Yeah, that's super disappointing for everyone who expects to get cards for their Standard decks from a product aimed at casual players.
Well, I don't see why it can't do both: provide quality cards and offer fun decks for casual players.
In fact, if the cards were of relevant in standard, then you might see more of those casuals decide to take it to the next level and start playing at FNM or other tournaments in the shop, which is good for everyone.
Well, I don't see why it can't do both: provide quality cards and offer fun decks for casual players.
Because if they were chock full of standard playables they'd be gutted for singles and the target demographic would have a harder time getting a hold of it.
My only issue with the art is that Jace looks like a vampire. Well at least it's better than Jace, Memory Adept, which was a cross between a makeup covered 80s rock musician and anime character... but it's hard to complain seeing that Jace AOT is currently going for $20 on the mid and this product will cost $20, so in a way it's like every other card in the deck is free. Or you'll be able to buy AOT singles cheaper after its release. Vamp Jace to the rescue!
Because if they were chock full of standard playables they'd be gutted for singles and the target demographic would have a harder time getting a hold of it.
There's pretty clearly a middleground. Even if you ignore the obvious impact of printing certain cards in that sort of a format (look at Polukranos), there's a balance between filling them with $30 worth of standard playable cards or $2 worth of standard playable cards.
There's pretty clearly a middleground. Even if you ignore the obvious impact of printing certain cards in that sort of a format (look at Polukranos), there's a balance between filling them with $30 worth of standard playable cards or $2 worth of standard playable cards.
Typically, Duel Deck reprints are aimed at other audiences than Standard - see Demonic Tutor from Divine vs Demonic, Life From The Loam from Izzet vs Golgari, etc. When they try to reprint standard cards in box sets or promos, they run into two problems:
1) They don't know what will be good. WOTC's Future Future league figures some stuff out, but the fact is that the playerbase is a million monkeys - we're trying things that they just don't have time to, and we often find cards that they don't. Look at this past year's Ravnica block FNMs. How many of them were amazing standard cards, and how many were 'Eh, could've been better'? They operate so far in the future that it's difficult for them to pick up on trends.
2) They don't want to compete with themselves. If this duel deck were in stores now - or this past September, say - how many people would buy RTR boosters hoping to crack a planeswalker? None - people would just buy the deck. Chase cards are called that for a reason - people buy packs hoping to find them. If chase cards are easily available, then fewer packs are sold.
All that isn't to say that they don't try - Polukranos is a good example of where they succeeded. Just that it's really hard for them, especially with the duel decks, which actually get playtested and developed.
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Typically, Duel Deck reprints are aimed at other audiences than Standard - see Demonic Tutor from Divine vs Demonic, Life From The Loam from Izzet vs Golgari, etc. When they try to reprint standard cards in box sets or promos, they run into two problems:
1) They don't know what will be good. WOTC's Future Future league figures some stuff out, but the fact is that the playerbase is a million monkeys - we're trying things that they just don't have time to, and we often find cards that they don't. Look at this past year's Ravnica block FNMs. How many of them were amazing standard cards, and how many were 'Eh, could've been better'? They operate so far in the future that it's difficult for them to pick up on trends.
2) They don't want to compete with themselves. If this duel deck were in stores now - or this past September, say - how many people would buy RTR boosters hoping to crack a planeswalker? None - people would just buy the deck. Chase cards are called that for a reason - people buy packs hoping to find them. If chase cards are easily available, then fewer packs are sold.
All that isn't to say that they don't try - Polukranos is a good example of where they succeeded. Just that it's really hard for them, especially with the duel decks, which actually get playtested and developed.
Um, I understand all of that. My point was that the argument that "too many good cards will make Duel Decks impossible for casual players to get" isn't at all relevant. Obviously if they jam $80 worth of value into a $20 Duel Deck, everyone will buy it and dismantle it for singles, but as long as it's under $20 worth of cards (or even a little over $20, as the singles' prices will decrease), that's not an issue.
There's pretty clearly a middleground. Even if you ignore the obvious impact of printing certain cards in that sort of a format (look at Polukranos), there's a balance between filling them with $30 worth of standard playable cards or $2 worth of standard playable cards.
Or standard players could accept the fact that not everything needs to cater to them.
Um, I understand all of that. My point was that the argument that "too many good cards will make Duel Decks impossible for casual players to get" isn't at all relevant. Obviously if they jam $80 worth of value into a $20 Duel Deck, everyone will buy it and dismantle it for singles, but as long as it's under $20 worth of cards (or even a little over $20, as the singles' prices will decrease), that's not an issue.
Ah, my apologies, then. I completely misunderstood your post. Carry on!
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Or standard players could accept the fact that not everything needs to cater to them.
It would cater to casual and new players better if it had a few good cards in it, too, obviously. Not only would the decks be slightly more powerful (which everyone knows is more fun), but with even the slightest bit of research they'd realize that they can upgrade it into a real, semi-competitive deck for less money. Why do you think Heroes vs Monsters has Polukranos? He's not blatantly powerful to a new player who won't realize he's undercosted at 5/5 for 4 or that with a Nykthos generating mana, he can wrath most of an opponent's board.
PS: I'm not even suggesting that they're not at a good place, I was simply commenting on the absurd logic that there are only two options: no valuable singles or so many valuable singles that people just buy them to resell them. Arguing the two extremes is silly and should be called out.
Or standard players could accept the fact that not everything needs to cater to them.
Standard players (because the Magic community is clearly segregated by formats..? huh..?) actually drive most of Wizard's business, and usually get shafted the most. Prices, availability, rotations, promos... they get the short end of the stick more often than not (but get more support at FNMs I suppose- but that's a silver lining).
Every other format is mostly handled on the secondary market, and don't have to deal with rotations at all really. So I can understand the disappointment when products clearly aimed at trying to be relevant fall short by a few months, etc (FNM promos are legendary for arriving a second after they were actually legal/playable).
The Magic community is a single entity, what or how you play is personal. Hating on a portion of the community because you don't perceive their issues as valid is unproductive, since their issues will probably effect everyone else in one way or another.
Anyways, I love the art, and both planeswalkers are playable. I'll grab one.
Or standard players could accept the fact that not everything needs to cater to them.
Actually I wish DRAFT/LIMITED players would understand this, or rather, that Wizards would focus attention on ANYTHING OTHER THAN DRAFT. But that's another matter entirely...
Because if they were chock full of standard playables they'd be gutted for singles and the target demographic would have a harder time getting a hold of it.
Or they could just print more to meet demand. Also, these shouldn't be in Target at all: keep them in Local Game Stores unless none are around.
Or they could just print more to meet demand. Also, these shouldn't be in Target at all: keep them in Local Game Stores unless none are around.
Yeah, that largely doesn't have a single thing to do with Wizards, that's handled through distributors, who can pretty much place them where they please.
I also can't quite decide if you misunderstood on purpose or not.
It would cater to casual and new players better if it had a few good cards in it, too, obviously. Not only would the decks be slightly more powerful (which everyone knows is more fun), but with even the slightest bit of research they'd realize that they can upgrade it into a real, semi-competitive deck for less money. Why do you think Heroes vs Monsters has Polukranos? He's not blatantly powerful to a new player who won't realize he's undercosted at 5/5 for 4 or that with a Nykthos generating mana, he can wrath most of an opponent's board.
PS: I'm not even suggesting that they're not at a good place, I was simply commenting on the absurd logic that there are only two options: no valuable singles or so many valuable singles that people just buy them to resell them. Arguing the two extremes is silly and should be called out.
Just because a card isn't standard playable doesn't mean it's not playable at all.
Standard players (because the Magic community is clearly segregated by formats..? huh..?) actually drive most of Wizard's business, and usually get shafted the most. Prices, availability, rotations, promos... they get the short end of the stick more often than not (but get more support at FNMs I suppose- but that's a silver lining).
The answer to the problem "WotC needs to be nicer to Standard players" isn't "take something catered to casual players, and make it cater to Standard players instead".
So I can understand the disappointment when products clearly aimed at trying to be relevant fall short by a few months, etc (FNM promos are legendary for arriving a second after they were actually legal/playable).
You're assuming that these products are "clearly aimed at trying to be relevant" to the Standard-playing crowd.
Hating on a portion of the community because you don't perceive their issues as valid is unproductive, since their issues will probably effect everyone else in one way or another.
I hate on anybody with an overinflated sense of entitlement. The moment someone starts whining about how standard staples suck because they aren't good in EDH, or about how the Event Decks need to have more Legacy playables, I'll be sure to call them out on it. But since it's almost always Standard players complaining, it's almost always Standard players I end up criticizing.
Bacl
Or they could just print more to meet demand. Also, these shouldn't be in Target at all: keep them in Local Game Stores unless none are around.
This a blatantly stupid statement. Not every player has a game store close buy. Driving an 1hr+ is not close by. Some players would pass by at least 3 Wal-Marts and 3 Targets before actually getting to a game store. What your suggesting is to turn all supplemental products into FtV's. Excluding them from such places would defeat the purpose of getting them to people so they can play.
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WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
This a blatantly stupid statement. Not every player has a game store close buy. Driving an 1hr+ is not close by. Some players would pass by at least 3 Wal-Marts and 3 Targets before actually getting to a game store. What your suggesting is to turn all supplemental products into FtV's. Excluding them from such places would defeat the purpose of getting them to people so they can play.
First, it was my attempt (I gotta stop doing those!) at a joke. A bit of dry humor (the previous post had referred to "target customers" so I commented on Target customers...I know, I know :rolleyes:....)
Second, I did say that if there wasn't an LGS in the area then there's no problem with product like this being sold at Target and other big box sellers. I just think the priority should be on the brick and mortar stores that host our tournaments. I don't like the fact that the mom and pop shops that do so much for the community are in competition with giant corporate chains like Target and Walmart. I can't play FNM at Target, so I don't want them helping to drive my LGS out of business.
First, it was my attempt (I gotta stop doing those!) at a joke. A bit of dry humor (the previous post had referred to "target customers" so I commented on Target customers...I know, I know :rolleyes:....)
The major problem with your joke is that it wasn't "customers" but "demographics".
Second, I did say that if there wasn't an LGS in the area then there's no problem with product like this being sold at Target and other big box sellers. I just think the priority should be on the brick and mortar stores that host our tournaments. I don't like the fact that the mom and pop shops that do so much for the community are in competition with giant corporate chains like Target and Walmart. I can't play FNM at Target, so I don't want them helping to drive my LGS out of business.
The big thing about that is the fact that it isn't Target or Wal Mart that are stocking those. Those products are stocked as vendor slots, meaning that it is an independent product renting shelf space at those stores. It's most often than not the distributors who send people to stock those products, and the same distributors are the ones who fill orders for LGS. Technically, you're getting it all from the SAME PEOPLE, with only the intermediary being different. And really, it boils down to the fact that you choose where you buy. If you see someone picking up a duel deck at a big box store, stop them and tell them they can go buy it from the LGS... or the LGS is out of product and the only way to get it would be from the Big Box Store.
An important thing to think about is the fact that the LGS submits orders of what they are willing to put on the line to see it sell. The BBS has a vendor that directly restocks depending on how much has already sold. They don't have the same pressure the LGS does in buying the product in the first place.
I think the Jace art isn't bad. It isn't terribly exciting, but that's not a bad thing. I like simpler things about cards as much as I like the complicated things. Vraska looks good too.
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A giant dork. Who likes to eat with forks. Never used a spork.
Decks: Casual R Burn R
EDH R Godo Voltron R RUG ETB Overload RUG BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW GW Spirits!!! GW RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
I am fine with the Jace art, but I really wish I wasn't seeing Jack. I feel like Jace's duties as the Living Guildpact are going to be affected by WotC's whoring of him.
On a different note, duel decks come in two forms, the Planeswalker decks, and the "Flavor Set-Up" decks. FSU is like the Heroes v. Monsters deck, where it shows us what the next block is going to be doing flavor-, and occasionally mechanic-, wise. They tend to be geared towards diehard standard players IMO, since they let us try out the "leaked cards" (Polukranos/Anax and Cynede anyone?) and get into the mood for the next block. The Planeswalker decks are aimed toward casual and non-standard players (also my opinion). One of the hard things to do if you are just casually playing magic, buying a few packs here or there, is getting a Planeswalker. These decks let them do it, and give them 2 semi-solid decks. Legacy wants these decks because they get reprints of some pretty cool cards (granted, FSU decks reprint too, but they are more aimed at the future set/block, PW is aimed towards building a deck around a PW using cards that fit them). Really, I don't see why we are arguing over this. They print 2 forms of DD. I tend to buy the FSU ones, but might get this one. I like Architect's abilities, and I wouldn't mind having 2 different forms of Vraska in my gorgon deck.
Or they could just print more to meet demand. Also, these shouldn't be in Target at all: keep them in Local Game Stores unless none are around.
none of my local game stores sell the fun supplimental products (duel decks, FTV, commander, event decks) at MSRP, they pretty much set their prices with SCG
I'd rather places like target and wallmart get flooded with duel decks so I can pick them up at the price that WotC intended (but ideally I would rather have wizards sell some of the supplimental products directly from their own website at MSRP)
but ideally I would rather have wizards sell some of the supplemental products directly from their own website at MSRP
This. 100000000%.
Wizards should stop the cartels from fleecing. They could also limit buyers to 2-4 sets to prevent hoarding, in case there's an insane card or two in a precon.
I believe the majority of True-Name Nemesis (Nemesi?) are still in binders and/or packages rather than the sleeves of players who want to play them.
Well, I don't see why it can't do both: provide quality cards and offer fun decks for casual players.
In fact, if the cards were of relevant in standard, then you might see more of those casuals decide to take it to the next level and start playing at FNM or other tournaments in the shop, which is good for everyone.
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
Because if they were chock full of standard playables they'd be gutted for singles and the target demographic would have a harder time getting a hold of it.
Level 1 Judge
I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
There's pretty clearly a middleground. Even if you ignore the obvious impact of printing certain cards in that sort of a format (look at Polukranos), there's a balance between filling them with $30 worth of standard playable cards or $2 worth of standard playable cards.
Typically, Duel Deck reprints are aimed at other audiences than Standard - see Demonic Tutor from Divine vs Demonic, Life From The Loam from Izzet vs Golgari, etc. When they try to reprint standard cards in box sets or promos, they run into two problems:
1) They don't know what will be good. WOTC's Future Future league figures some stuff out, but the fact is that the playerbase is a million monkeys - we're trying things that they just don't have time to, and we often find cards that they don't. Look at this past year's Ravnica block FNMs. How many of them were amazing standard cards, and how many were 'Eh, could've been better'? They operate so far in the future that it's difficult for them to pick up on trends.
2) They don't want to compete with themselves. If this duel deck were in stores now - or this past September, say - how many people would buy RTR boosters hoping to crack a planeswalker? None - people would just buy the deck. Chase cards are called that for a reason - people buy packs hoping to find them. If chase cards are easily available, then fewer packs are sold.
All that isn't to say that they don't try - Polukranos is a good example of where they succeeded. Just that it's really hard for them, especially with the duel decks, which actually get playtested and developed.
Um, I understand all of that. My point was that the argument that "too many good cards will make Duel Decks impossible for casual players to get" isn't at all relevant. Obviously if they jam $80 worth of value into a $20 Duel Deck, everyone will buy it and dismantle it for singles, but as long as it's under $20 worth of cards (or even a little over $20, as the singles' prices will decrease), that's not an issue.
Or standard players could accept the fact that not everything needs to cater to them.
Ah, my apologies, then. I completely misunderstood your post. Carry on!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsjKsaxbnds <- Me.
Trades! Alters! Oh My!
Legacy: WUBRGDredgeGRBUW
EDH:BG Nath of the Guilty GearGB (defunct)
BUGDamia, Toolbox of Stone GUB
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Server: Fort Aspenwood
Character: Anarchy Stockingu - Lvl 80 Asura Engineer
It would cater to casual and new players better if it had a few good cards in it, too, obviously. Not only would the decks be slightly more powerful (which everyone knows is more fun), but with even the slightest bit of research they'd realize that they can upgrade it into a real, semi-competitive deck for less money. Why do you think Heroes vs Monsters has Polukranos? He's not blatantly powerful to a new player who won't realize he's undercosted at 5/5 for 4 or that with a Nykthos generating mana, he can wrath most of an opponent's board.
PS: I'm not even suggesting that they're not at a good place, I was simply commenting on the absurd logic that there are only two options: no valuable singles or so many valuable singles that people just buy them to resell them. Arguing the two extremes is silly and should be called out.
Standard players (because the Magic community is clearly segregated by formats..? huh..?) actually drive most of Wizard's business, and usually get shafted the most. Prices, availability, rotations, promos... they get the short end of the stick more often than not (but get more support at FNMs I suppose- but that's a silver lining).
Every other format is mostly handled on the secondary market, and don't have to deal with rotations at all really. So I can understand the disappointment when products clearly aimed at trying to be relevant fall short by a few months, etc (FNM promos are legendary for arriving a second after they were actually legal/playable).
The Magic community is a single entity, what or how you play is personal. Hating on a portion of the community because you don't perceive their issues as valid is unproductive, since their issues will probably effect everyone else in one way or another.
Anyways, I love the art, and both planeswalkers are playable. I'll grab one.
Art Page
Alters for sale
Actually I wish DRAFT/LIMITED players would understand this, or rather, that Wizards would focus attention on ANYTHING OTHER THAN DRAFT. But that's another matter entirely...
Or they could just print more to meet demand. Also, these shouldn't be in Target at all: keep them in Local Game Stores unless none are around.
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
Yeah, that largely doesn't have a single thing to do with Wizards, that's handled through distributors, who can pretty much place them where they please.
I also can't quite decide if you misunderstood on purpose or not.
Just because a card isn't standard playable doesn't mean it's not playable at all.
The answer to the problem "WotC needs to be nicer to Standard players" isn't "take something catered to casual players, and make it cater to Standard players instead".
You're assuming that these products are "clearly aimed at trying to be relevant" to the Standard-playing crowd.
No it's not. No group of people is.
I hate on anybody with an overinflated sense of entitlement. The moment someone starts whining about how standard staples suck because they aren't good in EDH, or about how the Event Decks need to have more Legacy playables, I'll be sure to call them out on it. But since it's almost always Standard players complaining, it's almost always Standard players I end up criticizing.
This a blatantly stupid statement. Not every player has a game store close buy. Driving an 1hr+ is not close by. Some players would pass by at least 3 Wal-Marts and 3 Targets before actually getting to a game store. What your suggesting is to turn all supplemental products into FtV's. Excluding them from such places would defeat the purpose of getting them to people so they can play.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
First, it was my attempt (I gotta stop doing those!) at a joke. A bit of dry humor (the previous post had referred to "target customers" so I commented on Target customers...I know, I know :rolleyes:....)
Second, I did say that if there wasn't an LGS in the area then there's no problem with product like this being sold at Target and other big box sellers. I just think the priority should be on the brick and mortar stores that host our tournaments. I don't like the fact that the mom and pop shops that do so much for the community are in competition with giant corporate chains like Target and Walmart. I can't play FNM at Target, so I don't want them helping to drive my LGS out of business.
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
The major problem with your joke is that it wasn't "customers" but "demographics".
The big thing about that is the fact that it isn't Target or Wal Mart that are stocking those. Those products are stocked as vendor slots, meaning that it is an independent product renting shelf space at those stores. It's most often than not the distributors who send people to stock those products, and the same distributors are the ones who fill orders for LGS. Technically, you're getting it all from the SAME PEOPLE, with only the intermediary being different. And really, it boils down to the fact that you choose where you buy. If you see someone picking up a duel deck at a big box store, stop them and tell them they can go buy it from the LGS... or the LGS is out of product and the only way to get it would be from the Big Box Store.
An important thing to think about is the fact that the LGS submits orders of what they are willing to put on the line to see it sell. The BBS has a vendor that directly restocks depending on how much has already sold. They don't have the same pressure the LGS does in buying the product in the first place.
Decks:
Casual
R Burn R
EDH
R Godo Voltron R
RUG ETB Overload RUG
BW Clerics Pain and Drain BW
GW Spirits!!! GW
RUG Landfall Silliness RUG
This dueldeck better be as good as Elspeth vs. Tezzeret, cause lately all of them have sucked.
Dude, it releases in the middle of March. Decklist is still at the very least 8 weeks away.
On a different note, duel decks come in two forms, the Planeswalker decks, and the "Flavor Set-Up" decks. FSU is like the Heroes v. Monsters deck, where it shows us what the next block is going to be doing flavor-, and occasionally mechanic-, wise. They tend to be geared towards diehard standard players IMO, since they let us try out the "leaked cards" (Polukranos/Anax and Cynede anyone?) and get into the mood for the next block. The Planeswalker decks are aimed toward casual and non-standard players (also my opinion). One of the hard things to do if you are just casually playing magic, buying a few packs here or there, is getting a Planeswalker. These decks let them do it, and give them 2 semi-solid decks. Legacy wants these decks because they get reprints of some pretty cool cards (granted, FSU decks reprint too, but they are more aimed at the future set/block, PW is aimed towards building a deck around a PW using cards that fit them). Really, I don't see why we are arguing over this. They print 2 forms of DD. I tend to buy the FSU ones, but might get this one. I like Architect's abilities, and I wouldn't mind having 2 different forms of Vraska in my gorgon deck.
When asking for if something was stolen on Kamigawa:
Have some irony:
none of my local game stores sell the fun supplimental products (duel decks, FTV, commander, event decks) at MSRP, they pretty much set their prices with SCG
I'd rather places like target and wallmart get flooded with duel decks so I can pick them up at the price that WotC intended (but ideally I would rather have wizards sell some of the supplimental products directly from their own website at MSRP)
This. 100000000%.
Wizards should stop the cartels from fleecing. They could also limit buyers to 2-4 sets to prevent hoarding, in case there's an insane card or two in a precon.
I believe the majority of True-Name Nemesis (Nemesi?) are still in binders and/or packages rather than the sleeves of players who want to play them.
Duel decks will never have this issue though.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Some supplemental products, as in the comm 2013 products, are only legal for vintage, legacy, and EDH. Duel decks have cards playable for standard.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list