*LAST THING that I'm going to say to you whiners about Hexproof: If GoST and Sigarda were DOMINATING Standard and Modern, which they aren't, then you might have a point.
Subsequently, you don't. Stop crying.
First mistake: nobody's crying. Second mistake: standard isn't the only format that exists.
I think it will have positive and negative implications, however, the biggest downside is now Sigarda voltron is really, really hard to stop.
Well, the downside of running a hard to stop deck in Commander is that eventually it can be hard to find anyone to play against. We'll have to see after the dust settles, but a card can always be banned/banned as commander if anything gets out of hand.
While I can see that both players controlling a legendary creature makes no sense, can we all agree that killing legends with clones makes even less sense? From a flavor perspective that is the whole point of a clone. See how his artwork has two of the same guy? That's him copying another person, there is no reason why that person would explode.
I'm much more comfortable with the idea that I summon my Sigarda from a different time period than you summon yours from (even if only by a few seconds) thus allowing us to each have her on the battlefield, than I am explaining why an illusory image that looks like Thrun makes him cry out and pop like a salted slug.
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Wow, this is a huge change... Honestly the way I see it though, this is great for everything but EDH where legendary interactions are a central part of the game, but I don't think that will be an issue as wizards doesn't dictate EDH rules. The guys that do will figure out what works best. As far as hexproof legendaries in standard/other constructed formats getting a "huge power boost" from this, there's plenty of other ways to deal with these guys than just playing a clone.
While I can see that both players controlling a legendary creature makes no sense, can we all agree that killing legends with clones makes even less sense? From a flavor perspective that is the whole point of a clone. See how his artwork has two of the same guy? That's him copying another person, there is no reason why that person would explode.
I'm much more comfortable with the idea that I summon my Sigarda from a different time period than you summon yours from (even if only by a few seconds) thus allowing us to each have her on the battlefield, than I am explaining why an illusory image that looks like Thrun makes him cry out and pop like a salted slug.
I've read/watched stories where people go mad if they see a copy of themselves. They end up killing each other or they go crazy to the point of not functioning. By that method it makes sense why legendaries would cancel out. They are legendary due to being a very specific being. Unlike a soldier or beast that just sees the clone as one of the many others.
Well besides the fact that Thrun thinks he is the last troll on top of what else I posted here...
On the matter of the Planeswalker uniqueness rule: Imagine in five years, when there's now five or six or seven versions of the Lorwyn 5 running around. Somewhere, eventually two players will have decks loaded with PWs. Under the old rules, they would eventually get in to a long war of trying to stick a Garruk or Ajani. It's important to remember that the game has a future, and if nobody can play one of the twenty Jaces then it's not going to be tremendously fun for everybody involved.
On the matter of the Planeswalker uniqueness rule: Imagine in five years, when there's now five or six or seven versions of the Lorwyn 5 running around. Somewhere, eventually two players will have decks loaded with PWs. Under the old rules, they would eventually get in to a long war of trying to stick a Garruk or Ajani. It's important to remember that the game has a future, and if nobody can play one of the twenty Jaces then it's not going to be tremendously fun for everybody involved.
What is the difference between this an say someone with a storm deck playing against a Death & Taxes style deck that includes stuff like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Ethersworn Canonist? There is always going to be "bad match ups" and we haven't seen any rule bending for those situations.
my whole thing is, if wizards supposedly tries to balance this game, dont they balance legends and planeswalkers around having the legendary rule? what does it honestly say about balance if they can just take a rule away and be okay with it?
the sky isnt falling, but this change seems stupid imo. it also takes away a lot of counter play and decisions caused by the legend rule. also makes games with jitte simply about who draws the jitte 1st!, same with legendaries such as geist, and im sure it applies to cards like jtms too. just seems like a sloppy change to me.
The thing I am concerned the most about is that WOTC's modern banning frenzy might be pushed even further with things like Mox Opal being deemed 'too powerful'.
It's sad how unreasonable their 'tenets' for the format are. Modern would be better off with Lauer and friends banning stuff at random :/
You hit on another issue that hasn't been talked about to much; sanctioned formats and the bannings that may come from this change. I think most people can agree the last thing Modern needs is more multiple bannings. Legacy and Vintage already have borderline broken plays as is, and this change probably will lead to some bannings. These events could lead to even stronger backlash then what is already happening with this rule.
To people using Geist, Sigarda, Jitte, and other powerful legendary cards to justify the old rule... You're missing the point. Having answers to overpowered cards like those isn't worth the feel-bad moment when two players cancel each other's legends out, or when one player gets to use his planeswalker first and the other player gets no benefit. Zooming in on individual cards isn't fair to the rest of the very more likely scenarios where this comes up.
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You hit on another issue that hasn't been talked about to much; sanctioned formats and the bannings that may come from this change. I think most people can agree the last thing Modern needs is more multiple bannings. Legacy and Vintage already have borderline broken plays as is, and this change probably will lead to some bannings. These events could lead to even stronger backlash then what is already happening with this rule.
Mox opal to me is the big one now. It was perfectly fine as it was, and legendary was there explicitly to balance it. Now it functions in unintended ways and could lead to the banning and restriction of a card that was totally balanced before.
Modern and Legacy affinity will be able to safely play 4. It is card disadvantage but it is also basically a 1 mana ritual
Legacy Beltcher variants and storm can use them in some situations at 1 mana rituals, which is not at all what they were intended for.
In vintage it has all sorts of ramifications. Shops is already strong, now its better because its academy cannot get legended away and it can chain opening hand opals if needed.
They were balanced by cancelling out your own so you can only have one in play, not around the possibility that your opponent will cancel yours out with theirs. If a format is such that the main way to remove a card is to play the one you have in your deck, balancing of the card has already failed. I don't believe cards have ever been balanced around the possibility of clone-removal.
Like what? When was removing your opponent's thing by legending it ever not obviously the correct play?
Yeah, that part of the old rule sucked. You were talking about the old rule, right?
Oh, NVM. Continue.
how can you say cards were not balanced around clones and opponents with the same card? do you seriously think for X amount of years they never fathomed the idea of people cloning legends to kill them, or people playing a same named legend card to kill them? OF COURSE they were balanced around that. if they werent, then wotc has a HORRIBLE testing team.
its counter play, because and adds decision trees because you can remove their legends with another spell, or play your own to cancel them. and you dont get games where its like turn 3 geist, oh i went 1st, looks like i win, because i out tempo you!(please dont tell me i have to make this more clear for you because you come up with "well you can just block their geist with yours")
how did you possibly come up that i was talking about the old rule?
im curious, how long have you been playing magic? you just wreak of new player.
I wonder if a point could be made that a better (although potentially more nerve-wracking) adjustment would be to reverse the original rule. That is, the original legend/planeswalker is buried (or at least shuffled back into its owner's library), and the NEW one sticks around.
But I, too, wonder why everything needs to be pure upside. I thought those attracted to this game were more cerebral than frenetic...
To people using Geist, Sigarda, Jitte, and other powerful legendary cards to justify the old rule... You're missing the point. Having answers to overpowered cards like those isn't worth the feel-bad moment when two players cancel each other's legends out, or when one player gets to use his planeswalker first and the other player gets no benefit. Zooming in on individual cards isn't fair to the rest of the very more likely scenarios where this comes up.
Yeah, gotta remove any sort of drawback from the game so that it's simply "play creature, turn guys sideways, pass turn" with no interaction. You might as well be playing solitaire after this change. Just throw crap down willy-nilly without even having to think, yay!
Mox opal to me is the big one now. It was perfectly fine as it was, and legendary was there explicitly to balance it. Now it functions in unintended ways and could lead to the banning and restriction of a card that was totally balanced before.
Modern and Legacy affinity will be able to safely play 4. It is card disadvantage but it is also basically a 1 mana ritual
Legacy Beltcher variants and storm can use them in some situations at 1 mana rituals, which is not at all what they were intended for.
In vintage it has all sorts of ramifications. Shops is already strong, now its better because its academy cannot get legended away and it can chain opening hand opals if needed.
Kuldotha Red in Modern could come back strong too. Hands with multiple Mox Opal were usually mulligans... not anymore.
The same can be said of Gaea's Cradle in Legacy. Now not only can you abuse it with Crop Rotation but also if you are holding multiples.
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
While I can see that both players controlling a legendary creature makes no sense,
It doesn't? I can play both versions of ashling at the same time and nothing happens, as well as Nicol bolas and his PW self, and Iname in all three forms, Karona, phague, Akroma, Jeska, and both kamhals, and the list goes on. They are simply the same character pulled from different moments in the timeline, and they aren't exploding because of it.
If i can summon a legendary creature that is effectively dead in the current multiverse timeline (Tsabo Tavoc) it must mean i'm pulling it from SOMEWHERE in the timeline.
Why can't me and my opponent pull the same creature from similar timelines?
The legendary rule will always be a flavor nightmare because the mechanics of summoning can't really be translated from gameplay to flavor. You have to settle with something.
This is a better approach than the previous incarnation.
Yeah, gotta remove any sort of drawback from the game so that it's simply "play creature, turn guys sideways, pass turn" with no interaction. You might as well be playing solitaire after this change. Just throw crap down willy-nilly without even having to think, yay!
pretty much this.
older pros already dwarf newer pros(people like kai,finkel,maher,etc who dont even play much anymore and still keep up and surpass these "new age pros", and then the older active pros like kibler and nassiff)
i'd just hate to see the quality of magic players 20 years from now if they continue down this road of herp derp.
So I wonder how boring it must be to have multiple Avacyns on the battlefield... *sigh*
I am not looking forward to those board states :/
Avacyn is going to be the new "everyone clones this to get their own copy" creature and then we can sit around and wait for turns and turns while no one can do anything.
I'm sorry, but when people start out with questions such as "No. How am I going to deal with Sigarda now", that is in fact lazy. They aren't looking for a solution. Instead the course of action is to complain.
Seriously, stop for a second and read Sigarda. She is a hexproof, edict-proof (so no Renounce/Devour Flesh fun), 5/5 flying beatstick. And now she is clone-proof too. The list of things that deal with her is VERY narrow. Yes, Damnation/Wrath of God/Supreme Verdict exist. For the umpteenth time, not every deck is in those colors. Of course there are answers to Sigarda. In Standard, for example, we had 7 or 8 (lol). Now they got rid of Clone, Evil Twin and Progenitor Mimic as answers. All of a sudden she really is a lot tougher to deal with.
To make it more clear, this is coming from someone who plays GWx midrange mostly, and I've had people ragequit against my post-SB Sigardas too many times. Because once you cast a Cavern-fueled Sigarda against some decks, there really isn't anything that can be done about it. The one sweeper that works all the time, Mutilate, is very narrow and way too restrictive to deck construction. For Supreme Verdict, there's Boros Charm, which I usually bring in against control too.
Yes big hexproof legends should be resistant, but some examples are just ridiculous. Turn 2-3 Geist, untap, cast 3 auras on top of it and swing is something that, at least game 1, lots of decks just can't. deal. with. But running Clone and Evil Twin in your Bant/Esper/URW/Junk deck has been a solution, but not anymore.
Mechanically, using Clone effects to deal with resistant legends has been a big deal and a relevant part of the game, at least for narrower formats like Standard. Some hexproof legends have been pushed very high, which was only narrowly possible because Clone effects was a viable answer to them. Not anymore, and this IS a big deal. It's not lazyness. I hate it when people assume that players that dislike some new change in Magic are either lazy or stupid. You what is lazy? Not coming up with better arguments than that.
And like someone pointed out in this thread, is not like we are getting rid of one flavor issue (the legends killing each other paradox) without raising another flavor issue, which is both players being able to swing at each other with their Ruric Thars.
So, they switched one flavor issue for another, and raised a mechanical issue. This is not a good trade for me, and for many other players. If some of you think it is an ok change, that is fine, everyone can have their own opinion. Just don't assume everyone else's opinion is lazy/stupid.
And we are missing the point. All those articles and explanations cover the real issue: new players were casting 2nd copies of their legends, seeing they both die, and got very sad/pissed about it. This new change has ONE main purpose: to have new players have even less things to pay attention to. The new Slivers mechanic is the same. "Here, now your cards don't help your opponent". "Here, if you mess up and cast 2 legends, we let you keep one copy, don't be sad".
To finish, I'm sure Theros is going to be legend heavy and bring something that is only possible (or better) with the new rule, which again brings me back to why didn't they change it with Theros? This keeps us from having to deal with even more resilient Geists and Sigardas for 4 months, and we would see RIGHT AWAY the new cards that benefit from the new rule and understand/accept it better.
First mistake: nobody's crying. Second mistake: standard isn't the only format that exists.
Well, the downside of running a hard to stop deck in Commander is that eventually it can be hard to find anyone to play against. We'll have to see after the dust settles, but a card can always be banned/banned as commander if anything gets out of hand.
I'm much more comfortable with the idea that I summon my Sigarda from a different time period than you summon yours from (even if only by a few seconds) thus allowing us to each have her on the battlefield, than I am explaining why an illusory image that looks like Thrun makes him cry out and pop like a salted slug.
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New Turbo Fog/Bant Control deck that wins off of Psychic Spiral?
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
I maybe just changed my mind on the new rules. Maybe.
I've read/watched stories where people go mad if they see a copy of themselves. They end up killing each other or they go crazy to the point of not functioning. By that method it makes sense why legendaries would cancel out. They are legendary due to being a very specific being. Unlike a soldier or beast that just sees the clone as one of the many others.
Well besides the fact that Thrun thinks he is the last troll on top of what else I posted here...
Yeah, there is some fun stuff to be bought for this rule change.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
What is the difference between this an say someone with a storm deck playing against a Death & Taxes style deck that includes stuff like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Ethersworn Canonist? There is always going to be "bad match ups" and we haven't seen any rule bending for those situations.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
Flavor.
I still have mixed emotions with this rule; but I'm already seeing angry mobs forming on the horizon.
Sakashima ignores the legend rule by keeping its original name. It says so right on the card.
the sky isnt falling, but this change seems stupid imo. it also takes away a lot of counter play and decisions caused by the legend rule. also makes games with jitte simply about who draws the jitte 1st!, same with legendaries such as geist, and im sure it applies to cards like jtms too. just seems like a sloppy change to me.
You hit on another issue that hasn't been talked about to much; sanctioned formats and the bannings that may come from this change. I think most people can agree the last thing Modern needs is more multiple bannings. Legacy and Vintage already have borderline broken plays as is, and this change probably will lead to some bannings. These events could lead to even stronger backlash then what is already happening with this rule.
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
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Favorite card quotes:
[card]Pinpoint Avalanche
[/card]"Some solve problems by thinking and talking. Others use rocks." --Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith
Fodder Cannon
Step 1: Find your cousin.
Step 2: Get your cousin in the cannon.
Step 3: Find another cousin.
Mox opal to me is the big one now. It was perfectly fine as it was, and legendary was there explicitly to balance it. Now it functions in unintended ways and could lead to the banning and restriction of a card that was totally balanced before.
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how can you say cards were not balanced around clones and opponents with the same card? do you seriously think for X amount of years they never fathomed the idea of people cloning legends to kill them, or people playing a same named legend card to kill them? OF COURSE they were balanced around that. if they werent, then wotc has a HORRIBLE testing team.
its counter play, because and adds decision trees because you can remove their legends with another spell, or play your own to cancel them. and you dont get games where its like turn 3 geist, oh i went 1st, looks like i win, because i out tempo you!(please dont tell me i have to make this more clear for you because you come up with "well you can just block their geist with yours")
how did you possibly come up that i was talking about the old rule?
im curious, how long have you been playing magic? you just wreak of new player.
But I, too, wonder why everything needs to be pure upside. I thought those attracted to this game were more cerebral than frenetic...
Yeah, gotta remove any sort of drawback from the game so that it's simply "play creature, turn guys sideways, pass turn" with no interaction. You might as well be playing solitaire after this change. Just throw crap down willy-nilly without even having to think, yay!
Kuldotha Red in Modern could come back strong too. Hands with multiple Mox Opal were usually mulligans... not anymore.
The same can be said of Gaea's Cradle in Legacy. Now not only can you abuse it with Crop Rotation but also if you are holding multiples.
It doesn't? I can play both versions of ashling at the same time and nothing happens, as well as Nicol bolas and his PW self, and Iname in all three forms, Karona, phague, Akroma, Jeska, and both kamhals, and the list goes on. They are simply the same character pulled from different moments in the timeline, and they aren't exploding because of it.
If i can summon a legendary creature that is effectively dead in the current multiverse timeline (Tsabo Tavoc) it must mean i'm pulling it from SOMEWHERE in the timeline.
Why can't me and my opponent pull the same creature from similar timelines?
The legendary rule will always be a flavor nightmare because the mechanics of summoning can't really be translated from gameplay to flavor. You have to settle with something.
This is a better approach than the previous incarnation.
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pretty much this.
older pros already dwarf newer pros(people like kai,finkel,maher,etc who dont even play much anymore and still keep up and surpass these "new age pros", and then the older active pros like kibler and nassiff)
i'd just hate to see the quality of magic players 20 years from now if they continue down this road of herp derp.
Yeah, I was able to see that. Thanks for pointing it out.
--
So I wonder how boring it must be to have multiple Avacyns on the battlefield... *sigh*
I am not looking forward to those board states :/
Avacyn is going to be the new "everyone clones this to get their own copy" creature and then we can sit around and wait for turns and turns while no one can do anything.
Seriously, stop for a second and read Sigarda. She is a hexproof, edict-proof (so no Renounce/Devour Flesh fun), 5/5 flying beatstick. And now she is clone-proof too. The list of things that deal with her is VERY narrow. Yes, Damnation/Wrath of God/Supreme Verdict exist. For the umpteenth time, not every deck is in those colors. Of course there are answers to Sigarda. In Standard, for example, we had 7 or 8 (lol). Now they got rid of Clone, Evil Twin and Progenitor Mimic as answers. All of a sudden she really is a lot tougher to deal with.
To make it more clear, this is coming from someone who plays GWx midrange mostly, and I've had people ragequit against my post-SB Sigardas too many times. Because once you cast a Cavern-fueled Sigarda against some decks, there really isn't anything that can be done about it. The one sweeper that works all the time, Mutilate, is very narrow and way too restrictive to deck construction. For Supreme Verdict, there's Boros Charm, which I usually bring in against control too.
Yes big hexproof legends should be resistant, but some examples are just ridiculous. Turn 2-3 Geist, untap, cast 3 auras on top of it and swing is something that, at least game 1, lots of decks just can't. deal. with. But running Clone and Evil Twin in your Bant/Esper/URW/Junk deck has been a solution, but not anymore.
Mechanically, using Clone effects to deal with resistant legends has been a big deal and a relevant part of the game, at least for narrower formats like Standard. Some hexproof legends have been pushed very high, which was only narrowly possible because Clone effects was a viable answer to them. Not anymore, and this IS a big deal. It's not lazyness. I hate it when people assume that players that dislike some new change in Magic are either lazy or stupid. You what is lazy? Not coming up with better arguments than that.
And like someone pointed out in this thread, is not like we are getting rid of one flavor issue (the legends killing each other paradox) without raising another flavor issue, which is both players being able to swing at each other with their Ruric Thars.
So, they switched one flavor issue for another, and raised a mechanical issue. This is not a good trade for me, and for many other players. If some of you think it is an ok change, that is fine, everyone can have their own opinion. Just don't assume everyone else's opinion is lazy/stupid.
And we are missing the point. All those articles and explanations cover the real issue: new players were casting 2nd copies of their legends, seeing they both die, and got very sad/pissed about it. This new change has ONE main purpose: to have new players have even less things to pay attention to. The new Slivers mechanic is the same. "Here, now your cards don't help your opponent". "Here, if you mess up and cast 2 legends, we let you keep one copy, don't be sad".
To finish, I'm sure Theros is going to be legend heavy and bring something that is only possible (or better) with the new rule, which again brings me back to why didn't they change it with Theros? This keeps us from having to deal with even more resilient Geists and Sigardas for 4 months, and we would see RIGHT AWAY the new cards that benefit from the new rule and understand/accept it better.