I'm not sure what Standard you are seeing, but the metagame is in enough flux for there to be weeks with little very little of any particular deck/archetype, and its in those instances a powerful roleplayer like Garruk can be great (on top of being an alright card on his own time). Also, I might be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure matches of competitive Magic are played with these wonderful things called Sideboards which allow you to flex your deck to make it more robust depending on what your opponent's plan is. Not every card in a deck is good in every match up. If you followed your argument to its logical conclusion, the only playable spells would be ones that are good against aggro, control, midrange and ramp/combo. As such, arguing Garruk's weaknesses based on the merits of deckbuilding is a fallacious argument (but not woefully esoteric).
Your anecdotal method of countering peoples' arguments is tiresome and rarely leads to anything conclusive. People used these sorts of phantom arguments to make Jace, the Mind Sculptor seem tame and overhyped because there were, supposedly, so many ways to interact with it. Fact: the only ways to interact with a card are ones that people play, not simply theoretical answers.
Now, by no means is this Garruk as good as Jace, TMS, but that's besides the point (if we were still comparing new Walkers to that none of them would be 'good'). What matters is what can viably happen with this card, what other cards would see play in the same slot as it, and which decks want it from week to week.
And your theory that pointing out that this garruk isn't good against midrange, aggro, or control is somehow tantamount to saying that JTMS is a bad card is ridiculous. The arguments against this garruk are quite simple.
He costs 6 mana. This is generally a mana cost at which spells are expected to end the game. The only 6+ mana PW to see serious play was karn, and that's because he had 0 color requirements, because he could vindicate with an upside, and because he was present in a standard in which ramp was the best deck, and in modern where tron is a thing. When we look at 6-CC creatures that have seen serious play, we see things like the titans that had an immediate impact on the board and won the game in short order.
His +1 wants your deck to be running like 30 relevant creatures to find, but his mana cost wants you to be ramping which is going to dilute what you find off his +1. Further, his +1 doesn't protect him, which is a pretty big mark against a CMC 6 PW. Finally, spelless decks are fragile against creature hate (obviously)
His -3 wants you to play huge fatties, of which there are 3 in standard that cost more than garruk that you might conceivably want to cheat into play (Borb, craterhoof, and worldspine). Of those 3, only craterhoof is something that has seen any play, and if you're going that route (or going for Borb also) you're better off doing it with reanimate. If you're playing the wurm, you are essentially mulliganing every time you have it in hand without garruk. Not to mention even if you DO cheat out a wurm, there are multiple ways in standard to bounce or exile it.
His ultimate doesn't matter, because the only time you ever ultimate a PW in constructed you were already winning.
I'm not saying he's a bad card because I "just can't see it." He's a bad card because he doesn't give enough of an effect for his mana cost and he's not really good against any of the archetypes we are seeing in standard right now. But as I said above, we'll see who is right in 6 months.
Most standard games aren't over by turn 6. Unless aggro god-hands, games are usually not over before turn 6.
Caller will likely do about as well against aggro as Primal Hunter does. Did you notice that he can bring a creature out onto the board with him, and still have 1 loyalty to continue filling your hand with creatures? That's not doing nothing. That's board advantage one turn and card advantage the next.
Going from 5 to 6 mana is a big deal. Also, primal hunter got to +1 and put a creature on the board with him, and still have 4 loyalty left.
Prime speaker draws you 5 cards and leaves you with a 5/5. She doesn't draw you 1.5 cards and leave you with a 5 loyalty PW that will probably be dead next turn (and Zegana doesn't see much play, which is why she's $4, and she's probably better in most situations than this garruk). Aurelia ends the game the turn you cast her, which is what a 6-drop should do.
It seems that Garruk is meant to bring a creature onto the battlefield with him as a means of protecting himself.
The monetary cost of a card says more about how hard it is to obtain than how competitively viable it is.
Anyways, Zegana needs to have a hefty creature on the board to be worth playing. Aurelia doesn't end the game the turn she is played in my experience, but she's quite good, I agree (she's only a buck or two more than Zegana). My point was that sufficiently powerful six drops can be played in standard, especially in green decks. And no, they don't have to end the game immediately.
It's funny really. I recall people here griping about how terrible Sire of Insanity (another $2 six drop) was before it became a Jund staple. But you can believe whatever you like.
Also, primal hunter got to +1 and put a creature on the board with him, and still have 4 loyalty left.
...So?
Caller being at 1 loyalty after putting a creature on the board isn't really relevant. The opponent still has to get an attacker through or use a card to get rid of him.
Well, if you consider him as a 1 of just a few decks, I'd agree with you. But you are making it sound like he is totally unplayable. On the other hand, as a 1 of in main decks with extras in sideboard for control matches (and yes in decks with 30 creatures, 25 lands, 3 Domri, 1 Garruk, 1 open slot), he will play an important role in those matches.
As a 1-of, sure, not bad, but Garruk PH is still a more desirable walker in a build like that. If you're playing a bunch of creatures, you can draw of him consistently and get more than just creatures. I can't count how many Jund games I've won off of drawing 5 from Thragtusk or just amassing a ton of 3/3's and flooding the board until they cave. I'm not sure Garruk 4.0 can provide that sort of amazing recovery potential.
Personally I wish they would print some good creatures to pair with him. Having a BUG build with Lilli of the Veil, Jace AoT, Tamiyo, and Garruk 4.0 would be a fun deck until post rotation. Have ALL the card advantage!
"We're sorry about printing Worldspine Wurm with pretty much no way of putting it into play. Here's a Garruk that works like a really expensive hasty Elvish Piper. Enjoy"
And your theory that pointing out that this garruk isn't good against midrange, aggro, or control is somehow tantamount to saying that JTMS is a bad card is ridiculous. The arguments against this garruk are quite simple.
He costs 6 mana. This is generally a mana cost at which spells are expected to end the game. The only 6+ mana PW to see serious play was karn, and that's because he had 0 color requirements, because he could vindicate with an upside, and because he was present in a standard in which ramp was the best deck, and in modern where tron is a thing. When we look at 6-CC creatures that have seen serious play, we see things like the titans that had an immediate impact on the board and won the game in short order.
His +1 wants your deck to be running like 30 relevant creatures to find, but his mana cost wants you to be ramping which is going to dilute what you find off his +1. Further, his +1 doesn't protect him, which is a pretty big mark against a CMC 6 PW. Finally, spelless decks are fragile against creature hate (obviously)
His -3 wants you to play huge fatties, of which there are 3 in standard that cost more than garruk that you might conceivably want to cheat into play (Borb, craterhoof, and worldspine). Of those 3, only craterhoof is something that has seen any play, and if you're going that route (or going for Borb also) you're better off doing it with reanimate. If you're playing the wurm, you are essentially mulliganing every time you have it in hand without garruk. Not to mention even if you DO cheat out a wurm, there are multiple ways in standard to bounce or exile it.
His ultimate doesn't matter, because the only time you ever ultimate a PW in constructed you were already winning.
I'm not saying he's a bad card because I "just can't see it." He's a bad card because he doesn't give enough of an effect for his mana cost and he's not really good against any of the archetypes we are seeing in standard right now. But as I said above, we'll see who is right in 6 months.
You don't think Garruk, Caller of Beasts will end the game in short order? Not sure what you expected him to do, but it seems you are very hard to impress. Putting a creature on the board and then digging up another the next turn and the turn after that if unanswered will quickly win a game. He makes creature removal totally ineffective.
You don't need 30 Creatures in your deck for his +1 to be relevant. It digs 5 cards deep. That's a great chance to hit one or two creatures even if you only play 20 creatures. Not sure why people think he needs to give you 5 cards to be worth it. After putting a creature in play, Garruk giving you one creature per turn would be a fine deal.
I believe he's simply going to replace Garruk PH for fighting the CA battle/laughing at control. I'm just not going to pretend he's as good. He has a role to fill and he'll fill it well, but I was expecting a tad more. I'm not afraid to admit I've been spoiled though.
I believe he's simply going to replace Garruk PH for fighting the CA battle/laughing at control. I'm just not going to pretend he's as good. He has a role to fill and he'll fill it well, but I was expecting a tad more. I'm not afraid to admit I've been spoiled though.
I wish Primal Hunter had been reprinted just one more time. I hope to see him in standard again.
That said, I think that Caller of Beasts will do fine in standard. There's no doubt in my mind that he'll see play. He's a good card.
As a 1-of, sure, not bad, but Garruk PH is still a more desirable walker in a build like that. If you're playing a bunch of creatures, you can draw of him consistently and get more than just creatures. I can't count how many Jund games I've won off of drawing 5 from Thragtusk or just amassing a ton of 3/3's and flooding the board until they cave. I'm not sure Garruk 4.0 can provide that sort of amazing recovery potential.
Sure, Primal Hunter is definitely the better all around card, and is much less of a build around me card. You could never put Caller into the Jund decks for instance. That said, what is better: draw 5 random and lose a PW, or draw 2-3 creatures and still have a PW that will draw you 2-3 creatures next turn? Honestly, I don't know the answer to that question, and I think it's very close. Hunter cost one less mana is relevant, and having 2 very good abilities also helps, whereas Caller really only has one ability.
TL;DR - Hunter is definitely better, but there is a lot of room to be worse than Hunter and still be pretty good.
So I modified the deck a little, mana needs work as Rootbound Crag and Sunpetal Grove will have rotated.
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Restoration Angel
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Angel of Serenity
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Farseek
4 Searing Spear
3 Clifftop Retreat
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Slayers' Stronghold
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
(8 Lands below need replaced due to rotation)
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Rootbound Crag
The deck starts out being able to start ramping a little or dropping some value creatures depending on the match-up. Eventually the board state will likely stall and that's when Garruk will be able to come in and just start doing it's thing fetching up more creatures and after going +3 you can turn those creatures into whatever you need.
"If fetch lands are reprinted I really believe they will be in allied colors (aka Onslaught fetches). If the fetch lands are reprinted you better believe that we'll all be fetching up basics. This would lead me to believe that the set after THS may have a reprint as the temples can't be fetched but it's pure speculation." - posted 03/22/2014 proved correct during Khans spoiler season.
"The set releases for fall 2015 (Blood, Sweat and Tears) and fall 2016 (Lock, Stock and Barrel). One or both of those 2 blocks (I'm betting) are going to contain either Fetch reprints or (more likely) Filter reprints. Filter lands still need a reprint. They are getting pretty high up there and it's been longer than ZEN so it makes a little more sense that Filter lands would see print earlier that fetches." - posted 03/22/2014 proved incorrect about filters coming earlier than fetches, still pending on filters in Origins block.
Worst Garruk ever. So disappointing that they didn't just stick with primal hunter. Relentless would have been better than this garbage.
You say that like Garruk Relentless is bad, lol.
He is the 'worst' Garruk (worse than Primal Hunter or Wildspeaker), but he's still a great planeswalker, which is a testament to how awesome Garruk is. Really, he didn't need to get any more powerful. If this Garruk had been better than Primal Hunter, he'd be ridiculous.
the goal, obviously, is to use the acceleration and card draw to power out a lethal craterhoof behemoth. garruk seems to fit right in, 33 creatures means his +1 will tow a heavy load. the -3 is where he makes his living, dropping craterhoofs at least 2 turns before it would normally be due.
prime speaker zegana is a sick drop from garruk's -3, putting cards into your hand and forcing your opponent to deal with multiple threats.
biomancer is a kind of bridge between early and mid-game; early on his 2/4 body stands tall while later on turning 1/1s into considerable threats. gives the deck a decent amount of reach, and the tribal relevance is much appreciated.
tracker's instincts fills an interesting role, digging deeper for the big finish, generating a little card advantage, and turning on deathrite shaman.
this list actually looks pretty good so far, i am excited to see what else m14 has to offer.
I am interested to try this Garruk in an Elf mana acceleration deck in Standard before Theros arrives. With Llanowar Elves, Elvish Mystic, and Avacyn's Pilgrim available, there is a horde of guys to ramp with. Add in Elvish Archdruid and Garruk can appear on turn 4 or even 3. Use him to draw a couple more guys, then next turn play them and use Garruk to play Craterhoof Behemoth for free.
Perhaps Soul of the Harvest has a place in an "Elfball" deck like this. And Blue can be added for Beck.
So my first impression: the new Garruk will be fun to fool around with.
Turn: Drop Garruk, -3 to drop a random fatty (Thragtusk).
Next turn: +1 Garruk, dig five deep and snagging even one or two cards, play another random fatty (Thragtusk #2).
Now, let's look at this WITHOUT Garruk:
Turn: Drop Thragtusk.
Next turn: Drop another Thragtusk.
I mean, the cases are the same, except the one WITH Garruk nets you amazing card advantage for absolutely no tempo loss. And, occasionally, you'll have turns where you can play an extra creature.
6 CMC is a lot for a card that doesn't do much. The only interesting ability is the -3, but even it is overcosted. In every format, even standard, there are better ways to accelerate.
Yeah, Garruk sure is great against imaginary opponents, I will put 4 in my sideboard just for the goldfish matchup. Against real players that attack into planeswalker w/ 1 loyalty? Not so much.
Turn: Drop Garruk, -3 to drop a random fatty (Thragtusk).
Next turn: +1 Garruk, dig five deep and snagging even one or two cards, play another random fatty (Thragtusk #2).
Now, let's look at this WITHOUT Garruk:
Turn: Drop Thragtusk.
Next turn: Drop another Thragtusk.
I mean, the cases are the same, except the one WITH Garruk nets you amazing card advantage for absolutely no tempo loss. And, occasionally, you'll have turns where you can play an extra creature.
6 CMC is a lot for a card that doesn't do much. The only interesting ability is the -3, but even it is overcosted. In every format, even standard, there are better ways to accelerate.
IMHO this card is a real stinker.
Drawing 2-3 cards and gaining life isn't doing much? Guess I should sell my Sphinx's Revelations.
And your theory that pointing out that this garruk isn't good against midrange, aggro, or control is somehow tantamount to saying that JTMS is a bad card is ridiculous. The arguments against this garruk are quite simple.
He costs 6 mana. This is generally a mana cost at which spells are expected to end the game. The only 6+ mana PW to see serious play was karn, and that's because he had 0 color requirements, because he could vindicate with an upside, and because he was present in a standard in which ramp was the best deck, and in modern where tron is a thing. When we look at 6-CC creatures that have seen serious play, we see things like the titans that had an immediate impact on the board and won the game in short order.
His +1 wants your deck to be running like 30 relevant creatures to find, but his mana cost wants you to be ramping which is going to dilute what you find off his +1. Further, his +1 doesn't protect him, which is a pretty big mark against a CMC 6 PW. Finally, spelless decks are fragile against creature hate (obviously)
His -3 wants you to play huge fatties, of which there are 3 in standard that cost more than garruk that you might conceivably want to cheat into play (Borb, craterhoof, and worldspine). Of those 3, only craterhoof is something that has seen any play, and if you're going that route (or going for Borb also) you're better off doing it with reanimate. If you're playing the wurm, you are essentially mulliganing every time you have it in hand without garruk. Not to mention even if you DO cheat out a wurm, there are multiple ways in standard to bounce or exile it.
His ultimate doesn't matter, because the only time you ever ultimate a PW in constructed you were already winning.
I'm not saying he's a bad card because I "just can't see it." He's a bad card because he doesn't give enough of an effect for his mana cost and he's not really good against any of the archetypes we are seeing in standard right now. But as I said above, we'll see who is right in 6 months.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
2 Boros Reckoner
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Restoration Angel
2 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Voice of Resurgence
4 Farseek
4 Searing Spear
3 Selesnya Charm
3 Clifftop Retreat
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Rootbound Crag
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Slayers' Stronghold
4 Stomping Ground
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
Going from 5 to 6 mana is a big deal. Also, primal hunter got to +1 and put a creature on the board with him, and still have 4 loyalty left.
375 unpowered cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/list/601ac624832cdf1039947588
It seems that Garruk is meant to bring a creature onto the battlefield with him as a means of protecting himself.
The monetary cost of a card says more about how hard it is to obtain than how competitively viable it is.
Anyways, Zegana needs to have a hefty creature on the board to be worth playing. Aurelia doesn't end the game the turn she is played in my experience, but she's quite good, I agree (she's only a buck or two more than Zegana). My point was that sufficiently powerful six drops can be played in standard, especially in green decks. And no, they don't have to end the game immediately.
It's funny really. I recall people here griping about how terrible Sire of Insanity (another $2 six drop) was before it became a Jund staple. But you can believe whatever you like.
...So?
Caller being at 1 loyalty after putting a creature on the board isn't really relevant. The opponent still has to get an attacker through or use a card to get rid of him.
As a 1-of, sure, not bad, but Garruk PH is still a more desirable walker in a build like that. If you're playing a bunch of creatures, you can draw of him consistently and get more than just creatures. I can't count how many Jund games I've won off of drawing 5 from Thragtusk or just amassing a ton of 3/3's and flooding the board until they cave. I'm not sure Garruk 4.0 can provide that sort of amazing recovery potential.
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
You don't think Garruk, Caller of Beasts will end the game in short order? Not sure what you expected him to do, but it seems you are very hard to impress. Putting a creature on the board and then digging up another the next turn and the turn after that if unanswered will quickly win a game. He makes creature removal totally ineffective.
You don't need 30 Creatures in your deck for his +1 to be relevant. It digs 5 cards deep. That's a great chance to hit one or two creatures even if you only play 20 creatures. Not sure why people think he needs to give you 5 cards to be worth it. After putting a creature in play, Garruk giving you one creature per turn would be a fine deal.
I wish Primal Hunter had been reprinted just one more time. I hope to see him in standard again.
That said, I think that Caller of Beasts will do fine in standard. There's no doubt in my mind that he'll see play. He's a good card.
Sure, Primal Hunter is definitely the better all around card, and is much less of a build around me card. You could never put Caller into the Jund decks for instance. That said, what is better: draw 5 random and lose a PW, or draw 2-3 creatures and still have a PW that will draw you 2-3 creatures next turn? Honestly, I don't know the answer to that question, and I think it's very close. Hunter cost one less mana is relevant, and having 2 very good abilities also helps, whereas Caller really only has one ability.
TL;DR - Hunter is definitely better, but there is a lot of room to be worse than Hunter and still be pretty good.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
3 Boros Reckoner
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Garruk, Caller of Beasts
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Restoration Angel
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Angel of Serenity
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Farseek
4 Searing Spear
3 Clifftop Retreat
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Slayers' Stronghold
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
(8 Lands below need replaced due to rotation)
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Rootbound Crag
The deck starts out being able to start ramping a little or dropping some value creatures depending on the match-up. Eventually the board state will likely stall and that's when Garruk will be able to come in and just start doing it's thing fetching up more creatures and after going +3 you can turn those creatures into whatever you need.
I am having genuine trouble understanding exactly why people think he's bad—I mean, I've seen the arguments, but they just don't make any sense.
Anyway, if any of you crack some and think it's only worth $5, I will GLADLY buy them from you at that price.
WotC, please hire me already.
"The set releases for fall 2015 (Blood, Sweat and Tears) and fall 2016 (Lock, Stock and Barrel). One or both of those 2 blocks (I'm betting) are going to contain either Fetch reprints or (more likely) Filter reprints. Filter lands still need a reprint. They are getting pretty high up there and it's been longer than ZEN so it makes a little more sense that Filter lands would see print earlier that fetches." - posted 03/22/2014 proved incorrect about filters coming earlier than fetches, still pending on filters in Origins block.
A comic about the world's most addictive game, Magic: The Gathering.
You say that like Garruk Relentless is bad, lol.
He is the 'worst' Garruk (worse than Primal Hunter or Wildspeaker), but he's still a great planeswalker, which is a testament to how awesome Garruk is. Really, he didn't need to get any more powerful. If this Garruk had been better than Primal Hunter, he'd be ridiculous.
My only issues is that he costs 6 and he doesn't have abilities to defend himself well. But he could be nuts if he has the right cards in the deck.
4 arbor elf
3 deathrite shaman
4 elvish visionary
4 somberwald sage
4 elvish archdruid
4 master biomancer
4 craterhoof behemoth
2 prime speaker zegana
4 tracker's instincts
4 breeding pool
4 overgrown tomb
3 hinterland harbor
4 cavern of souls
2 woodland cemetery
3 forest
2 mutavault
the goal, obviously, is to use the acceleration and card draw to power out a lethal craterhoof behemoth. garruk seems to fit right in, 33 creatures means his +1 will tow a heavy load. the -3 is where he makes his living, dropping craterhoofs at least 2 turns before it would normally be due.
prime speaker zegana is a sick drop from garruk's -3, putting cards into your hand and forcing your opponent to deal with multiple threats.
biomancer is a kind of bridge between early and mid-game; early on his 2/4 body stands tall while later on turning 1/1s into considerable threats. gives the deck a decent amount of reach, and the tribal relevance is much appreciated.
tracker's instincts fills an interesting role, digging deeper for the big finish, generating a little card advantage, and turning on deathrite shaman.
this list actually looks pretty good so far, i am excited to see what else m14 has to offer.
There is buried treasure everywhere...in a graveyard.
Perhaps Soul of the Harvest has a place in an "Elfball" deck like this. And Blue can be added for Beck.
So my first impression: the new Garruk will be fun to fool around with.
Turn: Drop Garruk, -3 to drop a random fatty (Thragtusk).
Next turn: +1 Garruk, dig five deep and snagging even one or two cards, play another random fatty (Thragtusk #2).
Now, let's look at this WITHOUT Garruk:
Turn: Drop Thragtusk.
Next turn: Drop another Thragtusk.
I mean, the cases are the same, except the one WITH Garruk nets you amazing card advantage for absolutely no tempo loss. And, occasionally, you'll have turns where you can play an extra creature.
WotC, please hire me already.
IMHO this card is a real stinker.
Drawing 2-3 cards and gaining life isn't doing much? Guess I should sell my Sphinx's Revelations.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!