I'm personally intrigued by the changes to exiled card references (mostly for Imprint and Strionic Resonator). Now that "the exiled card" refers to all cards exiled that way, things like Elite Arcanist can use multiple spells at once (for more mana), but more importantly, Isochron Scepter can give you double the spells for the same cost. Seems pretty sweet to me.
I realize that the Rules don't always apply in silver-border land, but with new expansion symbol rules change, wouldn't Symbol Status no longer produce any tokens? Since the expansion symbol is no longer a card characteristic, the spell would never see any when it resolves. I realize this is a very narrow application, and not in the spirit of silver-bordered cards, but just wanted to check that this was a functional change.
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"You are what you pretend to be, so you must be careful what you pretend to be" from Mother Night
They did not close that loophole, they're just printing new cards that have different wording, so that loophole doesn't exist with those cards.
This isn't what it sounded like when I read it:
To fix this, rule 610.3a says that the initial one-shot effect that moves the object won't move it if the specified event that returns it has already occurred. So, the "stack loophole" doesn't work.
No, you should have kept reading the article:
It's important to note that this new style of ability won't appear on older cards. Oblivion Ring will continue to do what it does. No older cards are changing.
Quote:
To fix this, rule 610.3a says that the initial one-shot effect that moves the object won't move it if the specified event that returns it has already occurred. So, the "stack loophole" doesn't work.
Because it sure seems like when there is a rules update, and a new 'rule' is added, that it would apply to the 'rules' of the game. However, people are saying that the 'rules' don't apply to o-ring? Why would that be?
The new rule is for the new wording on cards like Banisher Priest and Colossal Whale. There is no change to cards with the old wording like Oblivion Ring. They're just not going to use the old wording anymore for new cards.
Two: The Urza's Saga version of Dark Ritual (like the Mirage, Fifth Edition, and Tempest versions) have "Mana Source" printed on the type line, with Errata changing the cards to Instants.
You can still counter a dark ritual. I don't know what point you're trying to make. I know DR was a mana source, but its not anymore regardless of what printing you can play.
You can still counter a dark ritual. I don't know what point you're trying to make. I know DR was a mana source, but its not anymore regardless of what printing you can play.
I realize that the Rules don't always apply in silver-border land, but with new expansion symbol rules change, wouldn't Symbol Status no longer produce any tokens? Since the expansion symbol is no longer a card characteristic, the spell would never see any when it resolves. I realize this is a very narrow application, and not in the spirit of silver-bordered cards, but just wanted to check that this was a functional change.
I'm not sure Symbol Status cares if it's a characteristic. Rule 200 still defines "expansion symbol" as part of the card, and Rule 206 still defines what an expansion symbol is. It's similar to the use of "Artist" in Unhinged.
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"A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness." - Wizards of the Coast Official Reprint Policy
That wasn't ever an issue. The converted mana cost of a convoked spell doesn't change no matter how many creatures you tap for it. Anything that looks for a spell with a certain CMC doesn't care how much you actually spent for it.
I do wonder if Nix can still counter a spell that has been convoked completely (say Gather Courage via a tapped green creature). I want to say no longer.
That's a tricky issue there. Tapping a creature "pays for" the mana cost, so you technically just paid that mana cost using a different means. I'd say that Nix got nixed.
That's a tricky issue there. Tapping a creature "pays for" the mana cost, so you technically just paid that mana cost using a different means. I'd say that Nix got nixed.
Here's the new rule:
702.50. Convoke
702.50a Convoke is a static ability that functions while the spell with convoke is on the stack. "Convoke" means "For each colored mana in this spell's total cost, you may tap an untapped creature of that color you control rather than pay that mana. For each generic mana in this spell's total cost, you may tap an untapped creature you control rather than pay that mana." The convoke ability isn't an additional or alternative cost and applies only after the total cost of the spell with convoke is determined.
Example: Heartless Summoning says, in part, "Creature spells you cast cost {2} less to cast. You control Heartless Summoning and cast Siege Wurm, a spell with convoke that costs {5}{G}{G}. The total cost to cast Siege Wurm is {3}{G}{G}. After activating mana abilities, you pay that total cost. You may tap up to two green creatures and up to three creatures of any color to pay that cost, and the remainder is paid with mana.
The key here is that it says "rather than pay". You are tapping the creature RATHER THAN paying the mana. If you only tap creatures to play the convoked spell, then you haven't payed any mana, so Nix should still counter it.
This new rule was added to cover cases where you are instructed to cast a spell with a mandatory additional cost that includes actions involving cards with a stated quality in a hidden zone if able. That's a mouthful. For example, say you're forced to cast Disaster Radius if able. The game doesn't really know if you have a creature card in your hand or not. We don't want you to have to call a judge to verify that you're being honest about the contents of your hand. So, in the spirit of the "fail to find" rule, now you don't have to pay that additional cost and cast the spell."
So if I don't want to and I am forced to cast Altar's Reap I do not have to sacrifice a creature even if I have one to do it?
Basically, but can you come up with some other card that forces you to cast a certain spell? Most effects that do this are optional, such as Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm, and in that case you probably cant circumvent the addtional cost.
I know Word of Command exists, but in that case, your hand is public information, so it wouldnt apply either.
I am not a rule lawyer it was a question. Now if you suspend a card (just getting into Modern) with say Jhoira of the Ghitu that had a spell with a mandatory additional cost will this rule protect you from those additional costs when the fourth time counter is removed?
I realize that the Rules don't always apply in silver-border land, but with new expansion symbol rules change, wouldn't Symbol Status no longer produce any tokens? Since the expansion symbol is no longer a card characteristic, the spell would never see any when it resolves. I realize this is a very narrow application, and not in the spirit of silver-bordered cards, but just wanted to check that this was a functional change.
As you referenced, Prismetrix ("the spirit of silver-bordered cards"), I think that it is fair to say that Un-set games require their own flexible interpretations of rules, suplemented by whatever logical rule extensions and changes are needed to make Un-set's unique mechanics function as intended.
As you referenced, Prismetrix ("the spirit of silver-bordered cards"), I think that it is fair to say that Un-set games require their own flexible interpretations of rules, suplemented by whatever logical rule extensions and changes are needed to make Un-set's unique mechanics function as intended.
Indeed. By black-border rules, many silver-bordered cards have never worked.
This new rule was added to cover cases where you are instructed to cast a spell with a mandatory additional cost that includes actions involving cards with a stated quality in a hidden zoneif able. That's a mouthful. For example, say you're forced to cast Disaster Radius if able. The game doesn't really know if you have a creature card in your hand or not. We don't want you to have to call a judge to verify that you're being honest about the contents of your hand. So, in the spirit of the "fail to find" rule, now you don't have to pay that additional cost and cast the spell."
So if I don't want to and I am forced to cast Altar's Reap I do not have to sacrifice a creature even if I have one to do it?
The bolded part is important. The battlefield is not a hidden zone. so, if you control a creature and you're forced to cast Altar's Reap if able, you have to do so (and you have to sacrifice a creature).
Basically, but can you come up with some other card that forces you to cast a certain spell? Most effects that do this are optional, such as Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm, and in that case you probably cant circumvent the addtional cost.
I know Word of Command exists, but in that case, your hand is public information, so it wouldnt apply either.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the hand is always considered a hidden zone, even if its contents are known by all players.
I can't discern whether or not the new rule affecting interactions between cards like Ingot Chewer and Oblivion Ring (rule 610.3) would change an interaction like the example I am about to lie out (I should probably go to rules discussion, huh?) Here it is:
- Cast Mulldrifter for its Evoke cost
- With the draw two effect on the stack, you blink Mulldrifter using Momentary Blink
- When Mulldrifter comes back, the game sees it as a different copy than the one you Evoked, so you are not required to sacrifice it.
- As a result, the 2/2 flier remains on the battlefield and you draw two cards as normal, and you also get the two cards from the original Evoke.
I hope I wrote that in a way people can understand it. The third and fourth lines are where I get tangled trying to explain it using only Magic terminology. Most competitive players realize this interactions occurs, but many casual players don't, or players who came along after Time Spiral/Lorwyn Standard season.
So my question is, again, would this interaction be affected by the rules changes?
Concerning whether or not interactions like this SHOULD exist: It does seem like a player who is unaware of the interaction would feel like he/she was being cheated by their favorite game. I think it's a super bad ass play, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't care if it was changed or not, but interactions like this are doing something the cards don't clearly advertise as something that would occur.
- Cast Mulldrifter for it's Evoke cost
- With the draw two effect on the stack, you blink Mulldrifter using Momentary Blink
- When Mulldrifter comes back, the game sees it as a different copy than the one you Evoked, so you are not required to sacrifice it.
- As a result, the 2/2 flier remains on the battlefield and you draw two cards as normal, and you also get the two cards from the original Evoke.
So my question is, again, would this interaction be affected by the rules changes?
No.
You blink it before the "sacrifice it" trigger resolves and there's no "it" after the blink effect resolved so that triggered ability just do nothing.
Thank you, Joneleth. It's late here and I'm not thinking at full capacity. Are you saying this interaction didn't work as I thought OR that the interaction will not work AFTER the M14 rules change?
Thank you, Joneleth. Just for clarification, you are saying this interaction still exists AFTER the M14 rules changes? Or that this doesn't even work? Sorry, it's late and I'm not thinking at full capacity.
The M14 change (well, the part you're teferring to) only gives them a new template they'll use for new Oblivion Ring-variants. This part of the change doesn't affect any older cards.
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Yes, this sets up a lot of cool possibilities.
I realize that the Rules don't always apply in silver-border land, but with new expansion symbol rules change, wouldn't Symbol Status no longer produce any tokens? Since the expansion symbol is no longer a card characteristic, the spell would never see any when it resolves. I realize this is a very narrow application, and not in the spirit of silver-bordered cards, but just wanted to check that this was a functional change.
First posted EDH deck: Hakim, Beardmaster
No, you should have kept reading the article:
The new rule is for the new wording on cards like Banisher Priest and Colossal Whale. There is no change to cards with the old wording like Oblivion Ring. They're just not going to use the old wording anymore for new cards.
You can still counter a dark ritual. I don't know what point you're trying to make. I know DR was a mana source, but its not anymore regardless of what printing you can play.
It was a joke.
B Lover Since '09 ~
Standard:
meh.
Modern:
Urzatron GR
Vintage:
Contol-Slaver UBR
EDH:
Drana B
Jhoira UR
Savra BG
Turned into:
Adun Oakenshield BGR
Sharuum BUW
Turned into:
Memnarch U
KiKi-Jiki R
Turned into:
Godo R
Turned into:
Aurelia RW
The Mimeoplasm UBG
Rasputin Dreamweaver UW
Turned into:
Geist of Saint Traft -French 1v1 UW
Nekusar UBR
I'm not sure Symbol Status cares if it's a characteristic. Rule 200 still defines "expansion symbol" as part of the card, and Rule 206 still defines what an expansion symbol is. It's similar to the use of "Artist" in Unhinged.
Sure doesn't seem like a joke because no one is laughing.
I thought it was kind of clever.
That's a tricky issue there. Tapping a creature "pays for" the mana cost, so you technically just paid that mana cost using a different means. I'd say that Nix got nixed.
Here's the new rule:
The key here is that it says "rather than pay". You are tapping the creature RATHER THAN paying the mana. If you only tap creatures to play the convoked spell, then you haven't payed any mana, so Nix should still counter it.
This new rule was added to cover cases where you are instructed to cast a spell with a mandatory additional cost that includes actions involving cards with a stated quality in a hidden zone if able. That's a mouthful. For example, say you're forced to cast Disaster Radius if able. The game doesn't really know if you have a creature card in your hand or not. We don't want you to have to call a judge to verify that you're being honest about the contents of your hand. So, in the spirit of the "fail to find" rule, now you don't have to pay that additional cost and cast the spell."
So if I don't want to and I am forced to cast Altar's Reap I do not have to sacrifice a creature even if I have one to do it?
I am not a rule lawyer it was a question. Now if you suspend a card (just getting into Modern) with say Jhoira of the Ghitu that had a spell with a mandatory additional cost will this rule protect you from those additional costs when the fourth time counter is removed?
As you referenced, Prismetrix ("the spirit of silver-bordered cards"), I think that it is fair to say that Un-set games require their own flexible interpretations of rules, suplemented by whatever logical rule extensions and changes are needed to make Un-set's unique mechanics function as intended.
What happens if we remove colour restrictions from EDH
The /tg/ Custom Cards Cube (MTGS thread)
My blog that has some Magic stuff
The bolded part is important. The battlefield is not a hidden zone. so, if you control a creature and you're forced to cast Altar's Reap if able, you have to do so (and you have to sacrifice a creature).
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the hand is always considered a hidden zone, even if its contents are known by all players.
- Cast Mulldrifter for its Evoke cost
- With the draw two effect on the stack, you blink Mulldrifter using Momentary Blink
- When Mulldrifter comes back, the game sees it as a different copy than the one you Evoked, so you are not required to sacrifice it.
- As a result, the 2/2 flier remains on the battlefield and you draw two cards as normal, and you also get the two cards from the original Evoke.
I hope I wrote that in a way people can understand it. The third and fourth lines are where I get tangled trying to explain it using only Magic terminology. Most competitive players realize this interactions occurs, but many casual players don't, or players who came along after Time Spiral/Lorwyn Standard season.
So my question is, again, would this interaction be affected by the rules changes?
Concerning whether or not interactions like this SHOULD exist: It does seem like a player who is unaware of the interaction would feel like he/she was being cheated by their favorite game. I think it's a super bad ass play, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't care if it was changed or not, but interactions like this are doing something the cards don't clearly advertise as something that would occur.
No.
You blink it before the "sacrifice it" trigger resolves and there's no "it" after the blink effect resolved so that triggered ability just do nothing.
The M14 change (well, the part you're teferring to) only gives them a new template they'll use for new Oblivion Ring-variants. This part of the change doesn't affect any older cards.