No, I asked when something similar to Scry 1 on a CIPT tapped dual land has been done before. Gain 1 life is a fair amount worse than Scry 1 (outside odd circumstances).
Fair enough, I misread your post. No-one argues that 1 life is anything but worse than Scry 1. However, the point remains that the Refuge cycle is in fact an example of CIPT-plus lands that you're talking about.
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Quotes from gaming:
From a discussion about skipping town and fleeing from the law:
"Quick, torch the legal system and run!" said no one, ever.
While trying to ambush a creature who favored grabbing and strangling PCs:
"Ok, so Tieflings are resistant to fire, right?" "Right" "Alright, so I light myself on fire so he can't grab me."
Let's leave the Gates out of this and just say that almost every dual that was hardtapped at ETB has been Uncommon. If a land is rare, it's typically had some option for coming in untapped (even if narrow). The only exceptions to this rule that I can think of are the Dual Manlands and the Hideaway lands.
This means we're expected to consider a free, one-time Scry 1 on par with the ability to play a card for 2 mana (and ignore timing restrictions). I shouldn't even need to explain the latter ability is worlds ahead of Scry 1. (And this goes double for Manlands.)
So the enduring problem is the argument that adding Scry 1 turns an unmitigated Uncommon into a Rare. Literally no other card (or cards) ever needed this argument to justify its rarity. And Wizards themselves admits that it's potentially (read: likely) Uncommon design. Their rarity is thus arbitrary and artificial. This is why it bothers me (and many others).
Yes, a bit a pity that they are rare's, and only have scry1.
But there's a black\white dual land in between, so maybe there'll be black/white spells and/or creatures in it.
I'm rather exited and can't wait until the remains are shown!
Love the set so far!!
Cheers from Holland
Make no mistake that I like this set. I've actually chosen to reserve judgment on most of the cards (especially the two playable 'walkers). But but design (and Rarity) deserves to be denounced.
I'm going to go ahead and try to put this land cycle into perspective compared to other lands (that tapped for one or more colors or fetched for lands) that were printed since the Time Spiral-Coldsnap super block (when I first started playing MtG), as well as occasionally comparing many of those lands together for the sake of enhanced perspective.
The Storage Lands are uncommons that ETB untapped and can thus tap for 1 right away, so it doesn't slow down your overall mana curve like other ETB-tapped lands (like the Scry Lands or the 8th Edition lands). It is obvious though that one of the major drawbacks of these lands is that they cannot tap for colored mana without first investing mana into them via storage counters, unlike the new Theros lands which give you access to your two colors every turn after the turn you play them. A huge boon of them, though, is that you can unleash huge stores of colored mana that you have stored away in them at any time just by paying 1. I (and others) have caught many people off guard in EDH and Time Spiral Standard by tapping the storage land for 1, then during the opponent's turn tapping a different land for mana to withdraw some colored mana out of my storage lands to cast a response. Granted, there is a time investment in these lands, and they are a prime target for LD, but the ability of these lands to give you quick bursts of mana is uncanny. Overall, I'd say that restriction for color access on these lands balanced by the huge surge of mana later, but still being able to tap them for mana the turn they ETB is equivalent to these new lands that ETB tapped but let you Scry 1 and give you unrestricted access to colored mana every turn thereafter. Just a reminder, the Storage Lands are uncommon and the new Scry Lands are Rare.
I'll start with Nimbus Maze. Nimbus Maze is largely what the Magic Core Set lands appear to be based on. It ETB untapped, and can tap for 1 immediately, which overall doesn't put you behind on your mana curve. It can tap for colored mana, but the catch is that it only taps for whatever Azorious color in which you are deficient in terms of basic lands. This is largely a non-issue on later turns when you are more likely to have an Island and/or Plains or a dual land like Hallowed Fountain. An extremely powerful land for control/blink decks at the time due to the fact that (most of the time, unless you were extremely unlucky) it either rounded out your color access or was able to tap for one of both colors. Based on the fact that it ETB untapped an has a very mild restriction that is easily circumvented places it well above a two-color land that ETB tapped with the only upside being that you get to Scry 1.
Next is Horizon Canopy. It ETB untapped an gives you unrestricted access to two colors with the downside that you lose 1 life each time without being able to circumvent it by tapping it for 1 instead like with the Pain Lands. As an additional upside to these drawbacks, you also have the option to sacrifice it to draw a card. This was really useful back in Time Spiral Standard because if you were behind and needed to get those answers or if you were on top and just wanted to push a little harder, you could get that extra resource out of it. Comparing it to the Scry lands, Scry 1 once when it ETB is definitely a lot less harsh than drawing a card at the expense of sacrificing that land; however; being able to draw that card at any time, particularly when you really need that card advantage in a match vs having a one shot Scry effect that may not really have a consequence on the current game state makes the draw effect much more potent. Also losing 1 life as a consequence of being able to access its colors the turn it ETB is hardly a drawback compared to the upside, especially since late in the game (when losing that 1 life matters drastically more), you can just instead sacrifice it to draw a card (which hopefully gives you that extra push to turn the game around or win the game).
Then we have River of Tears. This is an odd land. It ETB untapped and allows you to tap for colored mana the turn it ETB; however, depending on whether you played a land this turn determines the color you get out of the land. Back during Time Spiral Standard this was largely inconsequential, since if you wanted blue you could tap it before you played your land, and if you wanted black you could tap it after. In the decks that ran it (like Blink decks), it was essentially an awesome land that ETB untapped and tapped for either mana with the restriction that it only tapped for black the turn you play it. This makes it very much the better card when compared to lands that ETB tapped, even with a minor upside.
Finally, we have Grove of the Burnwillows. God, this land is amazing in any aggro deck. Your opponents gained 1 life? Doesn't really matter when it allows you unrestricted access to mana to play your awesome burn spells and creatures. And if you don't want to let your opponents to gain life, you can just tap it for colorless mana! Crazy. During Time Spiral Standard, this land was Kavu Predator's best friend, and in Extended and Modern allowed for crazy decks that maximized the benefit of the downside with cards like Punishing Fire; allowing players to keep Faerie decks in check. A land that gives you unrestricted access to two colors of mana starting the turn you play it with a downside that can be easily manipulated to your advantage, compared to lands that ETB tapped with the upside being that you Scry 1.
I'm going to start with the card that is most similar to the new lands: New Benalia. It is essentially one-half of these new lands. This land is probably the reason why the new lands are rares. Though really, this land would probably be fine as a common. The fact that it has Scry 1 is largely offset by the fact that it ETB tapped. I don't recall many decks that used this land at the time it was Standard-legal, because generally people preferred to use a basic Plains instead. I certainly rathered a Plains. Looking at a card you were going to get next turn anyways or taking a gamble that the next card was better than the card you looked at just wasn't worth waiting a turn to use the land for mana. It had very low power level for an Uncommon. I'm sure there were some decks that ran it, but it was essentially not worth playing over a basic land (or Horizon Canopy) most of the time. Plus, compare it to the much more recent Common land: Halimar Depths. Halimar Depths let you look at and rearrange the top 3 cards of your library. One can argue that Scry 1 is equivalent in power to what Halimar Depths does; however, let me submit to you the following scenarios:
The top 3 cards of your deck are Island, Nimbus Maze, then Wrath of God. You really need something to wipe the board. You Scry 1 and see an Island. You tuck it hoping that the next card is what you need; only to get Nimbus Maze. Now, if you looked at the top 3 and rearranged it, you'd definitely have gotten that boardsweeper.
The top 3 cards of your deck are Island, Nimbus Maze, then Wrath of God. You really need that additional white so you can cast the Wrath of God that's in your hand. You Scry 1 and tuck the Island, and thankfully the next card you draw is Nimbus Maze, and the card after is Wrath of God. Good, a follow-up sweeper in case your opponent builds up a crazy field again. This would be the same if you looked at and rearranged the top 3 cards of your deck.
The top 3 cards of your deck are again Island, Nimbus Maze, then Wrath of God. You really need a blue source so you can cast that Momentary Blink from your graveyard. You Scry 1 and to your relief, it's an Island. Alternately, you look at the top 3 cards and rearrange them. You obviously stack it so you get the Island first. At this point, you probably don't need the Nimbus Maze more than you could use the Wrath of God, so you stack the Wrath second and the Maze third. They both produce the same desired result but you got just a little more out of looking at your top 3.
Same 3 cards on the top of your deck in the same order. You are really land flooded. You scry 1 and tuck the Island. Then you draw Nimbus Maze (bummer), but then you get Wrath of God, awesome! You take a gamble from then on. Alternatively, you look at the top 3. You go ahead and place the Wrath first, but you'll be stuck drawing two more lands thereafter vs drawing only one land if you scryed. In this situation, it's very up in the air which ability is better, but overall you can safely say they were about the same.
Now play around with the order that these top 3 cards are in. Then plug them back into the previous scenarios then see how Scrying vs rearranging the top 3 would work. You can also try coming up with different scenarios in which 3 cards could be placed in.
As you can see in these situations (and in many others I'm sure) Halimar Depth's ability is usually the better ability to rely on. So I submit that New Benalia is a very low-powered uncommon, and by association the new Scry Lands are very low-powered rares (although their power level as uncommons are spot-on).
Next I'm going to talk about arguably one of the most powerful lands in this cycle: Dakmor Salvage. Dakmor Salvage was great during Standard at the time in the Countryside Crusher and Swans of Bryn Argoll decks. They typically abused it with Shard Volley, Seismic Assault, Crucible of Worlds, Countryside Crusher and Tarmogoyf. It's still used in Modern in Dredge and other decks. The combo-centered craziness surrounding it in addition to the fact that you can still use it as a land to tap for black is about as powerful as a land that also ETB tapped but can tap for one of two colors and allows you to Scry 1.
Next is the other land that is considered to be one of the most powerful lands in this cycle: Tolaria West. This is a card that is a best friend to control and combo decks, as well as being a staple in any Commander deck that can run it. At the time it was Standard-legal, it was used to search for Pacts (and still is in your Hive Mind decks and your Commander decks) or to search for a land you really needed (which is one of its big application in Commander decks). The fact that it doubles as a tutor is about as equivalent if not more powerful than a two-color land that ETB tapped and lets you do a one-time Scry 1.
Then we have Llanowar Reborn. A very underrated card in this age of counter-doubling, graft, evolve, persist, and proliferate. At the time this was Standard-legal it allowed for the creation of Persist-combo decks alongside Juniper Order Ranger with Kitchen Finks and Murderous Redcap along with sac engines like Nantuko Husk and Greater Gargadon. I personally don't know if there are any Modern decks that still use this card because it is largely outclassed by Oran-Reif, the Vastwood, but I happen to still see it in Commander decks. A one-time counter overall is not very powerful, but you can do it anytime at your leisure. Combine that with its synergy with a lot of mechanics and abilities these days and I'd say is approximate to the power level of these new Scry Lands (maybe a little less so).
Finally, we have Keldon Megaliths. It was used in RDW during the time it was Standard-legal, but other than that it was hardly ever used. It's really in the same boat as New Benalia in terms of power level in relation to the other cards in this cycle. Comparing it to the Scry Lands, tapping for two colors and Scry 1 outclasses the very conditional burn ability.
Urborg is a really powerful legendary land, even more so with the new changes to the Legend rule. This was the bread-and-butter of mono-black control decks along side Korlash, Heir to Blackblade and Corrupt during the time it was Standard legal. This is used in essentially every format ever. So good that the ability to search for this and Cabal Coffers were cited as one of the reasons Primeval Titan was banned in Commander. Even if you gave it some sort of drawback in exchange for not being a legendary land, it would still be ridiculously powerful compared to a large portion of other rare lands, especially ones that ETB tapped. It's so good it affected how good other lands were.
Flagstones is powerful land, but its power is not apparent right away. It is definitively more powerful than a basic Plains. Hell, when it goes to the graveyard you go get not just a basic Plains, but ANY Plains to replace it. This was a key factor in Modern Scapeshift decks which would stick Prismatic Omen, then Scapeshift to go get 5 lands: 3 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacles and two Flagstones, then utilize the old legend rule to sac them and get two Plains, adding up to a total of 21 damage. Oh yea, they benefit like crazy off the Legend rule, and they lessen the impact of Land destruction. Much more powerful than many other rare lands.
Pendelhaven is a classic land, iconic even. It came into play untapped and not only tapped for green, but gave you a repeatable effect that was easily abused in the right deck (Elves, Tokens, Goblins, etc.) Again, as a legendary land its difficult to compare it to other rare lands, but it's clear that these lands deserve rare status.
Dryad Arbor. A truly unique land that is played as a one-of in many Eternal-format decks, especially those that run Green Sun's Zenith. It allowed your land tutors to work overtime to fetch emergency blockers and allowed your creature tutors to work overtime to fetch a land. Granted, it was extremely fragile as a land you could kill with creature removal, also by the fact you couldn't tap it for mana the turn it ETB, but the sheer level of utility that the land offered you, combined with the fact it has a basic land type really makes it a powerful uncommon. I'd even put it on par with the new Scrylands.
Terramorphic Expanse. Commonly played in many decks, even those that are mono-color. It's a cheap way to tutor for that basic land that produces the color you need. It thins out your deck. It was an all-star in many decks, including the Landfall Boros Bushwhacker decks. It's a cheap way to get those lands in your graveyard to power up your Tarmogoyfs. You can chaingun it with Crucible of Worlds. Overall a solid card. The new Scry lands are definitely more powerful than this land, but not so much so that it warrants a degree of separation of two levels of rarity. Like Terramorphic, the new Scry lands, won't net you mana until the turn after you play it. Unlike Terramorphic it gives you access to two colors. Being able to see and manipulate your next card is also comparable to thinning out your deck by one card, though granted that the effects of Scry 1 on your game are immediately apparent.
Coldsnap:
Coldsnap offered us the Snow Duals. These lands are approximate to the 8th Edition uncommon lands. The only exception is that it has the Snow supertype. In block this is a fair trade-off between cards that interact to benefit from running these lands and cards that hurt you because you run these lands. Overall, you receive much more benefit off of running these over the 8th Edition uncommons. Cards like Into the North, Skred, Mouth of Ronom, and Scrying Sheets made these lands much more powerful than their non-snow counterparts. Heck, I seen Commander decks and decks during Time Spiral Standard run these just because they ran Skred or could fetch it with Into the North, making it a better alternative to their non-snow counterparts. The Snow interaction is a fair trade-off for Scry 1, in spite of Scry 1 perhaps being slightly more powerful.
10th Edition:
In this core set, we have two cycles of lands: the Pain Lands and the mono-color Man Lands.
The pain lands are an iconic cycle of lands for god knows how long until the inception of the new Core Set (or "Check") lands. They ETB untapped and could tap for 1, which overall doesn't interrupt your mana curve. On top of that, they can tap for colors the turn they ETB (and every turn thereafter for that matter) by taking 1 damage. Being able to tap for one of two colors the turn it ETB is much better than having to wait a turn in order to Scry 1 one time (in most instances). Even the drawback of the pain lands could be mitigated by just tapping these lands for colorless instead. Hell, by the time the damage matters to a large degree (late game, when you are low on life) chances are you have some other land or combination of lands to make up the colors you need, so you didn't feel bad about having to tap it for colorless mana.
The other cycle of lands in this set were the iconic mono-color man-lands: Faerie Conlcave, Forbidding Watchtower, Ghitu Encampment, Spawning Pool, and Treetop Village. When these were Standard legal, these were run in almost any deck. A land that taps for a color and turns into a blocker or a beater when you need it while also not taking up essential slots needed for spells is amazing regardless of rarity. In the case of this cycle, many players were willing to give up speed for utility. Even then, smart players knew when to drop these lands to minimize the disruption in their curve by having to wait for them to untap. The value of the utility in these lands were equivalent (often greater) than the 8th edition uncommon land cycle. Forbidding Watchtower is definitely considered to be better than New Benalia. So logically, the power level of these lands are approximate to the power level of the new Scry lands.
These rare lands were largely like the 8th Edition lands in that they tapped for two colors (three in the case of Murmuring Bosk, any color in the case of Primal Beyond and one color for Rustic Clachan) and ETB tapped. Unlike those lands, if you revealed a card of the relevant creature type from your hand, that land ETB untapped. These lands are also low power rare duals outside their respective tribal decks compared to other duals. Notable exceptions, though, include putting these lands in a deck with a hefty number of Changelings, and Murmuring Bosk (since is has a basic land type and taps for 3 colors). Being very much tied to a specific theme, these lands effectively behave worse than the Scry lands unless using them in a tribal deck or in decks have at least a handful of tribal cards or Changelings. Granted that in tribal decks, these cards are amazing and far outclass the Scrylands since they'll be ETB untapped majority of the time. Hell, I'm pretty sure Eternal format Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk love running their respective tribal lands. Rustic Clachan is just a little more powerful than Llanowar Reborn due to its tribal interaction, so its power level compared to the Scry lands is approximate. Primal Beyond is essentially useless outside of an Elemental deck, so it's overall power is approximate to Rustic Clachan and the scry lands by association. The clear exception to everything mentioned is Murmuring Bosk. Murmuring Bosk is used in Commander and Eternal formats (regardless of whether or not that deck runs any Treefolk or Changelings) solely because it is a Forest and can tap for 3 colors, making it an amazing target for Fetch lands. Murmuring Bosk is powerful enough to be comparable to "Shock" lands, so its very unfair to compare it to the Scry lands or even the other Tribal lands.
The Hideaway Lands:
They're rare lands that ETBT, but you get to look at your top 4 cards when you play them. Then, you get to pick one of those cards to exile and be casted later for free once a certain condition has been met. Like the Uncommon cycle in Future Sight, some of the lands in this cycle are considered to be more powerful than the others due to the ease in which their conditions can be reached; however, most of them had their day in the limelight in certain decks (poor Howltooth Hollow). Unlike the Scry lands, these lands only can be utilized for one color of mana; however, the utility of Scry 1 is definitely outclassed by the Hideaway mechanic, since Hideaway lets you dig through your deck for a card that is useful to you so you can cast it for free later. This overall makes the Hideaway lands more useful in the expanse of a game than the Scry lands. It should be noted that the most powerful lands in this cycle are Windbrisk Heights and Mosswort Bridge, due to the relative ease in which their conditions can be satisfied. Windbrisk Heights is devastating in Eternal formats as well as during Lorwyn Standard in token decks. Mosswort Bridge saw play in any green-based midrange deck that could afford to have it in Standard, and it is used in Commander frequently. Spinerock Knoll had its day in Dragonstorm decks during Time Spiral-Lorwyn Standard, and Shelldock Isle saw play in Sanity Grinding decks. The only one left out is Howltooth Hollow. It's Hideaway conditions are terribly difficult to meet, so I don't recall any deck that ran them at the time. So the Scry lands are arguably on-par or better than Howltooth Hollow.
Vivid Lands:
Man, these lands were ridiculous. Extremely high-power uncommons. These may have been a mistake to print on the part of Wizards, and these very well could have been rares. These singlehandedly allowed 5-color control decks to be ran extremely efficiently, effectively, and with a high degree of power when they were Standard legal. These make Tendo Ice Bridge look like trash. Not having to worry about your mana base ever far exceeds the one-time Scry 1 of the Scry lands. Hell, these may be on par with Pain Lands.
Last we have Shimmering Grotto. Very simple land idea reminiscent of Mirrodin's Core and the Storage Lands. Overall didn't net you any mana, but allowed for easier color-fixing in decks that needed it. Good reason to be a common. Definitely a lot weaker than the common Guildgates, the uncommon Tri-color Lands, and the new rare Scry Lands.
These lands were/are extremely powerful lands. They are probably the most powerful cycle of lands next to lands that have two basic land types. They are used in every format they can be used in because not only do they give you access to one or both colors, but they have the added utility of being able to turn mana of one color into two mana of a completely different color. This not only made splashing easier, but allowed players to splash cards with more intense mana requirements because of this added utility. When these lands were Standard legal, reanimator decks at the time often ran Graven Cairns even though the only red card in the deck was Bogardan Hellkite. This was because not only did the land work like the rest of the deck's mana base (by being able to tap for black mana), but it allowed them to take mana from the decks majority black-centered mana base and filter it into two red mana (like some kind of super-amazing Shimmering Grotto), which was exactly the amount they needed to be able to hard cast the Hellkite if it needed to be. The need to pack additional lands that tapped for red mana in order to do this was minimized because Cairns was able to turn one of the existing non-red lands into a de facto red-producing land. Examples like this are what allow filter lands to show off their full potential as a powerful and reliable mana source.
For all the power these lands have, the Magic Core Set lands are actually not that far behind them in terms of their reliability and power as two-color lands. I'll elaborate when I go over these lands later, but keep that in mind when you judge lands in the future. Now when compared to the Scry lands, there a couple of things to look at: filter lands ETB untapped, can tap for colored mana starting that same turn, and are amazing at providing you with access to your colors. The problem is that they aren't that great if they are the only lands you have on the battlefield. They can still be tapped for 1 though, so they aren't completely useless. The scry lands ETBT, and don't give you the same mana access that the filter lands provide, whether or not this is a good exchange for the additional one-time scry is up to you to decide.
Shadowmoor Uncommons:
These are a cycle of uncommon lands that ETBT, have a basic land type, and an activated ability that can only be activated if you control at least two permanents of the color it produces. Like the Hideaway lands and the Time Spiral uncommon lands, some of the lands in this cycle are considered to be better than the other in the same cycle. Leechridden Swamp is considered to be the most powerful land in this cycle. It was almost every deck that ran black when it was Standard legal and it's still used in Commander. In Standard, Sapseep Forest was probably the next strongest land in the cycle. In Commander, Mistveil Plains is an incredible tool to allow you to recycle your cards--a big asset in the format. Madblind Mountain and Moonring Island are undoubtedly the weakest cards of the cycle
.
I'll get back to evaluating cards past this point in a later post (and link back to this post), as I have other responsibilities that require my attention. I'll leave this with some words to think on though.
In the article introducing the scrylands on Magic's official site, they stated that in order to make Heroic a more relevant ability and to make sure you can have creatures to play your Auras on, Scry was a necessary mechanic to bring back, ultimately to ensure the health of a Limited setting. If they really needed scry around in Theros Limited in order to make it a more healthy format, why not print these lands as Uncommons? It would only make since to make the cards that ensure the health of this Limited environment more accessible to Limited players.
EDIT: I want to mention too that I am not saying these lands are terrible. I'm attempting to argue that it really didn't make any sense to print them as rares. Though ultimately it happened. We players will live with it and move on, and these lands will be used.
EDIT 2: Updated post to add Coldsnap and 10th Edition cards mentioned in a follow-up post
I'm surprised at the amount of vitriol thrown at these lands.
Yes, the rarity is a bit odd, but these will easily see play and I won't complain one bit when I start top decking lands, and don't get flooded out because I'm scrying away the extras. These will be a big deal for a large amount of decks.
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1. The Guildgates are a bit of an anomoly. Only twice ever have a cycle of honest to goodness dual lands been printed at common, the Guildgates and the Ravnica Boucelands. Common duals is a rare event saved for gold heavy blocks and shouldn't be used as a basis of comparison outside those blocks.
2. A better comparison is the Refuges. If you honestly believe that Scry 1 for free is on par with or worse than gaining 1 life, I don't know what to tell you.
3. Going by my first two points, this should not be looked at as an existing common cycle with some worthless mechanic tacked on and bumped up two rarities. This is an existing uncommon card given the ability to create an additional color of mana and bumped up on rarity.
Bane's Reading Suggestions David Eddings: The Belgariad, Mallorean, Elenium and Tamuli Series. The Redemption of Althalus Jim Butcher: The Codex Alera Series
The lands will see play. They should have been uncommon. Com-parables across older and recent years of MTG make that obvious. The man-lands are probably the closest tap-land equivalent, an ongoing or significant impact to the game is needed for a rare that comes into play tapped. A one time scry 1 after you've already played the land isn't sufficient for rare. Especially in a block full of scry which many times will negate this upside and make the card a guildgate.
This combined with the check lands leaving core will make for a much slower standard, especially when RtR rotates out.
Edit: The comparable at uncommon ex New Benalia are good justification for a "higher" rarity. I think issue is a bump within uncommon as part of power-creep versus a bump to rarity is up for debate.
You may not think the lands will be very good, but they are perfectly reasonable.
At uncommon...
Look- precedents are important, but it seems like rarities are pretty flexible as time goes on. The block, set mechanics, or flavor may pull a rarity in one direction or another. The cards are great uncommons and would matter in limited with scry triggers if they were uncommons. You could build THE scry deck, and these would help a bunch. Not at rare- not at all. For some reason you seem to think that the zendikar gain life lands are what make these rares when it really should be proving why these should be uncommons. Tapped duel lands have been getting better and better AT uncommon, and having the scry lands at uncommon would have followed this trajectory. These at rare is just wrong, and it is plain for casual players and competitive players all to see. Hell, new players apparently get bummed when they open lands in the rare spot, and now that will happen as well as competitive players getting pissed when they have a clear-cut uncommon in the rare slot...
I wish I had ten hands to I could give this RARE cycle ten thumbs down.
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Feel free to tell me yours!
Look- precedents are important, but it seems like rarities are pretty flexible as time goes on. The block, set mechanics, or flavor may pull a rarity in one direction or another. The cards are great uncommons and would matter in limited with scry triggers if they were uncommons. You could build THE scry deck, and these would help a bunch. Not at rare- not at all. For some reason you seem to think that the zendikar gain life lands are what make these rares when it really should be proving why these should be uncommons. Tapped duel lands have been getting better and better AT uncommon, and having the scry lands at uncommon would have followed this trajectory. These at rare is just wrong, and it is plain for casual players and competitive players all to see. Hell, new players apparently get bummed when they open lands in the rare spot, and now that will happen as well as competitive players getting pissed when they have a clear-cut uncommon in the rare slot...
I wish I had ten hands to I could give this RARE cycle ten thumbs down.
Refuges are not the reason they could be seen as reasonable at Rare. New Benalia is the reason. These cards are stronger than the Refuges but weaker than most rare lands. Maro himself said they in between uncommon and rare, they are on the cusp. Wizards erred on the side of caution and made them rare to limit the "dig for the bomb" aspect in limited. I am just sick of everyone spewing hate at them as if its the biggest outrage ever and shoving guildgates in our face as if they are a long running established evergreen thing and not an unusual occurrence that only happened because of nature of the block they were in.
Bane's Reading Suggestions David Eddings: The Belgariad, Mallorean, Elenium and Tamuli Series. The Redemption of Althalus Jim Butcher: The Codex Alera Series
While I don't doubt these lands will be better than many here expect,
I'm also relatively certain this decision will come to be regarded as a mistake.
The backlash present in this thread is a pretty clear indicator that some other design,
or these at Uncommon was the better decision,
and they will likely lose at least a little money because of it.
I doubt I'm the only one less excited about Theros now than I was yesterday.
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1. The Guildgates are a bit of an anomoly. Only twice ever have a cycle of honest to goodness dual lands been printed at common, the Guildgates and the Ravnica Boucelands. Common duals is a rare event saved for gold heavy blocks and shouldn't be used as a basis of comparison outside those blocks.
2. A better comparison is the Refuges. If you honestly believe that Scry 1 for free is on par with or worse than gaining 1 life, I don't know what to tell you.
3. Going by my first two points, this should not be looked at as an existing common cycle with some worthless mechanic tacked on and bumped up two rarities. This is an existing uncommon card given the ability to create an additional color of mana and bumped up on rarity.
You may not think the lands will be very good, but they are perfectly reasonable.
no one is arguing that the lands are good or bad. they are arguing that the rarity is higher than it should be. a better comparison is as arcane sanctum is to the refuge's which is an uncommon as all other dual cipt lands have been lately. yes it is better than the refuge's but honestly, it is in many cases weaker than the tri/vivid lands. should the ability to make an additional color of mana be worth less than being able to scry once?
no one is arguing that the lands are good or bad. they are arguing that the rarity is higher than it should be. a better comparison is as arcane sanctum is to the refuge's which is an uncommon as all other dual cipt lands have been lately. yes it is better than the refuge's but honestly, it is in many cases weaker than the tri/vivid lands. should the ability to make an additional color of mana be worth less than being able to scry once?
Arcane Sanctum existed in a multi-color block, and much like the Guildgates required mana fixing at lower rarities.
I would like to add, besides being some of the worst duals ever, they are incredibly boring.
I would like to have at least seen some flavor or potential upside for how they are hard tapped. I mean man lands have sort of shown that you want some value from tapped lands, at least add on some mana ability to give some flavor.
I mean (XCC) - until end of turn this land counts as one devotion to C and C, would have been neat. (c = whatever color the dual is)
1. They are rare. I was going to buy a Theros Booster Box, but these have made me not want to do that. They wouldn't have destroyed limited at uncommon, and putting them at rare makes is not putting it just a step above New Benalia and Kazandu Refuge, it is putting it a step above Arcane Sanctum as well. I'd say that access to a third color of mana is worth more than scry one.
2. I am primarily a Modern player. I don't play standard or limited. I was expecting one of the 4 uncompleted land cycles from future sight to be completed. These are unplayable in Modern, and I really needed a Horizon Canopy and Grove of the Burnwillows to be in UB, BG, and UG colors.
3. This just feels like lazy design. They take an Elfhame Palace and stick scry 1 on it, just like they've been doing to everything else in the set. There are many innovative designs that I've seen people come up with on this forum since these were shown that would have been better such as
Theros Dual Land
Land (Uncommon)
Add or to your mana pool.
Theros Dual Land enters the battlefeld tapped unless if you control an enchantment.
Theros Dual Land
Land-Plains Island (Rare)
Add or to your mana pool.
Theros Dual Land enters the battlefield tapped.
Theros Dual Land
Land (Rare)
Add or to your mana pool.
Theros Dual Land enters the battlefield tapped.
Whenever you count the amount of blue or white mana symbols in permanents you control for devotion, add 1 to that amount.
These would promoted the block's themes better and the last two would have been more powerful than it without tearing up standard or limited. The last one would also have more flavor as a temple than the scry lands. It just seems like there were a lot of things that could have made this cycle better but they were lazy and just stuck scry on everything.
I would like to add, besides being some of the worst duals ever, they are incredibly boring.
I would like to have at least seen some flavor or potential upside for how they are hard tapped. I mean man lands have sort of shown that you want some value from tapped lands, at least add on some mana ability to give some flavor.
I mean (XCC) - until end of turn this land counts as one devotion to C and C, would have been neat. (c = whatever color the dual is)
The CIPT tapped represents the time you spent worshipping at at the temple. For that time you gain access to the colors worshipped there and the insight/visions that scry represents.
The idea that people actually think these are some of the worst duals ever is melting my brain.
Bane's Reading Suggestions David Eddings: The Belgariad, Mallorean, Elenium and Tamuli Series. The Redemption of Althalus Jim Butcher: The Codex Alera Series
On the other hand, If I was running R/G and Temple of Abandon was a Mountain/Forest, Peak Eruption would be able to hit every mana fixing land in my deck. I'm sure that was part of the decision not to add the sub-types.
Besides, we may even get the equivalent of Farseek for the Temples, something like a pilgrimage.
I for one can tell you that the only boosters of this set I will open will be at the prereleases of each set in this block. I was seriously considering buying a case of this set. You can completely forget that now.
I'll buy/trade for a playset of a few rares I like once prices calm down and I'm done.
On the other hand, If I was running R/G and Temple of Abandon was a Mountain/Forest, Peak Eruption would be able to hit every mana fixing land in my deck. I'm sure that was part of the decision not to add the sub-types.
Besides, we may even get the equivalent of Farseek for the Temples, something like a pilgrimage.
No, we won't they don't have subtypes so they can't make a tutor specifically for them.
I for one can tell you that the only boosters of this set I will open will be at the prereleases of each set in this block. I was seriously considering buying a case of this set. You can completely forget that now.
I'll buy/trade for a playset of a few rares I like once prices calm down and I'm done.
I'd say we have a decent precedent of Duals that are both useful and well-designed
(And more importantly, well-received).
These have ratcheted that level down quite a bit.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Which is more powerful, New Benalia or Coastal Tower? I'd actually call it about even, because it entirely depends on the deck. If that's an acceptable judgment, then wouldn't Temple of Silence be just as appropriate at uncommon as Arcane Sanctum is?
Another way to look at it is like this: Temple of Silence is pretty much just a rough compromise between Arcane Sanctum and New Benalia, both uncommons. (After this "compromise," each produces two different colors of mana, and each has Scry 0.5. That's only short half-a-scry per card, which is negligible.) Arcane Sanctum is a strong uncommon (let's say 5 out of 5); New Benalia seems middling (let's say 3 out of 5). This suggests that if Temple of Silence were an uncommon, it would still rank only slightly higher than a 4 out of 5 in terms of power.
On a slightly different note, I really wish these were uncommon because non-rare, enemy-colored duals are practically nonexistent (save for the Ravnica gates and bouncelands). Of course, it doesn't matter how many reasons I give for why these should be uncommon, because WotC is not going to change them.
Which is more powerful, New Benalia or Coastal Tower? I'd actually call it about even, because it entirely depends on the deck. If that's an acceptable judgment, then wouldn't Temple of Silence be just as appropriate at uncommon as Arcane Sanctum is?
Another way to look at it is like this: Temple of Silence is pretty much just a rough compromise between Arcane Sanctum and New Benalia, both uncommons. (After this "compromise," each produces two different colors of mana, and each has Scry 0.5. That's only short half-a-scry per card, which is negligible.) Arcane Sanctum is a strong uncommon (let's say 5 out of 5); New Benalia seems middling (let's say 3 out of 5). This suggests that if Temple of Silence were an uncommon, it would still rank only slightly higher than a 4 out of 5 in terms of power.
On a slightly different note, I really wish these were uncommon because non-rare, enemy-colored duals are practically nonexistent (save for the Ravnica gates and bouncelands). Of course, it doesn't matter how many reasons I give for why these should be uncommon, because WotC is not going to change them.
You have to look at the sets as well. Arcane Sanctum came out in a set of 249 cards, where 36/57 of the gold cards were 3-color, and only produced mana. Temple of Silence is in a set that may have less gold cards, and likely none of them will be 3 colors. Also ETBT, it also has scry 1 on ETB. From the perspective of which card is better for Modern, yes it would be Arcane Sanctum. Comparing how the cards do within their respective sets, Temple of Silence is more powerful, even if the difference is slight.
Edit: I am not saying that the new duals are amazing, only that I understand some of the reasoning behind why they were printed as they are.
Furthermore, I don't appreciate being labeled as "spoiled"
just for expecting what has become the status quo.
It's not our fault things have been so good for so long (since Shadowmoor if not since Ravnica 1.0)-
in this case, the "parents" are to blame for suddenly and drastically shifting standards.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
For a Dual Land, the idea of adding Scry as an EtB ability is interesting. Having them EtB tapped is fine, as well. Having them take up a Rare slot is questionable at best. Had the effect been Scry 2, I think the Rarity would be more acceptable.
Eternal formats will ignore these. Enemy colored EDH decks will be glad for the additional mana fixer. Modern will scoff. These won't make much of an appearance in Standard until M14/"Huey," when players no longer have access to the Shocklands. Though I'm still hoping WotC has the decency to print the Inn Checklands in M14 to increase the availability.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
May your games be chaotic and your decks be Rogue.
Continued from this post comparing the new scry lands to color/fetch lands printed since the Time Spiral superblock...
Coldsnap:
Coldsnap offered us the Snow Duals. These lands are approximate to the 8th Edition uncommon lands. The only exception is that it has the Snow supertype. In block this is a fair trade-off between cards that interact to benefit from running these lands and cards that hurt you because you run these lands. Overall, you receive much more benefit off of running these over the 8th Edition uncommons. Cards like Into the North, Skred, Mouth of Ronom, and Scrying Sheets made these lands much more powerful than their non-snow counterparts. Heck, I seen Commander decks and decks during Time Spiral Standard run these just because they ran Skred or could fetch it with Into the North, making it a better alternative to their non-snow counterparts. The Snow interaction is a fair trade-off for Scry 1, in spite of Scry 1 perhaps being slightly more powerful.
10th Edition:
In this core set, we have two cycles of lands: the Pain Lands and the mono-color Man Lands.
The pain lands are an iconic cycle of lands for god knows how long until the inception of the new Core Set (or "Check") lands. They ETB untapped and could tap for 1, which overall doesn't interrupt your mana curve. On top of that, they can tap for colors the turn they ETB (and every turn thereafter for that matter) by taking 1 damage. Being able to tap for one of two colors the turn it ETB is much better than having to wait a turn in order to Scry 1 one time (in most instances). Even the drawback of the pain lands could be mitigated by just tapping these lands for colorless instead. Hell, by the time the damage matters to a large degree (late game, when you are low on life) chances are you have some other land or combination of lands to make up the colors you need, so you didn't feel bad about having to tap it for colorless mana.
The other cycle of lands in this set were the iconic mono-color man-lands: Faerie Conlcave, Forbidding Watchtower, Ghitu Encampment, Spawning Pool, and Treetop Village. When these were Standard legal, these were run in almost any deck. A land that taps for a color and turns into a blocker or a beater when you need it while also not taking up essential slots needed for spells is amazing regardless of rarity. In the case of this cycle, many players were willing to give up speed for utility. Even then, smart players knew when to drop these lands to minimize the disruption in their curve by having to wait for them to untap. The value of the utility in these lands were equivalent (often greater) than the 8th edition uncommon land cycle. Forbidding Watchtower is definitely considered to be better than New Benalia. So logically, the power level of these lands are approximate to the power level of the new Scry lands.
I'll continue expanding on this later, but for right now I'll make an addendum to my original post as well.
Like it or not, these lands will see play. Whether it be next year when Huey comes in, or now in control/midrange decks, these scry lands offer something that the others can't: better card selection.
Sure, they probably shouldn't have warranted rare slots, but don't knock it till you've tried it. Everyone's judging them in a vacuum, with practically no thought to block interaction. I'd be surprised if there are no cards that interact favorably with scry
Fair enough, I misread your post. No-one argues that 1 life is anything but worse than Scry 1. However, the point remains that the Refuge cycle is in fact an example of CIPT-plus lands that you're talking about.
From a discussion about skipping town and fleeing from the law:
While trying to ambush a creature who favored grabbing and strangling PCs:
This means we're expected to consider a free, one-time Scry 1 on par with the ability to play a card for 2 mana (and ignore timing restrictions). I shouldn't even need to explain the latter ability is worlds ahead of Scry 1. (And this goes double for Manlands.)
So the enduring problem is the argument that adding Scry 1 turns an unmitigated Uncommon into a Rare. Literally no other card (or cards) ever needed this argument to justify its rarity. And Wizards themselves admits that it's potentially (read: likely) Uncommon design. Their rarity is thus arbitrary and artificial. This is why it bothers me (and many others).
Make no mistake that I like this set. I've actually chosen to reserve judgment on most of the cards (especially the two playable 'walkers). But but design (and Rarity) deserves to be denounced.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
Time Spiral Block:
The Storage Lands:
Next, we have the Rare cycle of Future Sight lands: Graven Cairns, Nimbus Maze, Horizon Canopy, River of Tears, and Grove of the Burnwillows. I'll discuss Graven Cairns when I go over Filter Lands later during the Shadowmoor Block section. Keep in mind that both these lands and the Scry lands are rares.
Next is Horizon Canopy. It ETB untapped an gives you unrestricted access to two colors with the downside that you lose 1 life each time without being able to circumvent it by tapping it for 1 instead like with the Pain Lands. As an additional upside to these drawbacks, you also have the option to sacrifice it to draw a card. This was really useful back in Time Spiral Standard because if you were behind and needed to get those answers or if you were on top and just wanted to push a little harder, you could get that extra resource out of it. Comparing it to the Scry lands, Scry 1 once when it ETB is definitely a lot less harsh than drawing a card at the expense of sacrificing that land; however; being able to draw that card at any time, particularly when you really need that card advantage in a match vs having a one shot Scry effect that may not really have a consequence on the current game state makes the draw effect much more potent. Also losing 1 life as a consequence of being able to access its colors the turn it ETB is hardly a drawback compared to the upside, especially since late in the game (when losing that 1 life matters drastically more), you can just instead sacrifice it to draw a card (which hopefully gives you that extra push to turn the game around or win the game).
Then we have River of Tears. This is an odd land. It ETB untapped and allows you to tap for colored mana the turn it ETB; however, depending on whether you played a land this turn determines the color you get out of the land. Back during Time Spiral Standard this was largely inconsequential, since if you wanted blue you could tap it before you played your land, and if you wanted black you could tap it after. In the decks that ran it (like Blink decks), it was essentially an awesome land that ETB untapped and tapped for either mana with the restriction that it only tapped for black the turn you play it. This makes it very much the better card when compared to lands that ETB tapped, even with a minor upside.
Finally, we have Grove of the Burnwillows. God, this land is amazing in any aggro deck. Your opponents gained 1 life? Doesn't really matter when it allows you unrestricted access to mana to play your awesome burn spells and creatures. And if you don't want to let your opponents to gain life, you can just tap it for colorless mana! Crazy. During Time Spiral Standard, this land was Kavu Predator's best friend, and in Extended and Modern allowed for crazy decks that maximized the benefit of the downside with cards like Punishing Fire; allowing players to keep Faerie decks in check. A land that gives you unrestricted access to two colors of mana starting the turn you play it with a downside that can be easily manipulated to your advantage, compared to lands that ETB tapped with the upside being that you Scry 1.
Then we have the Uncommon cycle of Future Sight lands: Dakmor Salvage, Keldon Megaliths, Llanowar Reborn, New Benalia, and Tolaria West. Some of the lands in this cycle are generally thought to be better than other lands in this same cycle.
Next I'm going to talk about arguably one of the most powerful lands in this cycle: Dakmor Salvage. Dakmor Salvage was great during Standard at the time in the Countryside Crusher and Swans of Bryn Argoll decks. They typically abused it with Shard Volley, Seismic Assault, Crucible of Worlds, Countryside Crusher and Tarmogoyf. It's still used in Modern in Dredge and other decks. The combo-centered craziness surrounding it in addition to the fact that you can still use it as a land to tap for black is about as powerful as a land that also ETB tapped but can tap for one of two colors and allows you to Scry 1.
Next is the other land that is considered to be one of the most powerful lands in this cycle: Tolaria West. This is a card that is a best friend to control and combo decks, as well as being a staple in any Commander deck that can run it. At the time it was Standard-legal, it was used to search for Pacts (and still is in your Hive Mind decks and your Commander decks) or to search for a land you really needed (which is one of its big application in Commander decks). The fact that it doubles as a tutor is about as equivalent if not more powerful than a two-color land that ETB tapped and lets you do a one-time Scry 1.
Then we have Llanowar Reborn. A very underrated card in this age of counter-doubling, graft, evolve, persist, and proliferate. At the time this was Standard-legal it allowed for the creation of Persist-combo decks alongside Juniper Order Ranger with Kitchen Finks and Murderous Redcap along with sac engines like Nantuko Husk and Greater Gargadon. I personally don't know if there are any Modern decks that still use this card because it is largely outclassed by Oran-Reif, the Vastwood, but I happen to still see it in Commander decks. A one-time counter overall is not very powerful, but you can do it anytime at your leisure. Combine that with its synergy with a lot of mechanics and abilities these days and I'd say is approximate to the power level of these new Scry Lands (maybe a little less so).
Finally, we have Keldon Megaliths. It was used in RDW during the time it was Standard-legal, but other than that it was hardly ever used. It's really in the same boat as New Benalia in terms of power level in relation to the other cards in this cycle. Comparing it to the Scry Lands, tapping for two colors and Scry 1 outclasses the very conditional burn ability.
Now let's discuss the non-cycle lands in this block: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, Flagstones of Trokair, Pendelhaven, Dryad Arbor, and Terramorphic Expanse.
Flagstones is powerful land, but its power is not apparent right away. It is definitively more powerful than a basic Plains. Hell, when it goes to the graveyard you go get not just a basic Plains, but ANY Plains to replace it. This was a key factor in Modern Scapeshift decks which would stick Prismatic Omen, then Scapeshift to go get 5 lands: 3 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacles and two Flagstones, then utilize the old legend rule to sac them and get two Plains, adding up to a total of 21 damage. Oh yea, they benefit like crazy off the Legend rule, and they lessen the impact of Land destruction. Much more powerful than many other rare lands.
Pendelhaven is a classic land, iconic even. It came into play untapped and not only tapped for green, but gave you a repeatable effect that was easily abused in the right deck (Elves, Tokens, Goblins, etc.) Again, as a legendary land its difficult to compare it to other rare lands, but it's clear that these lands deserve rare status.
Dryad Arbor. A truly unique land that is played as a one-of in many Eternal-format decks, especially those that run Green Sun's Zenith. It allowed your land tutors to work overtime to fetch emergency blockers and allowed your creature tutors to work overtime to fetch a land. Granted, it was extremely fragile as a land you could kill with creature removal, also by the fact you couldn't tap it for mana the turn it ETB, but the sheer level of utility that the land offered you, combined with the fact it has a basic land type really makes it a powerful uncommon. I'd even put it on par with the new Scrylands.
Terramorphic Expanse. Commonly played in many decks, even those that are mono-color. It's a cheap way to tutor for that basic land that produces the color you need. It thins out your deck. It was an all-star in many decks, including the Landfall Boros Bushwhacker decks. It's a cheap way to get those lands in your graveyard to power up your Tarmogoyfs. You can chaingun it with Crucible of Worlds. Overall a solid card. The new Scry lands are definitely more powerful than this land, but not so much so that it warrants a degree of separation of two levels of rarity. Like Terramorphic, the new Scry lands, won't net you mana until the turn after you play it. Unlike Terramorphic it gives you access to two colors. Being able to see and manipulate your next card is also comparable to thinning out your deck by one card, though granted that the effects of Scry 1 on your game are immediately apparent.
Coldsnap:
10th Edition:
The pain lands are an iconic cycle of lands for god knows how long until the inception of the new Core Set (or "Check") lands. They ETB untapped and could tap for 1, which overall doesn't interrupt your mana curve. On top of that, they can tap for colors the turn they ETB (and every turn thereafter for that matter) by taking 1 damage. Being able to tap for one of two colors the turn it ETB is much better than having to wait a turn in order to Scry 1 one time (in most instances). Even the drawback of the pain lands could be mitigated by just tapping these lands for colorless instead. Hell, by the time the damage matters to a large degree (late game, when you are low on life) chances are you have some other land or combination of lands to make up the colors you need, so you didn't feel bad about having to tap it for colorless mana.
The other cycle of lands in this set were the iconic mono-color man-lands: Faerie Conlcave, Forbidding Watchtower, Ghitu Encampment, Spawning Pool, and Treetop Village. When these were Standard legal, these were run in almost any deck. A land that taps for a color and turns into a blocker or a beater when you need it while also not taking up essential slots needed for spells is amazing regardless of rarity. In the case of this cycle, many players were willing to give up speed for utility. Even then, smart players knew when to drop these lands to minimize the disruption in their curve by having to wait for them to untap. The value of the utility in these lands were equivalent (often greater) than the 8th edition uncommon land cycle. Forbidding Watchtower is definitely considered to be better than New Benalia. So logically, the power level of these lands are approximate to the power level of the new Scry lands.
Lorwyn Block:
The Tribal Lands:
The Hideaway Lands:
Vivid Lands:
Last we have Shimmering Grotto. Very simple land idea reminiscent of Mirrodin's Core and the Storage Lands. Overall didn't net you any mana, but allowed for easier color-fixing in decks that needed it. Good reason to be a common. Definitely a lot weaker than the common Guildgates, the uncommon Tri-color Lands, and the new rare Scry Lands.
Shadowmoor Block:
Filter Lands:
For all the power these lands have, the Magic Core Set lands are actually not that far behind them in terms of their reliability and power as two-color lands. I'll elaborate when I go over these lands later, but keep that in mind when you judge lands in the future. Now when compared to the Scry lands, there a couple of things to look at: filter lands ETB untapped, can tap for colored mana starting that same turn, and are amazing at providing you with access to your colors. The problem is that they aren't that great if they are the only lands you have on the battlefield. They can still be tapped for 1 though, so they aren't completely useless. The scry lands ETBT, and don't give you the same mana access that the filter lands provide, whether or not this is a good exchange for the additional one-time scry is up to you to decide.
Shadowmoor Uncommons:
I'll get back to evaluating cards past this point in a later post (and link back to this post), as I have other responsibilities that require my attention. I'll leave this with some words to think on though.
In the article introducing the scrylands on Magic's official site, they stated that in order to make Heroic a more relevant ability and to make sure you can have creatures to play your Auras on, Scry was a necessary mechanic to bring back, ultimately to ensure the health of a Limited setting. If they really needed scry around in Theros Limited in order to make it a more healthy format, why not print these lands as Uncommons? It would only make since to make the cards that ensure the health of this Limited environment more accessible to Limited players.
EDIT: I want to mention too that I am not saying these lands are terrible. I'm attempting to argue that it really didn't make any sense to print them as rares. Though ultimately it happened. We players will live with it and move on, and these lands will be used.
EDIT 2: Updated post to add Coldsnap and 10th Edition cards mentioned in a follow-up post
Yes, the rarity is a bit odd, but these will easily see play and I won't complain one bit when I start top decking lands, and don't get flooded out because I'm scrying away the extras. These will be a big deal for a large amount of decks.
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
1. The Guildgates are a bit of an anomoly. Only twice ever have a cycle of honest to goodness dual lands been printed at common, the Guildgates and the Ravnica Boucelands. Common duals is a rare event saved for gold heavy blocks and shouldn't be used as a basis of comparison outside those blocks.
2. A better comparison is the Refuges. If you honestly believe that Scry 1 for free is on par with or worse than gaining 1 life, I don't know what to tell you.
3. Going by my first two points, this should not be looked at as an existing common cycle with some worthless mechanic tacked on and bumped up two rarities. This is an existing uncommon card given the ability to create an additional color of mana and bumped up on rarity.
Temple of Triumph is to New Benalia as Arcane Sanctum is to Azorius Guildgate.
You may not think the lands will be very good, but they are perfectly reasonable.
Under Original Management!
Bane's Reading Suggestions
David Eddings: The Belgariad, Mallorean, Elenium and Tamuli Series. The Redemption of Althalus
Jim Butcher: The Codex Alera Series
This combined with the check lands leaving core will make for a much slower standard, especially when RtR rotates out.
Edit: The comparable at uncommon ex New Benalia are good justification for a "higher" rarity. I think issue is a bump within uncommon as part of power-creep versus a bump to rarity is up for debate.
At uncommon...
Look- precedents are important, but it seems like rarities are pretty flexible as time goes on. The block, set mechanics, or flavor may pull a rarity in one direction or another. The cards are great uncommons and would matter in limited with scry triggers if they were uncommons. You could build THE scry deck, and these would help a bunch. Not at rare- not at all. For some reason you seem to think that the zendikar gain life lands are what make these rares when it really should be proving why these should be uncommons. Tapped duel lands have been getting better and better AT uncommon, and having the scry lands at uncommon would have followed this trajectory. These at rare is just wrong, and it is plain for casual players and competitive players all to see. Hell, new players apparently get bummed when they open lands in the rare spot, and now that will happen as well as competitive players getting pissed when they have a clear-cut uncommon in the rare slot...
I wish I had ten hands to I could give this RARE cycle ten thumbs down.
Feel free to tell me yours!
Refuges are not the reason they could be seen as reasonable at Rare. New Benalia is the reason. These cards are stronger than the Refuges but weaker than most rare lands. Maro himself said they in between uncommon and rare, they are on the cusp. Wizards erred on the side of caution and made them rare to limit the "dig for the bomb" aspect in limited. I am just sick of everyone spewing hate at them as if its the biggest outrage ever and shoving guildgates in our face as if they are a long running established evergreen thing and not an unusual occurrence that only happened because of nature of the block they were in.
Under Original Management!
Bane's Reading Suggestions
David Eddings: The Belgariad, Mallorean, Elenium and Tamuli Series. The Redemption of Althalus
Jim Butcher: The Codex Alera Series
I'm also relatively certain this decision will come to be regarded as a mistake.
The backlash present in this thread is a pretty clear indicator that some other design,
or these at Uncommon was the better decision,
and they will likely lose at least a little money because of it.
I doubt I'm the only one less excited about Theros now than I was yesterday.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
no one is arguing that the lands are good or bad. they are arguing that the rarity is higher than it should be. a better comparison is as arcane sanctum is to the refuge's which is an uncommon as all other dual cipt lands have been lately. yes it is better than the refuge's but honestly, it is in many cases weaker than the tri/vivid lands. should the ability to make an additional color of mana be worth less than being able to scry once?
Arcane Sanctum existed in a multi-color block, and much like the Guildgates required mana fixing at lower rarities.
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I would like to have at least seen some flavor or potential upside for how they are hard tapped. I mean man lands have sort of shown that you want some value from tapped lands, at least add on some mana ability to give some flavor.
I mean (XCC) - until end of turn this land counts as one devotion to C and C, would have been neat. (c = whatever color the dual is)
1. They are rare. I was going to buy a Theros Booster Box, but these have made me not want to do that. They wouldn't have destroyed limited at uncommon, and putting them at rare makes is not putting it just a step above New Benalia and Kazandu Refuge, it is putting it a step above Arcane Sanctum as well. I'd say that access to a third color of mana is worth more than scry one.
2. I am primarily a Modern player. I don't play standard or limited. I was expecting one of the 4 uncompleted land cycles from future sight to be completed. These are unplayable in Modern, and I really needed a Horizon Canopy and Grove of the Burnwillows to be in UB, BG, and UG colors.
3. This just feels like lazy design. They take an Elfhame Palace and stick scry 1 on it, just like they've been doing to everything else in the set. There are many innovative designs that I've seen people come up with on this forum since these were shown that would have been better such as
Theros Dual Land
Land (Uncommon)
Add or to your mana pool.
Theros Dual Land enters the battlefeld tapped unless if you control an enchantment.
Theros Dual Land
Land-Plains Island (Rare)
Add or to your mana pool.
Theros Dual Land enters the battlefield tapped.
Theros Dual Land
Land (Rare)
Add or to your mana pool.
Theros Dual Land enters the battlefield tapped.
Whenever you count the amount of blue or white mana symbols in permanents you control for devotion, add 1 to that amount.
These would promoted the block's themes better and the last two would have been more powerful than it without tearing up standard or limited. The last one would also have more flavor as a temple than the scry lands. It just seems like there were a lot of things that could have made this cycle better but they were lazy and just stuck scry on everything.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The CIPT tapped represents the time you spent worshipping at at the temple. For that time you gain access to the colors worshipped there and the insight/visions that scry represents.
The idea that people actually think these are some of the worst duals ever is melting my brain.
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Bane's Reading Suggestions
David Eddings: The Belgariad, Mallorean, Elenium and Tamuli Series. The Redemption of Althalus
Jim Butcher: The Codex Alera Series
On the other hand, If I was running R/G and Temple of Abandon was a Mountain/Forest, Peak Eruption would be able to hit every mana fixing land in my deck. I'm sure that was part of the decision not to add the sub-types.
Besides, we may even get the equivalent of Farseek for the Temples, something like a pilgrimage.
I'll buy/trade for a playset of a few rares I like once prices calm down and I'm done.
No, we won't they don't have subtypes so they can't make a tutor specifically for them.
Same here.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
They are *very* arguably the worst Rare duals in Modern.
Temple of Mystery is a decent card to run in control, but it is (usually) inferior to:
I'd say we have a decent precedent of Duals that are both useful and well-designed
(And more importantly, well-received).
These have ratcheted that level down quite a bit.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Another way to look at it is like this: Temple of Silence is pretty much just a rough compromise between Arcane Sanctum and New Benalia, both uncommons. (After this "compromise," each produces two different colors of mana, and each has Scry 0.5. That's only short half-a-scry per card, which is negligible.) Arcane Sanctum is a strong uncommon (let's say 5 out of 5); New Benalia seems middling (let's say 3 out of 5). This suggests that if Temple of Silence were an uncommon, it would still rank only slightly higher than a 4 out of 5 in terms of power.
On a slightly different note, I really wish these were uncommon because non-rare, enemy-colored duals are practically nonexistent (save for the Ravnica gates and bouncelands). Of course, it doesn't matter how many reasons I give for why these should be uncommon, because WotC is not going to change them.
You have to look at the sets as well. Arcane Sanctum came out in a set of 249 cards, where 36/57 of the gold cards were 3-color, and only produced mana. Temple of Silence is in a set that may have less gold cards, and likely none of them will be 3 colors. Also ETBT, it also has scry 1 on ETB. From the perspective of which card is better for Modern, yes it would be Arcane Sanctum. Comparing how the cards do within their respective sets, Temple of Silence is more powerful, even if the difference is slight.
Edit: I am not saying that the new duals are amazing, only that I understand some of the reasoning behind why they were printed as they are.
just for expecting what has become the status quo.
It's not our fault things have been so good for so long (since Shadowmoor if not since Ravnica 1.0)-
in this case, the "parents" are to blame for suddenly and drastically shifting standards.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Eternal formats will ignore these. Enemy colored EDH decks will be glad for the additional mana fixer. Modern will scoff. These won't make much of an appearance in Standard until M14/"Huey," when players no longer have access to the Shocklands. Though I'm still hoping WotC has the decency to print the Inn Checklands in M14 to increase the availability.
Coldsnap:
10th Edition:
The pain lands are an iconic cycle of lands for god knows how long until the inception of the new Core Set (or "Check") lands. They ETB untapped and could tap for 1, which overall doesn't interrupt your mana curve. On top of that, they can tap for colors the turn they ETB (and every turn thereafter for that matter) by taking 1 damage. Being able to tap for one of two colors the turn it ETB is much better than having to wait a turn in order to Scry 1 one time (in most instances). Even the drawback of the pain lands could be mitigated by just tapping these lands for colorless instead. Hell, by the time the damage matters to a large degree (late game, when you are low on life) chances are you have some other land or combination of lands to make up the colors you need, so you didn't feel bad about having to tap it for colorless mana.
The other cycle of lands in this set were the iconic mono-color man-lands: Faerie Conlcave, Forbidding Watchtower, Ghitu Encampment, Spawning Pool, and Treetop Village. When these were Standard legal, these were run in almost any deck. A land that taps for a color and turns into a blocker or a beater when you need it while also not taking up essential slots needed for spells is amazing regardless of rarity. In the case of this cycle, many players were willing to give up speed for utility. Even then, smart players knew when to drop these lands to minimize the disruption in their curve by having to wait for them to untap. The value of the utility in these lands were equivalent (often greater) than the 8th edition uncommon land cycle. Forbidding Watchtower is definitely considered to be better than New Benalia. So logically, the power level of these lands are approximate to the power level of the new Scry lands.
I'll continue expanding on this later, but for right now I'll make an addendum to my original post as well.
Sure, they probably shouldn't have warranted rare slots, but don't knock it till you've tried it. Everyone's judging them in a vacuum, with practically no thought to block interaction. I'd be surprised if there are no cards that interact favorably with scry