Yeah, but people always asume its Magical Christmass land, where they have all the creatures and you only have this planeswalker....
I dont get why people would say this is a bad walker but say Gideon Jura is a good Walker.....
I like Jace alot as wel to be honoust, not sure wich one I like more... have to playtest to realy figure wich is better....
Also the most hilarious imo is comparing her to a 7 or 8 CMC walker, that is just stupid math imo... yeah an 8cmc card should be way more powerfull duh.... it costs 8 friggin' mana, and also Nicol Bolas in not in Green, and 3 colours...
Gideon is much better because
1. his +2 ability actually stops you from dying. Her's gets ignored while your opponent just kills you.
2. his -2 ability is worse but costs less loyalty and combos with his +2 ability. her -3 is by far her best ability.
3. His "Ultimate" is much better at ending the game then hers is.
In short. Gideon can pull you out of a hole and she is only good if you are ahead or at parity on board.
If your only way of killing her is by creature attack, you're boned. You're going to get 3-for-1'd all day by her all day
I would guess some people are reading the assassins like I first did. They aren't phage - they're just 1/1s vs other creatures. They aren't good defensively, and something as simple as lingering souls nullifies the ult offensively.
Look, she's going to see some play for two reasons - she's a walker that kills an opposing walker while leaving you some advantage, and she puts a lot of pressure on a creature-light deck, since both her threatened ult and single target vindicates are great against them. She's good against Jace 4 and ok against the garruks. The fact that we're shaping up to be a low-counter environment, barring new unspoiled rav counters, is also very good for her.
All of that said, she by no means provides as much general utility as new Jace, and won't see nearly as much use - and not just for the mana requirements, though those are relevant.
Jace 4 provides a pseudo-gideon screen against anything less than a strong wolfir avenger-type aggro board, while providing repeated card advantage against a controlled board. He's not always insane but he's never dead.
Vraska is an *awful* play when you're behind on board against multiple creatures, and incredibly awkward against tokens. She also cost 5, which is exponentially more demanding than 4. Depending how aggressive the format turns out to be, competing in the 5 slot against thragtusk will be pretty tough.
Gideon's advantages vs. her have been well-covered, but yeah - she's good vs. him, but he's a significantly better card.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I'm pretty sure you can kill someone even if she +1s
I assume you're talking about attacking the player while ignoring her +1 ability. An aggro deck should be poised for the killing stroke, but there are several Fog effects in the game, not to mention considerable lifegain. Since it was mentioned, a player who ramps into Thragtusk and follows it with Vraska isn't in bad shape. If nothing else, the aggro player loses tempo and board presence... which is a problem when the game is nearing turn 7.
Then you risk Mutilate followed by unblockable death.
If you're comfortable with that gamble, then, by all means, make it.
However, I'm not just going to assume that someone dropped Vraska down with zero gameplan,
as you appear to be.
It's not even GG if you mutilate into ultimate. There are multiple commonly played cards that deal with three 1/1's on an empty board. and you have to survive that long after timewalking yourself on turn 5.
I'm not sayign she's bad, but she isn't the stone nuts and she doesn't do a good job of pulling you ahead when you are behind.
I assume you're talking about attacking the player while ignoring her +1 ability. An aggro deck should be poised for the killing stroke, but there are several Fog effects in the game, not to mention considerable lifegain. Since it was mentioned, a player who ramps into Thragtusk and follows it with Vraska isn't in bad shape. If nothing else, the aggro player loses tempo and board presence... which is a problem when the game is nearing turn 7.
Thragtusk into Vraska -3 is a play I can get behind, but it should be noticed that it's the thragtusk that is pulling you out of the hole. Vraska+fog seems bad though.
and you have to survive that long after timewalking yourself on turn 5.
This is the mindset I was talking about;
You shouldn't assume the Vraska player is just going to durdle about on the turns before she hits the table-
if they have half a brain, they'll be casting Trolls, Gravecrawlers, and other nasties that will happily attack you the turn Vraska comes down.
Champion of Lambholt cast on the turn the tokens attack pretty much *is* GG,
unless they have more 1/1's than you have removal+tokens.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
This is the mindset I was talking about;
You shouldn't assume the Vraska player is just going to durdle about on the turns before she hits the table-
if they have half a brain, they'll be casting Trolls, Gravecrawlers, and other nasties that will happily attack you the turn Vraska comes down.
Champion of Lambholt cast on the turn the tokens attack pretty much *is* GG,
unless they have more 1/1's than you have removal+tokens.
What separates an excellent card from a good one is that it is either a) absurdly cheap (delver) or b) good in a wide range of scenarios, without much support.
I wish you luck with putting champ and vraska in the same deck.
I'm not assuming that the Vraska player is doing nothing other than casting Vraska. Of course your deck will be doing other stuff - but that was what your deck would have done anyway, with or without Vraska on the board. Like casting Mutilate. Sticking a Mutilate to an aggro deck is pretty good, whether you have Vraska or not. Vraska's ultimate simply presses that advantage, but then it's mostly just win-more.
The fact remains that you've committed two to three slots in your deck and 5 mana to a card - could those resources have been better spent elsewhere? Against certain matchups, they most certainly can.
Why? What's going to happen if you ignore her when she is +1ing?
Again, you're assuming you can get through.
If you ignore her, her ultimate goes off, and you better have 3 blockers out or removal.
It's hilarious to me that people think will have 3 blockers out at all times.
It's equally as funny that they are giving you a 3 turn clock to die and ignoring the fact that you have creatures too.
Also, to all the people talking about Wolfir Silverheart like it's god:
It doesn't have haste, and is just as vulnerable to removal as Vraska.
It also requires you to have another creature out to benefit from it's ability.
Vraska is not a bad backup plan, you can always use her removal immediately and then they are forced to kill her.
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
Again, you're assuming you can get through.
If you ignore her, her ultimate goes off, and you better have 3 blockers out or removal.
It's hilarious to me that people think will have 3 blockers out at all times.
It's equally as funny that they are giving you a 3 turn clock to die and ignoring the fact that you have creatures too.
Also, to all the people talking about Wolfir Silverheart like it's god:
It doesn't have haste, and is just as vulnerable to removal as Vraska.
It also requires you to have another creature out to benefit from it's ability.
Vraska is not a bad backup plan, you can always use her removal immediately and then they are forced to kill her.
I don't think anyone here casts actual creature spells anymore though, so your argument is a bit wrong on both sides. Oh wait, I forgot snappy and delver were creatures, my bad. I for one never run any creatures in any decks since the advent of removal spells. People will run creatures someday, I... I'm sure of it. (seriously gonna smack the next person who uses the term "timewalk themself" when referring to setting up power plays behind any number of blockers... ugh)
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My favorite flavor text: Time of Heroes
Feel free to tell me yours!
I think people are asking for her to solo win the game. You have 59 other cards to help do that. No PW solo wins games. She comes into play as great card advantage. This isn't an aggro PW. She is meant to be a control card so why is everyone talking about tokens? If you have allowed 6 power of tokens to last until turn 6, you arent doing something right. Turn 5 PW with 5 loyalty is good!
As a player, I would hope you would have a clue what deck you are playing against by turn 5. So, if they are playing something with dreadbore, use ability #2 to guarantee a 2 for 1. Any creature that damages her, dies so once again card advantage. Should always be a 2 for 1.
She isnt amazing or gamebreaking but she is very good against control. A maelstrom pulse that is possibly reusable is very good. Against another control deck, maybe use her ultimate with 8 loyalty? What PW besides Nicol kills her? Against aggro, there will be board clearers so play them. Mutilate, and probably a few more out of close to 200 unrevealed cards.
On to the Gideon debate. He dies to dreadbore too. So does Nicol, Tamiyo, etc. Hugely bad argument. Will he keep you alive the next turn in this environment? Not with dreadbore! See, I can make the same bad arguments. Good card, worth between $20-25 depending on rest of set or cycle.
It's too soon to say how good she's going to be in standard since the format is definitely going to be vastly different after Scars rotates, but it's safe to say she's good- just not sure how big of a splash she's going to make. If you're playing aggro, running her on the sideboard wouldn't be the worse idea, as she's sure to come in handy with her -2. But yeah, playing against her in limited would be pretty crappy to say the least.
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“My abusive words are filled with forty grams of copper, twenty five grams of zinc, fifteen grams of nickel, five grams of embarrassment and ninety seven kilograms of spite.”
So I read Azorious Justiciar's flavor text, immediately thought "Thoughtcrime," and fell in love. I hope there are more 1984-esque flavor texts for the guild.
the planes walker is crazy and will see alot of play. ok swing my guy just to kill her but he dies as well or she can kill any one of my guys i have out. she's going to be very good but very hard to master.
So I read Azorious Justiciar's flavor text, immediately thought "Thoughtcrime," and fell in love. I hope there are more 1984-esque flavor texts for the guild.
"Would you rather your blood go to Mindcrime, or Genocide?"
And yeah, Azorius is *much* more on-flavor mechanically than they were last time.
I highly approve.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I don't think anyone here casts actual creature spells anymore though, so your argument is a bit wrong on both sides. Oh wait, I forgot snappy and delver were creatures, my bad. I for one never run any creatures in any decks since the advent of removal spells. People will run creatures someday, I... I'm sure of it. (seriously gonna smack the next person who uses the term "timewalk themself" when referring to setting up power plays behind any number of blockers... ugh)
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you were being sarcastic when you claim to never cast creature spells? Cause if you don't run any type of creature...how do you win? Burn spells only? Cause there's not a single deck in the format that doesn't win without creature spell. So I'm just double checking.
the planes walker is crazy and will see alot of play. ok swing my guy just to kill her but he dies as well or she can kill any one of my guys i have out. she's going to be very good but very hard to master.
They are 1/1s without evasion and do not have deathtouch. She is not good at all, and will see very little play for her ultimate unless some crazy populate deck comes out and then you're probly not playing her because you have more efficient token creators anyway.
They are 1/1s without evasion and do not have deathtouch. She is not good at all, and will see very little play for her ultimate unless some crazy populate deck comes out and then you're probly not playing her because you have more efficient token creators anyway.
Ultimate is totally fine, as it is a nice win option.
If they do not have mass removal, you can simply pok one of them through and thats it.
Ofcourse you do not rush for the ultimate if you do not need to, the -3 ability is a pretty expensive removal at 5 mana, and the +1 is mostly meaningless if they do not attack her anyway (which means you can squeeze a -3 out of her, then she dies, unless you can get another -3).
But overall, its a nice and funny card, 3 tokens that spell instant death are just cool and have potential as win options, even if its in a deck that boosts mana into her to get them quick.
Ramping into her might be quite something, as she can kill any fattie the opponent plays and provide the win option if they clear the board.
Seems totally fine, not ridiculous broken, but easily playable.
Gideon is much better because
1. his +2 ability actually stops you from dying. Her's gets ignored while your opponent just kills you.
2. his -2 ability is worse but costs less loyalty and combos with his +2 ability. her -3 is by far her best ability.
3. His "Ultimate" is much better at ending the game then hers is.
In short. Gideon can pull you out of a hole and she is only good if you are ahead or at parity on board.
Why? What's going to happen if you ignore her when she is +1ing?
Fog?
BR Sleeper Ascension - Casual
I'm pretty sure you can kill someone even if she +1s
I would guess some people are reading the assassins like I first did. They aren't phage - they're just 1/1s vs other creatures. They aren't good defensively, and something as simple as lingering souls nullifies the ult offensively.
Look, she's going to see some play for two reasons - she's a walker that kills an opposing walker while leaving you some advantage, and she puts a lot of pressure on a creature-light deck, since both her threatened ult and single target vindicates are great against them. She's good against Jace 4 and ok against the garruks. The fact that we're shaping up to be a low-counter environment, barring new unspoiled rav counters, is also very good for her.
All of that said, she by no means provides as much general utility as new Jace, and won't see nearly as much use - and not just for the mana requirements, though those are relevant.
Jace 4 provides a pseudo-gideon screen against anything less than a strong wolfir avenger-type aggro board, while providing repeated card advantage against a controlled board. He's not always insane but he's never dead.
Vraska is an *awful* play when you're behind on board against multiple creatures, and incredibly awkward against tokens. She also cost 5, which is exponentially more demanding than 4. Depending how aggressive the format turns out to be, competing in the 5 slot against thragtusk will be pretty tough.
Gideon's advantages vs. her have been well-covered, but yeah - she's good vs. him, but he's a significantly better card.
Then you risk Mutilate followed by unblockable death.
If you're comfortable with that gamble, then, by all means, make it.
However, I'm not just going to assume that someone dropped Vraska down with zero gameplan,
as you appear to be.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I assume you're talking about attacking the player while ignoring her +1 ability. An aggro deck should be poised for the killing stroke, but there are several Fog effects in the game, not to mention considerable lifegain. Since it was mentioned, a player who ramps into Thragtusk and follows it with Vraska isn't in bad shape. If nothing else, the aggro player loses tempo and board presence... which is a problem when the game is nearing turn 7.
BR Sleeper Ascension - Casual
I think with this setup, you can deal with one creature per turn and when they get out of gas, ultimate something.
You mess with me, you mess with my whole family.
It's not even GG if you mutilate into ultimate. There are multiple commonly played cards that deal with three 1/1's on an empty board. and you have to survive that long after timewalking yourself on turn 5.
I'm not sayign she's bad, but she isn't the stone nuts and she doesn't do a good job of pulling you ahead when you are behind.
Thragtusk into Vraska -3 is a play I can get behind, but it should be noticed that it's the thragtusk that is pulling you out of the hole. Vraska+fog seems bad though.
I absolutely encourage any opponent to play Liliana of the Dark Realm onto their active Liliana of the Veil.
I've certainly doubled my card advantage by playing Jace onto Jace before.
This is the mindset I was talking about;
You shouldn't assume the Vraska player is just going to durdle about on the turns before she hits the table-
if they have half a brain, they'll be casting Trolls, Gravecrawlers, and other nasties that will happily attack you the turn Vraska comes down.
Champion of Lambholt cast on the turn the tokens attack pretty much *is* GG,
unless they have more 1/1's than you have removal+tokens.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
What separates an excellent card from a good one is that it is either a) absurdly cheap (delver) or b) good in a wide range of scenarios, without much support.
I wish you luck with putting champ and vraska in the same deck.
The fact remains that you've committed two to three slots in your deck and 5 mana to a card - could those resources have been better spent elsewhere? Against certain matchups, they most certainly can.
Standard | [under construction]
Again, you're assuming you can get through.
If you ignore her, her ultimate goes off, and you better have 3 blockers out or removal.
It's hilarious to me that people think will have 3 blockers out at all times.
It's equally as funny that they are giving you a 3 turn clock to die and ignoring the fact that you have creatures too.
Also, to all the people talking about Wolfir Silverheart like it's god:
It doesn't have haste, and is just as vulnerable to removal as Vraska.
It also requires you to have another creature out to benefit from it's ability.
Vraska is not a bad backup plan, you can always use her removal immediately and then they are forced to kill her.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
I don't think anyone here casts actual creature spells anymore though, so your argument is a bit wrong on both sides. Oh wait, I forgot snappy and delver were creatures, my bad. I for one never run any creatures in any decks since the advent of removal spells. People will run creatures someday, I... I'm sure of it. (seriously gonna smack the next person who uses the term "timewalk themself" when referring to setting up power plays behind any number of blockers... ugh)
Feel free to tell me yours!
As a player, I would hope you would have a clue what deck you are playing against by turn 5. So, if they are playing something with dreadbore, use ability #2 to guarantee a 2 for 1. Any creature that damages her, dies so once again card advantage. Should always be a 2 for 1.
She isnt amazing or gamebreaking but she is very good against control. A maelstrom pulse that is possibly reusable is very good. Against another control deck, maybe use her ultimate with 8 loyalty? What PW besides Nicol kills her? Against aggro, there will be board clearers so play them. Mutilate, and probably a few more out of close to 200 unrevealed cards.
On to the Gideon debate. He dies to dreadbore too. So does Nicol, Tamiyo, etc. Hugely bad argument. Will he keep you alive the next turn in this environment? Not with dreadbore! See, I can make the same bad arguments. Good card, worth between $20-25 depending on rest of set or cycle.
Many thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane Studios
I like this quote. So true. Should be fun playing this card.
They hate us cause they ain't us.
"Would you rather your blood go to Mindcrime, or Genocide?"
And yeah, Azorius is *much* more on-flavor mechanically than they were last time.
I highly approve.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you were being sarcastic when you claim to never cast creature spells? Cause if you don't run any type of creature...how do you win? Burn spells only? Cause there's not a single deck in the format that doesn't win without creature spell. So I'm just double checking.
They are 1/1s without evasion and do not have deathtouch. She is not good at all, and will see very little play for her ultimate unless some crazy populate deck comes out and then you're probly not playing her because you have more efficient token creators anyway.
Ultimate is totally fine, as it is a nice win option.
If they do not have mass removal, you can simply pok one of them through and thats it.
Ofcourse you do not rush for the ultimate if you do not need to, the -3 ability is a pretty expensive removal at 5 mana, and the +1 is mostly meaningless if they do not attack her anyway (which means you can squeeze a -3 out of her, then she dies, unless you can get another -3).
But overall, its a nice and funny card, 3 tokens that spell instant death are just cool and have potential as win options, even if its in a deck that boosts mana into her to get them quick.
Ramping into her might be quite something, as she can kill any fattie the opponent plays and provide the win option if they clear the board.
Seems totally fine, not ridiculous broken, but easily playable.
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