If you had sigarda out and her ability was turning out to be a liability you could just chump with her and you will have accomplished the same thing without giving the demon a +1/+1 counter. Also the fact that this guy comes down before sigarda means that this would rarily ever happen anyways.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
I don't understand why people are confused about how powerful this card is. They reprinted the Abyss... for your opponent. Tokens isn't crazy powerful. They'll make a couple 1/1's in the early turns (unless triple Champion draw shenanigans) but this will crush it. They would have to be continuously playing threats to keep up... What about the potential T3 Demon, T4 demon? There aren't enough bodies to throw under the bus... He gets two during his first round about (or staves off an attack) and just grows and grows.
I'll be playing four... And petting my Disciples of Bolas in eager anticipation.
Sigarda would still be a chump blocker against this guy, and if anything would be a drawback, as you can't even choose to sacrifice a creature to stop the demon's ability.
As a spell or ability an opponent controls resolves, if it would force you to sacrifice a permanent, you just don't. That part of the effect does nothing. If that spell or ability gives you the option to sacrifice a permanent (as Brain Gorger's ability does), you can't take that option.
Ninja'd
Hey man, thanks for the ruling, and I love ninjas, bonus
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Standard:
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
I disagree, I've always felt like flying IS evasion. Probably because it is. And the fact that he can only be blocked by creatures with flying or reach furer discredits your entire second sentence.
What kind of evasion lets you be chumped by a tapped gravecrawler¿
No, the worst case scenario is that your opponent just kills it. You give them an entire turn to find an answer, after all.
He can swing and the opponent will take 6, usually without complaint.
Another turn to find an answer.
The opponent can then 'chump' it by feeding a creature to it.
Another turn to find an answer. (All the while your opponent HAS guys that are attacking you...)
Do you see why this card isn't that great?
It plays like a vanilla creature.
Look, I can appreciate that people don't like the card, but it's tiresome when every single one of your posts reads as if the player casting the Demon is doing nothing else with their turns except sitting around with their thumb up their butt. Every turn your opponent is 'searching for answers' is another turn for you to be applying more pressure. The card may not be great, but it's certainly not the trash that some people are making it out to be, especially eleven times in the same thread.
Challenge accepted, after this is a $20 card i'll make sure to PM you saying i told you so.
Primordial Hydra in different clothes is nothing close to a $20 card.
For this card to be twenty bucks it needs to see play in all formats as a 4 of like SCM does.
You are choking on your own hyperbole. I don't even think Evan Erwin could argue this card could hit 20 bucks.
It might preorder that high, if enough people like you snap them up, but the card will never be *worth* that.
Here's a scenario:
Turn 1 land elf
Turn 2 land
Turn 3 hydra for 2
Turn 4 hydra swings for 4, opponent has no good blocks, takes it
Turn 5 hydra swings for 8, opponent chumps
Turn 6 hydra swings for 16, opponent dies
Turn 1 land elf
Turn 2 land
Turn 3 Demon
Turn 4 Demon swings for 6 opponent lets it happen
Turn 5 Demon gets 'chump tapped', Opponent attacks you with his own stuff on his turn
Turn 6 Demon gets 'chump tapped', opponent attacks you with his own stuff on his turn.
All the same removal spells work on either creature.
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No, the worst case scenario is that your opponent just kills it. You give them an entire turn to find an answer, after all.
He can swing and the opponent will take 6, usually without complaint.
Another turn to find an answer.
The opponent can then 'chump' it by feeding a creature to it.
Another turn to find an answer. (All the while your opponent HAS guys that are attacking you...)
Do you see why this card isn't that great?
It plays like a vanilla creature.
Mutilate ftw. This card is just straight up going in a black-based midrange deck, or even a 4 of as a finisher in XB control. Fortunately for everyone Image and Metamorph rotate, or this card would be beyond busted.
I do get the hate this card is getting. 2BB cost is nothing for the p/t it gives, has flying and an ability to control the board freely. Maybe the haters out there are just trying to suppress the price before it jumps up. Token decks shouldn't really cause the price to be low, remember that Fling is still around, so if all a token deck can do is tap the demon down, fling will end the game later.
Vanilla creature that enables Gravecrawlers to block that also happens to be a variant of the punisher mechanic? Blech I'll even take Demonlord of Ashmouth over this.
Look, I can appreciate that people don't like the card, but it's tiresome when every single one of your posts reads as if the player casting the Demon is doing nothing else with their turns except sitting around with their thumb up their butt. Every turn your opponent is 'searching for answers' is another turn for you to be applying more pressure. The card may not be great, but it's certainly not the trash that some people are making it out to be, especially eleven times in the same thread.
You used an entire turn's worth of mana casting it, he can spend a turn searching for an answer. Or if he has the removal, he gets to spend 2 mana removing your 4 mana and gain significant ground on the board. If he's ahead on board, he can just race it since the sac ability prevents it from attacking OR blocking.
You cannot play 4+ mana spells that get 100% answered by your opponent's 2 mana spells. This is why WOTC has had to nerf the hell out of counterspells, when you have a card like Counterspell in the format every card that costs more than 3 mana automatically becomes crap regardless of what is printed on it (unless of course they're being used as finishers in control decks with Counterspell) because it's too much of a tempo loss to lose a 4cmc card to a 2cmc card. As long as we have universal 2CC creature removal the same will apply to creatures. Your 4+CC stuff has to be protected from it or still give you some benefit if it gets immediately killed, otherwise it's awful. A vanilla 10/10 for 4 mana is a bad card.
No, the worst case scenario is that your opponent just kills it. You give them an entire turn to find an answer, after all.
He can swing and the opponent will take 6, usually without complaint.
Another turn to find an answer.
The opponent can then 'chump' it by feeding a creature to it.
Another turn to find an answer. (All the while your opponent HAS guys that are attacking you...)
Do you see why this card isn't that great?
It plays like a vanilla creature.
Dies to removal is a terrible argument for a creature being bad. If they sac creatures to buy turns to find an answer then you are gaining card advantage. If they sac a creature and find a kill spell it is a 2 for 1. \
Tarmagoyf can be chumped everyturn and dies to any removal that would kill this demon. Is Tarmagoyf a terrible card?
Dies to removal is a terrible argument for a creature being bad. If they sac creatures to buy turns to find an answer then you are gaining card advantage. If they sac a creature and find a kill spell it is a 2 for 1. \
Tarmagoyf can be chumped everyturn and dies to any removal that would kill this demon. Is Tarmagoyf a terrible card?
Tarmogoyf costs TWO MANA. If they spend two mana to remove your two mana it's stiill even. It's a completely different story when they're spending two mana to remove your four mana, in a game where mana increases aren't linear.
Dies to removal is a terrible argument for a creature being bad. If they sac creatures to buy turns to find an answer then you are gaining card advantage. If they sac a creature and find a kill spell it is a 2 for 1. \
Tarmagoyf can be chumped everyturn and dies to any removal that would kill this demon. Is Tarmagoyf a terrible card?
Tarmogoyf is usually 4 or more power for 2 mana.
And goyf can attack and block when you want him to.
Tarmogoyf has no printed drawback. Do not mistake the text in the Demon's textbox as anything but a drawback.
My hydra example was appropriate. For all the reasons Primordial Hydra is bad, this is bad. 'Card advantage' by way of chump blockers isn't something that fits into standard. Especially when you can get your creature nuked for 2 mana with nothing to show for it.
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I want to evaluate just how bad this card is. I mean, its anti-evasion clause is actually a much bigger deal than the difference between flying and nonflying evasion. Being blocked by creatures that cant block is a small drawback, but being blocked bt tapped creatures is *HUGE*. So that is to say, this guy is to a vanilla 6/6 what that vanilla 6/6 is to flying trample fear 6/6. That much of a downside. So if we wanted raw power level there, where would it stand? On that basis Id say its easily worth less than a vanilla 5/5 for the same price. Indeed, the vampiric upside doesnt even bring it up to that level. When you consider how bad it is at blocking too? Maybe hes like a 4/4 for 4. Pathetic for a rare in this meta
We're talking about a rare finisher that doesnt compare favorably to Mass of Ghouls. There are stronger vanilla conmon creatures, especially in other colors. In fact I dare guess that there will be better comnon draw beaters in limited in just RTR draft alone. This card isnt just bad, its *very* bad. At least obliterator was an ineffectual moat on a good day, this is much, much worse than him or abyssal
Dies to removal is a terrible argument for a creature being bad. If they sac creatures to buy turns to find an answer then you are gaining card advantage. If they sac a creature and find a kill spell it is a 2 for 1. \
Tarmagoyf can be chumped everyturn and dies to any removal that would kill this demon. Is Tarmagoyf a terrible card?
Not really a fair comparison.
Goyf is only 2 mana, splashable, and will likely kill faster than the demon.
I'm not saying the demon is bad by any means, but goyf is in a different league.
No, the worst case scenario is that your opponent just kills it. You give them an entire turn to find an answer, after all.
He can swing and the opponent will take 6, usually without complaint.
Another turn to find an answer.
The opponent can then 'chump' it by feeding a creature to it.
Another turn to find an answer. (All the while your opponent HAS guys that are attacking you...)
Do you see why this card isn't that great?
It plays like a vanilla creature.
Sooo... in spite of you being in black.. you are NOT going to play removal alongside the demon to make sure that your opponent doesn't have "chumpers"? I mean, since you detail all the things that the opponent can do while apparently you just sit there tapping and untapping that guy.
Another fun thing is that any player can do it at each combat step. Meaning that after you attack you can sacrifice one of your own creatures during your opponent's combat phase to put a +1/+1 counter on it. Maybe something with scavange to make him huge and end the game next turn?
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
Love the extreme optimism/pessimism in this thread. The demon is neither a vanilla creature nor a beast, but yet another solid attacker that can apply pressure to an opponent and keep the number of blockers down so your Geralf's Messengers and whatnot can get through. Opponent no has creatures left to sac? Too bad, he lose. Mutilate in the format killing everything comparable on turn 5, while leaving 1-3 critters on your side of the board? Sounds like it's at least worth a try.
Dies to removal is a terrible argument for a creature being bad. If they sac creatures to buy turns to find an answer then you are gaining card advantage. If they sac a creature and find a kill spell it is a 2 for 1. \
Tarmagoyf can be chumped everyturn and dies to any removal that would kill this demon. Is Tarmagoyf a terrible card?
"Dies to removal" isn't a terrible argument when you spent 4+ mana on the creature and got no value out of it. I cry every time my Krenko, Mob Boss is removed without him tapping once. He blows in Modern because he is often one turn too slow there and he is often the only powerful enough creature to die to removal in the deck. He's actually pretty good in Legacy because he is more likely to have Haste (5+ Goblin lords with Goblin Ringleader and Goblin Matron tend to do that) and he is less likely to eat removal (Goblin Lackey, a Goblin lord, or Goblin Sharpshooter probably bit the dust earlier).
Bob and Goyf are 2 mana--that's why they don't happen to be terrible, despite having giant targets on their heads. Your opponent is less likely to have removal when they've only seen 7-9 cards so far in the game (and not 9-11 cards like with 4+-drops). This is especially apparent against decks with consistency measures such as cantrips.
I'll be playing four... And petting my Disciples of Bolas in eager anticipation.
Hey man, thanks for the ruling, and I love ninjas, bonus
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
No, the worst case scenario is that your opponent just kills it. You give them an entire turn to find an answer, after all.
He can swing and the opponent will take 6, usually without complaint.
Another turn to find an answer.
The opponent can then 'chump' it by feeding a creature to it.
Another turn to find an answer. (All the while your opponent HAS guys that are attacking you...)
Do you see why this card isn't that great?
It plays like a vanilla creature.
Twitter
What kind of evasion lets you be chumped by a tapped gravecrawler¿
Challenge accepted, after this is a $20 card i'll make sure to PM you saying i told you so.
^__^
How much does a starter trained orgg go for these days?
Look, I can appreciate that people don't like the card, but it's tiresome when every single one of your posts reads as if the player casting the Demon is doing nothing else with their turns except sitting around with their thumb up their butt. Every turn your opponent is 'searching for answers' is another turn for you to be applying more pressure. The card may not be great, but it's certainly not the trash that some people are making it out to be, especially eleven times in the same thread.
Primordial Hydra in different clothes is nothing close to a $20 card.
For this card to be twenty bucks it needs to see play in all formats as a 4 of like SCM does.
You are choking on your own hyperbole. I don't even think Evan Erwin could argue this card could hit 20 bucks.
It might preorder that high, if enough people like you snap them up, but the card will never be *worth* that.
Here's a scenario:
Turn 1 land elf
Turn 2 land
Turn 3 hydra for 2
Turn 4 hydra swings for 4, opponent has no good blocks, takes it
Turn 5 hydra swings for 8, opponent chumps
Turn 6 hydra swings for 16, opponent dies
Turn 1 land elf
Turn 2 land
Turn 3 Demon
Turn 4 Demon swings for 6 opponent lets it happen
Turn 5 Demon gets 'chump tapped', Opponent attacks you with his own stuff on his turn
Turn 6 Demon gets 'chump tapped', opponent attacks you with his own stuff on his turn.
All the same removal spells work on either creature.
Twitter
Mutilate ftw. This card is just straight up going in a black-based midrange deck, or even a 4 of as a finisher in XB control. Fortunately for everyone Image and Metamorph rotate, or this card would be beyond busted.
EDIT: damn Nath'd
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
You used an entire turn's worth of mana casting it, he can spend a turn searching for an answer. Or if he has the removal, he gets to spend 2 mana removing your 4 mana and gain significant ground on the board. If he's ahead on board, he can just race it since the sac ability prevents it from attacking OR blocking.
You cannot play 4+ mana spells that get 100% answered by your opponent's 2 mana spells. This is why WOTC has had to nerf the hell out of counterspells, when you have a card like Counterspell in the format every card that costs more than 3 mana automatically becomes crap regardless of what is printed on it (unless of course they're being used as finishers in control decks with Counterspell) because it's too much of a tempo loss to lose a 4cmc card to a 2cmc card. As long as we have universal 2CC creature removal the same will apply to creatures. Your 4+CC stuff has to be protected from it or still give you some benefit if it gets immediately killed, otherwise it's awful. A vanilla 10/10 for 4 mana is a bad card.
Dies to removal is a terrible argument for a creature being bad. If they sac creatures to buy turns to find an answer then you are gaining card advantage. If they sac a creature and find a kill spell it is a 2 for 1. \
Tarmagoyf can be chumped everyturn and dies to any removal that would kill this demon. Is Tarmagoyf a terrible card?
Tarmogoyf costs TWO MANA. If they spend two mana to remove your two mana it's stiill even. It's a completely different story when they're spending two mana to remove your four mana, in a game where mana increases aren't linear.
Tarmogoyf is usually 4 or more power for 2 mana.
And goyf can attack and block when you want him to.
Tarmogoyf has no printed drawback. Do not mistake the text in the Demon's textbox as anything but a drawback.
My hydra example was appropriate. For all the reasons Primordial Hydra is bad, this is bad. 'Card advantage' by way of chump blockers isn't something that fits into standard. Especially when you can get your creature nuked for 2 mana with nothing to show for it.
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We're talking about a rare finisher that doesnt compare favorably to Mass of Ghouls. There are stronger vanilla conmon creatures, especially in other colors. In fact I dare guess that there will be better comnon draw beaters in limited in just RTR draft alone. This card isnt just bad, its *very* bad. At least obliterator was an ineffectual moat on a good day, this is much, much worse than him or abyssal
Not really a fair comparison.
Goyf is only 2 mana, splashable, and will likely kill faster than the demon.
I'm not saying the demon is bad by any means, but goyf is in a different league.
UBRGrixis Control
Sooo... in spite of you being in black.. you are NOT going to play removal alongside the demon to make sure that your opponent doesn't have "chumpers"? I mean, since you detail all the things that the opponent can do while apparently you just sit there tapping and untapping that guy.
Another fun thing is that any player can do it at each combat step. Meaning that after you attack you can sacrifice one of your own creatures during your opponent's combat phase to put a +1/+1 counter on it. Maybe something with scavange to make him huge and end the game next turn?
"Dies to removal" isn't a terrible argument when you spent 4+ mana on the creature and got no value out of it. I cry every time my Krenko, Mob Boss is removed without him tapping once. He blows in Modern because he is often one turn too slow there and he is often the only powerful enough creature to die to removal in the deck. He's actually pretty good in Legacy because he is more likely to have Haste (5+ Goblin lords with Goblin Ringleader and Goblin Matron tend to do that) and he is less likely to eat removal (Goblin Lackey, a Goblin lord, or Goblin Sharpshooter probably bit the dust earlier).
Bob and Goyf are 2 mana--that's why they don't happen to be terrible, despite having giant targets on their heads. Your opponent is less likely to have removal when they've only seen 7-9 cards so far in the game (and not 9-11 cards like with 4+-drops). This is especially apparent against decks with consistency measures such as cantrips.