I think it's funny that in one thread everyone is wowed by pyromancer's CA engine but here everyone seems to think CA doesn't exist. Or that somehow BitWC isn't just as dependent on 1) a creature in the graveyard and 2) some way to do minimal damage to yourself. Otherwise you let your opponent choose when you get a creature and we can't have the opponent doing any of that, can we?
I would actually be fine to pay mana for an enchantment that reads "Opponents can't attack you", even if I had to give up the creatures in my yard. If your opponent wants to win, he'll have to damage you eventually, giving you creatures back. You could also say Voice of Resurgence is bad because your opponent choses when you get the token. Either choice does something you want. And many pros still consider it an extremely powerful card, maybe even the most powerful card in the block (or at least shortly after Revelation. On the other hand, Revenge needs a very specific deck to even do anything. And even then, you give your opponent a choice that can more easily be a "do nothing" for you.
I think it's funny that in one thread everyone is wowed by pyromancer's CA engine but here everyone seems to think CA doesn't exist. Or that somehow BitWC isn't just as dependent on 1) a creature in the graveyard and 2) some way to do minimal damage to yourself. Otherwise you let your opponent choose when you get a creature and we can't have the opponent doing any of that, can we?
BitWC is dependent on a dead guy in your yard and something with a life loss rider. In averagely long games, you probably have a dead(/countered/discarded) guy, and in Modern and beyond, your mana base already inflicts enough life loss (fetches/shocks/painlands/Horizon Canopy). Ergo, BitWC isn't dependent on much.
It's like how Deathrite Shaman is a reliable enough mana dork in all formats with fetchlands.
Sorry, your claim wasn't that it was bad because it is only used in very specific decks. By that criteria, any planeswalker is bad because they're only used in very specific decks. If all you can say is that RoN needs specific decks for it to be good, I agree with you, but that doesn't mean it's not a card worthy of a vote.
Furthermore, you reveal your narrow vision by naming only two decks that are relevant in your particular format RIGHT NOW. Not only does this ignore all other formats, it ignores every future deck ever possibly constructed in M:tG history.
I named those two decks because they were just the first two decks that came to mind. I don't even play modern so it doesn't really affect me in that regard. Also, I didn't say that Revenge being specific means it doesn't deserve a vote. I just wanted to say that the less narrow card deserve a vote more. Heck, if this wasn't an elimination between these two designs, I might even vote for Revenge. But in this situation, it isn't worthy of a vote in comaprison to BitWC.
Well it really depends just on how casual the game is getting played. If the decks are so slow they start playing their first spells in turn 5, then yes, someone might be able to have fun with a dedicated discard deck. Thing is, if we're talking that casual, there won't be a collection big enough to build a real discard deck, let alone enough copies of RoN to reliably see it early in the game. As such, I don't believe it would go on to be liked or played very much.
The guy whose discard deck is the two copies of Megrim, three Ravenous Rats, two Duress, four Mind Rot, the few splashy black rares he has, and a bunch of black commons and uncommons to fill it out to 60 cards loves his Megrim.
He doesn't care how consistently he gets it out early. He just cares that it makes his deck work way better and wins him games when he plays it and he'll trade for every single copy of it his friends open. He's not going to do it to improve the consistency of his deck, it's because he loves the card and wants more of it.
BitWC on the other hand is a far better card for casual, because it will generate value in almost every deck it is put in and can make for exciting situations all the time like "if you attack me now, I will get my cool fatty (which you had so much trouble getting rid of because we don't play good removal here) back to my hand and play it again".
You're not thinking like a casual player, you're thinking like an experienced player who's explaining things to a casual player.
Casual players consistently undervalue utility things like mana fixing. They don't care about phrases like "generates value in almost every deck it is put in". Something like Polluted Delta is better for more casual decks and generates much more value on average than Glimpse the Unthinkable. But that doesn't matter. Polluted Delta is the card they're going to be disappointed to find wasting their rare slot and happily trade away, while Glimpse is going to be the card that has a huge demand entirely through casual appeal.
Meh, BitWC was one of the cards I didn't like. It's not horrible or anything, but it's just ... dull. Revenge will at least go in my EDH, so hoping that one wins.
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Voted blood in the watercan though my favourite (Soulfeaster's Rising) went several round ago. At least with consuming contract gone we'll have one last round of voting needed.
Blood in a can will probably be overcosted to the point of unplayability though.
Imagine trying to beat a deck that has tusk+can going on.
Yeah, in that Standard a year from now when this is printed after two core sets and block rotations later. Thragtusk will be great then. That definitely proves it'll cost too much.
I hope Revenge of Necromancy wins simply because it is more unique. I mean, neither of them are good enough to see play probably, so why not go for the more interesting one.
We already have some cards similar to Blood in the Watering Can: Oversold Cemetery, Phyrexian Reclamation, or even Necromantic Thirst. They may be others that I am missing too. I know they are not exactly the same, my point is that they are similar and that there are no similar comparisons to RoN.
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MagicPeaces, my sediments exactly against Blood in the Watering Can. I don't like Revenge but at least it brings something new to the table. Watering Can is a dime a dozen and not even the greatest effect of it's kind with a wonky activation. That benefit isn't going to rattlesnake anyone from swinging on you. Choosing Watering Can is going to be a horrible waste of a YMTC.
Next time R&D pushes through a card like Emara, One With Nothing, Horobi, Death's Wail, Leveler etc. I hope I don't see anyone complaining who are voting for a bad card because it's unique. Nevermind that it's much easier to get a creature from the graveyard with BitWC than the few measly cards people are saying it's like and forgetting that Modern doesn't have a usable card with this effect at all, or that Revenge of Necromancy does nothing by itself and is being has to be defended every which way to try and even make it sound playable. When your only defense for voting for something because it's unique or because you can come up with some fringe use wherein it's worse than any card already available to a deck in every format, it should tell you something.
Let's be honest with ourselves for a moment while one of these cards is a safe pick then the others (bitwc) neither one has been through development yet, meaning that both these cards have a potential to look wildly different. So far (if memory serves) two of the YMTCs have been developed right out of viability in most constructed formats. Really we are betting on which card will development treat better, while I think BITWC is more likely to be developed less, that doesn't mean it won't blow up in our faces.
Blood in the Watering Can is just as bad, neither will see competitive play. Regrowth variants are much better and don't see play. You get the effect off immediately without restrictions, giving your opponent decisions has more often than not panned out badly for a card.
For the love of all that is true and just, I implore everybody to vote for Blood in the Watering Can. That card has the highest chance in being played in the most formats be it Standard Constructed, Limited, Cube, Casual 60 card decks, EDH and other broader multiplayer formats. Cards like Megrim and Geth's Grimoire have seen little to no use outside of casual 60 cards decks. History has shown these types of cards to be win-more. A vote for "Blood in the Watering Can" is a vote for a card the MOST amount of people can enjoy.
Don't worry! I assume Return of Necromancy made it to the finals mostly because it was pitted against a card that actually would have lost Ro8 if not for the DQ.
To me the real finals are over with Blood in the Watering Can winning over Consuming Contract - both cards having their own strong allure that could sway the vote one way or the other.
And which dark soul would choose the option that doesn't allow flavor text anyway?
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Planar Chaos was not a mistake neither was it random. You might want to look at it again.
[thread=239793][Game] Level Up - Creature[/thread]
Both are poor (by YMTC standards) but one is much more utility.
I am shocked Wizards put out such awful choices for YMTC. The only decent one I saw being of course the one they disqualified because they didn't do their background check first. It's unfortunate that the only thing I will remember about this one is how horrible the final choices were. I don't really want to have a whole community just make a junk bin rare, but that's what is happening, and it just kind of sucks.
Both of these cards are completely awful and will see no play in constructed decks. Both are completely unable at a cmc of 1B, and I expect both to cost even more than that.
There's a small chance of combo potential. Blood in the Watering has the potential to create a hard lock with something like Stonehorn Dignitary. Revenge of Necromancy + Whispering Madness / Wheel of Fortune / Burning Inquiry has been discussed. I think neither of these is remotely viable, but it's really the only way they'll do anything.
As far as potential goes, Return of Necromancy is a much better card, but you're just choosing between two ****ty cards- who cares what you end up with?
Eldritch Rites was really the only good card in this contest. I'm disappointed in the community. We could've made something great. Instead, we get this.
I don't think Blood Can is bad at all, I think it is a good card, but a contestant to win YMTC is a joke. It probably is going to be the best return creature from grave to hand made so far, but it has been done over and over and they never saw consistent competitive play.
I think it is a very appealing casual card that will see play in casual formats and be an enjoyable effect. I think the Spike type players see something in it to, a possibility for competitive play, but I am very much sure it won't see any real impact. Oversold Cemetary decks were MEH and they had cards galore that supported the graveyard strategy. Most of those cards are not legal in modern. Almost 99% positive Birthing Pod decks can't support the slots for more enchantments either, returning creatures to hand is nice, but you wan't to be searching for bombs w/ pod not return your mana dorks or kitchen finks.
Blood Water Can will probably win, both cards suck for YMTC standards, Mass Mummy & Contract were the only awesome cards and both are out of contention. My guess is this will cost 4-5 mana and still be playable. But lots of cards are playable and see no play.
Blood in the Watering Can is an Oldschool effect w/ an updated trigger for the current magic times, will it's grindy game effect be enough to make it to tournament tables?
... Probably not ...
I see many people don't even bother to read when BitWC activates. Now that you have done it, compare it to the modern legal cards that let you regularly pick a creature from the graveyard (no matter if it's opponent's one, or it is put onto the battlefield) and deduce it's possible mana cost. It will probably be at least some 3BB, and turn out 2-3 times more mana-expensive than RotN.
It's a pity that they won't be printed both though (as they were my top 2 choices from the beginning). I would especially like to see the usefulness of BitWC in a match against RotN, and those saying late game discard is useless that will pay 5 mana to:
a) return some lousy creatures from their graveyard, only to have them discarded in a moment, and give an opponent 2/2 zombie tokens
b) play a card that will do nothing most of the time cause it's activation would trigger a)
Why were these two cards your top picks? Mass Mummy and Contract are a crapton more interesting and so much better. I really am interested as to why either of these cards win out.
You don't want bombs with Pod, you want the combo. You need that finks for the lifegain half, and the mana dorks can pod into pieces. Melira into Finks getting back Melira? Returning a 1-drop so you can Pod into Murderous Redcap right away instead of Ranger of Eos?
Slots might be an issue yeah =)
I wrote bombs because while the combo is the main factor to look at when searching for creatures, you also play some bombs and answers to opponent strategies. Bombs was meant to be shorthand for the combination.
Blood is a tried-and-true ability, but let's face it. There are going to be PLENTY of more efficient ways to get creatures back.
Revenge is a unique ability that will be on a black enchantment and is practically screaming to make it into Golgari and Grixis EDH decks, and depending on the cost might be almost worth building around.
End point: if you really don't care and are just voting to vote, please PLEASE vote for Revenge and bring new abilities into Magic.
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Revenge of Necromancy has been popular the whole time because it is a great design that we don't get to see often enough. One of black's themes is discard, but your run of the mill discard spells aren't great because there's hundreds of them. Oftentimes, we see triggers that cause discard like DUndercurrents and PQuandary, but those don't create a discard deck.
If you want discard as a theme, there's not a lot of options. Megrim is outclassed by the (still uncared for) LCaress, and we also have QftNStone which is unpopular. But these classic examples all have the same problem, converting discard into raw life loss. Nath is usually his own boss, so GGrimoire is kind of the best one can muster. RoNecromancy is a chance to see another high-quality build-around tool for a still relatively unexplored piece of the color pie.
The blue mind mage gets a host of mill spells with either the goal being the inherent win condition of it, or those that benefit from it such as ISpawn or JPhantasm. The black mind mage on the other hand doesn't automatically win the game for getting the opponent down to no cards in hand nor has seen as much support as other mind mages. This is a theme that now has the chance to bring about a key piece of a cool new deck that has always been mediocre, and fans of black are excited at the opportunity to finally get some more love.
I would actually be fine to pay mana for an enchantment that reads "Opponents can't attack you", even if I had to give up the creatures in my yard. If your opponent wants to win, he'll have to damage you eventually, giving you creatures back. You could also say Voice of Resurgence is bad because your opponent choses when you get the token. Either choice does something you want. And many pros still consider it an extremely powerful card, maybe even the most powerful card in the block (or at least shortly after Revelation. On the other hand, Revenge needs a very specific deck to even do anything. And even then, you give your opponent a choice that can more easily be a "do nothing" for you.
BitWC is dependent on a dead guy in your yard and something with a life loss rider. In averagely long games, you probably have a dead(/countered/discarded) guy, and in Modern and beyond, your mana base already inflicts enough life loss (fetches/shocks/painlands/Horizon Canopy). Ergo, BitWC isn't dependent on much.
It's like how Deathrite Shaman is a reliable enough mana dork in all formats with fetchlands.
The blood in watering can is good but generic, I'd prefer something unique for ymtc.
I named those two decks because they were just the first two decks that came to mind. I don't even play modern so it doesn't really affect me in that regard. Also, I didn't say that Revenge being specific means it doesn't deserve a vote. I just wanted to say that the less narrow card deserve a vote more. Heck, if this wasn't an elimination between these two designs, I might even vote for Revenge. But in this situation, it isn't worthy of a vote in comaprison to BitWC.
The guy whose discard deck is the two copies of Megrim, three Ravenous Rats, two Duress, four Mind Rot, the few splashy black rares he has, and a bunch of black commons and uncommons to fill it out to 60 cards loves his Megrim.
He doesn't care how consistently he gets it out early. He just cares that it makes his deck work way better and wins him games when he plays it and he'll trade for every single copy of it his friends open. He's not going to do it to improve the consistency of his deck, it's because he loves the card and wants more of it.
You're not thinking like a casual player, you're thinking like an experienced player who's explaining things to a casual player.
Casual players consistently undervalue utility things like mana fixing. They don't care about phrases like "generates value in almost every deck it is put in". Something like Polluted Delta is better for more casual decks and generates much more value on average than Glimpse the Unthinkable. But that doesn't matter. Polluted Delta is the card they're going to be disappointed to find wasting their rare slot and happily trade away, while Glimpse is going to be the card that has a huge demand entirely through casual appeal.
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BR Olivia Voldaren
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Talk about useless.
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
Imagine trying to beat a deck that has tusk+can going on.
Yeah, in that Standard a year from now when this is printed after two core sets and block rotations later. Thragtusk will be great then. That definitely proves it'll cost too much.
Oh wait...
(Also known as Xenphire)
We already have some cards similar to Blood in the Watering Can: Oversold Cemetery, Phyrexian Reclamation, or even Necromantic Thirst. They may be others that I am missing too. I know they are not exactly the same, my point is that they are similar and that there are no similar comparisons to RoN.
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(Also known as Xenphire)
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Don't worry! I assume Return of Necromancy made it to the finals mostly because it was pitted against a card that actually would have lost Ro8 if not for the DQ.
To me the real finals are over with Blood in the Watering Can winning over Consuming Contract - both cards having their own strong allure that could sway the vote one way or the other.
And which dark soul would choose the option that doesn't allow flavor text anyway?
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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I am shocked Wizards put out such awful choices for YMTC. The only decent one I saw being of course the one they disqualified because they didn't do their background check first. It's unfortunate that the only thing I will remember about this one is how horrible the final choices were. I don't really want to have a whole community just make a junk bin rare, but that's what is happening, and it just kind of sucks.
Both of these cards are completely awful and will see no play in constructed decks. Both are completely unable at a cmc of 1B, and I expect both to cost even more than that.
There's a small chance of combo potential. Blood in the Watering has the potential to create a hard lock with something like Stonehorn Dignitary. Revenge of Necromancy + Whispering Madness / Wheel of Fortune / Burning Inquiry has been discussed. I think neither of these is remotely viable, but it's really the only way they'll do anything.
As far as potential goes, Return of Necromancy is a much better card, but you're just choosing between two ****ty cards- who cares what you end up with?
Eldritch Rites was really the only good card in this contest. I'm disappointed in the community. We could've made something great. Instead, we get this.
I think it is a very appealing casual card that will see play in casual formats and be an enjoyable effect. I think the Spike type players see something in it to, a possibility for competitive play, but I am very much sure it won't see any real impact. Oversold Cemetary decks were MEH and they had cards galore that supported the graveyard strategy. Most of those cards are not legal in modern. Almost 99% positive Birthing Pod decks can't support the slots for more enchantments either, returning creatures to hand is nice, but you wan't to be searching for bombs w/ pod not return your mana dorks or kitchen finks.
Blood Water Can will probably win, both cards suck for YMTC standards, Mass Mummy & Contract were the only awesome cards and both are out of contention. My guess is this will cost 4-5 mana and still be playable. But lots of cards are playable and see no play.
Blood in the Watering Can is an Oldschool effect w/ an updated trigger for the current magic times, will it's grindy game effect be enough to make it to tournament tables?
... Probably not ...
Why were these two cards your top picks? Mass Mummy and Contract are a crapton more interesting and so much better. I really am interested as to why either of these cards win out.
I wrote bombs because while the combo is the main factor to look at when searching for creatures, you also play some bombs and answers to opponent strategies. Bombs was meant to be shorthand for the combination.
What did you want?
Revenge is a unique ability that will be on a black enchantment and is practically screaming to make it into Golgari and Grixis EDH decks, and depending on the cost might be almost worth building around.
End point: if you really don't care and are just voting to vote, please PLEASE vote for Revenge and bring new abilities into Magic.
This message paid for by the Zigeif super-PAC to elect a neat ability.
GivetheCanthecan.com
If you want discard as a theme, there's not a lot of options. Megrim is outclassed by the (still uncared for) LCaress, and we also have QftNStone which is unpopular. But these classic examples all have the same problem, converting discard into raw life loss. Nath is usually his own boss, so GGrimoire is kind of the best one can muster. RoNecromancy is a chance to see another high-quality build-around tool for a still relatively unexplored piece of the color pie.
The blue mind mage gets a host of mill spells with either the goal being the inherent win condition of it, or those that benefit from it such as ISpawn or JPhantasm. The black mind mage on the other hand doesn't automatically win the game for getting the opponent down to no cards in hand nor has seen as much support as other mind mages. This is a theme that now has the chance to bring about a key piece of a cool new deck that has always been mediocre, and fans of black are excited at the opportunity to finally get some more love.