I am very pleasantly surprised at the depth of innovation in this set. From the art, to the flavor, to the mechanics...I am truly pleased. Also diggin' my guild's new keyword: Detain.
Like I said, a common mana rock cycle would have been preferable.
The signets are back, Izzet and Golgari are in the DD with art we've seen as part of a cycle.
On onther news, Rakdos sucks as always, why can't BR get a ****ing break?
And of course Azorius again is the privileged child, for what? the 4th set in a row? Pairing Detain with the flicker cards form Avacyn and the Disruptowl you oponents can forget about playing the game. And we'll be all killed by Delvers even more than before.
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The signets are back, Izzet and Golgari are in the DD with art we've seen as part of a cycle.
On onther news, Rakdos sucks as always, why can't BR get a ****ing break?
And of course Azorius again is the privileged child, for what? the 4th set in a row? Pairing Detain with the flicker cards form Avacyn and the Disruptowl you oponents can forget about playing the game. And we'll be all killed by Delvers even more than before.
If it werent for OP UW cards, how would blue mages be able to 'outplay' and 'out-think' us?
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The Azorius Senate: Detain
It's...nice. Having half your deck be capable of locking down your opponent's stuff, even if only for a turn, is good for a control deck. I'm just worried that, if they print too many good detain cards, it'll be really frustrating to play against. My fears are probably unfounded, but the potential for really obnoxious cards is definitely there.
The Izzet League: Overload
This mechanic looks like it's gonna be amazing, and the only overload cards we've seen so far have been basic removal. Just imagine what the more creative overload cards will be like.
The Cult of Rakdos: Unleash
Bleh. Outside of the most dedicated balls-to-the-wall aggro decks, only getting one +1/+1 counter doesn't seem like enough compensation for being unable to block, especially on a larger creature. The difference between a 5/5 and a 6/6 really isn't that big. There's probably going to be some creatures that make use of their +1/+1 counters, or that gain abilities so long as they have a +1/+1 counter on them, but I still feel like WotC cut themselves off from a lot of card design possibilities by not wording it as "Unleash N".
The Golgari Swarm: Scavenge
I don't like it. I know, I know, all the scavenge cards we've seen so far have been good, but the mechanic itself rubs me the wrong way. It's the fact that you exile the creature in order to scavenge, which means that you scavenge once and the creature's gone forever. So you only get two uses out of the creature: one use when you put it into play, and the other when you scavenge it. Admittedly, that's more uses than you get out of most creatures, but the Golgari are all about constantly reusing everything. Nothing gets thrown out, and nothing goes to waste, ever. Dredge fit the Golgari perfectly because you could return the dredge cards as much as you wanted. Unless you ran out of cards in your library, of course, but there are ways to fix that.
If I'd designed the mechanic, the scavenged creature would've gone on the bottom of its owner's library, rather than into exile. That way, it would be possible to get the creature back if you wanted.
The Selesnya Conclave: Populate
Tokens are automatically awesome. End of story. The possibility of copying some massive token is just icing.
The Azorius Senate: Detain
It's...nice. Having half your deck be capable of locking down your opponent's stuff, even if only for a turn, is good for a control deck. I'm just worried that, if they print too many good detain cards, it'll be really frustrating to play against. My fears are probably unfounded, but the potential for really obnoxious cards is definitely there.
I certainly feel Deadeye Navigator+Restoration Angel+Detain creature, in the colours of bounce, counter, battle-removal and artifact/enchantment removal = Your oponent won't play.
If they dare make a 1-4cmc Detain creature that bounces one of your own, everyone outside of UW is ****ed.
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My thoughts on the sets mechanics not that it matters or that anyone cares:
The Azorius Senate: Detain:(Until your next turn, that permanent can't attack or block and its activated abilities can't be activated.)
This is absolutely bananas; it locks down a permanent SO damn hard and it's flavorful as all hell. Perfect job here. The trouble is, this is a pretty limited mechanic without much room for growth or variation and I can see it being a little too over-powered (sup bounce?). We'll have to wait and see, though it looks like the cards with this ability might be slightly over-costed to compensate.
The Izzet League: Overload:(You may cast this spell for its overload cost. If you do, change its text by replacing all instances of "target" with "each".)
Again, this is a pretty limited mechanic... and boring too. I won't argue that it'll have its uses and having utility when you need it is rarely ever a bad thing, but I was expecting something a little more from a guild of crazy spell mages. It's good, don't get me wrong, it's just not too exciting or impressive to me with what I've seen so far.
The Cult of Rakdos: Unleash:(You may have this creature enter the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it. It can't block as long as it has a +1/+1 counter on it.)
This mechanic is absolutely terrible. Unless the Rakdos are packing some VERY VERY cost efficient creatures or there are a decent selection of cards that get additional bonuses when they have +1/+1 counters, this is a garbage mechanic. First Hellbent, now this? You're telling me that Wizards couldn't think of a better BR mechanic than this? Hell, at least make it Unleash # or have the negative effect vary... what a disappointment. I mean come on, another guild that does (a) +1/+1 counter(s)? And at the cost of blocking? Soooo daaaaamn laaaaaame. At least they got an interesting theme this time.
The Golgari Swarm: Scavenge:(COST, Exile this card from your graveyard: Put a number of +1/+1 counter's equal to this card's power on target creature. Scavenge only as a sorcery.)
While this is certainly not the most creative mechanic I've ever seen; it's hard to deny it's a pretty darn good one. It boasts synergy with the previous block, Dredge, and good lord it's picture perfect to team up Graft with. The flavor is there too and while the scavenging guild didn't get something fresh and minty, they knocked it out of the park with its usability, synergy, and resource capacity. I'm VERY excited to see how WotC will work the +1/+1 counters and triggers into other Golgari cards and we've already seen some very playable cards with this mechanic.
The Selesnya Conclave: Populate:(Put a token onto the battlefield that's a copy of a creature token you control.)
Very limited mechanic to work with, but it fits with the Conclave very well and has excellent synergy with Convoke, the guilds previous mechanic. I could see the ability to generate copies of ANY creature token you own (not even targeted), but from what little we've seen of it, it looks like the spells are going to be relatively costly. With White and Green being the best token generating color pair, I'm interested to see just how token focused they are this time around as it seems the Golgari might be Saproling heavy from what little we've seen. I just can't shake the fact that this just feels blue though.
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Brian Tinsman, Set Designer :?mana::snow::snow:
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
For all we know it's a fake or a MTGO-only art. Otherwise it seems implausible that they would repeat the flavor text. R&D has gone on record several times saying that the signets are more powerful than what they're comfortable with.
I could see there being an online-only product that uses cards from the first Ravnica block. Guild start-up kits, or something like that.
I just can't shake the fact that this just feels blue though.
My friend Rhys would like to have a word with you. He feels that putting a copy of a vanilla elf token onto the battlefield is essentially the same as just making more vanilla elf tokens, which he hopes you'll agree is pretty green/white. It's not like you're going to be snagging a copy of your opponent's Grave Titan with these cards.
Being a control player, I'm thrilled about Detain... but I also think it's a bit unfun. I thought WOTC didn't like making things that were hyper frustrating on a huge mechanic driven level...
Also, loving Jace, too bad his name alone will drive the price.
For all we know it's a fake or a MTGO-only art. Otherwise it seems implausible that they would repeat the flavor text. R&D has gone on record several times saying that the signets are more powerful than what they're comfortable with.
Sigh, its certainly not a fake. Anyone with MTGO and 5 minutes can find out its real.
But, you are correct about the MTGO thing. There is a chance that these cards will not make it into this set. I think we are slightly in favor of seeing signets come back, but there is no certainty.
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Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
Quote from oranges2 »
This guy, would either eat up several turns worth of mana to get a slow permanent that relies on your already have some board presence (after wasting said mana), or dies without generating any advantage.
It still does crack me up that people were sooo adamant that Shocks were in because of art alone... then we get proof that another set of related art is being used as Signets BY WOTC for another product.... and yet it's not as solid of proof.
WOTC has said "paying with life is unfun for new players" too... I think with expert sets, all bets are off. But it would be insane how much mana fixing we'll be getting. No wonder Birds got cut.
It still does crack me up that people were sooo adamant that Shocks were in because of art alone... then we get proof that another set of related art is being used as Signets BY WOTC for another product.... and yet it's not as solid of proof.
WOTC has said "paying with life is unfun for new players" too... I think with expert sets, all bets are off. But it would be insane how much mana fixing we'll be getting. No wonder Birds got cut.
They said paying life was unfun, then printed the fetchlands in Zendikar after they said that, to complete a cycle of already printed cards. This isn't that different. They are just reprinting duals that were wildly popular.
Wizards was hinting at duals every chance they got. Signets, on the other hand, they have said were above the curve for a mana rock, and they dont like how it steps on greens toes. Its not been from just one or two people, this sentiment has been relayed by numerous WotC employees.
Even with that said, I think they still might come back (slightly more than 50%), because they are reprints. If they had never printed them before, they wouldnt do it now because of their 'better understanding of game design' but since it is a reprint, there is a higher chance of seeing them again because people like them quite a bit and doing something for a second time seems to not offend their senses like doing it the first time.
ASIDE: I disagree that they have a better understanding of game design now, I just think they chose a road and went down it, leaving behind a lot of cool ideas and strategies because what they make now sells better to new players.
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Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
Quote from oranges2 »
This guy, would either eat up several turns worth of mana to get a slow permanent that relies on your already have some board presence (after wasting said mana), or dies without generating any advantage.
Scavenge: (COST, Exile this card from your graveyard: Put a number of +1/+1 counter's equal to this card's power on target creature. Scavenge only as a sorcery.)
Now read what Unleash does.
Unleash: (You may have this creature enter the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it. It can't block as long as it has a +1/+1 counter on it.)
So does that mean that, you could nerf one of your opponents rakdos creatures that had unleash by scavenging one of your own creatures away, giving the rakdos creature with unleash a +1/+1 counter, and thus removing it's ability to block? Might be a key play in a limited game at the prerelease.
On second thought, what how many times they mention the words "you control" in this article when discussing the Scavenge mechanic.
So my question is, can you scavenge one of your creatures away to give another creature you don't control the bonus? The reminder text says one thing, but the mothership article contradicts it.
Scavenge: (COST, Exile this card from your graveyard: Put a number of +1/+1 counter's equal to this card's power on target creature. Scavenge only as a sorcery.)
Now read what Unleash does.
Unleash: (You may have this creature enter the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it. It can't block as long as it has a +1/+1 counter on it.)
So does that mean that, you could nerf one of your opponents rakdos creatures that had unleash by scavenging one of your own creatures away, giving the rakdos creature with unleash a +1/+1 counter, and thus removing it's ability to block? Might be a key play in a limited game at the prerelease.
On second thought, what how many times they mention the words "you control" in this article when discussing the Scavenge mechanic.
So my question is, can you scavenge one of your creatures away to give another creature you don't control the bonus? The reminder text says one thing, but the mothership article contradicts it.
No, that doesnt work.
The 'it' in the reminder text for Unleash is referring to the creature that has Unleash only.
This guy, would either eat up several turns worth of mana to get a slow permanent that relies on your already have some board presence (after wasting said mana), or dies without generating any advantage.
Now I love Signets in Constructed, but they led to some bizarre deckbuilding.
1. It cuts into Green's slice of the pie when there are UWR and UWB decks ramping up to cast Angel of Despairs on turn 5, Persecutes on turn 3 or Lightning Angels on turn 3.
2. You can get VERY greedy with your manabase and get away with it. Like 3 color decks playing about 4+ colorless lands, since you have signets.
The signets were needed for limited however, so I expect RtR to have nerfed mana rocks this time around to compensate for OPness of Signets.
Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
The 'it' in the reminder text for Unleash is referring to the creature that has Unleash only.
I know that. What I'm saying is that if I'm playing Golgari and my Rakdos opponent drops his big bomby creature with unleash but decides NOT to unleash it (because he needs the thing to block on my turn when I want to swing for the win, for example), can I scavenge one of my creatures away to give his creature with unleash a +1/+1 counter so his creature can't block?
Read the reminder text and the article again. I'm not making this up.
I really like those common dual-mana Gate lands. They seem really neat and strong for only being a common, not to mention the Golgari gate has really cool looking artwork.
Grisly Salvage looks really good too; a instant speed common that steals a card of your choice, then places the rest in your graveyard for Golgari Shenanigans.
Detain and Overload - Perfect flavour and nicely worked ability.
Populate - Were this any other set (i.e. one not requiring the introduction of 10 new mechanics) this ability would not be common. I really like it though.
Scavenge - Sure, it's not amazingly interesting, but it fits the guild perfectly and looks like it'll play well. I like that it uses the whole creature, and so likely all cards with scavenge will have equal P/T.
Unleash - It's flavourful and fits the aggro theme very nicely. However, it's just a tad boring. Funnily enough I made this mechanic a while ago and filed it away, thinking it didn't have enough design space:
Focus (You may have this enter the battlefield tapped and with an additional +1/+1 counter on it.)
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Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
So does that mean that, you could nerf one of your opponents rakdos creatures that had unleash by scavenging one of your own creatures away, giving the rakdos creature with unleash a +1/+1 counter, and thus removing it's ability to block? Might be a key play in a limited game at the prerelease.
That's correct. Although RB decks are usually built as fast aggro, they'll probably thank you for the counters.
Of course the artwork alone isn't solid proof. There's no way they could be.
Reprinting shocklands is something that WotC's public pronouncements, actions and little hints all supported. There's the whole "reprinting modern staples" statements aimed at reassuring people the cost to enter Modern won't escalate too much. would argue that signets are a significant barrier to playing Modern in the same way that shocklands were.
Then there was the statement that signets were probably not printable, made around the time RtR would have been put to bed after the second Development pass - in other words, "no signets" was probably policy at the time the final setup was being decided on.
There's the coy little hints that "people have spotted the clues" that promoted the belief in shockland reprints; no equivalent statement for signets.
The whole tenor of the runup to RtR spoilers was that shocklands would be reprinted but signets wouldn't. The shockland artwork confirmed conclusions reached on other evidence, the signet artwork contradicts it. You've got to expect a period of resistance to the idea of reprinting signets, even if they did decide to include them.
Do you have any evidence other than the artwork to suppose that signets will be in RtR?
+1 good logic.
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Construction Site
Land
t, sacrifice ~: Search your library for a gate card and put it on the battlefield tapped.
I know gates already enter the field tapped but you'll never know, maybe there's going to be a gate that doesn't enter the field tapped.
Also, a gate land that produces 2 would be awesome!
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
The signets are back, Izzet and Golgari are in the DD with art we've seen as part of a cycle.
On onther news, Rakdos sucks as always, why can't BR get a ****ing break?
And of course Azorius again is the privileged child, for what? the 4th set in a row? Pairing Detain with the flicker cards form Avacyn and the Disruptowl you oponents can forget about playing the game. And we'll be all killed by Delvers even more than before.
If it werent for OP UW cards, how would blue mages be able to 'outplay' and 'out-think' us?
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The Azorius Senate: Detain
It's...nice. Having half your deck be capable of locking down your opponent's stuff, even if only for a turn, is good for a control deck. I'm just worried that, if they print too many good detain cards, it'll be really frustrating to play against. My fears are probably unfounded, but the potential for really obnoxious cards is definitely there.
The Izzet League: Overload
This mechanic looks like it's gonna be amazing, and the only overload cards we've seen so far have been basic removal. Just imagine what the more creative overload cards will be like.
The Cult of Rakdos: Unleash
Bleh. Outside of the most dedicated balls-to-the-wall aggro decks, only getting one +1/+1 counter doesn't seem like enough compensation for being unable to block, especially on a larger creature. The difference between a 5/5 and a 6/6 really isn't that big. There's probably going to be some creatures that make use of their +1/+1 counters, or that gain abilities so long as they have a +1/+1 counter on them, but I still feel like WotC cut themselves off from a lot of card design possibilities by not wording it as "Unleash N".
The Golgari Swarm: Scavenge
I don't like it. I know, I know, all the scavenge cards we've seen so far have been good, but the mechanic itself rubs me the wrong way. It's the fact that you exile the creature in order to scavenge, which means that you scavenge once and the creature's gone forever. So you only get two uses out of the creature: one use when you put it into play, and the other when you scavenge it. Admittedly, that's more uses than you get out of most creatures, but the Golgari are all about constantly reusing everything. Nothing gets thrown out, and nothing goes to waste, ever. Dredge fit the Golgari perfectly because you could return the dredge cards as much as you wanted. Unless you ran out of cards in your library, of course, but there are ways to fix that.
If I'd designed the mechanic, the scavenged creature would've gone on the bottom of its owner's library, rather than into exile. That way, it would be possible to get the creature back if you wanted.
The Selesnya Conclave: Populate
Tokens are automatically awesome. End of story. The possibility of copying some massive token is just icing.
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
I certainly feel Deadeye Navigator+Restoration Angel+Detain creature, in the colours of bounce, counter, battle-removal and artifact/enchantment removal = Your oponent won't play.
If they dare make a 1-4cmc Detain creature that bounces one of your own, everyone outside of UW is ****ed.
-leon Guatier Ten commandments of chivalry
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
I could see there being an online-only product that uses cards from the first Ravnica block. Guild start-up kits, or something like that.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
My friend Rhys would like to have a word with you. He feels that putting a copy of a vanilla elf token onto the battlefield is essentially the same as just making more vanilla elf tokens, which he hopes you'll agree is pretty green/white. It's not like you're going to be snagging a copy of your opponent's Grave Titan with these cards.
Also, loving Jace, too bad his name alone will drive the price.
Sigh, its certainly not a fake. Anyone with MTGO and 5 minutes can find out its real.
But, you are correct about the MTGO thing. There is a chance that these cards will not make it into this set. I think we are slightly in favor of seeing signets come back, but there is no certainty.
Rules Advisor as of 4/23/10
Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
WOTC has said "paying with life is unfun for new players" too... I think with expert sets, all bets are off. But it would be insane how much mana fixing we'll be getting. No wonder Birds got cut.
They said paying life was unfun, then printed the fetchlands in Zendikar after they said that, to complete a cycle of already printed cards. This isn't that different. They are just reprinting duals that were wildly popular.
Wizards was hinting at duals every chance they got. Signets, on the other hand, they have said were above the curve for a mana rock, and they dont like how it steps on greens toes. Its not been from just one or two people, this sentiment has been relayed by numerous WotC employees.
Even with that said, I think they still might come back (slightly more than 50%), because they are reprints. If they had never printed them before, they wouldnt do it now because of their 'better understanding of game design' but since it is a reprint, there is a higher chance of seeing them again because people like them quite a bit and doing something for a second time seems to not offend their senses like doing it the first time.
ASIDE: I disagree that they have a better understanding of game design now, I just think they chose a road and went down it, leaving behind a lot of cool ideas and strategies because what they make now sells better to new players.
Rules Advisor as of 4/23/10
Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
Scavenge: (COST, Exile this card from your graveyard: Put a number of +1/+1 counter's equal to this card's power on target creature. Scavenge only as a sorcery.)
Now read what Unleash does.
Unleash: (You may have this creature enter the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it. It can't block as long as it has a +1/+1 counter on it.)
So does that mean that, you could nerf one of your opponents rakdos creatures that had unleash by scavenging one of your own creatures away, giving the rakdos creature with unleash a +1/+1 counter, and thus removing it's ability to block? Might be a key play in a limited game at the prerelease.
On second thought, what how many times they mention the words "you control" in this article when discussing the Scavenge mechanic.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/211
So my question is, can you scavenge one of your creatures away to give another creature you don't control the bonus? The reminder text says one thing, but the mothership article contradicts it.
No, that doesnt work.
The 'it' in the reminder text for Unleash is referring to the creature that has Unleash only.
Rules Advisor as of 4/23/10
Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
1. It cuts into Green's slice of the pie when there are UWR and UWB decks ramping up to cast Angel of Despairs on turn 5, Persecutes on turn 3 or Lightning Angels on turn 3.
2. You can get VERY greedy with your manabase and get away with it. Like 3 color decks playing about 4+ colorless lands, since you have signets.
The signets were needed for limited however, so I expect RtR to have nerfed mana rocks this time around to compensate for OPness of Signets.
Modern:
Something new every week
Legacy:
Something new everyweek
I know that. What I'm saying is that if I'm playing Golgari and my Rakdos opponent drops his big bomby creature with unleash but decides NOT to unleash it (because he needs the thing to block on my turn when I want to swing for the win, for example), can I scavenge one of my creatures away to give his creature with unleash a +1/+1 counter so his creature can't block?
Read the reminder text and the article again. I'm not making this up.
Grisly Salvage looks really good too; a instant speed common that steals a card of your choice, then places the rest in your graveyard for Golgari Shenanigans.
Dunes of Zairo
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Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
Detain and Overload - Perfect flavour and nicely worked ability.
Populate - Were this any other set (i.e. one not requiring the introduction of 10 new mechanics) this ability would not be common. I really like it though.
Scavenge - Sure, it's not amazingly interesting, but it fits the guild perfectly and looks like it'll play well. I like that it uses the whole creature, and so likely all cards with scavenge will have equal P/T.
Unleash - It's flavourful and fits the aggro theme very nicely. However, it's just a tad boring. Funnily enough I made this mechanic a while ago and filed it away, thinking it didn't have enough design space:
Focus (You may have this enter the battlefield tapped and with an additional +1/+1 counter on it.)
Custom Card / Set Reviewer
When reviewing custom cards / sets, I look for (a) flavour, (b) function, and (c) cohesiveness, generally through a risk focus.
That's correct. Although RB decks are usually built as fast aggro, they'll probably thank you for the counters.
+1 good logic.