It's time like this that I have to take a deep breath and go read through the good ol' Sphinx's Revelation spoiler discussion thread, to help remind me that people here are often... overzealous... in their condemnation of new cards.
i just want to quote this. because its so true. how many cards were considerer terrible and unplayable in this forum, when it was spoiled. and how many were utterly overhyped?
but i like that many guys here have no idea how to value cards, this overhypes bad cards which i can sell early for a lot more than they are really worth, and underhype cards which i hold, and get them cheap early on, just to stell them for double or tripple the amount later.
i just want to remember things like temporal mastery, which was completly hyped here, drove the price to 25€, i sold 3 of them early on. and how much is it worth now?
same for sphinx revelation.. i got 5 early on, for 3-5€. now its 15€.
to make my oppinion clear: this garruk is definitly not the best walker ever printed, but he will see more play than jace, architect. people really underestimate how powerful it is, to draw 2-4 cards each turn he lives...
also you should remember that we will probably see a lot of expensive fatty legends in theros, which makes his -3 much better, since he has more useful targets than just the worldspinewurm.
He seems like a bad Tooth & Nail / Summoner's Trap...
For 1 more mana, you get to search your library for any 2 creatures you need or put 2 directly from your hand into play immediately. For an additional 2 mana you get to entwine and do both.
For the same mana (or possibly 0!), you get to semi+1 and -3 at the same time at instant speed.
I think a lot of people are forgetting that you can use this guy with mana dorks extremely well. First two turns dropping 3 dorks and this guy on turn three means either more fuel for the creatures, a massive fatty (on turn three, I remind you), and over time with the defensive games those one drops can turn into worldspine wurms or whatever else you'd like.
For a while this will be pretty nice. New Llanowar Elf 2.0, Avacyn Pilgrim, Arbor Elf. However, I'm running into issues with this because at least at the meta near me, even Sphinx's Revelations cannot stand up to the massive aggro decks that is mono red, gruul, and the like. I prefer Garruk's previous incarnations and feel this just missed the mark. It is a neat Tooth and Nail, so I will look at it like that and I should remind myself that Tooth and Nail did see some competitive play.
Than explain me why will it be diffrent? New Garruk is bad in standard and modern, and EDH won't make his price high.
In Standard before You even manage to but him on board You'll be on 5 life vs bant hexproof, naya blitz, naya aggro or gr aggro. That's a fact.
In Modern a 6 mana PW is just a no.
Prove me wrong son.
My 2 cents.
When i first saw it, i had the same reaction as most of you. "6cmc...this card sux".
Then i read the abilities and said "This card sux, bu it will go for insanely high price cos the abilities are not that bad..."
What's the point? In the current meta, no1 in their right mind will play it, meaning its price will fall pretty fast.
BUT,,,,when Innistrad block rotates...there won't be a single deck that remains untouched. Many will simply disappear (reanimator), others will adapt (dunno which can), and new decks will be born.
If the next REAL expansion brings a slower meta, or cards like the old Eldrazi (a green or gold version at least), this card will actually be good and playable even in multiples.
Let's say....the right card...in the wrong moment.
It's time like this that I have to take a deep breath and go read through the good ol' Sphinx's Revelation spoiler discussion thread, to help remind me that people here are often... overzealous... in their condemnation of new cards.
Thanks for reminding me that I picked up a playset of Rev for $8 before people realized what it was capable of
I'm not sure what I think of new Garruk. He's the only incarnation to not produce tokens interestingly enough, which I always appreciated in each version of Garruk. Right now I'm not quite sure which deck wants him, especially with Domri in the format. I guess if Theros is like a gym shortly after New Year's he'll have plenty of solid targets.
I'm frustrated by the new art; it's the kind of thing that just makes collectors sad pandas because they don't want to pay $100's for a $5-10 card.
The new garruk is actually pretty good, he wont see play immedetly, but i'm sure when theros gets here we will see a lot more creatures to play with for this guy, with him you can build a mono-green deck and be a little greedy with some multicolor creatures, he's kinda like a tooth and nail but in standard. In edh he is going to be a massive powerhouse, and with him costing 6, i hope that wizards is trying to funnel us into a standard format where longer games are more frequent, (at least when there not control mirrors).
As for the super cool promos, if anyone is going to get any, idk how we can do this but I would totaly pay you to get me one of each walker for my planeswalker collection. PM me if you want to bargain, i can pay you through paypal and i'll cover shipping and stuff.
Than explain me why will it be diffrent? New Garruk is bad in standard and modern, and EDH won't make his price high.
In Standard before You even manage to but him on board You'll be on 5 life vs bant hexproof, naya blitz, naya aggro or gr aggro. That's a fact.
In Modern a 6 mana PW is just a no.
Prove me wrong son.
At 5 life? Then play Garruk and -3 a Thragtusk. Now you're at 10.
Chandra Ablaze and Sorin Markov are the only 6 mana planeswalkers. Garruk is considerably more powerful than either. Neither of the two are green, and neither of the two give card advantage while gaining loyalty. I'm not saying that he'll be Modern playable for sure, but reasoning that he won't be playable because Chandra Ablaze and Sorin Markov are unplayable is illogical.
I hope his price isn't high. You can grab Primal Hunter for $10, and I expect Caller of Beasts to be the same or lower than that. I hope he's like >$5 so I can grab a bunch of them.
He will do fine with new uniqueness/lefend rule, so you can use other Garruks for a few months to make tokens and protect, then lose the old one to cast the new one. I imagine he will be minus ability immediately more than plus ability.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"In response to your Brainstorm, I use Vedalken Orrery to play Chains of Mephistopheles as an instant."
-- Duncan McGregor, DCI L3 Judge, while playing his "judgebreaker" deck in an IRL EDH game
Ok this guy was printed with theros in mind. If you nerf his CMC then he becomes this great broken card and would be played everywhere. As is you will want to ramp into this guy and play your big fat green creature, of which there arent many. Borborgymos and Giant Aphendage and Worldspine Wurm. Hopefully theros will give us some new fatties for this Garruk
Or you could just cast the wurm. Not to mention Armada Wurm is pretty frikkin far from being a game.
Tempo people, tempo. It's not about cheating a Wurm into play. It's about spending six mana to play both your six-drop creature AND a card advantage engine in the same turn.
Garruk is potentially very good for much the same reason that Cloud of Faeries and Treachery are good. You young whippersnappers probably don't remember that, but the virtual mana you gain from free spells is really good.
It really isn't a question about whether he's good. He is. The question is whether there is a home for him. Costing six prices him out of most eternal formats, but it's completely possible he finds a home in some new standard deck.
Well to be fair, if you -3 him right away, he needs to survive for 2 more turns before you can do it again, and any flying creature (unless you bring in Ruric Thar) kills him.
Its far more optimal to have a board presence so you can start with a +1, which will give you a lot more options regarding what creature you want to -3 in the field.
You don't play this duder looking to abuse his -3. Show and Tell for 6 mana is not a good card. The -3 is just a way to deploy his very, very good card advantage ability with no loss of tempo. It doesn't even have to be a monster. Tapping six mana for a one-sided howling mine AND a Boros Reckoner on the same turn seems like a fine thing to do.
So, you cast him, maybe -3 if you have to, and then you start drawing tons of cards unless they deal with him. Remember, a normal deck with 20 creatures means you're drawing +1 / +2 cards each turn. That's nothing to sniff at!
And, yea, creatures with evasion kill planeswalkers. That's true. But that doesn't invalidate Garruk any more than any other walker.
Or you could just cast the wurm. Not to mention Armada Wurm is pretty frikkin far from being a game.
If Garruk had 3 starting loyalty, this would be a sound argument against him. If he had 3 starting loyalty, he'd be a sorcery speed Dramatic Entrance for one more mana.
Instead he sticks around to grab creatures for you the turn afterwards. If Garruk only does his -3 once during the match (which should be the turn you play him), and just +1's for the rest of his time on the battlefield, he's winning you the game in short order. Your opponent will never have enough removal and/or blockers to deal with all those creatures. They will have to get rid of Garruk or lose.
If Garruk had 3 starting loyalty, this would be a sound argument against him. If he had 3 starting loyalty, he'd be a sorcery speed Dramatic Entrance for one more mana.
Instead he sticks around to grab creatures for you the turn afterwards. If Garruk only does his -3 once during the match (which should be the turn you play him), and just +1's for the rest of his time on the battlefield, he's winning you the game in short order. Your opponent will never have enough removal and/or blockers to deal with all those creatures. They will have to get rid of Garruk or lose.
Garruk into Armada Wurm is pretty enticing.
Except if you're in topdeck mode when you draw him.... then he's pretty bad....
He's a very situational walker...
Cannot protect itself, asks for a hand with a bomb when you drop him and the game will almost never be long enough for him to use his ultimate.
Still, he's VERY good if the board is in a stalemate state where no one finds advantageous to attack when you drop him...
the card advantage he will generate is going to give you the match in that situation....
In my opinion he's BY FAR the worst Garruk printed to date.
Still... every Garruk is very powerful... this guy also has a lot of potential.
If he just was able to drop ANY creature in the battlefield as opposed to just Green ones, maybe he'd be good enough not to be the worst of the Garruks.
Except if you're in topdeck mode when you draw him.... then he's pretty bad....
He's a very situational walker...
Cannot protect itself, asks for a hand with a bomb when you drop him and the game will almost never be long enough for him to use his ultimate.
Still, he's VERY good if the board is in a stalemate state where no one finds advantageous to attack when you drop him...
the card advantage he will generate is going to give you the match in that situation....
In my opinion he's BY FAR the worst Garruk printed to date.
Still... every Garruk is very powerful... this guy also has a lot of potential.
If he just was able to drop ANY creature in the battlefield as opposed to just Green ones, maybe he'd be good enough not to be the worst of the Garruks.
Can not protect himself? Wow, it's amazing how people can see two completely different cards from the same card.
Here's a counter-argument from a recent article posted elsewhere-
"Garruk, Caller of Beasts, much like Jace, the Mind Sculptor, has a -X ability that impacts the battlefield. Garruk, Caller of Beasts does this constructively, while Jace, the Mind Sculptor does it destructively, but they both have a great impact. Impacting the board, whether it be getting a creature onto the battlefield or clearing an opposing creature, changes the pace of the game."
Garruk is pretty good, folks. But he's far from a Standard staple... we just don't know where his home could/will be yet.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
Hah. You could make a seven-drop walker playable. Something like this:
Chandra, The Expensive 5RR
Starting Loyalty: 5
+1: Sneak Attack
-3: Inferno that only affects opponents and their creatures.
-7: Emblem: all lands controlled by opponents are mountains.
Hah. You could make a seven-drop walker playable. Something like this:
Chandra, The Expensive 5RR
Starting Loyalty: 5
+1: Sneak Attack
-3: Inferno that only affects opponents and their creatures.
-7: Emblem: all lands controlled by opponents are mountains.
That is by far the worst sneak attack I've ever read. One-a-turn cycle sorcery speed sneak attack?
However, if the creature stayed till your Next main phase, then at least it could protect itself as well as trigger ETBs.
i just want to quote this. because its so true. how many cards were considerer terrible and unplayable in this forum, when it was spoiled. and how many were utterly overhyped?
but i like that many guys here have no idea how to value cards, this overhypes bad cards which i can sell early for a lot more than they are really worth, and underhype cards which i hold, and get them cheap early on, just to stell them for double or tripple the amount later.
i just want to remember things like temporal mastery, which was completly hyped here, drove the price to 25€, i sold 3 of them early on. and how much is it worth now?
same for sphinx revelation.. i got 5 early on, for 3-5€. now its 15€.
to make my oppinion clear: this garruk is definitly not the best walker ever printed, but he will see more play than jace, architect. people really underestimate how powerful it is, to draw 2-4 cards each turn he lives...
also you should remember that we will probably see a lot of expensive fatty legends in theros, which makes his -3 much better, since he has more useful targets than just the worldspinewurm.
This seems like a less busted Garruk; previous incarnations were just so strong
For 1 more mana, you get to search your library for any 2 creatures you need or put 2 directly from your hand into play immediately. For an additional 2 mana you get to entwine and do both.
For the same mana (or possibly 0!), you get to semi+1 and -3 at the same time at instant speed.
Sales Thread
For a while this will be pretty nice. New Llanowar Elf 2.0, Avacyn Pilgrim, Arbor Elf. However, I'm running into issues with this because at least at the meta near me, even Sphinx's Revelations cannot stand up to the massive aggro decks that is mono red, gruul, and the like. I prefer Garruk's previous incarnations and feel this just missed the mark. It is a neat Tooth and Nail, so I will look at it like that and I should remind myself that Tooth and Nail did see some competitive play.
My 2 cents.
When i first saw it, i had the same reaction as most of you. "6cmc...this card sux".
Then i read the abilities and said "This card sux, bu it will go for insanely high price cos the abilities are not that bad..."
What's the point? In the current meta, no1 in their right mind will play it, meaning its price will fall pretty fast.
BUT,,,,when Innistrad block rotates...there won't be a single deck that remains untouched. Many will simply disappear (reanimator), others will adapt (dunno which can), and new decks will be born.
If the next REAL expansion brings a slower meta, or cards like the old Eldrazi (a green or gold version at least), this card will actually be good and playable even in multiples.
Let's say....the right card...in the wrong moment.
Thanks for reminding me that I picked up a playset of Rev for $8 before people realized what it was capable of
I'm not sure what I think of new Garruk. He's the only incarnation to not produce tokens interestingly enough, which I always appreciated in each version of Garruk. Right now I'm not quite sure which deck wants him, especially with Domri in the format. I guess if Theros is like a gym shortly after New Year's he'll have plenty of solid targets.
I'm frustrated by the new art; it's the kind of thing that just makes collectors sad pandas because they don't want to pay $100's for a $5-10 card.
Want to be a better Magic player? Read the rulings forum and check out the comprehensive rules!
As for the super cool promos, if anyone is going to get any, idk how we can do this but I would totaly pay you to get me one of each walker for my planeswalker collection. PM me if you want to bargain, i can pay you through paypal and i'll cover shipping and stuff.
Decks:
> Commander:
Thromok the Insatiable (Gruul Feast)
Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer (Myr Legion)
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg:Scion of the Ur-Dragon (Dragon Tribal)
At 5 life? Then play Garruk and -3 a Thragtusk. Now you're at 10.
Chandra Ablaze and Sorin Markov are the only 6 mana planeswalkers. Garruk is considerably more powerful than either. Neither of the two are green, and neither of the two give card advantage while gaining loyalty. I'm not saying that he'll be Modern playable for sure, but reasoning that he won't be playable because Chandra Ablaze and Sorin Markov are unplayable is illogical.
I hope his price isn't high. You can grab Primal Hunter for $10, and I expect Caller of Beasts to be the same or lower than that. I hope he's like >$5 so I can grab a bunch of them.
-- Duncan McGregor, DCI L3 Judge, while playing his "judgebreaker" deck in an IRL EDH game
Armada Wurm doesn't even see block play haha.
Tempo people, tempo. It's not about cheating a Wurm into play. It's about spending six mana to play both your six-drop creature AND a card advantage engine in the same turn.
Garruk is potentially very good for much the same reason that Cloud of Faeries and Treachery are good. You young whippersnappers probably don't remember that, but the virtual mana you gain from free spells is really good.
It really isn't a question about whether he's good. He is. The question is whether there is a home for him. Costing six prices him out of most eternal formats, but it's completely possible he finds a home in some new standard deck.
You don't play this duder looking to abuse his -3. Show and Tell for 6 mana is not a good card. The -3 is just a way to deploy his very, very good card advantage ability with no loss of tempo. It doesn't even have to be a monster. Tapping six mana for a one-sided howling mine AND a Boros Reckoner on the same turn seems like a fine thing to do.
So, you cast him, maybe -3 if you have to, and then you start drawing tons of cards unless they deal with him. Remember, a normal deck with 20 creatures means you're drawing +1 / +2 cards each turn. That's nothing to sniff at!
And, yea, creatures with evasion kill planeswalkers. That's true. But that doesn't invalidate Garruk any more than any other walker.
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If Garruk had 3 starting loyalty, this would be a sound argument against him. If he had 3 starting loyalty, he'd be a sorcery speed Dramatic Entrance for one more mana.
Instead he sticks around to grab creatures for you the turn afterwards. If Garruk only does his -3 once during the match (which should be the turn you play him), and just +1's for the rest of his time on the battlefield, he's winning you the game in short order. Your opponent will never have enough removal and/or blockers to deal with all those creatures. They will have to get rid of Garruk or lose.
Garruk into Armada Wurm is pretty enticing.
Except if you're in topdeck mode when you draw him.... then he's pretty bad....
He's a very situational walker...
Cannot protect itself, asks for a hand with a bomb when you drop him and the game will almost never be long enough for him to use his ultimate.
Still, he's VERY good if the board is in a stalemate state where no one finds advantageous to attack when you drop him...
the card advantage he will generate is going to give you the match in that situation....
In my opinion he's BY FAR the worst Garruk printed to date.
Still... every Garruk is very powerful... this guy also has a lot of potential.
If he just was able to drop ANY creature in the battlefield as opposed to just Green ones, maybe he'd be good enough not to be the worst of the Garruks.
Ajani- 3cmc
Lilliana- 4cmc
Jace- 5 cmc
Garruk- 6cmc
Chandra-???
Confirmation Chandra will be same CMC as Tibalt?
It's Hip to be a Square
Or a 7 drop Chandra?
I would die.
That was my next guess
It's Hip to be a Square
Can not protect himself? Wow, it's amazing how people can see two completely different cards from the same card.
Here's a counter-argument from a recent article posted elsewhere-
"Garruk, Caller of Beasts, much like Jace, the Mind Sculptor, has a -X ability that impacts the battlefield. Garruk, Caller of Beasts does this constructively, while Jace, the Mind Sculptor does it destructively, but they both have a great impact. Impacting the board, whether it be getting a creature onto the battlefield or clearing an opposing creature, changes the pace of the game."
Garruk is pretty good, folks. But he's far from a Standard staple... we just don't know where his home could/will be yet.
Hah. You could make a seven-drop walker playable. Something like this:
Chandra, The Expensive 5RR
Starting Loyalty: 5
+1: Sneak Attack
-3: Inferno that only affects opponents and their creatures.
-7: Emblem: all lands controlled by opponents are mountains.
That is by far the worst sneak attack I've ever read. One-a-turn cycle sorcery speed sneak attack?
However, if the creature stayed till your Next main phase, then at least it could protect itself as well as trigger ETBs.
It's Hip to be a Square