, card was enough to rocket it up to Tier 1 contender, there is something wrong. It is being artificially held at bay, really, and is another card that only gets better the more cards that are printed (As there will never be a better card than it printed). It's an unsustainable sort of situation in the long-run.
For the Ban, I'm hoping they didn't just give out Yisan as the replacement. A replacement that had a meaningful cost would likely be all that you need. The problem is that Phyrexian Mana means you can cheat both on the casting cost *and* color requirement; a straight 2 activation cost would possibly be more than enough. Had Pod been printed as a "normal" card it would still be good enough in general while not near dominating and almost overly oppressive.
As for the Stoneforge and Pod comparison, it's that both are very efficient at what they do; likely too much so. Stoneforge is the extreme example, but can actually sort of be kept in check simpler in a hypothetical world (It is, of course, impossible to do over the long run; you can only go so long before you print a very potent equipment after all). Pod is far more innocuous, and a bit less extreme, but also stands to more quickly gain new tools at that. The issue with Stoneforge is that it already had its tools in Modern to begin with, and thus was broken from the onset. Pod has slowly been gaining its tools, and each year it becomes more readily apparent that something just doesn't sit right with the card itself.
But that's neither here nor there; rather that the comparison between the two to a certain degree foreshadowed Pod's banning. Tutors are always treated with caution, as they enable combo a bit too well. Cheating cards into play is treated with even more caution, as it allows one to avoid some of the more meaningful costs built into the game. Having one or the other being extremely efficient is cause for some concern. Much like Stoneforge however, Pod had both tutoring and cheating cards into play, and at an extremely efficient cost.
I would say that Tutoring and cheating a card into play isn't necessarily too strong in and of itself. But, once again, the issue with Pod is similar to the issue with Stoneforge: Not only do they tutor up the card you need, they also cheat the card into play, and at a very low and efficient cost at that. I feel the effects of both could be properly costed. Just that neither is. Stoneforge is obviously a bit worse a problem than pod, but that doesn't make Pod "safe"(Which you address).
Once again, I am going to blame Phyrexian Mana. The mechanic, while cool, was largely a mistake. A huge number of cards have proven to be widely problematic, or at least exceedingly powerful, because of it. Reducing both the cost and the color requirement is just a tad bit ridiculous on many cards.
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Hmm.... maybe because you ban everything else into oblivion, and the Rock is just a pile of good cards, so it's the one deck that doesn't really care about any particular ban?
Technically, I had Pod built, (I have birthing pods from standard and kept them for commander decks... everything else is basically expensive one-ofs that I also have for commander decks) but I never bothered to spent the enormous amount of time needed to really learn and master the deck because I could see this coming from a mile away. (I chose to spent my time on Junk instead, which has now payed dividends).
With every banning, it becomes more clear that WoTC has no idea how to properly manage an eternal format, and legacy's success has been more a result of their ignoring it then anything else.
Commmander - Eight-and-a-Half Tails; Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; Prime Speaker Zegana; Alesha, Who Smiles at Death; Daxos the Returned; Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest; Patron of the Moonfolk; Animar, Soul of Elements
I agree. I'm glad I sold a big portion of my foiled out Pod deck a month ago because I wasn't playing near as much as I should and I still feel bad for the Pod players out there.
You could say Wizards should have a watch list on cards, but after what they have done with Pod that would probably only cause more insecurity in players to get into the format. They should have banned this a long time ago before it gained the popularity they had. They don't know how to manage an eternal format.
comparing those creatures to DRS makes no sense. you know why DRS got banned? because it was a swiss army knife that did too much for one card. none of those other creatures you listed do more than one thing, which is why they won't get banned. goyf and delver are very efficient beaters. confidant is a card drawing engine. pyromancer is a good tempo card.
that said, i think unbanning DRS and not banning dig would have been pretty cool because DRS would slow down the delving significantly and blunt the lifeloss from delver decks all at the same time.
as for the other cards you listed, they are good but they do not allow for the same kind of comebacks that pod provided. each of those spells is 'all or nothing' in that if you get one to resolve you are probably going to win. however, with pod it didn't matter if you had an empty board with a pod out because it was very possible to just topdeck any creature and claw your way back into the game using the value generated from it and take over from there. also, none of those spells came down on turn 2 as pod often did.
i will say that i didn't think a ban was entirely necessary but the ever increasing potential of a card like pod with new, powerful creatures getting printed was hard to ignore.
Magic, like plenty of other entertainment form, is not for the poor.
No Tarmogoyf should be moved to uncommon. he is not broken in limited.
Siege Rhino is not overpowered. It matched up very well with Delver, particularly Young Pyromancer tokens, and had an ETB trigger that fit naturally into Pod's curve. Without the omnipresence of Delver, Pod could have in all likelihood stuck to its combo base and ignored Rhino, but we'll never really know.
If anything, they should've banned Treasure Cruise only and waiting another 3 months to see what the format looked like then. I suspect that Pod would've dropped off to some extent because decks that were suppressed by Delver would've been allowed to come back out and play, many of which preyed on Pod and kept it at acceptable levels for the years it was legal. Instead, they banned both, so that's what we're left with.
Standard: I, for one, welcome our new rhinoceros overlords
Modern: Pod's dead, Bob's back.
Legacy: Lands, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, Elves, MUD
Retired Legacy: Merfolk, Goblins, Jund, Delver, Reanimator
My thoughts are that you ignored every other point I made, because it helps you feel 'correct'. Even though you are not.
I'm sorry, but whether you believe it or not, you're absolutely dead wrong. And if you were 'watching' the format at the time of the bannings and not playing at the time, you can't really understand just how oppressive he was to deckbuilding. Graveyard interaction was almost pointless, as he could wipe out anything meaningful before it could be made use of, or in response to trying to make use of it. That's everything from their own early ramp, to reanimation targets, to Snapcaster flashbacks, to Scavenging Ooze counters. No one card should be able to do that much for 1 mana and be splashable in 2 heavily played colors that also happen to pair amazingly well, historically. You were literally building your decks back then knowing he's the boogeyman that stifled some of your deck design space.
Even if he was a 1/2 for 1 Relic of Progenitus that could target a specific card, it's stifling. The other abilities tacked on were just over the top.
That said, I don't understand the logic behind these bannings. Delver has a right to exist as a deck type. Yes, T Cruise does make it and other decks maybe a little 'too good', but the reasoning behind DTT is paper-thin. Decks that run Cruise will just replace it with Dig? Because it's the same card? Because it does the same thing? Because it's costs the same? Because it draws the same number of cards? Give me a break.
And as far as Pod, I just have been watching this and other threads, and it does seem there's a consensus of this may have either been premature, or shouldn't have been done at all. I'd be in that camp, as well. I don't see how 5/12 GP wins equates to a deck stifling the format. The same tools and toys in most sideboards for affinity apply to Pod as well. Pod was almost auto-lose versus Tron decks, it was extremely skill-intensive and was by and large a 'fair' deck. Removing an entire archetype from the format is, quite honestly, appalling at best, irresponsible at worst. Modern prices have become a bar to entry into a format that keeps getting higher as time goes on, and now you're taking an existing archetype made up of 3 distinctly different decks, out of people's hands with no warning whatsoever. The prices on some of their cards tank, and their ability to trade the deck away into a down payment on a new one is crippled.
Pod banning more than anything else has just disgusted me with WotC's handling of my favorite format.
bolt is the quintessential red card. red would not be nearly as viable without it. again, this is a staple, that's all it is. it does not do anything strong enough to be banned.
As a more casual player that will show up to a Modern Tournament every now and then, I can agree with the thought that it has caused a huge set back to those who can't or don't wish to spend a lot of money on a deck that is at least minimally competitive. Those who went "all-in" for a Pod deck are completely shut out until they can muster the funds for something else... which is indeed less likely since the value of their current collection just took a dive.
But, I can also see that this would have eventually happened anyway. Pod was a single card - not just a deck archetype - that is uniquely able to grow in efficiency over time with an ever-growing pool from which to pull. Most decks have to make sacrifices and leave out older options completely in order to move in the new gems. Pod does not suffer from that problem in the same way (if at all). Pod is a bunch of 1-to-2-of inclusions anyway that uses its sideboard to much greater effect due to the tutoring nature of Birthing Pod itself. So, when the newest, best option comes out, you have multiple options: 1.) you can take the older option out completely and just stick the new one in, 2.) you can put the new one and just slide that old 1-of into the sideboard in place of a lesser, situational option, or 3.) slide the new one into the sideboard for redundancy in whatever need it fills.
So, when people on here comment about its ever-growing power. They are correct. This is not the same as any other archetype. You cannot generalize it with others. Pod is unique and capable of much more utility than ANY other deck archetype, and with a high rate of efficiency. A rate of 5/12 IS format defining. That means that if 24 people show up, 10 have it and 14 do not. That means 50% of your Meta is trying to beat just one deck archetype. Anything over 1/3 of your format consisting of 1 deck is danger zone territory. It's reach to over 40% of the GP victories is not healthy for the format. Especially when Pod is doing this while UR Delver is "dominating."
The truth is that there are 2 problems (The other being Treasure Cruise) and WotC has to deal with both at the same time for different reasons. They are in a no-win scenario... damned if you do... damned if you don't. Had WotC waited to ban Pod when things finally reached a tipping point (as if 5/12 GP's isn't a tipping point), most of the people on here would be cursing them for "not having seen this sooner." Let's wait a while to see how the format adjusts before we start judging them.
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My final thoughts on the banlist are: it made sense to ban Birthing Pod if you were banning Treasure Cruise, but not unban anything else (or at least anything that will see play...). I'm not saying they had to or should have done it, just that it makes sense. On the other hand, this banlist was really a crossroads where Wizards got to choose between trying to power up the format and get it one step closer to self-regulation, but instead they keep it in an artificial state of balance which is much more unstable. In the long run, this is likely come back to bite them, but it makes sense as a short term decision. Hopefully with the two-block paradigm and Modern Masters (possibly to introduce new cards) we can get more diverse and powerful cards in Modern, and they can slowly reverse the banlist, but if they follow this trajectory, I am afraid that it will hurt the format, and the banlist will turn into a witch hunt where we go after whatever is winning.
That was only part of the reason, however the consistency it provided combo decks already was likely the straw that broke the back. It's not that Dig is a direct replacement for cruise, only that it is a suitable replacement more than likely as well as being a very potent combo enabler already. It would be a tad incongruous to leave Dig, which could replace Cruise to some extent, while banning Cruise as Dig is already seeing play in certain decks anyway. The effect is just to much for where they want Modern to be.
That is not at all true. The Pod players have come out in droves decrying it, and the vast majority of non-pod players have either been supportive of the decision, ambivalent towards it, or silent on the issue.
Just going by this site's poll:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/585137-modern-banlist-changes-poll-jan-19-2015
Over 50% agree with the changes, with a significant portion (16.5%) strongly agreeing with it. Compared to 36.4% disagreeing with the changes. And the remainder (9%) being ambivalent. This is from the actual Modern subforum. Granted, the poll is not all encompassing, and hardly the be-all end-all, but in the subforum dedicated to the format, it seems that a majority of players are perfectly fine with the bannings. It is a false assumption to say that most people disagree with based on the seeming number of posts by angry player; this does not give you an accurate picture at all of the actual support for or against the banning, as the people who are more likely to post about are those who dislike it, not the ones who support it. The ones who support it move on quickly without much to say. The ones who are angry will continue to post and post, as they are emotionally involved.
Rather, the poll is far more telling: The majority of players (on the site) agree with the bannings, and altough a strong consensus isn't present, a majority consensus is. Infact, those who disagree with the banning are the clear minority on the site.
You're on an internet forum. Nobody starts with any more credibility than anyone else. You don't agree with what I said but have literally no way to dispute it because it's correct, so instead you nitpick my post for reasons irrelevant to the discussion at hand. So let's just say I forgot the word almost at the beginning of that statement. Regardless it's not even close to the real point I was making, which is that an incredible majority of people upset by the ban are pod players, and the majority of people who play the format extensively, including professionals, all saw this coming.
But please, keep telling yourself that because people speak in hyperbole as a way to emphasize points, that they are not correct.