Are you mocking me, with my own words? I am very displeased by that.
Also, if lightning bolt is too powerful as a "three-for-one" card, is not giant growth also too powerful, since it is also a "three-for-one?" However, it has been reprinted much more recently and frequently than has lightning bolt, so what is the difference between those two cards?
The technical difference in needing to control a creature (or, in multiplayer, someone who isn't trying to hurt you control a creature), and a straight 3 damage to something spell? Burn spells, by and large are priced based on the flexibility of their use.
Are you mocking me, with my own words? I am very displeased by that.
Also, if lightning bolt is too powerful as a "three-for-one" card, is not giant growth also too powerful, since it is also a "three-for-one?" However, it has been reprinted much more recently and frequently than has lightning bolt, so what is the difference between those two cards?
You trolling? Giant Growth only converts into damage if a targeted creature can connect. Terror and it variants have always been around to moot growth.
Another important point is that it's not just damage per mana. It's also damage per card. Using a card and using mana fuse into the total cost of a spell.
Frankly, Lightning Helix is in pushed Lightning Bolt land today. It's a whole extra chunk of life for one more mana on one card.
Yeah, Warleader's Helix is definitely not pushed, and it's sad. At 1WR it might have been different. But they decided to make it a limited powerhouse instead of a constructed playable. C'est la vie.
Are you mocking me, with my own words? I am very displeased by that.
Also, if lightning bolt is too powerful as a "three-for-one" card, is not giant growth also too powerful, since it is also a "three-for-one?" However, it has been reprinted much more recently and frequently than has lightning bolt, so what is the difference between those two cards?
on the scale of broken to not broken here are where the boons stand.
Ancestral Recall-Broken, effectively banned in everything
Dark Ritual-Stupid Powerful, hasn't been reprinted in how long?
Lightning Bolt-Stupid Powerful, sees play in every format it's legal in(I think it's in Vintage. Don't really follow it so Idk.)
Giant Growth-Average. Good card, powerful, but not so powerful it warps anything.
Healing Salve-Dafuq!? Why are you running this! You should be slapped!
It should have costed 1WR or read Target creature you control deals 3 damage to target creature or player, you gain 3 life for WR
Land destruction has been weakened, counters have been weakened, discard has been weakened, black removal has been weakened, and now burn too is being weakened.
What's next search for a basic land and put it into your hand for 5 mana?
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I thought Helix was a rare, which would've made the cost adequate. So, you are very correct.
To be fair, lightning Helix is so expensive and sought after (and out of print) that it is pretty much a rare. Like Aether vial, skull clamp, loxodon warhammer and isochron scepter.
This...this is seriously a thing people are claiming in the days of Delver and OmniDoor ThragFire?
Bwahahaha. You poor sods. Go play some Masques block constructed and then come on back and we'll discuss some insanely low power levels. Hell, Kamigawa block constructed, sans Jitte.
As long as you're not a creature, yes, yes it is.
They should at least give us back creatures like Goblin Settler so we can play "turn guys sideways" while still getting to play M:TG.
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This...this is seriously a thing people are claiming in the days of Delver and OmniDoor ThragFire?
Bwahahaha. You poor sods. Go play some Masques block constructed and then come on back and we'll discuss some insanely low power levels. Hell, Kamigawa block constructed, sans Jitte.
Lightning Bolt-Stupid Powerful, sees play in every format it's legal in(I think it's in Vintage. Don't really follow it so Idk.)
Lightning bolt is legal in Vintage. In competitive Vintage though, nobody really uses bolt except in fringe red deck wins. And maybe certain fish builds.
Also I really wish the Shaman damaged everyone rather than just opponents. New players would have been turned off a little, but I guess the card is in line with the "all upside" design of this era.
Lightning bolt is legal in Vintage. In competitive Vintage though, nobody really uses bolt except in fringe red deck wins. And maybe certain fish builds.
Also I really wish the Shaman damaged everyone rather than just opponents. New players would have been turned off a little, but I guess the card is in line with the "all upside" design of this era.
Gifts is better in older formats where it could get cards that weren't crap, Meloku was only good because everything else was crap, and Kokusho only gets unreasonable in multiplayer. Top and Keiga are pretty good, yes. Actually I still run Keiga once in awhile because I'm generally fond of "dudes you don't want to kill." Still, I'd rank Yosei higher, if we're going to talk about the six or seven good cards in Kamigawa. (One of which was Kodama's Reach before we got Cultivate.) Keiga can annoy people. Repeated Yosei triggers can lock people out of the game.
The technical difference in needing to control a creature (or, in multiplayer, someone who isn't trying to hurt you control a creature), and a straight 3 damage to something spell? Burn spells, by and large are priced based on the flexibility of their use.
So, are you saying that giant growth is not as powerful as lightning bolt because it requires a creature to function, while lightning bolt does not?
They are both uncommon, Lightning Helix was an undercosted mistake.
No, I disagree with you, there; it was exactly a lightning bolt fused with a healing salve, and I do not believe that either of those cards is overpowered, so why would a fusion of them not be, either?
Land destruction has been weakened, counters have been weakened, discard has been weakened, black removal has been weakened, and now burn too is being weakened.
Yes, I can definitely agree with that; WotC is reducing the power of instants and sorceries, but they print such insanely overpowered creatures as the titans from M11, the baneslayer angel, or the legendary Eldrazi? How can they justify such an action? What part of that makes any sense?
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No, I disagree with you, there; it was exactly a lightning bolt fused with a healing salve, and I do not believe that either of those cards is overpowered, so why would a fusion of them not be, either?
This is actually an easy question to answer, so I'll address it.
When you're casting two spells on two cards, that's fine. When you're casting two spells, at once, with one card, that tends to be more powerful. As a result they tend to make the effect more expensive. Even if Healing Salveis a very weak spell, coupling it with something powerful like Lightning Bolt is non-trivial. Lightning Helix probably should have cost 1RW
So, are you saying that giant growth is not as powerful as lightning bolt because it requires a creature to function, while lightning bolt does not?
There's a level of predictability and linear function to Giant's Growth, that isn't true with Lightning bolt. The number of situations where Giant's Growth will help you more than Lightning Bolt is limited only to the situations where a creature's actions are better.
For instance:
Creatures with Deathtouch/Double Strike/Infect are better served by Growth.
Hexproof/Pro-Instant cannot be touched by Bolt, but could be killed by a sudden +3/+3 creature.
But outside of those? A creature with First Strike can still kill a bigger creature if you bolt it first. A chump blocker will prevent a creature from getting thorugh with Giant's Growth, but you can either bolt the player or bolt their defender (whichever functions better). A topdecked bolt can end a game if you both were beaten down enough, a topdecked growth won't do the same unless you have enough board presence to function.
This...this is seriously a thing people are claiming in the days of Delver and OmniDoor ThragFire?
Bwahahaha. You poor sods. Go play some Masques block constructed and then come on back and we'll discuss some insanely low power levels. Hell, Kamigawa block constructed, sans Jitte.
Agreed completely.
People whinging about today's power level have clearly never played Fallen Empires Limited.
They are both uncommon, Lightning Helix was an undercosted mistake.
The fact that anyone can believe this to be true makes me sad for the future of magic. Answers can't be undercosted unless they also contain a threat (Ala mana drain).
The fact that anyone can believe this to be true makes me sad for the future of magic. Answers can't be undercosted unless they also contain a threat (Ala mana drain).
3 to the dome isn't a threat? Man, I've been playing burn all wrong. And does that mean "Counter target spell" should cost U? I'm a little lost here. I thought this was a discussion of Pyrewild Shaman anyway.
The technical difference in needing to control a creature (or, in multiplayer, someone who isn't trying to hurt you control a creature), and a straight 3 damage to something spell? Burn spells, by and large are priced based on the flexibility of their use.
You trolling? Giant Growth only converts into damage if a targeted creature can connect. Terror and it variants have always been around to moot growth.
Lightning Bolt just is not the ratio anymore. The cost standards now are Shock and Incinerate. Lightning Bolt in modern is an oddity. In our standard, we've got Pillar of Flame and Searing Spear.
Another important point is that it's not just damage per mana. It's also damage per card. Using a card and using mana fuse into the total cost of a spell.
Frankly, Lightning Helix is in pushed Lightning Bolt land today. It's a whole extra chunk of life for one more mana on one card.
Yeah, Warleader's Helix is definitely not pushed, and it's sad. At 1WR it might have been different. But they decided to make it a limited powerhouse instead of a constructed playable. C'est la vie.
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on the scale of broken to not broken here are where the boons stand.
Ancestral Recall-Broken, effectively banned in everything
Dark Ritual-Stupid Powerful, hasn't been reprinted in how long?
Lightning Bolt-Stupid Powerful, sees play in every format it's legal in(I think it's in Vintage. Don't really follow it so Idk.)
Giant Growth-Average. Good card, powerful, but not so powerful it warps anything.
Healing Salve-Dafuq!? Why are you running this! You should be slapped!
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They are both uncommon, Lightning Helix was an undercosted mistake.
Land destruction has been weakened, counters have been weakened, discard has been weakened, black removal has been weakened, and now burn too is being weakened.
What's next search for a basic land and put it into your hand for 5 mana?
Oh, oops. Reading is tech.
I thought Helix was a rare, which would've made the cost adequate. So, you are very correct.
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To be fair, lightning Helix is so expensive and sought after (and out of print) that it is pretty much a rare. Like Aether vial, skull clamp, loxodon warhammer and isochron scepter.
This...this is seriously a thing people are claiming in the days of Delver and OmniDoor ThragFire?
Bwahahaha. You poor sods. Go play some Masques block constructed and then come on back and we'll discuss some insanely low power levels. Hell, Kamigawa block constructed, sans Jitte.
Context - was reponse to this.
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As long as you're not a creature, yes, yes it is.
They should at least give us back creatures like Goblin Settler so we can play "turn guys sideways" while still getting to play M:TG.
Gifts ungiven, Sensei's Divining Top, Meloku the Clouded Mirror, Kokusho, the Evening Star and Keiga, the Tide Star are crying in a corner about being forgotten.
Lightning bolt is legal in Vintage. In competitive Vintage though, nobody really uses bolt except in fringe red deck wins. And maybe certain fish builds.
Also I really wish the Shaman damaged everyone rather than just opponents. New players would have been turned off a little, but I guess the card is in line with the "all upside" design of this era.
Gifts is better in older formats where it could get cards that weren't crap, Meloku was only good because everything else was crap, and Kokusho only gets unreasonable in multiplayer. Top and Keiga are pretty good, yes. Actually I still run Keiga once in awhile because I'm generally fond of "dudes you don't want to kill." Still, I'd rank Yosei higher, if we're going to talk about the six or seven good cards in Kamigawa. (One of which was Kodama's Reach before we got Cultivate.) Keiga can annoy people. Repeated Yosei triggers can lock people out of the game.
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So, are you saying that giant growth is not as powerful as lightning bolt because it requires a creature to function, while lightning bolt does not?
No, I disagree with you, there; it was exactly a lightning bolt fused with a healing salve, and I do not believe that either of those cards is overpowered, so why would a fusion of them not be, either?
Yes, I can definitely agree with that; WotC is reducing the power of instants and sorceries, but they print such insanely overpowered creatures as the titans from M11, the baneslayer angel, or the legendary Eldrazi? How can they justify such an action? What part of that makes any sense?
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This is actually an easy question to answer, so I'll address it.
When you're casting two spells on two cards, that's fine. When you're casting two spells, at once, with one card, that tends to be more powerful. As a result they tend to make the effect more expensive. Even if Healing Salve is a very weak spell, coupling it with something powerful like Lightning Bolt is non-trivial. Lightning Helix probably should have cost 1RW
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There's a level of predictability and linear function to Giant's Growth, that isn't true with Lightning bolt. The number of situations where Giant's Growth will help you more than Lightning Bolt is limited only to the situations where a creature's actions are better.
For instance:
Creatures with Deathtouch/Double Strike/Infect are better served by Growth.
Hexproof/Pro-Instant cannot be touched by Bolt, but could be killed by a sudden +3/+3 creature.
But outside of those? A creature with First Strike can still kill a bigger creature if you bolt it first. A chump blocker will prevent a creature from getting thorugh with Giant's Growth, but you can either bolt the player or bolt their defender (whichever functions better). A topdecked bolt can end a game if you both were beaten down enough, a topdecked growth won't do the same unless you have enough board presence to function.
Agreed completely.
People whinging about today's power level have clearly never played Fallen Empires Limited.
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Context - was reponse to this.
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The fact that anyone can believe this to be true makes me sad for the future of magic. Answers can't be undercosted unless they also contain a threat (Ala mana drain).
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Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
3 to the dome isn't a threat? Man, I've been playing burn all wrong. And does that mean "Counter target spell" should cost U? I'm a little lost here. I thought this was a discussion of Pyrewild Shaman anyway.