Teferi looks cool, perhaps even strong enough for Legacy play. I like the idea of planeswalkers as commanders and I feel it's long overdue. That said it's weird that there will just be a random number of walkers with the new rule text rather than just a general rule change.
I'm not familiar with those characters but I do remember Jessa from flavor text I think. What is pre-mending mean?
The Mending was the change to the nature of the planeswalker spark that happened during Time Spiral block. Also during Time Spiral block, a number of planeswalkers were brought back to die spectacularly. So pre-Mending planeswalkers are very powerful beings (although see my post on the previous page, and Moppi's post above, for why this does not translate to powerful cards) and the best known ones happen to be dead and therefore can't appear in regular sets (notable exceptions include Nicol Bolas, who's attempting to maintain his power level, and Karn).
web-brand said: Will all the planeswalkers in the Commander 2014 products be pre-Mending characters?
Just to clarify because people have been getting this incorrect from what was said at the panel. The cycle of legendary creatures from Commander 2014 is a collection of past characters that people have been asking for in card form. The cycle of planeswalkers are not necessarily all famous characters from the past (although as Teferi demonstrates some might be).
I underlined the part that is relevant to this discussion. So, maybe only one or two more famous planeswalkers and the rest new?
And what TheArtificer just posted is why I am now worried about this set. WotC has lost my confidence.
Why is the reaction to all news here inevitably 'This isn't precisely what I imagined it was going to be? Then clearly it's going to be intolerable and I can somehow tell that without any knowledge of what it actually is going to be!'
Anybody else notice that in the announcement for Commander 2014, the MSRP of the decks went up from 29.99 to 34.99? That kind of irks me, seeing as how I plan on getting all five of the new decks when they come out.
And what TheArtificer just posted is why I am now worried about this set. WotC has lost my confidence.
Why is the reaction to all news here inevitably 'This isn't precisely what I imagined it was going to be? Then clearly it's going to be intolerable and I can somehow tell that without any knowledge of what it actually is going to be!'
I have the same observation and also find it troubling. I typically feel exactly the opposite.
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Standard: UWG Bant Control
EDH: UArcum Dagsson
Modern: Affinity
Vintage: BUR Grixis Control
Legacy: W Mono-White : U Merfolk : BUG Esper Stoneblade : RBG Punishing Jund : B Reanimator : RU Sneak and Show : GB Infect : RG Red/Green Devotion : RUG RUG Delver
I'm actually relieved by this news. Some colors clearly have a spot for an older famous planeswalker, but others would be a stretch. Red for example. I love the character of Jaya Ballard, but her card is essentially a planeswalker and her traits have been LARGELY subsumed by Chandra Nalaar. Who else would be good in the red slot? White has an obvious card in Serra, however I don't know if that means that she'll be printed. It seems that Serra was on a different power level than Teferi. And green could easily be Freyalise, but again power level could be an issue here.
Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing new planeswalkers.
Lame. I was hoping it would be a cycle of old favorites. I guess this means we'll probably get some originals thrown in? Or maybe a new version of a current planeswalker? I suppose a reprint of an existing 'walker is out of the question, since adding the commander clause would be considered functional errata.
And what TheArtificer just posted is why I am now worried about this set. WotC has lost my confidence.
Why is the reaction to all news here inevitably 'This isn't precisely what I imagined it was going to be? Then clearly it's going to be intolerable and I can somehow tell that without any knowledge of what it actually is going to be!'
I should have been clearer. This was among other reasons I have lost confidence, stretching out for the past 18 months. This false hope and the double screwing up of their website are the most recent and thus what most lay heavily on my mind.
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Intensity, Integrity, Intelligence, Personified and Penguinified.
And what TheArtificer just posted is why I am now worried about this set. WotC has lost my confidence.
Why is the reaction to all news here inevitably 'This isn't precisely what I imagined it was going to be? Then clearly it's going to be intolerable and I can somehow tell that without any knowledge of what it actually is going to be!'
I should have been clearer. This was among other reasons I have lost confidence, stretching out for the past 18 months. This false hope and the double screwing up of their website are the most recent and thus what most lay heavily on my mind.
I don't really see it as their fault that people misreported what was said at SDCC. The showed Teferi and said that the primary commanders were planeswalkers. We assumed they would all be pre-Mending. You can't blame WotC for that, so I don't see any claim for "false hope" (of an ultimately irrelevant thing?) even as an additional factor to add to other grievances. Lay this one solely at the feet of the community, blaming WotC for things they didn't do is not a good way to get their actual problems solved.
And what TheArtificer just posted is why I am now worried about this set. WotC has lost my confidence.
Why is the reaction to all news here inevitably 'This isn't precisely what I imagined it was going to be? Then clearly it's going to be intolerable and I can somehow tell that without any knowledge of what it actually is going to be!'
I should have been clearer. This was among other reasons I have lost confidence, stretching out for the past 18 months. This false hope and the double screwing up of their website are the most recent and thus what most lay heavily on my mind.
I don't really see it as their fault that people misreported what was said at SDCC. The showed Teferi and said that the primary commanders were planeswalkers. We assumed they would all be pre-Mending. You can't blame WotC for that, so I don't see any claim for "false hope" (of an ultimately irrelevant thing?) even as an additional factor to add to other grievances. Lay this one solely at the feet of the community, blaming WotC for things they didn't do is not a good way to get their actual problems solved.
But one can be disappointed that wizards missed an excellent opportunity to print previously unseen premending planeswalkers, if that ends up being the case.
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Quote from Wolfman about lack of Conspiracy spoilers-
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
since Mono-Red and Mono-Black TEND to get the shaft in terms of quality and quantity of planeswalkers (certain obvious cards notwithstanding) it'll be nice to see them get another opportunity to make a really good one for those colors, since Green, Blue, and White are frequently getting very good planeswalkers.
And what TheArtificer just posted is why I am now worried about this set. WotC has lost my confidence.
Why is the reaction to all news here inevitably 'This isn't precisely what I imagined it was going to be? Then clearly it's going to be intolerable and I can somehow tell that without any knowledge of what it actually is going to be!'
I should have been clearer. This was among other reasons I have lost confidence, stretching out for the past 18 months. This false hope and the double screwing up of their website are the most recent and thus what most lay heavily on my mind.
I don't really see it as their fault that people misreported what was said at SDCC. The showed Teferi and said that the primary commanders were planeswalkers. We assumed they would all be pre-Mending. You can't blame WotC for that, so I don't see any claim for "false hope" (of an ultimately irrelevant thing?) even as an additional factor to add to other grievances. Lay this one solely at the feet of the community, blaming WotC for things they didn't do is not a good way to get their actual problems solved.
But one can be disappointed that wizards missed an excellent opportunity to print previously unseen premending planeswalkers, if that ends up being the case.
One should wait at least until one has seen which planeswalkers they do print, both pre-existing and new, in that case. That was how I interpreted the complaint initially and I don't think it's at all fair. Now that they have this technology I'd be very surprised if they don't use it again in the future, and if the pre-Mending walkers prove popular I'm sure they'll make more of them. But even if one is not patient enough to wait until then, one should at least wait until we know who made it in and who didn't and most importantly why.
Why is the reaction to all news here inevitably 'This isn't precisely what I imagined it was going to be? Then clearly it's going to be intolerable and I can somehow tell that without any knowledge of what it actually is going to be!'
I should have been clearer. This was among other reasons I have lost confidence, stretching out for the past 18 months. This false hope and the double screwing up of their website are the most recent and thus what most lay heavily on my mind.
I don't really see it as their fault that people misreported what was said at SDCC. The showed Teferi and said that the primary commanders were planeswalkers. We assumed they would all be pre-Mending. You can't blame WotC for that, so I don't see any claim for "false hope" (of an ultimately irrelevant thing?) even as an additional factor to add to other grievances. Lay this one solely at the feet of the community, blaming WotC for things they didn't do is not a good way to get their actual problems solved.
But one can be disappointed that wizards missed an excellent opportunity to print previously unseen premending planeswalkers, if that ends up being the case.
One should wait at least until one has seen which planeswalkers they do print, both pre-existing and new, in that case. That was how I interpreted the complaint initially and I don't think it's at all fair. Now that they have this technology I'd be very surprised if they don't use it again in the future, and if the pre-Mending walkers prove popular I'm sure they'll make more of them. But even if one is not patient enough to wait until then, one should at least wait until we know who made it in and who didn't and most importantly why.
Thats why I said if that ends up being the case, we could literately get any monocolored planeswalker; new, reprint, or premending.
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Quote from Wolfman about lack of Conspiracy spoilers-
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
Why can Teferi be a Commander when Elspeth, Bolas and Jace cannot?
Because he has that text saying that he can be a commander. There is no Vorthos explanation. I'm actually slightly disappointed for the implications this has for Planeswalker-Commander as a format. The beauty of EDH is that you can take any Legend and build a deck, they don't need to be specifically designed for the task (like the similar-for-Vorthos Vanguard did). I dreamt of a day when a similar format would be available to do the same for Planeswalkers, but this is likely to draw away interest from that. It's a very minor quibble, though.
Then why is Teferi not way more powerful? Pre mending walkers should be so powerful that they should never be printed.
So, back in the day it was asked by many why planeswalkers weren't on cards, with the assumption that they would be creature cards because there was no Planeswalker type yet. As creatures, they would be much too large to print at sensible costs, and arguably they'd be overpowered even at unmanageably high costs because of reanimation and similar tricks to cheat creatures into play. So people kept saying that planeswalkers were too powerful to print, over and over again, until they forgot what the reason was. Meanwhile, the plot of Time Spiral was engineered to rob planeswalkers of their excessive power to remove this impediment and also to make them more relatable and make it easier to tell stories specifically about them. In Future Sight, they got around to actually designing a Planeswalker card, but they didn't finish in time and replaced it with Tarmogoyf. As it happens, though, the way they elected to represent the planeswalker on the card was with "loyalty". This card represents calling for aid from a fellow planeswalker (it's interesting that all this talk of the depowering of walkers overlooks the fact that players, who are explicitly planeswalkers, did not receive any gameplay handicaps in the process) who will cast from their own repertoire of spells as governed by how loyal they feel towards you at the time. By complete accident, this sidesteps entirely the power issue. There's no need for a 20/20 Urza crashing about the place, you could just have Urza Tinkering away at his artifacts and imagine the vast and unstoppable power he possesses but doesn't apply because he's his own man and not your mind slave. They still kept the depowered planeswalkers for the narrative reasons I mentioned, but the idea that this was necessary to represent them on the cards that now exist is false. Just look at Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, whose entire raison d'etre is maintaining his pre-Mending power level.
Jesus man you're answering everything I didn't ask
I know Teferi can be played as a Commander because it says so on the card. I wanted the flavor reason why. Thus my questions.
I also know about the Time Spiral block, the planeswalkers and Tarmogoyf. I have played ever since Tempest. Thanks for the explanation, but I wanted to know the flavor justification for why Teferi could be printed as a walker that could be used as a Commander and also why others couldn't.
There isn't a flavour reason, and saying "because the card says so" is my whimsical way of saying that. "There is no Vorthos explanation" is my more straightforward way of saying that (Vorthos is the psychographic that cares about flavour).
If you already knew everything I said about Time Spiral and the creation of the Planeswalker type, why did you say that pre-Mending walkers were too powerful to be printed? The tl;dr of that section is, no, they're not. The Planeswalker type is designed such that pre- or post-Mending power levels don't matter, what matters is what the planeswalker is willing to do for you, and additionally don't forget that You Are A Planeswalker as the tagline goes.
Black has one of the best planeswalker yet printed after Jace, the Mind Sculptor -> Liliana of the Veil
Fixed that for ya
You can fix a lot of things but LotV is at worst as good as Jace.
If that were true, she would've been banned in Modern and Standard. Jace was banned because he was unequivocally warping both of those formats (or, at least, he would have been warping Modern if he had the chance). Every competitive deck was splashing blue just to add him in. He was that broken.
The amount of play a card sees in Legacy isn't necessarily determinative of its power level. Jace is a 4 CMC walker, and anything with that high of a mana cost has a very difficult time seeing play in the eternal formats (yes, he only costs one more than LotV, but the difference in playability between 3CMC and 4CMC in those formats is enormous).
You can like Liliana as a character more than Jace. You can dislike the amount of hype that Jace gets, but Mind Sculptor really is as good as the hype says it is. It is widely (and accurately) regarded as a broken card. LotV may be powerful, but it isn't commonly thought of as being broken -- because it isn't.
I figured this whole "use a 'walker as your Commander" bit was coming eventually, but I didn't expect Wizards to toss in pre-Mending Planeswalkers as new cards. I'm crossing my fingers for a sweet Jaya Ballard. I mean, she HAS to be the red one, right?
The widely "accepted" opinion is not always right and the reason Jace was banned has as much to do with other cards in the format to go along with him.
Fact is Liliana is just as much if not more relevant than Jace in legacy.
Liliana goes into Shardless Bug, Jund and Pox
Jace goes into Shardless Bug and Miracles
Also Jace was banned as a precaution. He was never legal in modern. Actually if they unbanned him right now he would have obviously some impact on the format but it is not likely that he would warp the format at all.
I think Jace 2.0 does not get that much support in legacy at the moment. I have played legacy for quite a while. Only UW (miracle, counterbalance, cow blade whatever they are similar) and threshold seems to stay at the format forever. The rest just come and go. And Jace 2.0 does support one of them. I can see Jace will be played more than Liliana in the long run.
Anyway it is hard to evaluate a card power level based on a specific format at a specific time. If I have both of them in my pack for cube draft. I think most people will pick Jace on top of Liliana.
I always believe that most legacy samples are only good at legacy. If we reprint any one of them in any standard format (without other cards support). Only three cards will always be good : FOW, Jace and jitte.
It says "you can use the activated abilities of planeswalkers you control on any turn at any time you could use an instant." and the planeswalker rule states "Each planeswalker has a number of activated abilities on it. You can play one of these abilities only at the time you could play a sorcery, and only if none of that planeswalker's abilities have been played yet that turn." Does that mean you can activate it once on your turn then on the next players turn and the next... and so on and so forth?
The Mending was the change to the nature of the planeswalker spark that happened during Time Spiral block. Also during Time Spiral block, a number of planeswalkers were brought back to die spectacularly. So pre-Mending planeswalkers are very powerful beings (although see my post on the previous page, and Moppi's post above, for why this does not translate to powerful cards) and the best known ones happen to be dead and therefore can't appear in regular sets (notable exceptions include Nicol Bolas, who's attempting to maintain his power level, and Karn).
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage and Jeska, Warrior Adept both appeared as Legends representing their pre-ascended forms.
I underlined the part that is relevant to this discussion. So, maybe only one or two more famous planeswalkers and the rest new?
UMuzzio, Visionary ArchitectU
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Why is the reaction to all news here inevitably 'This isn't precisely what I imagined it was going to be? Then clearly it's going to be intolerable and I can somehow tell that without any knowledge of what it actually is going to be!'
I have the same observation and also find it troubling. I typically feel exactly the opposite.
Standard: UWG Bant Control
EDH: UArcum Dagsson
Modern: Affinity
Vintage: BUR Grixis Control
Legacy: W Mono-White : U Merfolk : BUG Esper Stoneblade : RBG Punishing Jund : B Reanimator : RU Sneak and Show : GB Infect : RG Red/Green Devotion : RUG RUG Delver
Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing new planeswalkers.
EDH: Dragonlord Ojutai, Convoltron
I should have been clearer. This was among other reasons I have lost confidence, stretching out for the past 18 months. This false hope and the double screwing up of their website are the most recent and thus what most lay heavily on my mind.
Owner of IcyGeek.com
I don't really see it as their fault that people misreported what was said at SDCC. The showed Teferi and said that the primary commanders were planeswalkers. We assumed they would all be pre-Mending. You can't blame WotC for that, so I don't see any claim for "false hope" (of an ultimately irrelevant thing?) even as an additional factor to add to other grievances. Lay this one solely at the feet of the community, blaming WotC for things they didn't do is not a good way to get their actual problems solved.
But one can be disappointed that wizards missed an excellent opportunity to print previously unseen premending planeswalkers, if that ends up being the case.
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
EDH:
Niv-Mizzet
Legacy:
The Rack
Modern
Venser, the Sojourner Control
One should wait at least until one has seen which planeswalkers they do print, both pre-existing and new, in that case. That was how I interpreted the complaint initially and I don't think it's at all fair. Now that they have this technology I'd be very surprised if they don't use it again in the future, and if the pre-Mending walkers prove popular I'm sure they'll make more of them. But even if one is not patient enough to wait until then, one should at least wait until we know who made it in and who didn't and most importantly why.
Thats why I said if that ends up being the case, we could literately get any monocolored planeswalker; new, reprint, or premending.
"I'd say this about guarantees that it won't be up till this Friday, but considering the current track record, the ETA is now probably two weeks after the set has been out."
Quote from Sirius_B
Speak for yourself, if drawing *****-headed wurms makes social justice warriors cry I'll make it my favorite hobby.
Right not a second commander but a second PW if there is who do we suspect Tamiyo another Jace?
As for it not being pre mending I would look through blogatog and see who's been requested that MaRo has mentioned about dead PWs
There isn't a flavour reason, and saying "because the card says so" is my whimsical way of saying that. "There is no Vorthos explanation" is my more straightforward way of saying that (Vorthos is the psychographic that cares about flavour).
If you already knew everything I said about Time Spiral and the creation of the Planeswalker type, why did you say that pre-Mending walkers were too powerful to be printed? The tl;dr of that section is, no, they're not. The Planeswalker type is designed such that pre- or post-Mending power levels don't matter, what matters is what the planeswalker is willing to do for you, and additionally don't forget that You Are A Planeswalker as the tagline goes.
*cough*Jace*cough*
Fixed that for ya
If that were true, she would've been banned in Modern and Standard. Jace was banned because he was unequivocally warping both of those formats (or, at least, he would have been warping Modern if he had the chance). Every competitive deck was splashing blue just to add him in. He was that broken.
The amount of play a card sees in Legacy isn't necessarily determinative of its power level. Jace is a 4 CMC walker, and anything with that high of a mana cost has a very difficult time seeing play in the eternal formats (yes, he only costs one more than LotV, but the difference in playability between 3CMC and 4CMC in those formats is enormous).
You can like Liliana as a character more than Jace. You can dislike the amount of hype that Jace gets, but Mind Sculptor really is as good as the hype says it is. It is widely (and accurately) regarded as a broken card. LotV may be powerful, but it isn't commonly thought of as being broken -- because it isn't.
I figured this whole "use a 'walker as your Commander" bit was coming eventually, but I didn't expect Wizards to toss in pre-Mending Planeswalkers as new cards. I'm crossing my fingers for a sweet Jaya Ballard. I mean, she HAS to be the red one, right?
....right?
I think Jace 2.0 does not get that much support in legacy at the moment. I have played legacy for quite a while. Only UW (miracle, counterbalance, cow blade whatever they are similar) and threshold seems to stay at the format forever. The rest just come and go. And Jace 2.0 does support one of them. I can see Jace will be played more than Liliana in the long run.
Anyway it is hard to evaluate a card power level based on a specific format at a specific time. If I have both of them in my pack for cube draft. I think most people will pick Jace on top of Liliana.
I always believe that most legacy samples are only good at legacy. If we reprint any one of them in any standard format (without other cards support). Only three cards will always be good : FOW, Jace and jitte.