The problem is that it's presenting a new "default" option to the game, something that really hasn't ever been present before.
The issue this is presenting is that it's basically telling people that the optimal play should just be assumed, instead of telling the controller of the permanent that they have to announce what they are doing with the permanent, which is already a mandatory part of Magic anyways.
The problem here isn't so much the specific card involved but the precedent this is setting. It could cause issues later.
I actually think this was a response to the mtgo system which made tapping awkward. Cavern of souls mana floating automatically gets spent last. There were some issues and complaints.
People still don't get it. Before, it defaulted to the colorless ability, for no good reason; now it defaults to the colored ability, for no good reason. The only difference is that players intend to use the second ability 99% of the time when possible, so why make them announce it every time?
Glad that's what I just assumed to begin with. The counter baiting thing is laughable. You played a creature that you could have made uncounterable but you didn't. Oh, you have open mana too? Yeah, let me just help you out and counter that!:sarcasm: That comment makes you look like more of an idiot then the "noob" non-announcing CoS player.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't calling a judge on trying to counter a creature because they didn't clarify the usage of CoS, prior to this change, get both players a warning for anything above the regular REL?
Cards should act like we think they should act. Plain and simple. This is a good ruling. If you think this is a bad ruling, you are severely misunderstanding why pro players are pro players. They don't get to where they are by arguing that an unintuitive technicality is game-breaking.
Sigismond0 the issue here is it is not a mandatory ability.
NEITHER of the CoS abilities are mandatory. If the game state is ambiguous, it is your DUTY to disambiguiate it. There is no default mode on CoS.
From your point of view, I guess:
- If you play a good aura while controlling only one creature without announcing target, then your opponent can force you to put the enchantment on his creature. Hey, you didn't announce the target, so the judge must choose the worst!
- If you play a counter in a counter war without explicitly saying what your target, then you target your own spell or previous counter. Worse target slected by default!
- Play a mill spell to kill your opp? Sorry, you just milled yourself! Ahaha!
The idea of any card having a "default" action set by a rules update is weird; any modular card has to have its mode declared, yes? Wouldn't that apply to tapping a Cavern for any kind of mana, colorless or uncounterable? The rules making decisions for players is a bad trend, IMO.
Default assumptions have been a part of tournament magic for a very long time.
If you tap 6 swamps to pump your shade, then each activation resolved before the next was activated.
You cast Blaze by tapping 10 lands, X is automatically 9.
If you are ever asked to pay 0, then you are assumed to pay it.
If you cast Cancel, it automatically targets the spell on the top of the stack.
If you attack with a bunch of creatures, you attacked the player and not any planeswalkers.
You automatically assign maximum trample damage to players/planeswalkers.
And so on. If you want to deviate from any of these things, you need to explicitly state the deviation. This is just one more such assumption.
The pronblem with Cavern of Souls is that neither mana ability affects the gamestate visibly. This is not true with painlands. With painlands, you can always tell which ability was activated by whether the player's life changed or not.
Life totals are, by definition, a part of the visual representation of the game.
Got it. So not only does he lose 2 lives, he also gets a warning for not keeping track of game state. AmiRite? ;P
The success of a game like Magic is largely attributable to how intuitive its rules are. There are exceptions, like planeswalkers, but even then, when Liliana Vess was spoiled without any rules context, many players figured out exactly how she worked without any official clarification. I think that's pretty cool. Players should never be punished for not knowing obscure technicalities. That's why mana burn and damage on the stack were removed, and the game has only gotten better because of it.
I'm one of the most cynical, most doomsaying people I know about Magic, and I still think this ruling is a very smart decision.
Players should never be punished for not knowing obscure technicalities. That's why mana burn and damage on the stack were removed, and the game has only gotten better because of it.
Completely disagree with that statement.
You're not punished for not knowing 'mana floating' or how to stack damage on any capacity. But knowing about them can really improve your game and gives you more options in a game. I think removing those two rules actually hurt the game more than helped it.
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Brian Tinsman, Set Designer :?mana::snow::snow:
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
Completely disagree with that statement.
You're not punished for not knowing 'mana floating' or how to stack damage on any capacity. But knowing about them can really improve your game and gives you more options in a game. I think removing those two rules actually hurt the game more than helped it.
No, you are punished if you attack your 2/2 into your oppoents' mog fanatic and don't know that trick to the rules. And no, removing that rule make the game more interesting and skill-intensive. DOTS was always the correct play, now you have a choice to make.
Judges have always ruled on intent regardless of the situation presented. I don't understand why this needed to be clarified other than the fact that a shady player was trying to bait a counter with his cavern of souls. Sure, the card requires a decision, but if i'm tapping a Cavern and its creature type is the same as the named card, its much more intuitive to assume i am making a colored mana than just assuming i am using its colorless ability. That is all the rule is doing.
The pronblem with Cavern of Souls is that neither mana ability affects the gamestate visibly. This is not true with painlands. With painlands, you can always tell which ability was activated by whether the player's life changed or not.
What about the Champions of Kamigawa allied land cycle then?
as a competitive player, stop being gigantic angle-shooting babies about this and learn to play better. if your Mana Leaks got even worse because you can't lawyer the situation to your advantage, run a better card.
PS: this is coming from a control and Delver player.
Take your monoblack deck, then set aside 14 swamps. Add 4 Creeping Tar Pits, 4 Darkslick Shores, 4 Drowned Catacombs, and 2 Jwar isle Refuge and add 4 Jace, the Mindsculptors. Your monoblack deck is instantly better. Better yet, drop those refuges, throw in some islands and some mana leaks, and lo and behold, you're now playing a real deck. Congratulations. Welcome to the world of competitive M:TG.
Eh. This rule change doesn't make any difference to me. I always spell out my activated abilities and point out that my creature is uncounterable. Of course, with 7 years of card game judging behind me, it becomes a habit to keep sharks from gaining an unfair upper hand.
Kind of seemed silly with the original ruling, and the new ruling makes it act properly. People wanting to really make MTG really clunky in design and play are surely upset, but for everyone who plays and enjoys the game without needing to take out a rules manual every game enjoys this change.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
I like this rules change; the previous ruling allowed for arbitrary "he said/she said". If a player was willing to lie and no one else was around before the judge was called then he could claim the opponent was not clear about the use of mana and essentially negate a cavern activation at a key moment.
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"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.'' -Mentat Creed
So I'm pretty sure this is actually the most ridiculous "Magic is dying" argument for the longest time. And to think, if they had just waited a little longer on the original ruling, people wouldn't be complaining (well, not complaining as much)
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I'll hold myself to this. I'll get fancy dishes and everything.
So this ruling basically says "We all know how players use Cavern of Souls. Since SOME PEOPLE are being pedantic douches, we are being forced to literally codify that 'players aren't completely stupid', so stop trying to argue they are. I hope you're all proud."
I don't see how anyone can be against this ruling. Activating mana abilities should be as transparent as possible, and requiring players to announce completely obvious mana abilities is a waste of everyone's time.
I don't know if the Kamigawa lands have an official ruling, but obviously you should play them as players using the colorless ability unless they have to (or explicitly indicate otherwise), since that is the 'well herp-derp, obviously everyone would always do this' way to play the card. Pain lands would work similarly. The default choice isn't the colorless ability. The default choice is what a player would almost always do. When your opponent announces "Lava Axe" you don't ask whether they are shooting themself in the face, do you? I would hope not.
So this ruling basically says "We all know how players use Cavern of Souls. Since SOME PEOPLE are being pedantic douches, we are being forced to literally codify that 'players aren't completely stupid', so stop trying to argue they are. I hope you're all proud."
I don't see how anyone can be against this ruling. Activating mana abilities should be as transparent as possible, and requiring players to announce completely obvious mana abilities is a waste of everyone's time.
I don't know if the Kamigawa lands have an official ruling, but obviously you should play them as players using the colorless ability unless they have to (or explicitly indicate otherwise), since that is the 'well herp-derp, obviously everyone would always do this' way to play the card. Pain lands would work similarly. The default choice isn't the colorless ability. The default choice is what a player would almost always do. When your opponent announces "Lava Axe" you don't ask whether they are shooting themself in the face, do you? I would hope not.
Well, I'll usually ask "target?" if someone is about the Lava Axe me for lethal, but only as a joke.
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I'll hold myself to this. I'll get fancy dishes and everything.
Well, I'll usually ask "target?" if someone is about the Lava Axe me for lethal, but only as a joke.
Well, if you want to be absolutely certain, then asking is the right thing to do. But you wouldn't go around claiming Lava Axe's default target is the player that controls it (because some other spells have a 'default target' of the controlling player), and that if no other target is announced, the player that controls it automatically takes 5 damage, no take-backs, neener-neener-neener. Those are the types of shenanigans this ruling is preventing.
I'm amazed that there's even a debate about this. If I have a Cavern of Souls and named giant with it, in what possible circumstance would I tap my cavern to cast a giant and not quite obviously be using the uncounterability function of the land?
Seriously people, get over it. No more griefing of noobs for you.
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Look at my name...what did you expect?
Thank you WOTC for introducing the Modern format, a format where all the whiners can enjoy a level playing field and where they can play with none of the best cards of all time!
Being unable to be countered doesn't mean it is an illegal target for Undermine.
Undermine will just fail to counter the spell, then you'll lose 3 life.
The issue this is presenting is that it's basically telling people that the optimal play should just be assumed, instead of telling the controller of the permanent that they have to announce what they are doing with the permanent, which is already a mandatory part of Magic anyways.
The problem here isn't so much the specific card involved but the precedent this is setting. It could cause issues later.
Legacy URDelverUR 11-2
M15 Limited format 32-7
They see me trollin...
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't calling a judge on trying to counter a creature because they didn't clarify the usage of CoS, prior to this change, get both players a warning for anything above the regular REL?
Standard
W.I.P.
EDH
WNorn Tokens
NEITHER of the CoS abilities are mandatory. If the game state is ambiguous, it is your DUTY to disambiguiate it. There is no default mode on CoS.
From your point of view, I guess:
- If you play a good aura while controlling only one creature without announcing target, then your opponent can force you to put the enchantment on his creature. Hey, you didn't announce the target, so the judge must choose the worst!
- If you play a counter in a counter war without explicitly saying what your target, then you target your own spell or previous counter. Worse target slected by default!
- Play a mill spell to kill your opp? Sorry, you just milled yourself! Ahaha!
Must be a bucket of fun to play against you.
Default assumptions have been a part of tournament magic for a very long time.
Got it. So not only does he lose 2 lives, he also gets a warning for not keeping track of game state. AmiRite? ;P
I'm one of the most cynical, most doomsaying people I know about Magic, and I still think this ruling is a very smart decision.
Completely disagree with that statement.
You're not punished for not knowing 'mana floating' or how to stack damage on any capacity. But knowing about them can really improve your game and gives you more options in a game. I think removing those two rules actually hurt the game more than helped it.
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
No, you are punished if you attack your 2/2 into your oppoents' mog fanatic and don't know that trick to the rules. And no, removing that rule make the game more interesting and skill-intensive. DOTS was always the correct play, now you have a choice to make.
Judges have always ruled on intent regardless of the situation presented. I don't understand why this needed to be clarified other than the fact that a shady player was trying to bait a counter with his cavern of souls. Sure, the card requires a decision, but if i'm tapping a Cavern and its creature type is the same as the named card, its much more intuitive to assume i am making a colored mana than just assuming i am using its colorless ability. That is all the rule is doing.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
What about the Champions of Kamigawa allied land cycle then?
PS: this is coming from a control and Delver player.
EDH is a CASUAL format. Get with the program, or GTFO.
More like Tranquil Garden et al.
I don't see how anyone can be against this ruling. Activating mana abilities should be as transparent as possible, and requiring players to announce completely obvious mana abilities is a waste of everyone's time.
I don't know if the Kamigawa lands have an official ruling, but obviously you should play them as players using the colorless ability unless they have to (or explicitly indicate otherwise), since that is the 'well herp-derp, obviously everyone would always do this' way to play the card. Pain lands would work similarly. The default choice isn't the colorless ability. The default choice is what a player would almost always do. When your opponent announces "Lava Axe" you don't ask whether they are shooting themself in the face, do you? I would hope not.
Well, I'll usually ask "target?" if someone is about the Lava Axe me for lethal, but only as a joke.
Well, if you want to be absolutely certain, then asking is the right thing to do. But you wouldn't go around claiming Lava Axe's default target is the player that controls it (because some other spells have a 'default target' of the controlling player), and that if no other target is announced, the player that controls it automatically takes 5 damage, no take-backs, neener-neener-neener. Those are the types of shenanigans this ruling is preventing.
A ruling like this seems like all upside to me.
Seriously people, get over it. No more griefing of noobs for you.
Thank you WOTC for introducing the Modern format, a format where all the whiners can enjoy a level playing field and where they can play with none of the best cards of all time!
you're on 3 life and know your opponent holds Undermine while controlling a Vexing Shusher, and you hold a Counterspell
Being unable to be countered doesn't mean it is an illegal target for Undermine.
Undermine will just fail to counter the spell, then you'll lose 3 life.