Shhhhh! Do you hear that? It's EDH players everywhere squeezing like little girls.
On a serious note I'm extremely disappointed in WotC. This changes the game completely. Also, is there a way to clone a legend you control and have it ETB under and opponents control? I'm just wondering if its possible to get two Thalia's out without your opponent actuall casting it.
Shhhhh! Do you hear that? It's EDH players everywhere squeezing like little girls.
I don't actually know what "squeezing like little girls" means but as someone that plays edh far more than other formats I'm disappointed in this change too.
Shhhhh! Do you hear that? It's EDH players everywhere squeezing like little girls.
On a serious note I'm extremely disappointed in WotC. This changes the game completely. Also, is there a way to clone a legend you control and have it ETB under and opponents control? I'm just wondering if its possible to get two Thalia's out without your opponent actuall casting it.
Im an edh player and i couldnt be more dejected. (Im a vorthos too, so Im doubly upset).
No profiling.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I fear I won't have much time to play Magic these days.
I get to watch worlds develop around me.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
On a serious note I'm extremely disappointed in WotC. This changes the game completely.
The hell it does. It's the same thing over and over - WotC refines the rules, makes them more streamlined, cutting a troublesome knot or two, and someone imagines that Magic is practically rebooted. Consider what a low, low percentage of duels will actually be affected by these rules. It's pretty damn insignificant when you think about it that way.
We survived the changes to regenerate, we survived the changes to mulliganing. In fact, we survived the changes to the way the stack works - that is the closest thing we've come to "changing the game completely", and even that passed smoothly once people stopped whining.
The hell it does. It's the same thing over and over - WotC refines the rules, makes them more streamlined, cutting a troublesome knot or two, and someone imagines that Magic is practically rebooted. Consider what a low, low percentage of duels will actually be affected by these rules. It's pretty damn insignificant when you think about it that way.
No. It will not affect a low percentage of games. Cloning legends happens in at least half of the edh games I play. This rule will have effects all the time.
Squealing* sorry. And why wouldn't this make edh players happy? I'm just glad edh isn't as competitive as other formats otherwise damn near everyone would play the same decks. At the very least it would narrow the field. Still wondering about this... Also, is there a way to clone a legend you control and have it ETB under and opponents control? I'm just wondering if its possible to get two Thalia's out without your opponent actuall casting it.
Someone is CLEARLY unbiased. I wonder if geist and thrun were designed with these new rules in mind.
You still can't play 2 legends. I would say clones no longer being a kill spell is a negative for clones, as it gives them far less options. Multiple legends are STILL dead in hand, so no really sure how that is a pro. Evil twin can no longer get rid of geist, so you can toss that into the negative. Legend mirrors are compltetely unflavorful. Its a legend, there should only be one.
Wow, you're taking a very condesending tone here. You're referring to a 20 year rule as a "glitch"? This isn't a newly released bethesda game, untried and untested, its a 20 year old TCG. This isn't a "patch", its a rule change, something which actually does affect card strength, deck building, and play. It's also another stone in the string of steps increasing creature power levels
It's a rules change that fixes a rules abuse that the very developers who thought up, tested, and implemented the change stated were contrary to the intention of the rule. And the current legend rule is acually only about 10 years old. Prior to that there was a different legend rule, and apparently that one didn't work the way they wanted either. It's almost like they are iterating on the rules, gradually improving them as the design technology allows. You know, like a patch.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
You sure are the expert on mind reading. Thanks for clearing that up for me and Boreez
Regardless of whether someone is in favor of this rules change, calling it insignificant is wrong.
This is an insignificant change by definition. In the vast majority of games, it will not come up. Just because it comes up in your local metagame if one specific format does not mean it's a common occurrence, it just means that YOU will have to learn a new way to play the game. If that's too hard for YOU, you should work on that yourself, and stop blaming the developers for YOUR problems.
This seems like an absolutely asinine rule change. What's the point in watering down the game? Let's forget about the fact some legendary creatures absolutely need to be checked by clones. WoTC is purposely dumbing down the game, giving us less options, neutralizing a perfectly fine strategy. What the **** are they thinking?
It's **** like this that makes me question the longevity of this game. Way to drop the ball WotC.
Anyway, clones don't really get that much worse. Now, when my opponent Phantasmal Images my Geist, they will actually have a Geist, which scares me a lot more than me not having a Geist. With the current rule, I lose my Geist and there are still 3 more in my deck, not to mention all of the other ways I have to damage their life total. Under the new rule, they have a Geist, and not a single card in my deck can answer that (well... Two cards in my sideboard, I guess).
Seriously, ACTUALLY cloning your opponent's legend is often going to be much better than just Hero's Demising it. And if you really need to just kill them both... Leave your copy open to block theirs. If anything, clones kinda gain more functionality from this change.
Also, Thrun is no harder to remove under the new rules than Troll Ascetic once he hits the board, and that card never really caused problems.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Anyway, clones don't really get that much worse. Now, when my opponent Phantasmal Images my Geist, they will actually have a Geist, which scares me a lot more than me not having a Geist. With the current rule, I lose my Geist and there are still 3 more in my deck, not to mention all of the other ways I have to damage their life total. Under the new rule, they have a Geist, and not a single card in my deck can answer that (well... Two cards in my sideboard, I guess).
Seriously, ACTUALLY cloning your opponent's legend is often going to be much better than just Hero's Demising it. And if you really need to just kill them both... Leave your copy open to block theirs. If anything, clones kinda gain more functionality from this change.
Also, Thrun is no harder to remove under the new rules than Troll Ascetic once he hits the board, and that card never really caused problems.
If troll ascetic was a 4/4 and also couldn't be countered it would probably cause more problems
This seems like an absolutely asinine rule change. What's the point in watering down the game? Let's forget about the fact some legendary creatures absolutely need to be checked by clones. WoTC is purposely dumbing down the game, giving us less options, neutralizing a perfectly fine strategy. What the **** are they thinking?
It's **** like this that makes me question the longevity of this game. Way to drop the ball WotC.
*sigh*
This change doesn't dumb down the game in any way. The new rule is no more or less complicated than the old one. We lose all of one possible interaction (playing a legend or planeswalker to kill your opponent's copy of the same card.) two if you want to count doing it with a clone as a different interaction. We gain a lot more potential interactions, such as playing another copy of your opponent's legend or walker to outrace or block theirs. Doing the same with a clone. Playing a second copy of your own legend or walker as an effective blink spell. And the number of potential new interactions now that both players can both control a planeswalker with the same subtype is innumerable. This change does a lot of things (such as making hard to kill legends even harder to kill, and causing some serious wtf flavor moments). Dumbing down the game is not one of them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
If troll ascetic was a 4/4 and also couldn't be countered it would probably cause more problems
Not if it cost 2GG. A 4/4 that does nothing but not die is really not that difficult to outrace. Especially when you can clone your own copy for a measely 1U. Clones still answer legends, they just do it in a different way. and there's alwYs Wrath, Damnation, Terminus, Mutilate, etc. There are plenty of answers out there, this change actually has a very minimal impact on that front.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
I don't mind the clone aspect that atleast make sense now.
But having the same Legendary creature out for both players seems slightly bad flavor wise. But the creature dying if 2 are out at the same time also didn't really make sense. Besides creatures kinda plentiful they are manifestations of spells controlled by the planeswalkers. So what if 2 planeswalkers managed to learn how to summon Squee(then again that guy keeps coming back even if he gets killed of by another of himself.
The only thing I am really annoyed at is the planeswalker change. Planeswalkers(and don't forget players are planeswalkers too) are suppose to be loyal or partners helping you out and will leave your service if you abuse -1 then to much or get stronger when you encourage then +1
My friend calls upon jace to help him ok that fine but then I should be able to call upon jace to. Which instead of making both our jaces leave the field jace should just switch sides kinda like "screw you his offer is better"
Want to see other duel decks I made ? Check out my Blog ! Feel free to post advice or give topics for me to make duel decks out of. Check out the Theros Block Planeswalker Theme Duel Decks Elspeth, Xenagos, Ashok, Kiora, Ajani
I can live with these rules changes. But I am still confused on the land rule changes. New legend rule may be a good thing but could be confusing for a while, the new sideboard that makes me uneasy. Our old/current sideboard is already in good structure, so what gives?
It's a damn shame that this "patch" violates one of the most prominent design phillsophies. Answers need to be cheaper than threats. Avacyn dies to PtE. Creatures like Geist can only be answered effectively with wipes (which cost the same if not more) and Thrun requires a special type of board wipe not legal in Modern or Mutilate (which is more expensive).
Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of the change but it's still possible to deal with Thrun. It's GoST that should worry everyone since he's cheaper and hits harder.
I can live with these rules changes. But I am still confused on the land rule changes. New legend rule may be a good thing but could be confusing for a while, the new sideboard that makes me uneasy. Our old/current sideboard is already in good structure, so what gives?
The new sideboard changes removes game losses due to someone forgetting to take out a card during sideboarding and starting play with a 61 card deck.
I can live with these rules changes. But I am still confused on the land rule changes. New legend rule may be a good thing but could be confusing for a while, the new sideboard that makes me uneasy. Our old/current sideboard is already in good structure, so what gives?
The land changes are less complicated than the article makes them sound. Under the old rules (or rather, the current ones), you only ever got one "land drop" per turn. That is to say, the rules allowed you to take a special action to put a land from your hand into play once per turn, and only once per turn. Cards like Exploration didn't actually give you more "land drops", you could still only take that special action once per turn. What they did was give you a different way to put lands from your hand into play. So you could play one land with your "land drop" and another with Exploration's ability. Of course, under these rules you have to announce when you play a land if you are playing it as your one land for the turn, or if you are playing it with Exploration's ability. In addition, you could use Exploration's ability to play a land, and then blink Exploration (or return it to your hand and cast it again, or whatever) and then use it's ability again.
Now, these new rules change it so that you can't do that. Now, instead of Exploration's ability granting you a different way to put a land into play other than your "land drop" it actually just grants you another "land drop" each turn as long as it's in play. So now if you play one land with your normal "land drop", then play another with the "land drop" that Exploration gives you, and then blink Exploration, you still only have two "land drops" (one from the rules and one from Exploration) and since you've already played two lands, you can't play any more this turn.
Cards that put lands directly into play, such as Rampant Growth, and cards that allow you to play cards but do not grant you a way to play additional lands, such as Djinn of Wishes are not affected by this change. The only cards that are actually affected are ones with the text "you may play [number] additional land[s]". Exploration, Explore, Oracle of Mul Daya, Azusa, lost but Seeking, Gaea's Touch, Journey of Discovery, Fastbond, Summer Bloom, and Urban Evolution (apologies if I missed any). Now instead of letting you put lands into play from your hand with those cards abilities, those cards give you additional uses of the special action that you normally only get once per turn to put a land into play from your hand.
EDIT:
The funny thing is, the new rule for playing additional lands is actually the way I thought it always worked. I'm guessing that's the case for a lot of people, which is why this change is so confusing. Not to mention them using a card that isn't affected by the change as an example of how the new rules work... That was a very odd choice.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
I think this is a move toward making 1 v 1 commander a sanctioned format, I really think mirror matches not being viable was the main stumbling block towards that happening
I dont get all the haterate around the new rules....
I for one think this wil make alot more fun, I realy didnt like the 'I clone your thing, it dies now' kinda play that was to much happening all over, specialy in EDH it happens so often its just not fun anymore....
Edh you can house rule to be whatever the hell you want, like how it came to exist at all. Rules changes with edh in mind need to keep to themselves and not wreck up all the other formats.
Edh you can house rule to be whatever the hell you want, like how it came to exist at all. Rules changes with edh in mind need to keep to themselves and not wreck up all the other formats.
This change was definitely intended to affect more than just EDH.
Two of the same person cannot occupy trhe same space.
My H/W list
Then how was the second even cast if one already existed?
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
You are also not answering the question. Why do BOTH die?
Feel free to tell me yours!
On a serious note I'm extremely disappointed in WotC. This changes the game completely. Also, is there a way to clone a legend you control and have it ETB under and opponents control? I'm just wondering if its possible to get two Thalia's out without your opponent actuall casting it.
I don't actually know what "squeezing like little girls" means but as someone that plays edh far more than other formats I'm disappointed in this change too.
Im an edh player and i couldnt be more dejected. (Im a vorthos too, so Im doubly upset).
No profiling.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
The hell it does. It's the same thing over and over - WotC refines the rules, makes them more streamlined, cutting a troublesome knot or two, and someone imagines that Magic is practically rebooted. Consider what a low, low percentage of duels will actually be affected by these rules. It's pretty damn insignificant when you think about it that way.
We survived the changes to regenerate, we survived the changes to mulliganing. In fact, we survived the changes to the way the stack works - that is the closest thing we've come to "changing the game completely", and even that passed smoothly once people stopped whining.
No. It will not affect a low percentage of games. Cloning legends happens in at least half of the edh games I play. This rule will have effects all the time.
It's a rules change that fixes a rules abuse that the very developers who thought up, tested, and implemented the change stated were contrary to the intention of the rule. And the current legend rule is acually only about 10 years old. Prior to that there was a different legend rule, and apparently that one didn't work the way they wanted either. It's almost like they are iterating on the rules, gradually improving them as the design technology allows. You know, like a patch.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
You sure are the expert on mind reading. Thanks for clearing that up for me and Boreez
Regardless of whether someone is in favor of this rules change, calling it insignificant is wrong.
This is an insignificant change by definition. In the vast majority of games, it will not come up. Just because it comes up in your local metagame if one specific format does not mean it's a common occurrence, it just means that YOU will have to learn a new way to play the game. If that's too hard for YOU, you should work on that yourself, and stop blaming the developers for YOUR problems.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
It's **** like this that makes me question the longevity of this game. Way to drop the ball WotC.
Seriously, ACTUALLY cloning your opponent's legend is often going to be much better than just Hero's Demising it. And if you really need to just kill them both... Leave your copy open to block theirs. If anything, clones kinda gain more functionality from this change.
Also, Thrun is no harder to remove under the new rules than Troll Ascetic once he hits the board, and that card never really caused problems.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
If troll ascetic was a 4/4 and also couldn't be countered it would probably cause more problems
*sigh*
This change doesn't dumb down the game in any way. The new rule is no more or less complicated than the old one. We lose all of one possible interaction (playing a legend or planeswalker to kill your opponent's copy of the same card.) two if you want to count doing it with a clone as a different interaction. We gain a lot more potential interactions, such as playing another copy of your opponent's legend or walker to outrace or block theirs. Doing the same with a clone. Playing a second copy of your own legend or walker as an effective blink spell. And the number of potential new interactions now that both players can both control a planeswalker with the same subtype is innumerable. This change does a lot of things (such as making hard to kill legends even harder to kill, and causing some serious wtf flavor moments). Dumbing down the game is not one of them.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
Not if it cost 2GG. A 4/4 that does nothing but not die is really not that difficult to outrace. Especially when you can clone your own copy for a measely 1U. Clones still answer legends, they just do it in a different way. and there's alwYs Wrath, Damnation, Terminus, Mutilate, etc. There are plenty of answers out there, this change actually has a very minimal impact on that front.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
But having the same Legendary creature out for both players seems slightly bad flavor wise. But the creature dying if 2 are out at the same time also didn't really make sense. Besides creatures kinda plentiful they are manifestations of spells controlled by the planeswalkers. So what if 2 planeswalkers managed to learn how to summon Squee(then again that guy keeps coming back even if he gets killed of by another of himself.
The only thing I am really annoyed at is the planeswalker change. Planeswalkers(and don't forget players are planeswalkers too) are suppose to be loyal or partners helping you out and will leave your service if you abuse -1 then to much or get stronger when you encourage then +1
My friend calls upon jace to help him ok that fine but then I should be able to call upon jace to. Which instead of making both our jaces leave the field jace should just switch sides kinda like "screw you his offer is better"
Decks used- GGarruk vs LilianaB, WElsepth vs TezzeretU, WGKnights vs DragonsR
WGRAjani vs BolasRUB, WUVenser vs KothR, RUIzzet vs GolgariGB.
WBSorin vs TibaltBR, WRHeros vs Monsters RG
Want to see other duel decks I made ? Check out my Blog ! Feel free to post advice or give topics for me to make duel decks out of. Check out the Theros Block Planeswalker Theme Duel Decks Elspeth, Xenagos, Ashok, Kiora, Ajani
Why not?
Wrath of God, Damnation, Black Sun's Zenith, Hallowed Burial, Terminus, edict like effects (Cruel Edict), Final Judgment, Evacuation, Mindbreak Trap. The real losers against Thrun are red and green themselves. The only way for red to deal with him is by playing Everlasting Torment with global damage or chump blockers.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favor of the change but it's still possible to deal with Thrun. It's GoST that should worry everyone since he's cheaper and hits harder.
The new sideboard changes removes game losses due to someone forgetting to take out a card during sideboarding and starting play with a 61 card deck.
The land changes are less complicated than the article makes them sound. Under the old rules (or rather, the current ones), you only ever got one "land drop" per turn. That is to say, the rules allowed you to take a special action to put a land from your hand into play once per turn, and only once per turn. Cards like Exploration didn't actually give you more "land drops", you could still only take that special action once per turn. What they did was give you a different way to put lands from your hand into play. So you could play one land with your "land drop" and another with Exploration's ability. Of course, under these rules you have to announce when you play a land if you are playing it as your one land for the turn, or if you are playing it with Exploration's ability. In addition, you could use Exploration's ability to play a land, and then blink Exploration (or return it to your hand and cast it again, or whatever) and then use it's ability again.
Now, these new rules change it so that you can't do that. Now, instead of Exploration's ability granting you a different way to put a land into play other than your "land drop" it actually just grants you another "land drop" each turn as long as it's in play. So now if you play one land with your normal "land drop", then play another with the "land drop" that Exploration gives you, and then blink Exploration, you still only have two "land drops" (one from the rules and one from Exploration) and since you've already played two lands, you can't play any more this turn.
Cards that put lands directly into play, such as Rampant Growth, and cards that allow you to play cards but do not grant you a way to play additional lands, such as Djinn of Wishes are not affected by this change. The only cards that are actually affected are ones with the text "you may play [number] additional land[s]". Exploration, Explore, Oracle of Mul Daya, Azusa, lost but Seeking, Gaea's Touch, Journey of Discovery, Fastbond, Summer Bloom, and Urban Evolution (apologies if I missed any). Now instead of letting you put lands into play from your hand with those cards abilities, those cards give you additional uses of the special action that you normally only get once per turn to put a land into play from your hand.
EDIT:
The funny thing is, the new rule for playing additional lands is actually the way I thought it always worked. I'm guessing that's the case for a lot of people, which is why this change is so confusing. Not to mention them using a card that isn't affected by the change as an example of how the new rules work... That was a very odd choice.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpgjnU7C3Aw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe7kkZixasc
Edh you can house rule to be whatever the hell you want, like how it came to exist at all. Rules changes with edh in mind need to keep to themselves and not wreck up all the other formats.
This change was definitely intended to affect more than just EDH.
Commander:
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
BR Olivia Voldaren
BRG Shattergang Brothers
GUR Riku of Two Reflections
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain