I want to evaluate just how bad this card is. I mean, its anti-evasion clause is actually a much bigger deal than the difference between flying and nonflying evasion. Being blocked by creatures that cant block is a small drawback, but being blocked bt tapped creatures is *HUGE*. So that is to say, this guy is to a vanilla 6/6 what that vanilla 6/6 is to flying trample fear 6/6. That much of a downside. So if we wanted raw power level there, where would it stand? On that basis Id say its easily worth less than a vanilla 5/5 for the same price. Indeed, the vampiric upside doesnt even bring it up to that level. When you consider how bad it is at blocking too? Maybe hes like a 4/4 for 4. Pathetic for a rare in this meta
Yep. Because every single opponent will be able to keep feeding the battlefield an infinite number of creatures while still having enough left to attack and win the game! Sacrificing a creature to stop this guy is nothing! It's not like those creatures costed any mana or tempo or card advantage.
And again, apparently I missing some small text in this demon that everyone else sees that says something like "you can only play this Demon in a deck with 56 swamps. You are not supposed to do anything else than casting it and unsuccessfully try to attack with him."
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
Yep. Because every single opponent will be able to keep feeding the battlefield an infinite number of creatures while still having enough left to attack and win the game! Sacrificing a creature to stop this guy is nothing! It's not like those creatures costed any mana or tempo or card advantage.
And again, apparently I missing some small text in this demon that everyone else sees that says something like "you can only play this Demon in a deck with 56 swamps. You are not supposed to do anything else than casting it and unsuccessfully try to attack with him."
Unless you don't attack if its not profitable and they have to sac one of their 2/2s to attack you.
Unless they are at 6 life, then they might complain.
Meanwhile you have plenty of turns to find your mutilate.
So how is this guy better than Primordial Hydra then?
Edit: Ghoultree is also a card to compare this guy to. "They just lose once they run out of guys, this guy survives mutilate, etc"
Yep. Because every single opponent will be able to keep feeding the battlefield an infinite number of creatures while still having enough left to attack and win the game! Sacrificing a creature to stop this guy is nothing! It's not like those creatures costed any mana or tempo or card advantage.
And again, apparently I missing some small text in this demon that everyone else sees that says something like "you can only play this Demon in a deck with 56 swamps. You are not supposed to do anything else than casting it and unsuccessfully try to attack with him."
Well, not every single opponent has infinite creatures, but some opponents win the game the turn after you tap out for this guy.
Oh wait, that's the typical Modern/Legacy cop-out involving the average combo deck. If those decks can't consistently win by Turn 4 without being disrupted, they're out, as they get run over by fast aggro decks.
For the fair decks that play creatures, there are some slightly unfair decks that can feed this guy for a pretty long time, and then there are some pretty fair decks with plenty of counterspells, discard, and removal. And then there are guys who insist on playing Elspeth, Knight-Errant or Sorin, Lord of Innistrad to feed the demon indefinitely.
It's only against the pretty fair decks that this demon gets any mileage. Unfortunately, they are the most likely decks to have disruption out the ears.
Yep. Because every single opponent will be able to keep feeding the battlefield an infinite number of creatures while still having enough left to attack and win the game! Sacrificing a creature to stop this guy is nothing! It's not like those creatures costed any mana or tempo or card advantage.
And again, apparently I missing some small text in this demon that everyone else sees that says something like "you can only play this Demon in a deck with 56 swamps. You are not supposed to do anything else than casting it and unsuccessfully try to attack with him."
Apply this same logic to a trained orgg. Do you have to keep feeding it a stream of chunp blockers every turn? Or do you ignore it for a turn rather than trade, than kill it the next with removal? Or do you just trade with a lowly nighthawk? Straight up kill it in combat with a *real* finisher
A creature being able to be blocked is not a form of card advantage or tempo. This card isnt even as good as a vanilla 5/5 for 4, maybe on par with a 4/4 for 4. This isnt just bad, its worse than some common limited fodder
I really don't like this card. Persecutor was miles better.
I can see it being REALLY good in limited. But in constructed, eh not so much. Especially in a format filled with token makers. It's just a dead card left tapped on the field.
You used an entire turn's worth of mana casting it, he can spend a turn searching for an answer. Or if he has the removal, he gets to spend 2 mana removing your 4 mana and gain significant ground on the board. If he's ahead on board, he can just race it since the sac ability prevents it from attacking OR blocking.
You cannot play 4+ mana spells that get 100% answered by your opponent's 2 mana spells. This is why WOTC has had to nerf the hell out of counterspells, when you have a card like Counterspell in the format every card that costs more than 3 mana automatically becomes crap regardless of what is printed on it (unless of course they're being used as finishers in control decks with Counterspell) because it's too much of a tempo loss to lose a 4cmc card to a 2cmc card. As long as we have universal 2CC creature removal the same will apply to creatures. Your 4+CC stuff has to be protected from it or still give you some benefit if it gets immediately killed, otherwise it's awful. A vanilla 10/10 for 4 mana is a bad card.
I know all of this...again, I never said this would see serious competitive play. It's still fine as is for a 4-drop, especially when removal in the new Standard looks to be color-intensive or more expensive (Off the top of my head...Murder? Unsummon? Dreadbore? I'm sure I'm missing something. EDIT: Selesnya Charm).
Well, to be fair, the Demon doesn't die to any cheap burn like the Hydra does for its first two turns or Abrupt Decay, and isn't set back as badly by bounce. /devilsadvocate
Again, not saying the card is great, but it shouldn't be written off like it was Zephyr Spirit. Also, why were you comparing this to Hydra to begin with? I saw the previous post, and wasn't sure why you were showing scenarios where you are goldfishing with two pretty different creatures that can be targeted by your opponent. I know you were responding to 'tuna, but just ignore him and move on. It'll be a $0.50-$1 card like most of the other decent Demons we've seen recently.
EDIT: I also feel this needs to go into a deck with tons of other efficient beaters, not a control deck where this sits at the top of your curve as a finisher. The fewer creatures you play, the more relevant you are going make your opponents removal...and that will just ruin your day.
To drive the point home about how bad this card is- this drawback doesnt just give him such anti-evasion that a grizzly bears looks like a phantom warrior by comparison, and doesn't just ruin his ability to block at the same time, worse than a mindless null- it *also* goes the extra mile and renders inert any buffs or equips you could throw his way. At least you can throw a sledge on a 4/4 vanilla for 4. On this guy? Trample does nothing. Lifelink does nothing. Deathtouch, first strike, fear, intimidate, shadow, nothing nothing nothing. You can't even give him vigilance.
okay, so this guy DOESNT have trample...so why would you sac a creature JUST to put a +1/+1 counter on him? when you could just block with that creature? The only reason you would do this if you were winning with a ton of creatures and you just needed to tap it out. But really, the sac ability isnt that relavent. this card sucks
This is a fair comparison. I'd argue that paying 4 mana would net you more damage (if it can go through) the turn after you play it. And Hydra was not a godawful card or anything; it saw some fringe play and it was popular all around kitchen tables. (Note that I'm not advocating that the Demon is a tournament staple or anything. Simply not the apparently cancer-inducing, definite-proof-that-you're-an-awful-player-if-you-put-it-in-your-deck piece of excrescence some of you guys want to make of him.)
Apply this same logic to a trained orgg. Do you have to keep feeding it a stream of chunp blockers every turn? Or do you ignore it for a turn rather than trade, than kill it the next with removal? Or do you just trade with a lowly nighthawk? Straight up kill it in combat with a *real* finisher
A creature being able to be blocked is not a form of card advantage or tempo. This card isnt even as good as a vanilla 5/5 for 4, maybe on par with a 4/4 for 4. This isnt just bad, its worse than some common limited fodder
Now this is an awful comparison. Orgg has the same power but enters play 3 turns after, at a point where the game is pretty much ending. A golgari deck will likely be able to slip the Demon in turn 3 and have a chance of taking a player with his pants still down forcing him to either take 6 damage or sacrifice a relevant creature. Neither of those choices are game-ending but neither are they dismissible as trash. Even if the player finds removal next turn, that was already a 2 for 1 and I insist, it's not like the turn you attacked with him you didn't play anything else to add pressure and encourage poor decision making in the face of a 3 turn clock.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
okay, so this guy DOESNT have trample...so why would you sac a creature JUST to put a +1/+1 counter on him? when you could just block with that creature? The only reason you would do this if you were winning with a ton of creatures and you just needed to tap it out. But really, the sac ability isnt that relavent. this card sucks
Or so you can chump block a 6/6 flyer with a tapped Arbor Elf.
I don't think I ever did say it would be played competitively with any success. Doesn't make it a failure of a card. I'm personally looking forward to slinging it around the kitchen table.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
There are already 2-3 rares spoiled worse than this :-/.
Well, to be fair, the Demon doesn't die to any cheap burn like the Hydra does for its first two turns or Abrupt Decay, and isn't set back as badly by bounce. /devilsadvocate
That's fine, but the tradeoff is that the hydra wins once it gets past the awkward first two turns. Ghoultree is a better comparison.
Again, not saying the card is great, but it shouldn't be written off like it was Zephyr Spirit. Also, why were you comparing this to Hydra to begin with? I saw the previous post, and wasn't sure why you were showing scenarios where you are goldfishing with two pretty different creatures that can be targeted by your opponent. I know you were responding to 'tuna, but just ignore him and move on. It'll be a $0.50-$1 card like most of the other decent Demons we've seen recently.
So you are saying it won't be played?
EDIT: I also feel this needs to go into a deck with tons of other efficient beaters, not a control deck where this sits at the top of your curve as a finisher. The fewer creatures you play, the more relevant you are going make your opponents removal...and that will just ruin your day.
The four slot of any Rakdos deck will be Falkenrath Aristocrat over this guy all day every day.
There are just better options.
Edit: Maokun, I am not saying this card should never be played, just that people really aren't gauging it correctly.
It isn't bad to run in limited, no matter what people in here are saying.
I won't start playing black for it though, like I would for other bomby fliers.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
okay, so this guy DOESNT have trample...so why would you sac a creature JUST to put a +1/+1 counter on him? when you could just block with that creature? The only reason you would do this if you were winning with a ton of creatures and you just needed to tap it out. But really, the sac ability isnt that relavent. this card sucks
Assuming your creature has flying to block it with.
Gives your opponent a choice, so it's not exactly "a 6/6 flier with no drawback", but yeah, quite good. Not easy to evaluate. Depends on the meta.
White seems to be all about tokens (again/still), so often won't have a problem stalling this guy and keeping him tapped.
There's way too much left unspoiled of the set to make a good judgement call on this card. In standard, a single cheap, repeatable untap effect instantly nullifies 98% of the arguments against its playability. Meanwhile, an playable card that has populate as an activated ability or tied to attacking makes it instantly unplayable forever, since the selesnya charm also happens to be the only known 2 CMC removal that can nuke it at the time.
But barring that, the fact that it straight up survives an on curve mutilate makes it worth looking into for now.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
There's way too much left unspoiled of the set to make a good judgement call on this card. In standard, a single cheap, repeatable untap effect instantly nullifies 98% of the arguments against its playability. Meanwhile, an playable card that has populate as an activated ability or tied to attacking makes it instantly unplayable forever, since the selesnya charm also happens to be the only known 2 CMC removal that can nuke it at the time.
But barring that, the fact that it straight up survives an on curve mutilate makes it worth looking into for now.
If you are running another card to make this guy able to attack and block when you want him to, you are running two bad cards to equal one good card, instead of just running two good cards.
Also, MaRo said that next week there will be a card spoiled that has populate as an activated ability.
And Sorin/Garruk/Garruk all exist.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
Alright with so much hate and unnecessary vitriol I was just waiting for a statement ridiculously hyperbolic enough to go in my sig. Thank you.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I wouldn't take it that far.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
Goyf is only 2 mana, splashable, and will likely kill faster than the demon.
I'm not saying the demon is bad by any means, but goyf is in a different league.
While not comparable in power level they are comparable in what they die to. Both will really only die to destroy or exile effects as their toughness puts them out of burn range
So how is this guy better than Primordial Hydra then?
Edit: Ghoultree is also a card to compare this guy to. "They just lose once they run out of guys, this guy survives mutilate, etc"
Assuming you use 4 mana to play hydra here is a list of things in standard that kills hydra but not demon off the top of my head and is availible on turn 4: Pillar of Flame, Searing Spear, Izzet Charm, Abrubt Decay (I think i'm not sure if Hydra has CMC 4 of 2 when it is in play), Miracled Bonfire.
Things that kill demon but not hydra: Selesnya charm
Ghould tree also costs 8 mana unless you have a bunch of creature in your yard.
This card isn't the second coming of JTMS it isn't going to redefine the meta but it is alot better then people are making it out to be. This isn't a four drop for an aggro deck it fits better into a UB or Grixis control deck. You play it in a deck where they wont have weenies to chump because you are playing sweepers and spot removal so they have to sac their few remaining threats or take large chunks of damage.
It's either an edict a turn or a huge beater, I can't see any other option here so I'd be happy to have whatever I'm missing pointed out to me.
I mean sure, it can be answered by removal but then every permanent can so that's not really an issue.
The card is perfectly comprehensible as is. You are one of about a thousand people to be like "GUYS IT'S AN ENCHANTMENT THAT MAKES THEM TAKE DAMAGE OR SAC A DUDE." Creature removal is common and available to some extent in every color, enchantment removal is not. Stop trying to reword the card in some bizarre attempt to make it look good. I'm not trying to wake up with a hangover.
There's way too much left unspoiled of the set to make a good judgement call on this card. In standard, a single cheap, repeatable untap effect instantly nullifies 98% of the arguments against its playability. Meanwhile, an playable card that has populate as an activated ability or tied to attacking makes it instantly unplayable forever, since the selesnya charm also happens to be the only known 2 CMC removal that can nuke it at the time.
But barring that, the fact that it straight up survives an on curve mutilate makes it worth looking into for now.
Worse--playable cards don't need to have Populate. They just need to make a creature every turn. As I've said multiple times, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad feeds this guy until he bursts.
You gotta love a card that makes people passive aggressively change their sigs to mock the "noobs" who apparently know nothing about a game they have been playing for any number of years...
sigchanger demon has arrived.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My favorite flavor text: Time of Heroes
Feel free to tell me yours!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Yep. Because every single opponent will be able to keep feeding the battlefield an infinite number of creatures while still having enough left to attack and win the game! Sacrificing a creature to stop this guy is nothing! It's not like those creatures costed any mana or tempo or card advantage.
And again, apparently I missing some small text in this demon that everyone else sees that says something like "you can only play this Demon in a deck with 56 swamps. You are not supposed to do anything else than casting it and unsuccessfully try to attack with him."
Unless you don't attack if its not profitable and they have to sac one of their 2/2s to attack you.
Unless they are at 6 life, then they might complain.
Meanwhile you have plenty of turns to find your mutilate.
It plays like a Desecration Demon.
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
So how is this guy better than Primordial Hydra then?
Edit: Ghoultree is also a card to compare this guy to. "They just lose once they run out of guys, this guy survives mutilate, etc"
Twitter
Well, not every single opponent has infinite creatures, but some opponents win the game the turn after you tap out for this guy.
Oh wait, that's the typical Modern/Legacy cop-out involving the average combo deck. If those decks can't consistently win by Turn 4 without being disrupted, they're out, as they get run over by fast aggro decks.
For the fair decks that play creatures, there are some slightly unfair decks that can feed this guy for a pretty long time, and then there are some pretty fair decks with plenty of counterspells, discard, and removal. And then there are guys who insist on playing Elspeth, Knight-Errant or Sorin, Lord of Innistrad to feed the demon indefinitely.
It's only against the pretty fair decks that this demon gets any mileage. Unfortunately, they are the most likely decks to have disruption out the ears.
Apply this same logic to a trained orgg. Do you have to keep feeding it a stream of chunp blockers every turn? Or do you ignore it for a turn rather than trade, than kill it the next with removal? Or do you just trade with a lowly nighthawk? Straight up kill it in combat with a *real* finisher
A creature being able to be blocked is not a form of card advantage or tempo. This card isnt even as good as a vanilla 5/5 for 4, maybe on par with a 4/4 for 4. This isnt just bad, its worse than some common limited fodder
I can see it being REALLY good in limited. But in constructed, eh not so much. Especially in a format filled with token makers. It's just a dead card left tapped on the field.
I know all of this...again, I never said this would see serious competitive play. It's still fine as is for a 4-drop, especially when removal in the new Standard looks to be color-intensive or more expensive (Off the top of my head...Murder? Unsummon? Dreadbore? I'm sure I'm missing something. EDIT: Selesnya Charm).
Well, to be fair, the Demon doesn't die to any cheap burn like the Hydra does for its first two turns or Abrupt Decay, and isn't set back as badly by bounce. /devilsadvocate
Again, not saying the card is great, but it shouldn't be written off like it was Zephyr Spirit. Also, why were you comparing this to Hydra to begin with? I saw the previous post, and wasn't sure why you were showing scenarios where you are goldfishing with two pretty different creatures that can be targeted by your opponent. I know you were responding to 'tuna, but just ignore him and move on. It'll be a $0.50-$1 card like most of the other decent Demons we've seen recently.
EDIT: I also feel this needs to go into a deck with tons of other efficient beaters, not a control deck where this sits at the top of your curve as a finisher. The fewer creatures you play, the more relevant you are going make your opponents removal...and that will just ruin your day.
Hes extraordinarily bad
This is a fair comparison. I'd argue that paying 4 mana would net you more damage (if it can go through) the turn after you play it. And Hydra was not a godawful card or anything; it saw some fringe play and it was popular all around kitchen tables. (Note that I'm not advocating that the Demon is a tournament staple or anything. Simply not the apparently cancer-inducing, definite-proof-that-you're-an-awful-player-if-you-put-it-in-your-deck piece of excrescence some of you guys want to make of him.)
Now this is an awful comparison. Orgg has the same power but enters play 3 turns after, at a point where the game is pretty much ending. A golgari deck will likely be able to slip the Demon in turn 3 and have a chance of taking a player with his pants still down forcing him to either take 6 damage or sacrifice a relevant creature. Neither of those choices are game-ending but neither are they dismissible as trash. Even if the player finds removal next turn, that was already a 2 for 1 and I insist, it's not like the turn you attacked with him you didn't play anything else to add pressure and encourage poor decision making in the face of a 3 turn clock.
Or so you can chump block a 6/6 flyer with a tapped Arbor Elf.
EDIT:
I don't think I ever did say it would be played competitively with any success. Doesn't make it a failure of a card. I'm personally looking forward to slinging it around the kitchen table.
There are already 2-3 rares spoiled worse than this :-/.
That's fine, but the tradeoff is that the hydra wins once it gets past the awkward first two turns.
Ghoultree is a better comparison.
So you are saying it won't be played?
The four slot of any Rakdos deck will be Falkenrath Aristocrat over this guy all day every day.
There are just better options.
Edit: Maokun, I am not saying this card should never be played, just that people really aren't gauging it correctly.
It isn't bad to run in limited, no matter what people in here are saying.
I won't start playing black for it though, like I would for other bomby fliers.
Twitter
Assuming your creature has flying to block it with.
White seems to be all about tokens (again/still), so often won't have a problem stalling this guy and keeping him tapped.
.
But barring that, the fact that it straight up survives an on curve mutilate makes it worth looking into for now.
Bomb.
I want to add a clause to the Rumor Mill drinking game: whenever anyone rewords a card to sound better than it is, take a shot.
Standard: W/R Aggro
If you are running another card to make this guy able to attack and block when you want him to, you are running two bad cards to equal one good card, instead of just running two good cards.
Also, MaRo said that next week there will be a card spoiled that has populate as an activated ability.
And Sorin/Garruk/Garruk all exist.
Twitter
Alright with so much hate and unnecessary vitriol I was just waiting for a statement ridiculously hyperbolic enough to go in my sig. Thank you.
I wouldn't take it that far.
Twitter
While not comparable in power level they are comparable in what they die to. Both will really only die to destroy or exile effects as their toughness puts them out of burn range
Assuming you use 4 mana to play hydra here is a list of things in standard that kills hydra but not demon off the top of my head and is availible on turn 4: Pillar of Flame, Searing Spear, Izzet Charm, Abrubt Decay (I think i'm not sure if Hydra has CMC 4 of 2 when it is in play), Miracled Bonfire.
Things that kill demon but not hydra: Selesnya charm
Ghould tree also costs 8 mana unless you have a bunch of creature in your yard.
This card isn't the second coming of JTMS it isn't going to redefine the meta but it is alot better then people are making it out to be. This isn't a four drop for an aggro deck it fits better into a UB or Grixis control deck. You play it in a deck where they wont have weenies to chump because you are playing sweepers and spot removal so they have to sac their few remaining threats or take large chunks of damage.
The card is perfectly comprehensible as is. You are one of about a thousand people to be like "GUYS IT'S AN ENCHANTMENT THAT MAKES THEM TAKE DAMAGE OR SAC A DUDE." Creature removal is common and available to some extent in every color, enchantment removal is not. Stop trying to reword the card in some bizarre attempt to make it look good. I'm not trying to wake up with a hangover.
Standard: W/R Aggro
Worse--playable cards don't need to have Populate. They just need to make a creature every turn. As I've said multiple times, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad feeds this guy until he bursts.
sigchanger demon has arrived.
Feel free to tell me yours!