What I have a problem with is them saying "here's the ruling... no, wait, here's the ruling instead!"
Note to WotC, the DCI, R&D, T&A, UAW, whatever letters you have working on this thing - ONE RULING. Would it have been that hard to get your initial ruling in mind, then talk to a few more people about it before making the announcement? Issuing 2 conflicting rulings on a card in such a short time period only causes confusion to players and makes for a bad situation.
This can't be helped. A discussion, and a very lengthy one at that, was traversed to arrive at ruling #1.
The new ruling comes at the request of R&D, and is a result of their own intentions for the card.
As the DCI and WotC aren't intrinsically linked at every possible position, some miscommunication is going to happen. Hopefully working through this ruling chnge isn't too difficult for your stores and playgroups
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[box][box][size=3][b]CARDNAME[/b][/size] [float=right][mana]MANACOST[/mana][/float][/box]
[box][b]TYPE — SUBTYPE [float=right][color="RARITYCOLOUR"]{RARITY}[/color][/b][/float][/box][box]RULES TEXT
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That ruling got repealed almost immediately. So yeah...
(Unless I'm totally mistaken. For some reason, I remember the general backlash causing them to be all like "Ohh yeah, sorry we changed fundamental ways that cards work in different levels of play. That was actually really dumb in retrospect." But I might have dreamed common sense, and boy what an optimistic dream that is.)
Either way, your argument is only relevant at the highest levels of play where a minimal percent of players actually compete. To the vast, vast majority of players, SGC's ability is mandatory.
This is a rules change? Its like saying backseat driving is a law change for speed limit signs.
The design shouldn't have included the {t}: Add 1 ability.
Actually, it is critical that the design did include that ability. Otherwise the usage of this land would have dropped significantly due to being a dead land drop for other spells. The issue is there is no "default" ability, so when someone taps a land for mana with 2 types of abilities that could apply to that spell, they are simply making a ruling in that case, that the default is the better of the two abilities.
Well doesn't this stop people from rule sharking you? I had this incident happen a lot in my FNMs.
Player One: Puts down Cavern of Souls forgets to name creature type (Plays all humans). Tap two plains and Cavern to bring out Mirran Crusader.
Player Two: COUNTER IT! with disspate Player One: WTF it says uncounterable?! Player Two: Didnt name a creature type!!!
Is it the job of the other player too to ask what the person using Cavern for?
Yes. The replacement effect isn't an optional ruling, they have to name a creature type. If neither player can remember what the type was they will both get warnings for Failure to Maintain Game State and the game likely rewound if possible. It's not a good idea to try and bait your opponent into missing mandatory triggers and effects, people have been disqualified for it in the past.
Ehh, relatively pointless decision, considering that's how the card was intended and how it was played.
I say this is basically identical to Hero of Bladehold. Yes, you have to know to stack the triggers right, and yes you have to know that you can't use the colorless ability to get an uncounterable guy. Nobody gets pedantic about Hero (not after the first week of it being legal, anyway), so why should they get up in arms about this?
+1 to this and all of this poster's comments on this thread.
Overall it is disappointing when I see threads with so many comments on how we should be able to take advantage of obvious details that weren't clearly announced verbatim. Or more specifically, why in those cases it would be any more right to assume they used a lesser ability over a stronger ability when there is no default.
No one wants to play a game where every other spell starts with "Activating Cavern of Souls for Blue Mana to cast a Wizards spell which will then be uncounterable" the same way we don't want to hear "Activating Cavern of Souls for colorless mana". With ambiguous cases like this you should always want to assume your opponent did the best possible thing - who wants to win or lose on a silly land technicality?
That ruling got repealed almost immediately. So yeah...
Yes. But then a new version of the IPG was released. Siege-Gang Commander has a Lapsing ability. At a Competitive REL event, if you miss the trigger, it's gone.
I recommend reading up on Lapsing Abilities so you don't look so unaware on a public forum. There are several easy-to-read articles on how they work if you're interested in that aspect of the rules.
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Not anymore.
Which is why I have a problem with this ruling. Lapsing triggers as well as old fashioned "may" abilities like echo make it so that the default position is the non beneficial one. This ruling makes the default position the beneficial one, and I do not like the inconsistency.
The default is the one that doesn't require any input. Not having the tokens or not paying the cost are both the default because they don't require any additional action. With Cavern both choices require no input, so the default is set to what is going to be the choice 95% of the time. With SGC you show that you are resolving the trigger by putting tokens into play, you don't have to state outright that you are doing so as it resolves. Cavern lets you streamline the game, there isn't any action you're not performing, you tapped the land.
Yes. But then a new version of the IPG was released. Siege-Gang Commander has a Lapsing ability. At a Competitive REL event, if you miss the trigger, it's gone.
I recommend reading up on Lapsing Abilities so you don't look so unaware on a public forum. There are several easy-to-read articles on how they work if you're interested in that aspect of the rules.
Read my updated comment. I read up on it as soon as it was released, and then found out that it was repealed. I didn't realize that it had been...un-repealed? Honest mistake. And hey, I'd rather look unaware than pedantic. That's not passive-aggression at you, just half of this completely useless argument.
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Brunal Legend | Hazezon First | Cirrhosis of the Sliver | Animar Planet | The Joy of Pain-ting
Read my updated comment. I read up on it as soon as it was released, and then found out that it was repealed. I didn't realize that it had been...un-repealed? Honest mistake. And hey, I'd rather look unaware than pedantic. That's not passive-aggression at you, just half of this completely useless argument.
Good on you
Not 'un-repealed', just fixed and clarified.
Remember, if you have a rules question at any time (not just during a tournament), contact a Judge. They'll be more than happy to help you with any questions you have. That's the point of the program
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[box][box][size=3][b]CARDNAME[/b][/size] [float=right][mana]MANACOST[/mana][/float][/box]
[box][b]TYPE — SUBTYPE [float=right][color="RARITYCOLOUR"]{RARITY}[/color][/b][/float][/box][box]RULES TEXT
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Cavern of Souls
Land (R)
As Cavern of Souls enters the battlefield, name a creature type. Creature spells of the chosen type you cast using mana produced by Cavern of Souls can't be countered.
:symtap:: Add to your mana pool.
:symtap:: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast a creature of the chosen type.
Looking at the frame, I guess it's possible this wouldn't have fit, but it does appear to be what they intended.
For the grumblers: I guess I don't get it. They were clearly trying to push the uncounterability aspect over the fixing aspect of the card, so why the big surprise that they closed the loophole? Do you double-check what color mana your opponent made every time that tap a dual land unless they don't have enough of one color of mana? Since it never matters then, it shouldn't matter now.
This makes me feel like bad players were so giddy that they had one of the most broken lands in recent memory on the battlefield that they forgot to use its ability and their Prime Time was STILL countered. Since bad players can't be expected to get any better, Wizards decided to coddle them with this rules change.
There's a difference between "forgetting" something, and not specifically announcing your exact every move when it's obvious what you're doing. This game has shortcuts built into it that get used all the time, especially when it comes to tapping lands for mana.
Had it not been for the previous ruling I certainly would have assumed that saying somethingn like "tap Cavern of Souls" and playing the correct creature type would be sufficient to communicate my intention. Just like tapping any other land and playing a spell is sufficient to communicate that I am tapping colors correctly. Under normal circumstances it is not assumed that I tap for incorrect mana unless I specifically announce it, so why should this be different? Glad to see that they got the ruling correct eventually.
No.
if someone [REDACTED] up like that, I keep my mouth shut and do as I please (unless it's a casual game).
If you don't have your deck on lockdown and are just assuming people can read your mind in a competitive environment, you deserve to get some flack.
Another fun thing: It's not my job to keep track of your life total for you. And when I do, don't constantly question it; just buy a 25 cent die you cheapskate.
I say this mostly because I'm tired of being the 'nice guy' and giving people a second chance for small things than end up directly costing me the game. No one ever does this crap for me, so screw it.
I'm pretty sure you have to say something unless the ability says "You may..." if it says "when this permanent comes into play, do X" it is the responsibility of both players to make sure that that ability happens.
who wants to win or lose on a silly land technicality?
You would be surprised how many sad people that play this game insist on winning on such technicalities. I understand that playing this game at a competitive level where thousands of dollars are at stake is one thing, but going to an FNM I expect adept players to help other less-skilled players play the game correctly instead of giving them the screw through either not maintaining game state or shoving a counter in their face and pointing at the second ability distastefully.
The seemed like a wonderful annocument when I first read it and found the original ruling to be stupid, though justified, though after reading this topic, I have one question.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
The seemed like a wonderful annocument when I first read it and found the original ruling to be stupid, though justified, though after reading this topic, I have one question.
Well if you ask me, according to 5 pages, it will totally be cheating because I am a terrible person that deserves to be disbard from magic forever because I am the devil.
BUT, that person still needs to tell you what the card's doing due to the variables. Even if not you'll know one way or the other. (context and all)
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Brian Tinsman, Set Designer :?mana::snow::snow:
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
This was a good decision. It's annoying when you don't know or not if a person is tapping it correctly (such as you didn't hear them clearly, or they tapped, THEN said it, etc.) I'm not the type to cause someone a penalty for not doing it correctly according to Magic semantics, and this frees me up from any obligation to do so.
Well if you ask me, according to 5 pages, it will totally be cheating because I am a terrible person that deserves to be disbard from magic forever because I am the devil.
BUT, that person still needs to tell you what the card's doing due to the variables. Even if not you'll know one way or the other. (context and all)
It's not so much that you're a terrible person, just that each option you described in your scenarios resulted in cheating or a total lack of understanding the current rules of Magic.
What a bunch of babies! NO seriously. You all think that winning because your opponent doesn't say EVERY TIME I'm tapping this for colored mana is the right play? Should I declare EVERY time I tap a land. I'm making a black mana with my swamp. I'm making another black mana with this swamp. Now I'm making a red mana with this mountain. That's just stupid. Why would the default use be the worst possible use??? I think some people just want to win by being "more technical" and not by being the better player.
It's not so much that you're a terrible person, just that each option you described in your scenarios resulted in cheating or a total lack of understanding the current rules of Magic.
I haven't really played competitively and thus aggressively like that since Ravnica 1 was in standard.
And even then people where doing that kind of stuff all over the place in the tournaments I played and even my buds during practice T2 games. Sort of a "if you don't know the deck you're playing, tough stuff" attitude that my usual group had not to mention just about everyone else it seemed.
It made us all a lot more attentive to what cards actually said and how they played.
These days, I guess not so much, at least on here.
Casual games or release parties, who cares, as long as everyone has fun.
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Brian Tinsman, Set Designer :?mana::snow::snow:
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
This is perfectly reasonable. You don't berate another player for not tapping the right colored mana for spells cast off of dual lands do you??
So why would you ever assume a player is not using his lands optimally?
I think arguing against this reversal is just strong hater-aid.
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Standard:
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
What happens when people tap painlands for colorless cards? "Oh, you didn't mention you used the first ability, so let's assume you used the second, better ability. Well, that's one life less for you...".
This is actually more of a reason for the change in ruling. Your example proves the number of shortcuts that people take when tapping mana, and they always choose the "mode" that is best for them at that time. CoS was designed in such a way that one "mode" was better than the other in all ways possible when casting a certain type of creature. That should be the default based on all normal logic, regardless of what the actual rules say.
The card was templated wrong, and they have admitted as such. This change in policy just makes the card work they way it should work 99% of the time. I guess you could think of this more as an errata than a change in rules.
What happens when people tap painlands for colorless cards? "Oh, you didn't mention you used the first ability, so let's assume you used the second, better ability. Well, that's one life less for you..."
In competitive, you can call the judge if a player skips such a decision. If the judge gives some kind of penalty, assuming the player skipped on purpose or simply because that player did make a mistake, I think that player will try to avoid that in the future by playing correctly.
If the player doesn't need the colored mana why would you assume he took damage? Thats ridiculous.
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Standard:
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
I always declare what colours I am producing, for example if I want to cast a primeval titan I will say out loud "green green and 4" and indicate where the 2 green came from.
Why do you do that? Does it prove to the experienced person across from you that you know the basic rules of Magic? Or does it prove that you're a rules nazi that likes to win and lose on technicality?
I honestly don't get why people try to be as formal as possible with the most mundane actions of magic. Sure, call the creature type at the beginning, that's a given. But anything else is just silly rules lawyering.
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SOI!!
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This can't be helped. A discussion, and a very lengthy one at that, was traversed to arrive at ruling #1.
The new ruling comes at the request of R&D, and is a result of their own intentions for the card.
As the DCI and WotC aren't intrinsically linked at every possible position, some miscommunication is going to happen. Hopefully working through this ruling chnge isn't too difficult for your stores and playgroups
Level 1 Judge
That ruling got repealed almost immediately. So yeah...
(Unless I'm totally mistaken. For some reason, I remember the general backlash causing them to be all like "Ohh yeah, sorry we changed fundamental ways that cards work in different levels of play. That was actually really dumb in retrospect." But I might have dreamed common sense, and boy what an optimistic dream that is.)
Either way, your argument is only relevant at the highest levels of play where a minimal percent of players actually compete. To the vast, vast majority of players, SGC's ability is mandatory.
Actually, it is critical that the design did include that ability. Otherwise the usage of this land would have dropped significantly due to being a dead land drop for other spells. The issue is there is no "default" ability, so when someone taps a land for mana with 2 types of abilities that could apply to that spell, they are simply making a ruling in that case, that the default is the better of the two abilities.
Yes. The replacement effect isn't an optional ruling, they have to name a creature type. If neither player can remember what the type was they will both get warnings for Failure to Maintain Game State and the game likely rewound if possible. It's not a good idea to try and bait your opponent into missing mandatory triggers and effects, people have been disqualified for it in the past.
+1 to this and all of this poster's comments on this thread.
Overall it is disappointing when I see threads with so many comments on how we should be able to take advantage of obvious details that weren't clearly announced verbatim. Or more specifically, why in those cases it would be any more right to assume they used a lesser ability over a stronger ability when there is no default.
No one wants to play a game where every other spell starts with "Activating Cavern of Souls for Blue Mana to cast a Wizards spell which will then be uncounterable" the same way we don't want to hear "Activating Cavern of Souls for colorless mana". With ambiguous cases like this you should always want to assume your opponent did the best possible thing - who wants to win or lose on a silly land technicality?
Yes. But then a new version of the IPG was released. Siege-Gang Commander has a Lapsing ability. At a Competitive REL event, if you miss the trigger, it's gone.
I recommend reading up on Lapsing Abilities so you don't look so unaware on a public forum. There are several easy-to-read articles on how they work if you're interested in that aspect of the rules.
Level 1 Judge
The default is the one that doesn't require any input. Not having the tokens or not paying the cost are both the default because they don't require any additional action. With Cavern both choices require no input, so the default is set to what is going to be the choice 95% of the time. With SGC you show that you are resolving the trigger by putting tokens into play, you don't have to state outright that you are doing so as it resolves. Cavern lets you streamline the game, there isn't any action you're not performing, you tapped the land.
Read my updated comment. I read up on it as soon as it was released, and then found out that it was repealed. I didn't realize that it had been...un-repealed? Honest mistake. And hey, I'd rather look unaware than pedantic. That's not passive-aggression at you, just half of this completely useless argument.
Good on you
Not 'un-repealed', just fixed and clarified.
Remember, if you have a rules question at any time (not just during a tournament), contact a Judge. They'll be more than happy to help you with any questions you have. That's the point of the program
Level 1 Judge
Land (R)
As Cavern of Souls enters the battlefield, name a creature type. Creature spells of the chosen type you cast using mana produced by Cavern of Souls can't be countered.
:symtap:: Add to your mana pool.
:symtap:: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast a creature of the chosen type.
Looking at the frame, I guess it's possible this wouldn't have fit, but it does appear to be what they intended.
For the grumblers: I guess I don't get it. They were clearly trying to push the uncounterability aspect over the fixing aspect of the card, so why the big surprise that they closed the loophole? Do you double-check what color mana your opponent made every time that tap a dual land unless they don't have enough of one color of mana? Since it never matters then, it shouldn't matter now.
There's a difference between "forgetting" something, and not specifically announcing your exact every move when it's obvious what you're doing. This game has shortcuts built into it that get used all the time, especially when it comes to tapping lands for mana.
Had it not been for the previous ruling I certainly would have assumed that saying somethingn like "tap Cavern of Souls" and playing the correct creature type would be sufficient to communicate my intention. Just like tapping any other land and playing a spell is sufficient to communicate that I am tapping colors correctly. Under normal circumstances it is not assumed that I tap for incorrect mana unless I specifically announce it, so why should this be different? Glad to see that they got the ruling correct eventually.
But they aren't keeping track of their own life.
In casual, if someone asks me their life total because they aren't keeping track, my answer is always the same: 0, you die.
It's amazing how quick they calculate their life after hearing this.
On Modern Masters 2:
Will be kept until 12/31/2013 to prove if Right or Wrong.Proven right 1/27/2013Casual is absolutely irrelevant in a discussion about MTR and IPG isn't it? As for saying 0 immediately in a casual game, what's the point?
I'm pretty sure you have to say something unless the ability says "You may..." if it says "when this permanent comes into play, do X" it is the responsibility of both players to make sure that that ability happens.
You would be surprised how many sad people that play this game insist on winning on such technicalities. I understand that playing this game at a competitive level where thousands of dollars are at stake is one thing, but going to an FNM I expect adept players to help other less-skilled players play the game correctly instead of giving them the screw through either not maintaining game state or shoving a counter in their face and pointing at the second ability distastefully.
What is the current ruling if I cast Firespout with 3 Rootbound Crags and say nothing?
MOD::symw::symu::symb: Gifts
LEG::symg::symb: Infect
Well if you ask me, according to 5 pages, it will totally be cheating because I am a terrible person that deserves to be disbard from magic forever because I am the devil.
BUT, that person still needs to tell you what the card's doing due to the variables. Even if not you'll know one way or the other. (context and all)
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
It's not so much that you're a terrible person, just that each option you described in your scenarios resulted in cheating or a total lack of understanding the current rules of Magic.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
In casual, I'd simply stop playing with you. I'm a real fan of a relaxed, friendly environment.
I'm a Spike Vorthos - I love lore and flavor, but only if the cards are competition worthy.
I haven't really played competitively and thus aggressively like that since Ravnica 1 was in standard.
And even then people where doing that kind of stuff all over the place in the tournaments I played and even my buds during practice T2 games. Sort of a "if you don't know the deck you're playing, tough stuff" attitude that my usual group had not to mention just about everyone else it seemed.
It made us all a lot more attentive to what cards actually said and how they played.
These days, I guess not so much, at least on here.
Casual games or release parties, who cares, as long as everyone has fun.
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
So why would you ever assume a player is not using his lands optimally?
I think arguing against this reversal is just strong hater-aid.
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
This is actually more of a reason for the change in ruling. Your example proves the number of shortcuts that people take when tapping mana, and they always choose the "mode" that is best for them at that time. CoS was designed in such a way that one "mode" was better than the other in all ways possible when casting a certain type of creature. That should be the default based on all normal logic, regardless of what the actual rules say.
The card was templated wrong, and they have admitted as such. This change in policy just makes the card work they way it should work 99% of the time. I guess you could think of this more as an errata than a change in rules.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
If the player doesn't need the colored mana why would you assume he took damage? Thats ridiculous.
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
Why do you do that? Does it prove to the experienced person across from you that you know the basic rules of Magic? Or does it prove that you're a rules nazi that likes to win and lose on technicality?
I honestly don't get why people try to be as formal as possible with the most mundane actions of magic. Sure, call the creature type at the beginning, that's a given. But anything else is just silly rules lawyering.