Ive been saying that consistently for many pages and threads, scroll on back now. And its quite true; this will be arguably a worse limited snag than mass of ghouls. Maybe slightly worse, maybe slightly better, probably around the same, but the implication is clear enough, isnt it?
A 5/3 for 5 that you can actually block with, that is significantly more evasive than the 6/6 for 4, which has the addditional drawback of working extremely poorly with equipments and auras- which are far more used in drafts. And for good measure, less tribal support likely, inconsequential as that is.
Whats better, a 5/3 for 5 or a 4/4 for 4? Because overall im pegging this demon as being worth around what a 4/4 for 4 does. And in limited, what can I say? Strap a hammer to the ghouls and autowin. Strap an eldrazi conscription to this demon and hes *still* inert
The part you keep ignoring is that he only doesn't block when a opponent sacrifices a creature. He always effectively "blocks", because the only way to tap him is to sacrifice a creature....he never loses the functionality of a creature, ever. I don't get you....I really don't.
I understand the aura/equip argument and it is valid, so I concede on that.
But he effectively blocks anyway, as they lose a creature to tap him, so equipment aside, he never stops being a big scary beater for a low cost. Yes the downside is they effectively choose "who" he blocks which does indeed suck, but the question is does him growing bigger and bigger for everyturn they choose his who he blocks outweigh that drawback? He basically comes with his own Aura for free which is something you miss, which reads "Everytime this creature is blocked give it +1/+1". Is this aura combined with a 6/6 for 4 worth the cost? THAT is what you need to determine.
That's what he does in my experience, exaggerates the negatives of a card in an attempt to come off as knowledgeable. Skepticism is often used to produce the illusion of intelligence and he's just another person drinking the kool-aid.
Anywho not saying this card is the be all end all, but when he makes statements like that and then proceeds to claim both effects of this card are "overcosted" it's hard to take him seriously. I mean I get the underlying principal of "the opponent choosing is bad", but the fact is while that is mostly true, at some point that can be overcome if both choices are a lose lose situation.
One half of this card says lose your field (aka lose the game) and the other half says eat a massive flyer (that grows if they stall its initial attack, meaning that when they run out of options this half will win because it will be over a 6/6.....which correct me if I'm wrong but anything as big or bigger than that tends to win the game when it connects). At all times this card is a creature and never stops having a board affecting presence unlike many punisher cards, keep that in mind.
To me this seems it has about reached the level of lose or lose, which means it might be one of the very few punisher cards that might see play. This is a card you run along in a high threat density deck, not like it's so cost prohibitive that you can't run other threats along with it.
Yeah, comes back to bite me in the ass all the time. To the exact contrary of what Ive said and predicted, abyssal persecutor, phyrexian obliterator and skaab ruinator are all $80 meta defining cards that got 4 copies in every deck in every format, and that 'delver' guy I said would be incredible turned out to be the worthless wash everyone on the board said, and infiltrator lens was bigger than skullclamp, and everyone is playing either a havengul lich deck or 4 copies of cage because wotc didnt kill GY decks before they could even get the support to exist, and mirrodin 2.0 & MBS didnt turn out to be a bunch of reprints with infect stapled to them.
Some day I should learn modesty, lest I repeat my mistakes. In other news, you should invest in copies of this card at $5 a pop to resell them when they hit $40+, and duke nukem forever was the best game ever
Yeah, comes back to bite me in the ass all the time. To the exact contrary of what Ive said and predicted, abyssal persecutor, phyrexian obliterator and skaab ruinator are all $80 meta defining cards that got 4 copies in every deck in every format, and that 'delver' guy I said would be incredible turned out to be the worthless wash everyone on the board said, and infiltrator lens was bigger than skullclamp, and everyone is playing either a havengul lich deck or 4 copies of cage because wotc didnt kill GY decks before they could even get the support to exist, and mirrodin 2.0 & MBS didnt turn out to be a bunch of reprints with infect stapled to them.
Some day I should learn modesty, lest I repeat my mistakes. In other news, you should invest in copies of this card at $5 a pop to resell them when they hit $40+, and duke nukem forever was the best game ever
Obliterater and Abyssal Persecutor did see play so I'm not sure why you'd use them to back you up....but ok. Maybe not the top deck, but I recall seeing them used and doing somewhat well. They didn't dominate but weren't trash or unheard of either.
Skaab Ruinator and infiltrator lens are trash I concede.
However anyone who wasn't an idiot knew a 3/2 flyer for 1 is great that's hardly amazing that you called it. Congrats on calling the obvious Clan, how did you ever predict an massively undercosted flyer would do so well? You truly are a visionary.
You play the odds whoopdie damn doo. MOST cards want see play so you dismiss all that aren't clearly broken and champion the ones that everyone knows are powerful so you're more right often than not. That isn't impressive, anyone can do it so bragging about it proves nothing. I don't get what you think is so keen about your insight. Seriously...bringing up "I called Delver being broken"? Really? Who the hell DIDN'T?
The part you keep ignoring is that he only doesn't block when a opponent sacrifices a creature. He always effectively "blocks", because the only way to tap him is to sacrifice a creature....he never loses the functionality of a creature, ever. I don't get you....I really don't.
I understand the aura/equip argument and it is valid, so I concede on that.
But he effectively blocks anyway, as they lose a creature to tap him, so equipment aside, he never stops being a big scary beater for a low cost. Yes the downside is they effectively choose "who" he blocks which does indeed suck, but the question is does him growing bigger and bigger for everyturn they choose his who he blocks outweigh that drawback? He basically comes with his own Aura for free which is something you miss, which reads "Everytime this creature is blocked give it +1/+1". Is this aura combined with a 6/6 for 4 worth the cost? THAT is what you need to determine.
Yeah, he always effectively block that spirit token instead of the Hugeass Angel or the Geist. Or the Dryad arbor instead of the KotR. Effectively block my ass.
$80 meta defining cards that got 4 copies in every deck in every format
The only card that fits that ludicrous criteria in its standard run was JTMS.
I guess the only thing we can do now is wait a month after the set is released, and ask the draft thread whether they'd rather play mass of ghouls or this demon.
This card will be the worst rare in RTR and less remembered than skaab ruibator in three months. It struggles to be on the same power level as mass of ghouls, even in limited.
That its not simply "not good enough for competitive", or underpowered. But that this is offensively bad, the real stinker tier.
Still, my best evaluation is that its approximately on the same power level as a 4/4 for 4 vanilla beater.
Well, if I was an aggro deck and this guy was opponent's 4-drop, I wouldn't care about him. Turn 4 is when aggro deck actually kills, or very nearly kills. One blocker, no matter how big it is, can't stop aggro on turn 4. He needs lifelink to do this. Think about it:
Turn 1, 2-power creature
Turn 2, swing 2, then a creature with big potential like Loltroll or Strangleroot.
Turn 3, Multiple options, but let's say we drop something like Geralf's messenger, then swing 4 to 8, usually so. Opp is at 10-14.
Turn 4. We got about 10 or so total power on our creatures, usually biggest creature got power 3. What do we play? Something hasty, or maybe some direct damage. Anyway, chances of this Demon actually stopping us are very low, even if was just 6/6 for 4. And if we can even tap it by sacrificing our diregraf ghoul...
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Yeah, he always effectively block that spirit token instead of the Hugeass Angel or the Geist. Or the Dryad arbor instead of the KotR. Effectively block my ass.
I already acknowledged that his ability says "Your opponent chooses who Desecration Demon Blocks, but when he does, put a +1/+1 counter on Desecration Demon".
What I'm saying is that's how we should look at this card. Is it worth it for your opponent to choose the blocker in order for power? Because you'll run this in a deck with removal, and eventually they won't have a sac target, in which case you'll be swinging with a much bigger than 6/6 fatty. So yeah they might choose that token to sac, but then you follow up and hit there main threat with murder then swing with an empowered fatty next turn.
Is that effect worth 4 mana? That's what you ask yourself.
The part you keep ignoring is that he only doesn't block when a opponent sacrifices a creature. He always effectively "blocks", because the only way to tap him is to sacrifice a creature....he never loses the functionality of a creature, ever. I don't get you....I really don't.
I'm not ignoring that and indeed I'm exerting rather inordinate patience in addressing that every other post. Having to sacrifice a creature to tap him is not unlike being chump blocked, which means that what you wind up with is a 6/6 creature with a "negative evasion"; more blockable than a vanilla creature. Yes, they will have to sac if nonflying and 6 power or more when otherwise it could trade . But in raw function, this is rarely any meaningful difference in normal applications.
What you need to accept as a baseline is that this is entirely a drawback, not an advantage, and cannot be used to your gain. And at that- a very harsh drawback. One that severely hampers your attacking and even moreso your blocking
We are in a meta where a 6/6 for 4 vanilla wouldnt see play, and this is provably worse. So harsh a drawback can push it down so far its easy to see that even a Juzam Djinn is clearly a better card.
Well, if I was an aggro deck and this guy was opponent's 4-drop, I wouldn't care about him. Turn 4 is when aggro deck actually kills, or very nearly kills. One blocker, no matter how big it is, can't stop aggro on turn 4. He needs lifelink to do this. Think about it:
Turn 1, 2-power creature
Turn 2, swing 2, then a creature with big potential like Loltroll or Strangleroot.
Turn 3, Multiple options, but let's say we drop something like Geralf's messenger, then swing 4 to 8, usually so. Opp is at 10-14.
Turn 4. We got about 10 or so total power on our creatures, usually biggest creature got power 3. What do we play? Something hasty, or maybe some direct damage. Anyway, chances of this Demon actually stopping us are very low, even if was just 6/6 for 4. And if we can even tap it by sacrificing our diregraf ghoul...
Aye against an aggro alpha strike, its blocking your lowest weenie. And after that, hes basically like a chunp blockable "attacks each turn if able" creature that you can pin down with the same tapped beaters you're swinging with. As if he gave all your creatures provoke, vigilance and flying. Arent too many 'finishers' with worse blowout potential.
I'm not ignoring that and indeed I'm exerting rather inordinate patience in addressing that every other post. Having to sacrifice a creature to tap him is not unlike being chump blocked, which means that what you wind up with is a 6/6 creature with a "negative evasion"; more blockable than a vanilla creature. Yes, they will have to sac if nonflying and 5 power or less, when otherwise it could trade . But in raw function, this is rarely any meaningful difference in normal applications.
What you need to accept as a baseline is that this is entirely a drawback, not an advantage, and cannot be used to your gain. And at that- a very harsh drawback. One that severely hampers your attacking and even moreso your blocking
We are in a meta where a 6/6 for 4 vanilla wouldnt see play, and this is provably worse. So harsh a drawback can push it down so far its easy to see that even a Juzam Djinn is clearly a better card.
This post is 100% correct in saying that the ability is always a drawback. It is mechanically (and flavorfully) allowing a player to make what ever sacrifice they deem most to their benefit. They may take six damage, block, sacrifice--whatever they see as least painful. This ability is a drawback, like Vexing Devil's, because it puts power in the hands of the opponent.
What I think this post completely misses is that a 6/6 flyer for 4, in what looks to be a very strong color in the upcoming metagame, is far more then playable. It will probably be a regular fourth turn play for a few decks. There is no evidence that such a small investment (4 mana) with such a positive ability will be unplayable.
It's good if you can clear their board. It's basically a two-card combo with Mutilate or bonfire of the damned. I can see him being strong only in a deck with a lot of sweepers.
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-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
Because being able to block and wield auras & equipments are that much more important in limited, which even T4 has no shortage of chump. Its not to say hes a chimney imp, its just to say that a mass of ghouls is probably better
the best comparison for this guy in limited would be a juggernaut creature. last i checked, those guys did amazingly well in a limited format, and this guys better than all of them in terms of power and cost. now take that, and add a plus one counter for each time unless they choose to block with a flier.
I dont see why it would be bad in limited. A 4 mana 6/6 whose flying makes him untradeable via combat that forces your opponent to sacrifice a creature every turn is pretty hard to deal with. The key thing to remember is that he comes out relatively early, not 7+ turns in when the board is clogged and sacrificing a spare creature is done easily.
And the trained orgg analogy would fit if he costed 4 mana.
I'm not going to claim that this is a good card or a bad card; I'll reserve judgement until I can see it in action.
But one thing y'all should keep in mind is that while your opponent does get to repeatedly throw dudes under the bus in order to keep it from connecting, but that's actually the case with many creatures. The difference is that with other creatures your opponent is throwing dudes under the bus via chump blocking, rather than via a sacrifice effect. So don't think of him as a creature with a punisher effect to determine whether he gets to attack, think of him as an aggressively costed creature who can be blocked by any creature, even tapped creatures and creatures without flying, but who gets bigger every time your opponent chooses to do so.
Of course, he might end up sucking anyway, but it's something to think about.
The difference is that in addition to being able to be chumped by any creature, he can't block if your opponent doesn't want him to. Fat, dumb creatures at least usually have the upside of being good on defense: this guy isn't.
The difference is that in addition to being able to be chumped by any creature, he can't block if your opponent doesn't want him to. Fat, dumb creatures at least usually have the upside of being good on defense: this guy isn't.
They have to SACRIFICE a creature to tap him down. This is not optimal for most decks. You guys are treating it like it can't block at all.
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They have to SACRIFICE a creature to tap him down. This is not optimal for most decks. You guys are treating it like it can't block at all.
You're right, it's not optimal. You know what's less optimal? Letting your opponent choose which creature you're sacrificing, because you're swinging with the team and he's blocking with a real 6/6.
This guy has some uses and can be worked around. In MBC he could probably shine. Reusable edict on a stick has some powerful potential. With that said, he's about worthless against certain decks without a Curse of Death's Hold and/or Mutilate. I'd probably play both(2/4 split). Since both Wurmcoil and Batterskull are rotating, MBC needs something faster than Griselbrand. This might be that card. I'm liking that MBC has actual potential again especially in a heavily emphasized multi-color format.
You're right, it's not optimal. You know what's less optimal? Letting your opponent choose which creature you're sacrificing, because you're swinging with the team and he's blocking with a real 6/6.
I think you got mixed up somewhere in that explanation. I'm not sacrificing anything if I have the demon. I can't really parse what you said here. If HE has the demon then I'm still choosing what to sac. ????
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My favorite flavor text: Time of Heroes
Feel free to tell me yours!
I think you got mixed up somewhere in that explanation. I'm not sacrificing anything if I have the demon. I can't really parse what you said here. If HE has the demon then I'm still choosing what to sac. ????
If I, as an aggro player, go to alpha swing at an opponent with a 6/6 blocker, I have to accept that my best dude is getting blocked. I would rather not, for instance, swing into a 6/6 with a Hero of Bladehold. Unless it's this guy. Because I sac a 1/1 instead. He's always blocked by the least optimal dude, and he always blocks the least optimal dude.
By the way, Vexing Devil is played in Modern because of Ranger of Eos.
People keep treating this card like it's meant to be played alone :/
Very good point! It could easily be a huge threat for an aggro build. Basically, one more thing they have to answer pretty quickly. It still would fit very well in MBC IMO though. And that deck doesn't carry many creatures.
I think the Selesnya charm isn't the end all to this card. You have to have one in hand like any other removal. Thats like saying this is dreadbore's best friend, top buddy of murder, superpal to a tragic slip after the first sac...just a silly argument.
People keep treating this card like it's meant to be played alone :/
Came to the thread to make this point as well. Maybe I'm ignorant, but hasn't the deck that cast Descration Demon on turn four been casting cards for the previous three turns? Isn't a deck that is at least half black ful of removal, dangerous creatures and the tools to draw them? The Demon sitting on a board by himself doesn't seem too threatening, but sitting beside a Vampire Nighthawk? I'm not so certain.
This guy is totally fine. hes solid against a draw go strategy in a color that typically doesn't get great anti control colors. B/x control strategies are going to like this guy. Curse of Deaths hold and that -1-1 instant will see play for the token decks now that ratchet bomb is rotating.
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The part you keep ignoring is that he only doesn't block when a opponent sacrifices a creature. He always effectively "blocks", because the only way to tap him is to sacrifice a creature....he never loses the functionality of a creature, ever. I don't get you....I really don't.
I understand the aura/equip argument and it is valid, so I concede on that.
But he effectively blocks anyway, as they lose a creature to tap him, so equipment aside, he never stops being a big scary beater for a low cost. Yes the downside is they effectively choose "who" he blocks which does indeed suck, but the question is does him growing bigger and bigger for everyturn they choose his who he blocks outweigh that drawback? He basically comes with his own Aura for free which is something you miss, which reads "Everytime this creature is blocked give it +1/+1". Is this aura combined with a 6/6 for 4 worth the cost? THAT is what you need to determine.
Yeah, comes back to bite me in the ass all the time. To the exact contrary of what Ive said and predicted, abyssal persecutor, phyrexian obliterator and skaab ruinator are all $80 meta defining cards that got 4 copies in every deck in every format, and that 'delver' guy I said would be incredible turned out to be the worthless wash everyone on the board said, and infiltrator lens was bigger than skullclamp, and everyone is playing either a havengul lich deck or 4 copies of cage because wotc didnt kill GY decks before they could even get the support to exist, and mirrodin 2.0 & MBS didnt turn out to be a bunch of reprints with infect stapled to them.
Some day I should learn modesty, lest I repeat my mistakes. In other news, you should invest in copies of this card at $5 a pop to resell them when they hit $40+, and duke nukem forever was the best game ever
Obliterater and Abyssal Persecutor did see play so I'm not sure why you'd use them to back you up....but ok. Maybe not the top deck, but I recall seeing them used and doing somewhat well. They didn't dominate but weren't trash or unheard of either.
Skaab Ruinator and infiltrator lens are trash I concede.
However anyone who wasn't an idiot knew a 3/2 flyer for 1 is great that's hardly amazing that you called it. Congrats on calling the obvious Clan, how did you ever predict an massively undercosted flyer would do so well? You truly are a visionary.
You play the odds whoopdie damn doo. MOST cards want see play so you dismiss all that aren't clearly broken and champion the ones that everyone knows are powerful so you're more right often than not. That isn't impressive, anyone can do it so bragging about it proves nothing. I don't get what you think is so keen about your insight. Seriously...bringing up "I called Delver being broken"? Really? Who the hell DIDN'T?
What am I supposed to be impressed?
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Yeah, he always effectively block that spirit token instead of the Hugeass Angel or the Geist. Or the Dryad arbor instead of the KotR. Effectively block my ass.
The only card that fits that ludicrous criteria in its standard run was JTMS.
I guess the only thing we can do now is wait a month after the set is released, and ask the draft thread whether they'd rather play mass of ghouls or this demon.
Turn 1, 2-power creature
Turn 2, swing 2, then a creature with big potential like Loltroll or Strangleroot.
Turn 3, Multiple options, but let's say we drop something like Geralf's messenger, then swing 4 to 8, usually so. Opp is at 10-14.
Turn 4. We got about 10 or so total power on our creatures, usually biggest creature got power 3. What do we play? Something hasty, or maybe some direct damage. Anyway, chances of this Demon actually stopping us are very low, even if was just 6/6 for 4. And if we can even tap it by sacrificing our diregraf ghoul...
Don't ask me whether or not I can read thoughts. Ask me, are there thoughts worth to read?
I already acknowledged that his ability says "Your opponent chooses who Desecration Demon Blocks, but when he does, put a +1/+1 counter on Desecration Demon".
What I'm saying is that's how we should look at this card. Is it worth it for your opponent to choose the blocker in order for power? Because you'll run this in a deck with removal, and eventually they won't have a sac target, in which case you'll be swinging with a much bigger than 6/6 fatty. So yeah they might choose that token to sac, but then you follow up and hit there main threat with murder then swing with an empowered fatty next turn.
Is that effect worth 4 mana? That's what you ask yourself.
I'm not ignoring that and indeed I'm exerting rather inordinate patience in addressing that every other post. Having to sacrifice a creature to tap him is not unlike being chump blocked, which means that what you wind up with is a 6/6 creature with a "negative evasion"; more blockable than a vanilla creature. Yes, they will have to sac if nonflying and 6 power or more when otherwise it could trade . But in raw function, this is rarely any meaningful difference in normal applications.
What you need to accept as a baseline is that this is entirely a drawback, not an advantage, and cannot be used to your gain. And at that- a very harsh drawback. One that severely hampers your attacking and even moreso your blocking
We are in a meta where a 6/6 for 4 vanilla wouldnt see play, and this is provably worse. So harsh a drawback can push it down so far its easy to see that even a Juzam Djinn is clearly a better card.
Aye against an aggro alpha strike, its blocking your lowest weenie. And after that, hes basically like a chunp blockable "attacks each turn if able" creature that you can pin down with the same tapped beaters you're swinging with. As if he gave all your creatures provoke, vigilance and flying. Arent too many 'finishers' with worse blowout potential.
This post is 100% correct in saying that the ability is always a drawback. It is mechanically (and flavorfully) allowing a player to make what ever sacrifice they deem most to their benefit. They may take six damage, block, sacrifice--whatever they see as least painful. This ability is a drawback, like Vexing Devil's, because it puts power in the hands of the opponent.
What I think this post completely misses is that a 6/6 flyer for 4, in what looks to be a very strong color in the upcoming metagame, is far more then playable. It will probably be a regular fourth turn play for a few decks. There is no evidence that such a small investment (4 mana) with such a positive ability will be unplayable.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
the best comparison for this guy in limited would be a juggernaut creature. last i checked, those guys did amazingly well in a limited format, and this guys better than all of them in terms of power and cost. now take that, and add a plus one counter for each time unless they choose to block with a flier.
He will see play in standard at some point
The difference is that in addition to being able to be chumped by any creature, he can't block if your opponent doesn't want him to. Fat, dumb creatures at least usually have the upside of being good on defense: this guy isn't.
They have to SACRIFICE a creature to tap him down. This is not optimal for most decks. You guys are treating it like it can't block at all.
Feel free to tell me yours!
You're right, it's not optimal. You know what's less optimal? Letting your opponent choose which creature you're sacrificing, because you're swinging with the team and he's blocking with a real 6/6.
Standard: W/R Aggro
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I think you got mixed up somewhere in that explanation. I'm not sacrificing anything if I have the demon. I can't really parse what you said here. If HE has the demon then I'm still choosing what to sac. ????
Feel free to tell me yours!
If I, as an aggro player, go to alpha swing at an opponent with a 6/6 blocker, I have to accept that my best dude is getting blocked. I would rather not, for instance, swing into a 6/6 with a Hero of Bladehold. Unless it's this guy. Because I sac a 1/1 instead. He's always blocked by the least optimal dude, and he always blocks the least optimal dude.
By the way, Vexing Devil is played in Modern because of Ranger of Eos.
Standard: W/R Aggro
Very good point! It could easily be a huge threat for an aggro build. Basically, one more thing they have to answer pretty quickly. It still would fit very well in MBC IMO though. And that deck doesn't carry many creatures.
I think the Selesnya charm isn't the end all to this card. You have to have one in hand like any other removal. Thats like saying this is dreadbore's best friend, top buddy of murder, superpal to a tragic slip after the first sac...just a silly argument.
Came to the thread to make this point as well. Maybe I'm ignorant, but hasn't the deck that cast Descration Demon on turn four been casting cards for the previous three turns? Isn't a deck that is at least half black ful of removal, dangerous creatures and the tools to draw them? The Demon sitting on a board by himself doesn't seem too threatening, but sitting beside a Vampire Nighthawk? I'm not so certain.