How did you won "through" color screw? In spite of color screw? Or did I just don't get how the hydra deck works? It's land-free after all.
As in I managed to get past the fact that I was color screwed, not that I won by color screwing the hydra. I was stuck on black with a bunch of green creatures but won with just a couple of black ones and a Doom Blade.
So... for those who intend on attending maybe 1 of these events at most, will we be able to buy these decks/sets to mess around with later? Or will we have to piece it together and buy everything individually?
I walked in to my shop, plunked down twelve simoleons, and left with my deck. I am 100% certain you will be able to do the same for the others as well. I am trying to decide if I am going to proxy or be lazy and buy another for customization.
I bought the Hydra deck and got it in yesterday; I've been testing it against all sorts of decks and I have to say it's pretty powerful. Every test I did was 2 vs 1 two-headed giant mode with a friend who sucks at magic lol.
I'm not yet sure Challenge decks are as good as Horde magic decks though.
What I feel like (in casual), is that the Hydra decks are too strong at the beginning, and if you can pass the first hurdle, they become a bit easy when you can build a field. We lost most of the time because it would kill us in 4-5 turns each time before any deck could build up and do much- you have to have a quick starting deck rather than any casual one.
A lot of the time, the game would start and almost on the first Hydra turn, it would drop a hydra, deal us all 4-5, then on its 2nd turn, get the deal X damage card and hit us for all 8-12 and almost end the game. That's just too harsh when starting up a game.
I'm going to try making my own variations with it like Horde (which is perfect I might add) and see what happens.
i managed to pick up the hydra deck for like $8. my bro and i did a four 2v1 5 hydra head using our EDH decks. only lost twice. one tie, we just got absolutely destroyed by back-to-back "X damage for each hydra head"
i love playing against it. we bought 2 hydra decks so we are going to to try a 2HG EDH. havent ironed out the details yet, but the primary objective is to kill the other team's hydra first.
Ok... I ripped through 13 pages of posts to ensure that nobody already covered what I wanted to ask.
Damn, you got a bunch of whiners on here, btw. If you can Mind Grind and win in 1 turn, it defeats the entire purpose of a challenge deck, guys. People are always working towards the fastest, easiest way to beat an opponent. What ever happened to strategy integrated into gameplay, instead of "my mom gave me $500 to buy the best cards from the series"? I appreciate a victory that I struggle to achieve rather than being a douche and paying for victory. Nevertheless...
I bought a copy of Face the Hydra on Monday morning last week. It became available for purchase the day previous, and it cost $12. I've played at least 20 solo games against it, as well as a few 2v1 & 3v1. While I really enjoy the deck, there are some rules that definitely need a little more clarification.
One of the rules that I noted needs additional info is the rule that states when a player attacks the Hydra, because the Hydra isn't a player and has no life total, any damage that would be dealt to the player would instead be dealt to a head. Now, let's pretend that I'm currently facing two standard 0/3 Hydra heads. On the Hydra's previous turn it flipped up a sorcery that required it to tap 2 heads and they remain tapped throughout the Hydra's next turn. I currently control 3 creatures, all with lifelink. Because both heads in play are tapped, I cannot assign any blockers (for Hydra) and thus the damage would be dealt directly to Hydra's life points, had it any in the first place. But the rules contradict at this point, stating that it would have to be assigned to a head. But none are available to assign it to, as both are currently tapped. How does one progress through a turn such as this? Do you assign damage to a head regardless, or is it a waste of 2 turns to attack with lifelink creatures that don't dealt combat damage and thus provide you with no benefits. Granted the two heads are tapped so you aren't taking additional damage for two turns, but still...
Another issue I've encountered is somewhat similar; my friend played against Hydra with an Eldrazi deck. He attacked me with his Rapacious One and then insisted that he be allowed to place his two 0/1 Eldrazi Spawn tokens onto the battlefield after attacking a 0/3 Hydra head, because his creature has trample, and any damage to a player creates new tokens. We debated on this for a while until I told him to shut his face because he can't deal damage to Hydra directly. Does that seem like a legit standpoint?
I'm also a little perplexed by the sorcery card "Swallow the Hero Whole," which states that a creature must be exiled by each player. Now, the wording on the card is a little off, and states Each player exiles a creature he or she controls. Until the Hydra's next turn, when a head leaves the battlefield, return the exiled creatures to the battlefield under their owners' control. I'm not sure if this is an AND/OR situation, or if the exiled creature returns to the field only when a head leaves play. The wording on the card seems to imply that they expect you'll kill at least one head each turn. I'm currently treating it as an AND/OR card, and returning the exiled card(s) on the Hydra's next turn, even if a head doesn't leave play that last turn. Or is it implying that you have until the Hydra's next turn to kill a head and get your creature back, or it's lost forever? Anyone?
Additionally, in regards to what I mentioned above about Hydra not being a player and having life points, is accurate. While Hydra is not a player, it still counts as an opponent, because the objective of the challenge deck is to have one or more players face the Hydra deck "with the Hydra as the only opponent." That being said, Hydra cannot be milled. Before anyone decides to start crying about it, keep in mind that there are sorcery cards in the Hydra deck that state "return 2 cards named Hydra Head from the graveyard to the battlefield, if you cannot, reveal cards from the top of the library until you locate one and cast it," and "If there are 5 or more heads in play, tap two. If there aren't, reveal cards from the top of the library until you locate a card named Hydra Head and cast it." These cards are hilarious because they self-mill the deck, with any cards that aren't Hydra Head thrown in the graveyard (yes, including Elite Heads, because the sorcery specifically calls for cards named Hydra Head).
Treating it as an opponent, Hydra heads can be mind controlled, but it does little for you, since you either play alone or with someone on your team, and Hydra doesn't attack directly, so controlling a 0/8 elite head won't help you at all. You'd still take damage for heads under your control because all sorcery cards specifically state "[...]heads on the battlefield," not "heads under Hydra's control" and elite heads with abilities like "1 extra damage per turn," or "At the beginning of Hydra's end step, the top card is revealed and played" is a rule that cannot be negated, from my understanding [EDIT: Assuming you aren't using something like Damping Matrix, which theoretically would work]. Whether under your control or not, these things happen as long as the head is in play. You'd be required to sacrifice or destroy any heads under your control to win still, and there's still the chance that more could turn up to replace them when you do so. Furthermore, because Hydra can be treated as an opponent, if you play a white-based lifegain deck, and include Silence (won't interfere with your teammates, only Hydra) and Kirtar's Wrath, you can win for 7 mana on any given turn that mana is available to you to spend, provided those cards are in hand at the same time.
You can counter any spells or creatures cast by Hydra, but you need to ensure that the cards you use don't specifically state "player" on them. Because Hydra has no lands, counter cards that require the player/opponent to pay a fee to prevent a counter card from activating are considered impossible actions and those cards would be rendered ineffective and go straight to a graveyard without countering anything. The most effective counter I've found so far is Unsummon. For a single mana, you can kill it. Since Hydra has no hand, the card goes to the graveyard. Unsummon is not an impossible action because the rules cover this by stating that when a head leaves the battlefield, it immediately gets put into the graveyard, but Hydra still gets to flip 2 new cards, because the governing rules state that "when a head leaves the battlefield, Hydra reveals the top two cards of its library and casts any heads." In other words, the Hydra card doesn't need to die, just leave the battlefield. This works to your advantage as well, since you gain life when it leaves play, too. Another good strategy is anything with deathtouch, as I saw a couple people mention previously in the thread.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
One of the rules that I noted needs additional info is the rule that states when a player attacks the Hydra, because the Hydra isn't a player and has no life total, any damage that would be dealt to the player would instead be dealt to a head. Now, let's pretend that I'm currently facing two standard 0/3 Hydra heads. On the Hydra's previous turn it flipped up a sorcery that required it to tap 2 heads and they remain tapped throughout the Hydra's next turn. I currently control 3 creatures, all with lifelink. Because both heads in play are tapped, I cannot assign any blockers (for Hydra) and thus the damage would be dealt directly to Hydra's life points, had it any in the first place. But the rules contradict at this point, stating that it would have to be assigned to a head. But none are available to assign it to, as both are currently tapped. How does one progress through a turn such as this? Do you assign damage to a head regardless, or is it a waste of 2 turns to attack with lifelink creatures that don't dealt combat damage and thus provide you with no benefits. Granted the two heads are tapped so you aren't taking additional damage for two turns, but still...
The rules I see don't say you cannot redirect damage to a tapped Head. Also I see nothing about "assigning blockers" for the Hydra.
Another issue I've encountered is somewhat similar; my friend played against Hydra with an Eldrazi deck. He attacked me with his Rapacious One and then insisted that he be allowed to place his two 0/1 Eldrazi Spawn tokens onto the battlefield after attacking a 0/3 Hydra head, because his creature has trample, and any damage to a player creates new tokens. We debated on this for a while until I told him to shut his face because he can't deal damage to Hydra directly. Does that seem like a legit standpoint?
I don't think telling him to shut his face is a legit standpoint. That said the rule - as imprecisely as it is formulated - is written like a nonoptional replacement effect so the "Hydra" is never dealt damage.
I'm also a little perplexed by the sorcery card "Swallow the Hero Whole," which states that a creature must be exiled by each player. Now, the wording on the card is a little off, and states Each player exiles a creature he or she controls. Until the Hydra's next turn, when a head leaves the battlefield, return the exiled creatures to the battlefield under their owners' control. I'm not sure if this is an AND/OR situation, or if the exiled creature returns to the field only when a head leaves play. The wording on the card seems to imply that they expect you'll kill at least one head each turn. I'm currently treating it as an AND/OR card, and returning the exiled card(s) on the Hydra's next turn, even if a head doesn't leave play that last turn. Or is it implying that you have until the Hydra's next turn to kill a head and get your creature back, or it's lost forever? Anyone?
The card text (as opposed to the more casually formulated "rules") is without ambiguity: The creatures are exiled without duration given. The triggered ability that could return them exists only until until the "Hydra"'s next turn.
If you do not manage to kill a Head in time, the creatures remain exiled indefinitely.
Because Hydra has no lands, counter cards that require the player/opponent to pay a fee to prevent a counter card from activating are considered impossible actions and those cards would be rendered ineffective and go straight to a graveyard without countering anything.
Are you talking about Mana Leak? This makes no sense. An impossible alternative action doesn't influence the main effect of a spell. Otherwise the same rules you just described should apply in a PvP match.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
The rules I see don't say you cannot redirect damage to a tapped Head. Also I see nothing about "assigning blockers" for the Hydra.
It also doesn't say that you can assign damage to tapped heads, either, is my point. As for assigning blockers, I meant in the general sense, since you make the decisions for the Hydra. I can't very well tell a tapped creature to block now, can I?
The card text (as opposed to the more casually formulated "rules") is without ambiguity: The creatures are exiled without duration given. The triggered ability that could return them exists only until until the "Hydra"'s next turn.
If you do not manage to kill a Head in time, the creatures remain exiled indefinitely.
Are you talking about Mana Leak? This makes no sense. An impossible alternative action doesn't influence the main effect of a spell. Otherwise the same rules you just described should apply in a PvP match.
Good example - Mana Leak requires it's controller to pay to disable a counter. Hydra has no controller, nor does it control any mana, therefore this is an impossible action.
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And just when you thought I was going to go left, I fake a right and go left anyways.
It also doesn't say that you can assign damage to tapped heads, either, is my point. As for assigning blockers, I meant in the general sense, since you make the decisions for the Hydra. I can't very well tell a tapped creature to block now, can I?
No, but the Hydra doesn't declare blockers; players attack the Heads directly.
Quote from FtH rules »
You can attack Heads directly with your creatures. Any number of creatures can attack a single Head.
Damn, you got a bunch of whiners on here, btw. If you can Mind Grind and win in 1 turn, it defeats the entire purpose of a challenge deck, guys. People are always working towards the fastest, easiest way to beat an opponent. What ever happened to strategy integrated into gameplay, instead of "my mom gave me $500 to buy the best cards from the series"? I appreciate a victory that I struggle to achieve rather than being a douche and paying for victory. Nevertheless...
? Mind Grind is not a money card. Cards that are particularly effective against the Hydra tend to be ineffective for competitive PvP play, and are consequently typically not particularly valuable.
One of the rules that I noted needs additional info is the rule that states when a player attacks the Hydra, because the Hydra isn't a player and has no life total,
This may be your interpretation of the reasoning behind the rule, but it's not accurate. The Hydra doesn't have a life total, but that doesn't mean the rules don't consider it to be a player.
Additionally, in regards to what I mentioned above about Hydra not being a player and having life points, is accurate. While Hydra is not a player, it still counts as an opponent, because the objective of the challenge deck is to have one or more players face the Hydra deck "with the Hydra as the only opponent."
Your interpretation is again inaccurate. Only players can be opponents. This doesn't affect Mind Grind, though, because Mind Grind specifies that "each opponent" mills. The Hydra has a library, it can reveal cards from the top of it, and those cards can be put into its graveyard directly from the library.
That being said, Hydra cannot be milled. Before anyone decides to start crying about it, keep in mind that there are sorcery cards [that] self-mill the deck, with any cards that aren't Hydra Head thrown in the graveyard (yes, including Elite Heads, because the sorcery specifically calls for cards named Hydra Head).
The Hydra can't be milled, but it mills itself? Your reading of the card also appears to be inaccurate. The sorcery card Grown from the Stump (the card to which you're referring) reads, in part, "until you reveal a Head card," which refers to any card with the creature subtype Head, including elite Heads.
Treating it as an opponent, Hydra heads can be mind controlled, but it does little for you, since you either play alone or with someone on your team, and Hydra doesn't attack directly, so controlling a 0/8 elite head won't help you at all. You'd still take damage for heads under your control because all sorcery cards specifically state "[...]heads on the battlefield," not "heads under Hydra's control" and elite heads with abilities like "1 extra damage per turn," or "At the beginning of Hydra's end step, the top card is revealed and played" is a rule that cannot be negated, from my understanding [EDIT: Assuming you aren't using something like Damping Matrix, which theoretically would work].
You're correct that you still take damage from the triggered ability of Snapping Fang Head, and that Hydra Heads you control contribute to damage dealt by Unified Lunge, etc., but your reasoning is incorrect. They are not rules, but triggered abilities. They can be countered by spells or abilities that can counter triggered abilities (such as Voidslime or Stifle), and they can't be stopped by effects that prevent activated abilities from being used (the Damping Matrix you mentioned) because they're not activated.
On the other hand, the rule that cause you to be dealt damage during the Hydra's end step specifies untapped Heads the Hydra controls.
Quote from FtH rules »
The Hydra deals 1 damage to you for each untapped card named Hydra Head it controls and 2 damage to you for each untapped elite Head it controls.
because Hydra can be treated as an opponent, if you play a white-based lifegain deck, and include Silence (won't interfere with your teammates, only Hydra) and Kirtar's Wrath, you can win for 7 mana on any given turn that mana is available to you to spend, provided those cards are in hand at the same time.
If it worked the way you thought it did, sure. Though why you would use Kirtar's Wrath rather than, say, Wrath of God or Supreme Verdict is questionable. In any case, that particular route doesn't work because the Hydra doesn't cast its replacement Heads; it puts them directly on the battlefield.
Quote from FtH rules »
Growing New Heads: Whenever a Head leaves the battlefield, reveal the top two cards of the Hydra's library. Put any Heads onto the battlefield and any sorcery cards into the Hydra's graveyard.
You can counter any spells or creatures cast by Hydra, but you need to ensure that the cards you use don't specifically state "player" on them. Because Hydra has no lands, counter cards that require the player/opponent to pay a fee to prevent a counter card from activating are considered impossible actions and those cards would be rendered ineffective and go straight to a graveyard without countering anything.
This interpretation is inaccurate, and the initial statement of the interpretation isn't even representative of its content. Consider Syncopate: it doesn't say "player" anywhere on it, and yet your claim about impossible actions applies to it. Nevertheless, the impossible action must be performed to stop the countering from occurring, and since the Hydra ignores it, it can't do so. Countering the spell isn't an impossible action, and countering a spell unless an impossible action is performed will happen even if the impossible action is "ignored."
Good example - Mana Leak requires it's controller to pay to disable a counter. Hydra has no controller, nor does it control any mana, therefore this is an impossible action.
Mana Leak requires the controller of the spell it's countering to pay (I suppose you might have been referring to that spell when you referred to "it", but a conventional reading of your sentence gives Mana Leak as the referent). The Hydra doesn't have a controller any more than another player does, but Mana Leak doesn't ask for the spell's controller's controller to pay a cost, but the controller of the spell. The Hydra controls the spells it casts. Nobody ever "controls" mana, but rather has mana in his or her mana pool. Again, it being impossible to perform the action that would prevent the spell from being countered simply means that the spell is countered.
Quote from Comp. rules »
405.4. Each spell has all the characteristics of the card associated with it. Each activated or triggered ability that's on the stack has the text of the ability that created it and no other characteristics. The controller of a spell is the person who cast it. The controller of an activated ability is the player who activated it. The controller of a triggered ability is the player who controlled the ability's source when it triggered, unless it's a delayed triggered ability. To determine the controller of a delayed triggered ability, see rules 603.7d-f.
Incidentally, the Hydra never draws cards, by either rules or effects (this is where impossible actions come in), so it doesn't lose to mill, except in the sense that it can't replace any more of its Heads, which still have to be removed in order to defeat the Hydra.
I switched around rules and clarified some for our casual play:
Better Challenge Deck Mode:
-Challenge decks ARE players if they aren't already (so the one card that deals 5 to each player deals it to itself too, which deals it to a head instead- it makes sense for the flavor of the card). This also allows milling, etc.
-We may steal creatures. Rule deleted. Might make it so a hydra's head dies if it switches zone OR control. Or might make it so the Hydra would only lose if all it's heads are gone from the battlefield regardless of control.
-You start with 2 heads to make the first 1-3 turns easier, but when one dies you look at the top 3 cards (or 4 cards in a harder mode) and play any heads. Harder modes can both increase beginning heads and play more heads when one dies. Starting with 4-6 heads is messed up no matter how many players you want. Dying on turn 3 when everyone finally gets their first creature that could kill a head is stupid.
^This solves 3 issues. This makes the beginning not too overwhelming. It makes Hydras progress better, making later turns not too easy. This makes it so when heads die, they don't just get sorceries as the top 2 cards most of the time like before which was lame.
-Like Horde magic, any costs you offer it to pay or make it pay (such as counter spell unless the Hydra pays 3) are paid. It has infinite mana for these. It would pay extra costs that would not be beneficial for itself.
-Choices on its own cards are made by you. Choices the Hydra makes on your cards are either random (like basic Horde magic) or are the smartest choice the Hydra would make (like smart Horde magic).
Yeah, I wish it came with more. I love it when it has the Savage Vigor Head in play so it gets an additional spell on each of its turns. I was sad when I bought mine and I found out there was only one in the deck, if I could I would take out the Strike the Weak Spots in exchange for more Savage Vigor Heads but I am not going to buy more copies of the deck just so I can do that.
I felt the same way, so I threw a bunch of Clones that have been laying in my binder into the Hydra deck as replacements for the StWSs that I also took out. I play them where Hydra only clones its own creatures, with preference to Elite Head given when revealed.
It also doesn't say that you can assign damage to tapped heads, either, is my point. As for assigning blockers, I meant in the general sense, since you make the decisions for the Hydra. I can't very well tell a tapped creature to block now, can I?
Doesn't the hydra rules say "You attack the heads directly"?
It doesn't matter if they're tapped or untapped, you can still attack them (In flavour terms, why would a tired out head be impossible to attack?)
My testing is with 3 on 2, but we play with 2 pre-cons and my limited deck. The Hydra hasn't won yet. I even used two decks combined: all the major heads, with a head total of 24. I had one of each sorcery for novelty, but ended up using every other slot for Noxious Hydra Breath (where there's no choice-- wipe field, if you can't take 5), Unified Lunge (damage to each creature instead of each player), and Swallow the Hero Whole (Exile creatures with highest Power).
Still not putting up enough fight. There's nothing to do but start testing with more heads, and I'll see how that changes the mechanics. The problem with the Hydra is it doesn't have near enough removal-- it sort of just lets your field get as outrageous as you want, and if you survive the initial assault, you just become immortal as a team.
It's a race, not quite like it originally was concepted. Instead of racing to kill it before it kills you, you race to take control of the board for it does. Whoever does so wins, there's no back and forth. This is why I'm trying to give more sweeper effects to have more pendulum swings in-game. But two hydras just aren't quite cutting it so far. Still, this is a fun project to design for, gives me a weird fix like working on a Horde deck.
I make rules to try and give every element of Magic a purpose when you face the hydra, instead of most of magic just being "useless". It has required a ton of rules.
My most complicated rule is one making the hydra actually have a combat element. It gives the heads power equal to its toughness, and that "end-of-the turn burn" turns into an actual attack by the heads to each player, attacks that can be blocked, responded to, etc. If you let it through, you take the 1 damage or whatever, if you block it, you face it's full force.
So detain makes a head not deal any damage because it can't actually attack. And when you attack it, it's power doesn't matter (like in the original version) because it can't block.
I suppose because the Heads neither attack or block, detain does nothing?
"Snapping Fang Head, you are under arrest for the crime of swallowing a hero whole! The rest of you Hydra Heads are free to go about your business while we process the appropriate paperwork." - Azorius Arrester
"A rich man thinks all other people are rich, and an intelligent man thinks all other people are similarly gifted. Both are always terribly shocked when they discover the truth of the world. You, my dear brother, are a pious man." - Strahd von Zarovich
It also doesn't say that you can assign damage to tapped heads, either, is my point. As for assigning blockers, I meant in the general sense, since you make the decisions for the Hydra. I can't very well tell a tapped creature to block now, can I?
1.) It says that you can reassign damage to Heads. Period. It does not differentiate between tapped and untapped, so by default both are equally valid.
2.) The Hydra doesn't block unless you want it to. But you can attack any Head (tapped or untapped, s. a.) directly (which is not the same as blocking). It's about the same as attacking a tapped planeswalker.
That's the answer I was looking for, thank you.
You're welcome.
Good example - Mana Leak requires it's controller to pay to disable a counter. Hydra has no controller, nor does it control any mana, therefore this is an impossible action.
The alternative is an impossible action, so you have to default to the countering. But as long as you can counter the spell the overall effect does not constitute an impossible action.
Compare to playing Mana Leak against a player that has no mana.
Long story short: Mana Leak against the Hydra is a cheaper Cancel.
Note: Your wording is confusing some aspects. The Hydra has no controller, correct, but it is the controller of its Heads and implicitly also all the spells cast from the Hydra deck.
Control is explicitly mentioned as something the Hydra is capable of. It just doesn't have access to mana i. e. Banewasp Affliction on a Head sets up an easy two for one.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Do cipher cards work against The Hydra? You are attacking the hydra and redirecting the damage to the heads, so I would think it technically works, correct?
Do cipher cards work against The Hydra? You are attacking the hydra and redirecting the damage to the heads, so I would think it technically works, correct?
No. Cipher cares about whether the damage was actually dealt to a player, and the Hydra can't (usually) be dealt damage since damage is redirected to its Heads.* (And although the rules state that you can attack Heads directly, they don't actually prevent you from attacking the Hydra and redirecting the damage instead, so the question is relevant, even if it doesn't have the desired answer.)
Consider a similar situation in a conventional game of Magic in which your creature (with an encoded cipher spell) attacks someone who controls a Palisade Giant; even if the attacking creature isn't blocked, it ends up dealing its damage to the Giant, rather than a player, and the cipher trigger doesn't happen.
*Although the Hydra doesn't have a defined life total, you don't win until a turn ends, so you could deal damage to the Hydra itself after getting rid of all the Heads... even though there isn't actually any reason or need to do so. (Well, I suppose you could construct a convoluted scenario involving an encoded Voidwalk and a Cloned Abyssal Persecutor or something similar, but....)
Incidentally, this question caused me to consider that the rules don't actually say anything about whether the Hydra blocks, so with the rule that the player taking the challenge makes choices for the Hydra, a large creature or >1 power deathtouch creature could feasibly off multiple Heads in one attack by having the Hydra block it with all the Heads you want to kill.
Hmm we understood the rules as you attack heads like they were Planeswalkers. Aka if you have a >1 Power Deathtouch you're gonna have a... good time, but not as awesome as it could have been as you can only take out one head.
Incidentally, this question caused me to consider that the rules don't actually say anything about whether the Hydra blocks, so with the rule that the player taking the challenge makes choices for the Hydra, a large creature or >1 power deathtouch creature could feasibly off multiple Heads in one attack by having the Hydra block it with all the Heads you want to kill.
It's easily the least well thought out out part of the rules as provided.
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
It's just a mini-game. House rules are best for dealing with how to make it interesting. Personally, I'm trying to give as much of Magic a function as possible-- trying to make it play more like real Magic as opposed to the pseudo-Magic game it is with the original rules.
Otherwise, under normal rules, I can beat Hydra hardmode, with all 60 original cards, fairly consistently by myself with just an Elspeth Duel Deck.
We actually tried to play against the Hydra deck, 3 man with the decks we made from a Sealed pool (we cracked a Theros Booster Box to create 2 Sealed pools but ended up only using one of them in the end) and we managed to go win:lose at 8:2 or something.
We were kinda lucky to have a few Deathtouch creeps (which just screws up the format it seems) but overall just using Vaporkins, Returned Phalanx, Heroics or alike made it fairly easy.
We tried going Hard but only lost when we got screwed on early creatures (by getting swallowed right after casting) and hitting Elite Heads from downed Heads and Hydra drawing "Deal damage to each player equal to amount of Heads".
We even tried to stuff in Archenemy Schemes to increase the difficulty and just imagining all "Draw X cards" = turn X cards from Hydra's deck (that was a tough one as the Scheme draws 4 cards - yea we lost that round) and "Search for permanent" or alike that only affects players with a "real" deck would merely get ignored and a new Scheme would be drawn.
It got tougher but overall the experience was: "Far too easy" or "Yea, we're dead on turn 3-4".
And we were playing decks from Sealed pools of 6 boosters and without Hero-cards.
Some of the Hydra-cards didn't actually help the Hydra and thus decreased the difficulty by chance and sometimes made it too easy to win - like tapping heads to deal mediocre damage.
Sometimes we drew too many "Deal medium damage to players" and Elite Heads within the first couple of turns with no means to stabilize in time.
Having two decks separated to distinguish between some of the effects.
"">It will consist of cards the Hydra draws from each of its turns. These cards have major impacts like
"Deal damage equal to Heads."
Or
"Put 2 Standard Heads back from Graveyard onto Field or stuff next Head from "Effect-deck" onto battlefield."
Or
"Each player exiles a creature. Until the Hydra's next turn, whenever a Head dies, put the exiled creatures on the battlefield under their owners' control."
Generally these cards are meant to give the Hydra some unquestionable bonus but they are purely spells (no Hydra Heads here - but can be found through spell-effects).
Then it has another deck I'll choose to call
This one features Heads and small effects in a ratio around 1:2 or 1:3. Here you have both Standard and Elite Heads and a rather large sum of smaller effects like
"Tap up to two target creatures, they don't untap during their controllers next untap step"
or
"Target creature gets -X/-X where X is 9 divided by the amount of Heads, round down."
or
"Target player cannot cast spells or attack during his or hers next turn."
or it could be a very limited amount with a small negative effect for the Hydra like
"Tap target Head, it doesn't untap during the Hydra's next turn."
Basically anything that gives Heads or some small bonus. Whenever a Head is destroyed you turn 2 cards and do those effects. Granted this might be a little tough but I imagine WotC could have managed to sort out something that makes sense balance-wise.
I even used two decks combined: all the major heads, with a head total of 24.
Since my initial post a page back, I've bought 2 more Face the Hydra decks and basically added the heads from all 3 decks into 1 (regular & elite). Unfortunately, this left me with 54 cards total, all heads, so I threw in a couple of Unified Lunges, and 4 of the Hydra's Impenetrable Hide cards to give myself a full 60 cards and give anyone playing against it a little more unpredictability than you'd expect. The likelihood of dropping a sorcery into the graveyard is far higher than your chances of casting it, but hey, you win some and you lose some.
I must say, though, that once you've removed all the sorcery cards from the deck, it's surprisingly easy to wipe out the heads in play, even with the accumulated damage at the Hydra end step from untapped heads. Two of my buddies went up against it with a couple of crappy decks and wiped it pretty fast, but I'm inclined to believe that it was only because one had tons of deathtouch creatures, and the other had 3 Staff of the Wild Magus cards in play by turn 5. In a 1 vs 1 game, there have not yet been any winners but Hydra.
Provided you have a Whip of Erebos or something similar, you shouldn't have too tough a time no matter what you choose to use against it.
I love having 3 Savage Vigor Heads in play all at once.
I still want to see a vintage Dredge variant with two copies of The Harvester and a Kuro, Pit Lord try to go off on turn 1.
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I walked in to my shop, plunked down twelve simoleons, and left with my deck. I am 100% certain you will be able to do the same for the others as well. I am trying to decide if I am going to proxy or be lazy and buy another for customization.
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I'm not yet sure Challenge decks are as good as Horde magic decks though.
What I feel like (in casual), is that the Hydra decks are too strong at the beginning, and if you can pass the first hurdle, they become a bit easy when you can build a field. We lost most of the time because it would kill us in 4-5 turns each time before any deck could build up and do much- you have to have a quick starting deck rather than any casual one.
A lot of the time, the game would start and almost on the first Hydra turn, it would drop a hydra, deal us all 4-5, then on its 2nd turn, get the deal X damage card and hit us for all 8-12 and almost end the game. That's just too harsh when starting up a game.
I'm going to try making my own variations with it like Horde (which is perfect I might add) and see what happens.
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i love playing against it. we bought 2 hydra decks so we are going to to try a 2HG EDH. havent ironed out the details yet, but the primary objective is to kill the other team's hydra first.
Damn, you got a bunch of whiners on here, btw. If you can Mind Grind and win in 1 turn, it defeats the entire purpose of a challenge deck, guys. People are always working towards the fastest, easiest way to beat an opponent. What ever happened to strategy integrated into gameplay, instead of "my mom gave me $500 to buy the best cards from the series"? I appreciate a victory that I struggle to achieve rather than being a douche and paying for victory. Nevertheless...
I bought a copy of Face the Hydra on Monday morning last week. It became available for purchase the day previous, and it cost $12. I've played at least 20 solo games against it, as well as a few 2v1 & 3v1. While I really enjoy the deck, there are some rules that definitely need a little more clarification.
One of the rules that I noted needs additional info is the rule that states when a player attacks the Hydra, because the Hydra isn't a player and has no life total, any damage that would be dealt to the player would instead be dealt to a head. Now, let's pretend that I'm currently facing two standard 0/3 Hydra heads. On the Hydra's previous turn it flipped up a sorcery that required it to tap 2 heads and they remain tapped throughout the Hydra's next turn. I currently control 3 creatures, all with lifelink. Because both heads in play are tapped, I cannot assign any blockers (for Hydra) and thus the damage would be dealt directly to Hydra's life points, had it any in the first place. But the rules contradict at this point, stating that it would have to be assigned to a head. But none are available to assign it to, as both are currently tapped. How does one progress through a turn such as this? Do you assign damage to a head regardless, or is it a waste of 2 turns to attack with lifelink creatures that don't dealt combat damage and thus provide you with no benefits. Granted the two heads are tapped so you aren't taking additional damage for two turns, but still...
Another issue I've encountered is somewhat similar; my friend played against Hydra with an Eldrazi deck. He attacked me with his Rapacious One and then insisted that he be allowed to place his two 0/1 Eldrazi Spawn tokens onto the battlefield after attacking a 0/3 Hydra head, because his creature has trample, and any damage to a player creates new tokens. We debated on this for a while until I told him to shut his face because he can't deal damage to Hydra directly. Does that seem like a legit standpoint?
I'm also a little perplexed by the sorcery card "Swallow the Hero Whole," which states that a creature must be exiled by each player. Now, the wording on the card is a little off, and states Each player exiles a creature he or she controls. Until the Hydra's next turn, when a head leaves the battlefield, return the exiled creatures to the battlefield under their owners' control. I'm not sure if this is an AND/OR situation, or if the exiled creature returns to the field only when a head leaves play. The wording on the card seems to imply that they expect you'll kill at least one head each turn. I'm currently treating it as an AND/OR card, and returning the exiled card(s) on the Hydra's next turn, even if a head doesn't leave play that last turn. Or is it implying that you have until the Hydra's next turn to kill a head and get your creature back, or it's lost forever? Anyone?
Additionally, in regards to what I mentioned above about Hydra not being a player and having life points, is accurate. While Hydra is not a player, it still counts as an opponent, because the objective of the challenge deck is to have one or more players face the Hydra deck "with the Hydra as the only opponent." That being said, Hydra cannot be milled. Before anyone decides to start crying about it, keep in mind that there are sorcery cards in the Hydra deck that state "return 2 cards named Hydra Head from the graveyard to the battlefield, if you cannot, reveal cards from the top of the library until you locate one and cast it," and "If there are 5 or more heads in play, tap two. If there aren't, reveal cards from the top of the library until you locate a card named Hydra Head and cast it." These cards are hilarious because they self-mill the deck, with any cards that aren't Hydra Head thrown in the graveyard (yes, including Elite Heads, because the sorcery specifically calls for cards named Hydra Head).
Treating it as an opponent, Hydra heads can be mind controlled, but it does little for you, since you either play alone or with someone on your team, and Hydra doesn't attack directly, so controlling a 0/8 elite head won't help you at all. You'd still take damage for heads under your control because all sorcery cards specifically state "[...]heads on the battlefield," not "heads under Hydra's control" and elite heads with abilities like "1 extra damage per turn," or "At the beginning of Hydra's end step, the top card is revealed and played" is a rule that cannot be negated, from my understanding [EDIT: Assuming you aren't using something like Damping Matrix, which theoretically would work]. Whether under your control or not, these things happen as long as the head is in play. You'd be required to sacrifice or destroy any heads under your control to win still, and there's still the chance that more could turn up to replace them when you do so. Furthermore, because Hydra can be treated as an opponent, if you play a white-based lifegain deck, and include Silence (won't interfere with your teammates, only Hydra) and Kirtar's Wrath, you can win for 7 mana on any given turn that mana is available to you to spend, provided those cards are in hand at the same time.
You can counter any spells or creatures cast by Hydra, but you need to ensure that the cards you use don't specifically state "player" on them. Because Hydra has no lands, counter cards that require the player/opponent to pay a fee to prevent a counter card from activating are considered impossible actions and those cards would be rendered ineffective and go straight to a graveyard without countering anything. The most effective counter I've found so far is Unsummon. For a single mana, you can kill it. Since Hydra has no hand, the card goes to the graveyard. Unsummon is not an impossible action because the rules cover this by stating that when a head leaves the battlefield, it immediately gets put into the graveyard, but Hydra still gets to flip 2 new cards, because the governing rules state that "when a head leaves the battlefield, Hydra reveals the top two cards of its library and casts any heads." In other words, the Hydra card doesn't need to die, just leave the battlefield. This works to your advantage as well, since you gain life when it leaves play, too. Another good strategy is anything with deathtouch, as I saw a couple people mention previously in the thread.
The rules I see don't say you cannot redirect damage to a tapped Head. Also I see nothing about "assigning blockers" for the Hydra.
I don't think telling him to shut his face is a legit standpoint. That said the rule - as imprecisely as it is formulated - is written like a nonoptional replacement effect so the "Hydra" is never dealt damage.
The card text (as opposed to the more casually formulated "rules") is without ambiguity: The creatures are exiled without duration given. The triggered ability that could return them exists only until until the "Hydra"'s next turn.
If you do not manage to kill a Head in time, the creatures remain exiled indefinitely.
Are you talking about Mana Leak? This makes no sense. An impossible alternative action doesn't influence the main effect of a spell. Otherwise the same rules you just described should apply in a PvP match.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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It also doesn't say that you can assign damage to tapped heads, either, is my point. As for assigning blockers, I meant in the general sense, since you make the decisions for the Hydra. I can't very well tell a tapped creature to block now, can I?
You clearly haven't met this guy.
That's the answer I was looking for, thank you.
Good example - Mana Leak requires it's controller to pay to disable a counter. Hydra has no controller, nor does it control any mana, therefore this is an impossible action.
No, but the Hydra doesn't declare blockers; players attack the Heads directly.
? Mind Grind is not a money card. Cards that are particularly effective against the Hydra tend to be ineffective for competitive PvP play, and are consequently typically not particularly valuable.
This may be your interpretation of the reasoning behind the rule, but it's not accurate. The Hydra doesn't have a life total, but that doesn't mean the rules don't consider it to be a player.
Your interpretation is again inaccurate. Only players can be opponents. This doesn't affect Mind Grind, though, because Mind Grind specifies that "each opponent" mills. The Hydra has a library, it can reveal cards from the top of it, and those cards can be put into its graveyard directly from the library.
The Hydra can't be milled, but it mills itself? Your reading of the card also appears to be inaccurate. The sorcery card Grown from the Stump (the card to which you're referring) reads, in part, "until you reveal a Head card," which refers to any card with the creature subtype Head, including elite Heads.
You're correct that you still take damage from the triggered ability of Snapping Fang Head, and that Hydra Heads you control contribute to damage dealt by Unified Lunge, etc., but your reasoning is incorrect. They are not rules, but triggered abilities. They can be countered by spells or abilities that can counter triggered abilities (such as Voidslime or Stifle), and they can't be stopped by effects that prevent activated abilities from being used (the Damping Matrix you mentioned) because they're not activated.
On the other hand, the rule that cause you to be dealt damage during the Hydra's end step specifies untapped Heads the Hydra controls.
If it worked the way you thought it did, sure. Though why you would use Kirtar's Wrath rather than, say, Wrath of God or Supreme Verdict is questionable. In any case, that particular route doesn't work because the Hydra doesn't cast its replacement Heads; it puts them directly on the battlefield.
This interpretation is inaccurate, and the initial statement of the interpretation isn't even representative of its content. Consider Syncopate: it doesn't say "player" anywhere on it, and yet your claim about impossible actions applies to it. Nevertheless, the impossible action must be performed to stop the countering from occurring, and since the Hydra ignores it, it can't do so. Countering the spell isn't an impossible action, and countering a spell unless an impossible action is performed will happen even if the impossible action is "ignored."
Mana Leak requires the controller of the spell it's countering to pay (I suppose you might have been referring to that spell when you referred to "it", but a conventional reading of your sentence gives Mana Leak as the referent). The Hydra doesn't have a controller any more than another player does, but Mana Leak doesn't ask for the spell's controller's controller to pay a cost, but the controller of the spell. The Hydra controls the spells it casts. Nobody ever "controls" mana, but rather has mana in his or her mana pool. Again, it being impossible to perform the action that would prevent the spell from being countered simply means that the spell is countered.
Incidentally, the Hydra never draws cards, by either rules or effects (this is where impossible actions come in), so it doesn't lose to mill, except in the sense that it can't replace any more of its Heads, which still have to be removed in order to defeat the Hydra.
Better Challenge Deck Mode:
-Challenge decks ARE players if they aren't already (so the one card that deals 5 to each player deals it to itself too, which deals it to a head instead- it makes sense for the flavor of the card). This also allows milling, etc.
-We may steal creatures. Rule deleted. Might make it so a hydra's head dies if it switches zone OR control. Or might make it so the Hydra would only lose if all it's heads are gone from the battlefield regardless of control.
-You start with 2 heads to make the first 1-3 turns easier, but when one dies you look at the top 3 cards (or 4 cards in a harder mode) and play any heads. Harder modes can both increase beginning heads and play more heads when one dies. Starting with 4-6 heads is messed up no matter how many players you want. Dying on turn 3 when everyone finally gets their first creature that could kill a head is stupid.
^This solves 3 issues. This makes the beginning not too overwhelming. It makes Hydras progress better, making later turns not too easy. This makes it so when heads die, they don't just get sorceries as the top 2 cards most of the time like before which was lame.
-Like Horde magic, any costs you offer it to pay or make it pay (such as counter spell unless the Hydra pays 3) are paid. It has infinite mana for these. It would pay extra costs that would not be beneficial for itself.
-Choices on its own cards are made by you. Choices the Hydra makes on your cards are either random (like basic Horde magic) or are the smartest choice the Hydra would make (like smart Horde magic).
-It's deck being empty doesn't kill it.
-Damage from the heads counts as combat damage.
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I felt the same way, so I threw a bunch of Clones that have been laying in my binder into the Hydra deck as replacements for the StWSs that I also took out. I play them where Hydra only clones its own creatures, with preference to Elite Head given when revealed.
Doesn't the hydra rules say "You attack the heads directly"?
It doesn't matter if they're tapped or untapped, you can still attack them (In flavour terms, why would a tired out head be impossible to attack?)
Still not putting up enough fight. There's nothing to do but start testing with more heads, and I'll see how that changes the mechanics. The problem with the Hydra is it doesn't have near enough removal-- it sort of just lets your field get as outrageous as you want, and if you survive the initial assault, you just become immortal as a team.
It's a race, not quite like it originally was concepted. Instead of racing to kill it before it kills you, you race to take control of the board for it does. Whoever does so wins, there's no back and forth. This is why I'm trying to give more sweeper effects to have more pendulum swings in-game. But two hydras just aren't quite cutting it so far. Still, this is a fun project to design for, gives me a weird fix like working on a Horde deck.
My most complicated rule is one making the hydra actually have a combat element. It gives the heads power equal to its toughness, and that "end-of-the turn burn" turns into an actual attack by the heads to each player, attacks that can be blocked, responded to, etc. If you let it through, you take the 1 damage or whatever, if you block it, you face it's full force.
So detain makes a head not deal any damage because it can't actually attack. And when you attack it, it's power doesn't matter (like in the original version) because it can't block.
"Snapping Fang Head, you are under arrest for the crime of swallowing a hero whole! The rest of you Hydra Heads are free to go about your business while we process the appropriate paperwork." - Azorius Arrester
"Aww, man!" - Snapping Fang Head
"Them's the breaks bro!" - Shrieking Titan Head
Damage is based on the number of untapped heads in play.
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1.) It says that you can reassign damage to Heads. Period. It does not differentiate between tapped and untapped, so by default both are equally valid.
2.) The Hydra doesn't block unless you want it to. But you can attack any Head (tapped or untapped, s. a.) directly (which is not the same as blocking). It's about the same as attacking a tapped planeswalker.
You're welcome.
The alternative is an impossible action, so you have to default to the countering. But as long as you can counter the spell the overall effect does not constitute an impossible action.
Compare to playing Mana Leak against a player that has no mana.
Long story short: Mana Leak against the Hydra is a cheaper Cancel.
Note: Your wording is confusing some aspects. The Hydra has no controller, correct, but it is the controller of its Heads and implicitly also all the spells cast from the Hydra deck.
Control is explicitly mentioned as something the Hydra is capable of. It just doesn't have access to mana i. e. Banewasp Affliction on a Head sets up an easy two for one.
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No. Cipher cares about whether the damage was actually dealt to a player, and the Hydra can't (usually) be dealt damage since damage is redirected to its Heads.* (And although the rules state that you can attack Heads directly, they don't actually prevent you from attacking the Hydra and redirecting the damage instead, so the question is relevant, even if it doesn't have the desired answer.)
Consider a similar situation in a conventional game of Magic in which your creature (with an encoded cipher spell) attacks someone who controls a Palisade Giant; even if the attacking creature isn't blocked, it ends up dealing its damage to the Giant, rather than a player, and the cipher trigger doesn't happen.
*Although the Hydra doesn't have a defined life total, you don't win until a turn ends, so you could deal damage to the Hydra itself after getting rid of all the Heads... even though there isn't actually any reason or need to do so. (Well, I suppose you could construct a convoluted scenario involving an encoded Voidwalk and a Cloned Abyssal Persecutor or something similar, but....)
Incidentally, this question caused me to consider that the rules don't actually say anything about whether the Hydra blocks, so with the rule that the player taking the challenge makes choices for the Hydra, a large creature or >1 power deathtouch creature could feasibly off multiple Heads in one attack by having the Hydra block it with all the Heads you want to kill.
It's easily the least well thought out out part of the rules as provided.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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Otherwise, under normal rules, I can beat Hydra hardmode, with all 60 original cards, fairly consistently by myself with just an Elspeth Duel Deck.
We were kinda lucky to have a few Deathtouch creeps (which just screws up the format it seems) but overall just using Vaporkins, Returned Phalanx, Heroics or alike made it fairly easy.
We even tried to stuff in Archenemy Schemes to increase the difficulty and just imagining all "Draw X cards" = turn X cards from Hydra's deck (that was a tough one as the Scheme draws 4 cards - yea we lost that round) and "Search for permanent" or alike that only affects players with a "real" deck would merely get ignored and a new Scheme would be drawn.
It got tougher but overall the experience was: "Far too easy" or "Yea, we're dead on turn 3-4".
And we were playing decks from Sealed pools of 6 boosters and without Hero-cards.
Some of the Hydra-cards didn't actually help the Hydra and thus decreased the difficulty by chance and sometimes made it too easy to win - like tapping heads to deal mediocre damage.
Sometimes we drew too many "Deal medium damage to players" and Elite Heads within the first couple of turns with no means to stabilize in time.
"Deal damage equal to Heads."
Or
"Put 2 Standard Heads back from Graveyard onto Field or stuff next Head from "Effect-deck" onto battlefield."
Or
"Each player exiles a creature. Until the Hydra's next turn, whenever a Head dies, put the exiled creatures on the battlefield under their owners' control."
Generally these cards are meant to give the Hydra some unquestionable bonus but they are purely spells (no Hydra Heads here - but can be found through spell-effects).
Then it has another deck I'll choose to call
This one features Heads and small effects in a ratio around 1:2 or 1:3. Here you have both Standard and Elite Heads and a rather large sum of smaller effects like
"Tap up to two target creatures, they don't untap during their controllers next untap step"
or
"Target creature gets -X/-X where X is 9 divided by the amount of Heads, round down."
or
"Target player cannot cast spells or attack during his or hers next turn."
or it could be a very limited amount with a small negative effect for the Hydra like
"Tap target Head, it doesn't untap during the Hydra's next turn."
Since my initial post a page back, I've bought 2 more Face the Hydra decks and basically added the heads from all 3 decks into 1 (regular & elite). Unfortunately, this left me with 54 cards total, all heads, so I threw in a couple of Unified Lunges, and 4 of the Hydra's Impenetrable Hide cards to give myself a full 60 cards and give anyone playing against it a little more unpredictability than you'd expect. The likelihood of dropping a sorcery into the graveyard is far higher than your chances of casting it, but hey, you win some and you lose some.
I must say, though, that once you've removed all the sorcery cards from the deck, it's surprisingly easy to wipe out the heads in play, even with the accumulated damage at the Hydra end step from untapped heads. Two of my buddies went up against it with a couple of crappy decks and wiped it pretty fast, but I'm inclined to believe that it was only because one had tons of deathtouch creatures, and the other had 3 Staff of the Wild Magus cards in play by turn 5. In a 1 vs 1 game, there have not yet been any winners but Hydra.
Provided you have a Whip of Erebos or something similar, you shouldn't have too tough a time no matter what you choose to use against it.
I love having 3 Savage Vigor Heads in play all at once.