Geralf's Messenger is going to have insane intercourse with this card. Hell, I'd even pitch an Obliterator in certain situations for this much value. Flash could've broken it. Good in EDH, limited, and constructed standard.
Absolutely bonkers in GB Pod. I made a list that utilizes Driver of the Dead to get back insane stuff like Myr Superion and get back die effects like Emisary, and to restart my chain at 2 to get more messengers.
Sac a Cloner with undying, copy the Disciple, sac another creature, gain crazy amounts of life and draw a new hand. Pretty bonkers
Realistically he should only be unblockable without equipment
Guard 1: There goes a sword floating down the street!
Guard 2: Well, he's unblockable, so ignore it.
Eat your greens kids, omnath does, and it makes him strong....
worse version of momentous fall, I don't get why so many people are excited
Simply because this is the 4th drop Zombies has been waiting for outside of Phyrexian Obliterator (Which sucks in today's meta btw). 3rd turn Messenger to 4th turn Disciple is bonkers because not only will it delay the combat math, it will also give you a 2/1 body and draw you cards.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
Momentous Fall saw minimal play, and I don't see this making any huge waves. Where Momentous Fall gave you ways to react to removal, now you're giving your opponent ways to react to leave you in a bad position. That makes it worse. If they destroy or return your intended sacrifice back to your hand, you used your fourth turn to play out a 2/1.
This. I would MUCH rather play an Aristocrat or an Obliterator at four then this guy. Yeah, yeah, Birthing pod, value....whatever....This guy isn't going to be very big anytime soon.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks
Standard::symb::symr::Zombies
Modern: :symw::symw::symw:Death and Taxes
EDH: :symb::symb::symb:Shirei Shenanigans:symb::symb::symb:
Black Cat Collection: 27 (2 Foiled, 2 Japanese, 2 Korean)
This. I would MUCH rather play an Aristocrat or an Obliterator at four then this guy. Yeah, yeah, Birthing pod, value....whatever....This guy isn't going to be very big anytime soon.
You play a Zombie pod deck and you don't think this guy is good?
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
This card always breaks even. Always. Even if the only other creature is a 1 power creature you break even card wise. If you have anything with 2 power or more you start generating card advantage. It's true value comes in eating up expendable creatures. As an avid nicol bolas casual player most games down down to me playing a bunch of mulldrifter, a bunch of shriekmaw, stalling with mnemonic wall to get back removal and counters or some variation thereof. Eating a shriekmaw, or mulldrifter isn't bad value in casual. In standard this fellow can eat other copies of himself making multiple copies of himself usable. Is he perfect? No. But eating little expendable guys for value is his key. And if they are using removal on your expendable creatures to stop you from gaining value then you have already gotten a leg up. If that removal is vapor snag you get to use the value guys again. The removal argument regarding this card is pretty foolish
worse version of momentous fall, I don't get why so many people are excited
The difference between Regrowth and Eternal Witness is amazing, and almost always means shenanigans. The scale of shenanigans depends on the format, of course, but even in standard, value is value.
Personally, I think it's a little expensive. And no, saccing a 1-power creature doesn't break even, because you tossed a creature out to get that extra card. The deck that plays it will want it rather specifically, I think. Four mana is a lot to commit to card advantage, and being situational (bad after a board wipe) is problematic. Yes, it can hold a sword just fine, but so can a lot of creatures. Just play Elvish Visionary, if you ask me. It's not in black, though, so that's its one opening, basically. Do black decks care for this sort of thing, though? I don't imagine so. It's not aggressive for a 4-drop, and it's a little too situational for a control shell. It's basically stuck looking for a spot in a Pod shell, where it could generate some nice value, but at the cost of board presence and whatever else you might have wanted at the 4-slot.
/shrug. I'll wait and see, but I'm not expecting much from it. More excited about the Augur, and if you saw my posts there, I'm not that excited about him either. At least not for serious business. Fun cards, casually speaking
And What abou stuff like
Evoke a Reveillark
Revive this and Karmic Guide
Retrive Llark with Guide
Sac Llark with this
Get more stuff from Grave and lots of Cards + Life?
This card always breaks even. Always. Even if the only other creature is a 1 power creature you break even card wise. If you have anything with 2 power or more you start generating card advantage. It's true value comes in eating up expendable creatures. As an avid nicol bolas casual player most games down down to me playing a bunch of mulldrifter, a bunch of shriekmaw, stalling with mnemonic wall to get back removal and counters or some variation thereof. Eating a shriekmaw, or mulldrifter isn't bad value in casual. In standard this fellow can eat other copies of himself making multiple copies of himself usable. Is he perfect? No. But eating little expendable guys for value is his key. And if they are using removal on your expendable creatures to stop you from gaining value then you have already gotten a leg up. If that removal is vapor snag you get to use the value guys again. The removal argument regarding this card is pretty foolish
Remind me how making the poor Disciple of Bolas sac a Mnemonic Wall breaks even. (There's also Disciple saccing Spellskite, etc.)
The difference between Regrowth and Eternal Witness is amazing, and almost always means shenanigans. The scale of shenanigans depends on the format, of course, but even in standard, value is value.
Personally, I think it's a little expensive. And no, saccing a 1-power creature doesn't break even, because you tossed a creature out to get that extra card. The deck that plays it will want it rather specifically, I think. Four mana is a lot to commit to card advantage, and being situational (bad after a board wipe) is problematic. Yes, it can hold a sword just fine, but so can a lot of creatures. Just play Elvish Visionary, if you ask me. It's not in black, though, so that's its one opening, basically. Do black decks care for this sort of thing, though? I don't imagine so. It's not aggressive for a 4-drop, and it's a little too situational for a control shell. It's basically stuck looking for a spot in a Pod shell, where it could generate some nice value, but at the cost of board presence and whatever else you might have wanted at the 4-slot.
/shrug. I'll wait and see, but I'm not expecting much from it. More excited about the Augur, and if you saw my posts there, I'm not that excited about him either. At least not for serious business. Fun cards, casually speaking
The difference between Regrowth and Eternal Witness in Vintage is astounding. One of them is actually played, and the other requires too much green mana to be viable. Oath of Druids decks love Regrowth--it's almost another Demonic Tutor in that deck. In the meantime, Eternal Witness fans in Vintage can satisfy themselves with the blue Snapcaster Mage.
...The difference between Regrowth and Eternal Witness in Legacy is that one of them can be found with Green Sun's Zenith, and the other cannot. The one found with GSZ is played way more often.
Why are people comparing this card to Momentous Fall? Here is the flaws in making that comparison.
-Different color
-Different Metagame
-Different wording of cards
-Creature, not instant.
The metagame point is the most important. Zombies exist right now, and they play killing wave and mortarpod. Obviously they plan to sacrifice their own guys, so thats not an issue. Zombie pod will most definitely play one copy because it is good grab on occasion. The overall point was that just because a card that was kinda like this one was not played in a completely different meta does not mean this card is invalidated.
The fact that its a creature is important too. Nobody plays divination, but put the ability on a critter (Mulldrifter) and suddenly its great. The 2/1 body is not irrelevant.
What would make this card not played would be zombies not caring enough about drawing cards to use up a 4 mana spot for this. But likely most builds (especially pod ones) will try this out. Comparing this card to Momentous Fall is pretty much admitting you don't understand card comparisons, because these cards are not that alike. There was a red card from odyssey that was two mana and gave a card flashback equal to its manacost. By the logic of people here, since that card never saw play, neither should Snapcaster mage.
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can tough the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Agressive decks need board presence and can do without hand. Control decks need hand and can do without creatures. This transforms creatures into hand, can't really see where this would be good.
Agressive decks need board presence and can do without hand. Control decks need hand and can do without creatures. This transforms creatures into hand, can't really see where this would be good.
Thank you! Seriously, when is this card going to be good for you in any situation? Trading an Obliterator for 5 cards and five life against another aggro deck? Loosing your clock against Delver for cards and VERY little time? Drawing some cards and hitting all of your 1-ofs that you want to pod into? Zombie Pod is aggressive enough to not need the cards or extra life gain. You have Blood Artist for the life, and once you get pod online, you have all the value and card advantage you need.
and a 4 drop 2/1 RIGHT NOW in this metagame is terrible. Let's say u pod a messenger into this (comes back with undying of course), get disciple, sac some creature, gain some life and draw some cards End step your delver playing opponent gut shots your disciple and plays angel. Now what? :/
My deck plays skinrender at 4 to deal with angel and other threats. I gain so much life off blood artist that disciple isn't needed. I really don't like this card at all. Seriously, just play aristocrat and kill them on the spot.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks
Standard::symb::symr::Zombies
Modern: :symw::symw::symw:Death and Taxes
EDH: :symb::symb::symb:Shirei Shenanigans:symb::symb::symb:
Black Cat Collection: 27 (2 Foiled, 2 Japanese, 2 Korean)
I like this card for EDH though, i am not sure for other formats.
For standard, I guess zombie can use this.
Sacrificing a creature in exchange for card draw + life gain isn't that bad, but for a T4 drop i doubt it'll be in played that early. This could be used if you have stabilized the board and wont mind in losing creatures, hence for control.
I just like how this card can be used to pull off shenanigans.
The comparisons to momentous fall are laughable. It may seem silly to say, but this card has very little in common with momentous fall.
It's black, a color that can far more easily sacrifice its own creatures for a net gain.
It's a creature, meaning it can combo with other cards much better than a sorcery.
It exists in an entirely different format. Momentous Fall didn't exist in a world with Undying.
In summation, Momentous Fall's playability has little to do with Disciple of Bolas' playability.
Does that make this card good? I think it certainly makes it better than momentous fall. Sure, there are other considerations to take into account (as mentioned aggro decks rarely need hand, and control decks rarely need creatures) that make this probably less good than some are evaluating, but dismissing this due to the playability of an almost entirely different card is a mistake, IMO.
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Decks Played:
Dark DepthslBWG (Legacy)
Coralhelm KnightsGWU (Modern)
Vengevine the Rerevengeancening BRG (Modern)
It's rare, I put the rest of the info in this post.
I like that he has an enabler in each of his colours, a fairly decent Bolas themed deck could be made with these cards.
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Sac a Cloner with undying, copy the Disciple, sac another creature, gain crazy amounts of life and draw a new hand. Pretty bonkers
Come help me make my Pauper cube awsome!
Simply because this is the 4th drop Zombies has been waiting for outside of Phyrexian Obliterator (Which sucks in today's meta btw). 3rd turn Messenger to 4th turn Disciple is bonkers because not only will it delay the combat math, it will also give you a 2/1 body and draw you cards.
..because it's a creature?
That's a pretty big upside.
This. I would MUCH rather play an Aristocrat or an Obliterator at four then this guy. Yeah, yeah, Birthing pod, value....whatever....This guy isn't going to be very big anytime soon.
Standard::symb::symr::Zombies
Modern: :symw::symw::symw:Death and Taxes
EDH: :symb::symb::symb:Shirei Shenanigans:symb::symb::symb:
Black Cat Collection: 27 (2 Foiled, 2 Japanese, 2 Korean)
You play a Zombie pod deck and you don't think this guy is good?
Alright, makes sense.
The difference between Regrowth and Eternal Witness is amazing, and almost always means shenanigans. The scale of shenanigans depends on the format, of course, but even in standard, value is value.
Personally, I think it's a little expensive. And no, saccing a 1-power creature doesn't break even, because you tossed a creature out to get that extra card. The deck that plays it will want it rather specifically, I think. Four mana is a lot to commit to card advantage, and being situational (bad after a board wipe) is problematic. Yes, it can hold a sword just fine, but so can a lot of creatures. Just play Elvish Visionary, if you ask me. It's not in black, though, so that's its one opening, basically. Do black decks care for this sort of thing, though? I don't imagine so. It's not aggressive for a 4-drop, and it's a little too situational for a control shell. It's basically stuck looking for a spot in a Pod shell, where it could generate some nice value, but at the cost of board presence and whatever else you might have wanted at the 4-slot.
/shrug. I'll wait and see, but I'm not expecting much from it. More excited about the Augur, and if you saw my posts there, I'm not that excited about him either. At least not for serious business. Fun cards, casually speaking
Karador EDH
Comments on decks welcome: http://tappedout.net/users/AradonTemplar/
Currently developing Set 1 of 3, 'Shadow': http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=436885
Evoke a Reveillark
Revive this and Karmic Guide
Retrive Llark with Guide
Sac Llark with this
Get more stuff from Grave and lots of Cards + Life?
Does that work?
Remind me how making the poor Disciple of Bolas sac a Mnemonic Wall breaks even. (There's also Disciple saccing Spellskite, etc.)
The difference between Regrowth and Eternal Witness in Vintage is astounding. One of them is actually played, and the other requires too much green mana to be viable. Oath of Druids decks love Regrowth--it's almost another Demonic Tutor in that deck. In the meantime, Eternal Witness fans in Vintage can satisfy themselves with the blue Snapcaster Mage.
...The difference between Regrowth and Eternal Witness in Legacy is that one of them can be found with Green Sun's Zenith, and the other cannot. The one found with GSZ is played way more often.
Deal X+1, Draw X+1, Gain X+1.
You mean X/2 +1? Since you pay twice the amount of life you get in power?
Still, nice returns. I think a lot of people would still be interested in Necro if the price were doubled
Karador EDH
Comments on decks welcome: http://tappedout.net/users/AradonTemplar/
Currently developing Set 1 of 3, 'Shadow': http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=436885
-Different color
-Different Metagame
-Different wording of cards
-Creature, not instant.
The metagame point is the most important. Zombies exist right now, and they play killing wave and mortarpod. Obviously they plan to sacrifice their own guys, so thats not an issue. Zombie pod will most definitely play one copy because it is good grab on occasion. The overall point was that just because a card that was kinda like this one was not played in a completely different meta does not mean this card is invalidated.
The fact that its a creature is important too. Nobody plays divination, but put the ability on a critter (Mulldrifter) and suddenly its great. The 2/1 body is not irrelevant.
What would make this card not played would be zombies not caring enough about drawing cards to use up a 4 mana spot for this. But likely most builds (especially pod ones) will try this out. Comparing this card to Momentous Fall is pretty much admitting you don't understand card comparisons, because these cards are not that alike. There was a red card from odyssey that was two mana and gave a card flashback equal to its manacost. By the logic of people here, since that card never saw play, neither should Snapcaster mage.
Swing with a creature, it gets exalted, eat it, gain life, draw cards.
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you cant sacrifice creatures you dont control, only creatures you control
anyway, this guy...amazing, simply amazing.
sorry, thats not good english, I got excited. Bolas related material does that too me.
What I meant to say was..
Zoh My GOD! I need to get my birthing pods!!
:P:P
EDIT: also, really cool card for savra, queen of the golgari edh I reckon, fun and powerful include
I invision a future where one is not mighty when he can silence a crowd with brutality,
but when he leaves them speechless with wisdom.
Thanks to Gabgabdevo for the awesome sig image!
I'm always looking for foil Madcap Skills and Ghitu Fire-Eater, [trade thread link forthcoming]
Thank you! Seriously, when is this card going to be good for you in any situation? Trading an Obliterator for 5 cards and five life against another aggro deck? Loosing your clock against Delver for cards and VERY little time? Drawing some cards and hitting all of your 1-ofs that you want to pod into? Zombie Pod is aggressive enough to not need the cards or extra life gain. You have Blood Artist for the life, and once you get pod online, you have all the value and card advantage you need.
and a 4 drop 2/1 RIGHT NOW in this metagame is terrible. Let's say u pod a messenger into this (comes back with undying of course), get disciple, sac some creature, gain some life and draw some cards End step your delver playing opponent gut shots your disciple and plays angel. Now what? :/
My deck plays skinrender at 4 to deal with angel and other threats. I gain so much life off blood artist that disciple isn't needed. I really don't like this card at all. Seriously, just play aristocrat and kill them on the spot.
Standard::symb::symr::Zombies
Modern: :symw::symw::symw:Death and Taxes
EDH: :symb::symb::symb:Shirei Shenanigans:symb::symb::symb:
Black Cat Collection: 27 (2 Foiled, 2 Japanese, 2 Korean)
For standard, I guess zombie can use this.
Sacrificing a creature in exchange for card draw + life gain isn't that bad, but for a T4 drop i doubt it'll be in played that early. This could be used if you have stabilized the board and wont mind in losing creatures, hence for control.
I just like how this card can be used to pull off shenanigans.
Does that make this card good? I think it certainly makes it better than momentous fall. Sure, there are other considerations to take into account (as mentioned aggro decks rarely need hand, and control decks rarely need creatures) that make this probably less good than some are evaluating, but dismissing this due to the playability of an almost entirely different card is a mistake, IMO.
My custom sets:
Caeia Block (Released - Beta)
Generals of Dareth (In Design)