So, R&D has had lengthy discussions about Cavern of Souls. The card's templating is unique; there hasn't ever been a card before that has two invisible effects that have such different implications for the game state, and that wasn't anticipated before release. Given the problems that it causes, I suspect it'll be the last to use this template.
In the end, the original designer intent of the card was that it always applied when you cast a spell with the appropriate type, whether you had actually remembered to activate it properly or not. Because of this, they've asked us to reconsider the ruling that you need to announce Cavern of Souls if you want the spell to be counterable.
We're sympathetic to their desires and, as I said in the previous mail, there were arguments to be made for both sides, even if philosophy supported the original interpretation better. As a result, we're reversing the ruling. If a Cavern of Souls gets tapped for the appropriate creature type, the spell is uncounterable whether they say anything or not. We'd still prefer that players be clear about the game state, of course.
There'll probably be a bunch of confusion about this initially. We did a good job (I think) of getting the word out the first time around, so it'll take a while to educate everyone about the reverse. I'd strongly encourage everyone to make reminder announcements at their events for the next few. I know I will be at the start of GP:Anaheim!
Unique and messy cards are, fortunately, few and far between, and tournament-playable ones are rarer still. Apologies for the confusion, and hopefully this uses up the allocation for the next several years!
So basically, if you ever play with Cavern of Souls and you tap it for a creature of the given creature type, it is now assumed that you tapped Cavern for the uncounterable ability.
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So we're rewarding players for forgetting to use the strictly better of the two abilities?
We're sympathetic to their desires and, as I said in the previous mail, there were arguments to be made for both sides, even if philosophy supported the original interpretation better. As a result, we're reversing the ruling.
Does anyone know where I can find what he is referring too? I'd be interested in seeing what arguments could be made for allowing players to forget abilities.
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Originally Posted by Massive Marc
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
So we're rewarding players for forgetting to use the strictly better of the two abilities?
Does anyone know where I can find what he is referring too? I'd be interested in seeing what arguments could be made for allowing players to forget abilities.
He is referring to the original D&D interpretation. They printed the card for a specific reason, so the rules should not co-opt the reason the card was printed in the first place.
Well doesn't this stop people from rule sharking you? I had this incident happen a lot in my FNMs.
Player One: Puts down Cavern of Souls forgets to name creature type (Plays all humans). Tap two plains and Cavern to bring out Mirran Crusader.
Player Two: COUNTER IT! with disspate
Player One: WTF it says uncounterable?!
Player Two: Didnt name a creature type!!!
Is it the job of the other player too to ask what the person using Cavern for?
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To the people that say that a card needs to be a higher rarity because of Limited... I hate you guys so much. I present to you with this.
Well doesn't this stop people from rule sharking you? I had this incident happen a lot in my FNMs.
Player One: Puts down Cavern of Souls forgets to name creature type (Plays all humans). Tap two plains and Cavern to bring out Mirran Crusader.
Player Two: COUNTER IT! with disspate
Player One: WTF it says uncounterable?!
Player Two: Didnt name a creature type!!!
Is it the job of the other player too to ask what the person using Cavern for?
No.
if someone [REDACTED] up like that, I keep my mouth shut and do as I please (unless it's a casual game).
If you don't have your deck on lockdown and are just assuming people can read your mind in a competitive environment, you deserve to get some flack.
Another fun thing: It's not my job to keep track of your life total for you. And when I do, don't constantly question it; just buy a 25 cent die you cheapskate.
I say this mostly because I'm tired of being the 'nice guy' and giving people a second chance for small things than end up directly costing me the game. No one ever does this crap for me, so screw it.
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer :?mana::snow::snow:
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
Another fun thing: It's not my job to keep track of your life total for you. And when I do, don't constantly question it; just buy a 25 cent die you cheapskate.
I think it is actually your job. Both players should keep track of both life totals.
I think it is actually your job. Both players should keep track of both life totals.
It's a good idea to keep track yes, but it's not my exclusive job description to keep track of it for you because you can't be bothered to do it yourself.
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Brian Tinsman, Set Designer :?mana::snow::snow:
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block. "Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
This is a rules change? Its like saying backseat driving is a law change for speed limit signs.
The design shouldn't have included the {t}: Add 1 ability.
As has been stated in the message from toby the templating has caused a lot of issues. As has also been said the intent was for it to work in a particular way, which in this case happens to be very similar to boseiju's ability. Previously it had been ruled that the default use for any activation of cavern was the colorless ability, but due to the discussions that Toby had with R&D about intent behind the design the ruling was changed to come in line with the original design intent. (that was basically just a rehash of what toby said I think)
It's a good idea to keep track yes, but it's not my exclusive job description to keep track of it for you because you can't be bothered to do it yourself.
While each player is responsible for their own life totals, it is not part of the MTR that all life total changes need to be announced, and each player must keep track of their life total. So you can't just ignore a life total change and hope they forgot about it just to take advantage of it later on...that is bordering on Cheating - Fraud.
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Ehh, relatively pointless decision, considering that's how the card was intended and how it was played.
I say this is basically identical to Hero of Bladehold. Yes, you have to know to stack the triggers right, and yes you have to know that you can't use the colorless ability to get an uncounterable guy. Nobody gets pedantic about Hero (not after the first week of it being legal, anyway), so why should they get up in arms about this?
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I'm more interested in the process; the original decision came from a number of lengthy discussions among high level judges, leading to the previous "If you're ambiguous, you don't get what you may have wanted" Cavern of Souls policy. Have we now established that R&D can appeal/'overrule' those decisions--or were they just not consulted during the original discussion, leading to the reversal? This is the second time in a year we've seen rules changes reversed/corrected after being publicly announced (what's now the 'lapsing trigger' rules change was the first).
I think player reaction might have an effect as well. Both statements had quite a few players speaking out against them. Since the stance is that rules should operate in the most intuitive way, having players say the change is counter-intuitive should be taken into account.
Ehh, relatively pointless decision, considering that's how the card was intended and how it was played.
I say this is basically identical to Hero of Bladehold. Yes, you have to know to stack the triggers right, and yes you have to know that you can't use the colorless ability to get an uncounterable guy. Nobody gets pedantic about Hero (not after the first week of it being legal, anyway), so why should they get up in arms about this?
By hero of bladehold i'm guessing you're talking about the assumption that Battle Cry trigger goes on stack first, than the 2 soldiers tapped and attacking goes on it next?
No.
if someone [REDACTED] up like that, I keep my mouth shut and do as I please (unless it's a casual game).
If you do that intentionally, at ANY rules enforcement level, that's Cheating - Fraud, and a disqualification.
Cavern of Souls *must* name a creature type. If it is discovered in the above manner as someone is casting a creature and the CoS has no named type, then the following happens:
Regular REL: A creature type is named then, and the game is backed up to before the counterspell was cast. Both players are reminded to play the game more thoroughly.
Competitive/Professional REL: A creature type is named for Cavern of Souls. The owner of the Cavern gets a Warning for GPE - Game Rule Violation, and the other player gets GPE - Failure to Maintain Game State, unless he let the cavern hit play without a type intentionally, which as mentioned above is a DQ for cheating.
While each player is responsible for their own life totals, it is not part of the MTR that all life total changes need to be announced, and each player must keep track of their life total.
It is part of the MTR as of March 20th.
2.13 - "A change in a player's life total should be accompanied by a verbal announcement by that player of the new life total. If a player notices a discrepancy in a recorded or announced life total, he is expected to point it out as soon as the discrepancy is noticed. Failure to do so will be considered a Cheating - Fraud penalty."
Well doesn't this stop people from rule sharking you? I had this incident happen a lot in my FNMs.
Player One: Puts down Cavern of Souls forgets to name creature type (Plays all humans). Tap two plains and Cavern to bring out Mirran Crusader.
Player Two: COUNTER IT! with disspate
Player One: WTF it says uncounterable?!
Player Two: Didnt name a creature type!!!
Is it the job of the other player too to ask what the person using Cavern for?
The more realistic ruling came up at the pro tour. Person A named the creature type hes casting with the cavern but did not announce he was tapping the cavern for colored mana, he had the correct colors without the cavern to cast the spell. The original ruling on the card was that you needed to tap the land for a color to get the uncounterable interaction with the spell as the land also has "tap:get a colorless mana". Its arguable that without announcing the color/uncounterable part of the cavern that you wished to not use it.
This change is idiotic but fallows with the idiot proofing they are doing to magic. It started when they changed with damage on the stack, now they don't want players to be able to misplay an ability. I'm assuming well see come into play abilities not be able to be responded to shortly...hell kinda already have that in the form of soulbound.
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I will play what wins, not what is convenient. Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters. I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity. Style points do not appear on tournament reports. A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win. I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him. Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
For Hero, most players shortcut to the tokens, on the field and attacking, with the bonus, which explicitly demonstrates how the triggers were ordered. The Cavern of Souls is distinctly different, because it requires both players to remember a piece of information, and it has two different abilities that can be used in the same situation. There is no "trick" to it, other than someone being lazy.
The new rule is for the lazy players, because tailoring to them always helps smooth the game, and makes it both easier to grok and easier to play.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
This change is idiotic but fallows with the idiot proofing they are doing to magic.
This is just hyperbole. I'd agree with you if Cavern, AS PRINTED, had a "default" ability. It does not. When a player taps it for mana without announcing which ability they are using (which they SHOULD be announcing, certainly), assuming either COULD have been used, there is no way to justify defaulting to either ability based on the card text and existing rules. The only solution is for judges to come up with a new ruling, and it can really only be one of three things:
1) Back the game up and make Cavern's controller specify which ability they're using.
2) Default to first ability.
3) Default to second ability.
Original ruling was (2), new ruling is (3), and I defy anyone to give a rational argument for why (3) is any more "idiotic" than (2) was. Certainly people can argue which is better, but "idiotic"? Come on. Either way, you're CREATING a new default out of whole cloth, because the card doesn't provide one.
Really, the cogent arguments for (2) come down to "Players should maintain a clear game state, so we should punish players who create ambiguity" and "Option 2 prevents any 'hide my cavern in a stack of lands' shenanigans."
The arguments for (3) are "The second ability is going to be player intent literally ~99.99% of the time, so if we're going to invent a 'default' ability it should be the actual default" and "Making players announce their caverns every time is tedious and wastes time."
Reasonable people can disagree on which is preferable, but equating either with "dumbing down the game" or "playing your cards for you" is silly. Defaulting to either ability is "playing your cards for you", because the card makes no provision for a player failing to announce their choice.
The more realistic ruling came up at the pro tour. Person A named the creature type hes casting with the cavern but did not announce he was tapping the cavern for colored mana, he had the correct colors without the cavern to cast the spell. The original ruling on the card was that you needed to tap the land for a color to get the uncounterable interaction with the spell as the land also has "tap:get a colorless mana". Its arguable that without announcing the color/uncounterable part of the cavern that you wished to not use it.
This change is idiotic but fallows with the idiot proofing they are doing to magic. It started when they changed with damage on the stack, now they don't want players to be able to misplay an ability. I'm assuming well see come into play abilities not be able to be responded to shortly...hell kinda already have that in the form of soulbound.
How does soulbound have anything to do with not being able to respond to comes-into-play abilities? You can respond to soulbound trigger when a creature comes into play.
This isn't about idiot-proofing anything, this is about doing what is intuitive. What happened is two players were playing, one used a cavern of souls to produce mana that could be coloured or colourless to pay for the spell, the opponent attempted to counter and a judge was called.
The original ruling was that if you could use the colourless option and didn't specify that you were using the coloured option then it was assumed that you were using the option for colourless mana. That ruling has been reversed. Now if you do not declare that you're not using the colourless ability it's assumed that you're using the coloured ability (unless of course you're playing an ability that you can't play for the coloured ability, then we assume you used the colourless ability).
This is not dumbing down. If a player doesn't specify, the judge has to say which. The judges are telling you right now that if the player did not specify we will be ruling that they used the coloured ability, which is most likely what they wanted to do anyways.
When a player neglects to use an ability, the default option, shouldn't be "that player used the ability, because it was obvious that he should have done so"
Sorry for wanting to punish players for not declaring abilities.
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Originally Posted by Massive Marc
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
So basically, if you ever play with Cavern of Souls and you tap it for a creature of the given creature type, it is now assumed that you tapped Cavern for the uncounterable ability.
Source:http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/u25wo/cavern_of_souls_and_you_official_ruling_has/
And confirmed by trickjarrrett and the Magic Judges twitter account.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
it's more power (just a tiny bit, I admit, but it's still a bit annoying)
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Does anyone know where I can find what he is referring too? I'd be interested in seeing what arguments could be made for allowing players to forget abilities.
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
He is referring to the original D&D interpretation. They printed the card for a specific reason, so the rules should not co-opt the reason the card was printed in the first place.
Check out http://www.mtgbrodeals.com/author/john-murphy/ for my EDH articles!
Player One: Puts down Cavern of Souls forgets to name creature type (Plays all humans). Tap two plains and Cavern to bring out Mirran Crusader.
Player Two: COUNTER IT! with disspate
Player One: WTF it says uncounterable?!
Player Two: Didnt name a creature type!!!
Is it the job of the other player too to ask what the person using Cavern for?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY8h2vp5Xis
No.
if someone [REDACTED] up like that, I keep my mouth shut and do as I please (unless it's a casual game).
If you don't have your deck on lockdown and are just assuming people can read your mind in a competitive environment, you deserve to get some flack.
Another fun thing: It's not my job to keep track of your life total for you. And when I do, don't constantly question it; just buy a 25 cent die you cheapskate.
I say this mostly because I'm tired of being the 'nice guy' and giving people a second chance for small things than end up directly costing me the game. No one ever does this crap for me, so screw it.
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
I think it is actually your job. Both players should keep track of both life totals.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
The design shouldn't have included the {t}: Add 1 ability.
It's a good idea to keep track yes, but it's not my exclusive job description to keep track of it for you because you can't be bothered to do it yourself.
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
As has been stated in the message from toby the templating has caused a lot of issues. As has also been said the intent was for it to work in a particular way, which in this case happens to be very similar to boseiju's ability. Previously it had been ruled that the default use for any activation of cavern was the colorless ability, but due to the discussions that Toby had with R&D about intent behind the design the ruling was changed to come in line with the original design intent. (that was basically just a rehash of what toby said I think)
While each player is responsible for their own life totals, it is not part of the MTR that all life total changes need to be announced, and each player must keep track of their life total. So you can't just ignore a life total change and hope they forgot about it just to take advantage of it later on...that is bordering on Cheating - Fraud.
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Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
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I say this is basically identical to Hero of Bladehold. Yes, you have to know to stack the triggers right, and yes you have to know that you can't use the colorless ability to get an uncounterable guy. Nobody gets pedantic about Hero (not after the first week of it being legal, anyway), so why should they get up in arms about this?
By hero of bladehold i'm guessing you're talking about the assumption that Battle Cry trigger goes on stack first, than the 2 soldiers tapped and attacking goes on it next?
If you do that intentionally, at ANY rules enforcement level, that's Cheating - Fraud, and a disqualification.
Cavern of Souls *must* name a creature type. If it is discovered in the above manner as someone is casting a creature and the CoS has no named type, then the following happens:
Regular REL: A creature type is named then, and the game is backed up to before the counterspell was cast. Both players are reminded to play the game more thoroughly.
Competitive/Professional REL: A creature type is named for Cavern of Souls. The owner of the Cavern gets a Warning for GPE - Game Rule Violation, and the other player gets GPE - Failure to Maintain Game State, unless he let the cavern hit play without a type intentionally, which as mentioned above is a DQ for cheating.
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"Play Primeval Titan with Cavern of Souls colorless mana"?
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It is part of the MTR as of March 20th.
2.13 - "A change in a player's life total should be accompanied by a verbal announcement by that player of the new life total. If a player notices a discrepancy in a recorded or announced life total, he is expected to point it out as soon as the discrepancy is noticed. Failure to do so will be considered a Cheating - Fraud penalty."
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The more realistic ruling came up at the pro tour. Person A named the creature type hes casting with the cavern but did not announce he was tapping the cavern for colored mana, he had the correct colors without the cavern to cast the spell. The original ruling on the card was that you needed to tap the land for a color to get the uncounterable interaction with the spell as the land also has "tap:get a colorless mana". Its arguable that without announcing the color/uncounterable part of the cavern that you wished to not use it.
This change is idiotic but fallows with the idiot proofing they are doing to magic. It started when they changed with damage on the stack, now they don't want players to be able to misplay an ability. I'm assuming well see come into play abilities not be able to be responded to shortly...hell kinda already have that in the form of soulbound.
Personal preference is nothing, The win is all that matters.
I will netdeck at every opportunity, but I will not let that stifle my creativity.
Style points do not appear on tournament reports.
A good deck with an incompetent pilot is nothing more than a dressed up match win.
I will crush my opponent mercilessly, and expect no less from him.
Victory is its own reward, The prize is just a bonus.
Legacy is dying
(see the fiasco with lapsed triggers)
I kind of can't believe he still has his position.
The new rule is for the lazy players, because tailoring to them always helps smooth the game, and makes it both easier to grok and easier to play.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
This is just hyperbole. I'd agree with you if Cavern, AS PRINTED, had a "default" ability. It does not. When a player taps it for mana without announcing which ability they are using (which they SHOULD be announcing, certainly), assuming either COULD have been used, there is no way to justify defaulting to either ability based on the card text and existing rules. The only solution is for judges to come up with a new ruling, and it can really only be one of three things:
1) Back the game up and make Cavern's controller specify which ability they're using.
2) Default to first ability.
3) Default to second ability.
Original ruling was (2), new ruling is (3), and I defy anyone to give a rational argument for why (3) is any more "idiotic" than (2) was. Certainly people can argue which is better, but "idiotic"? Come on. Either way, you're CREATING a new default out of whole cloth, because the card doesn't provide one.
Really, the cogent arguments for (2) come down to "Players should maintain a clear game state, so we should punish players who create ambiguity" and "Option 2 prevents any 'hide my cavern in a stack of lands' shenanigans."
The arguments for (3) are "The second ability is going to be player intent literally ~99.99% of the time, so if we're going to invent a 'default' ability it should be the actual default" and "Making players announce their caverns every time is tedious and wastes time."
Reasonable people can disagree on which is preferable, but equating either with "dumbing down the game" or "playing your cards for you" is silly. Defaulting to either ability is "playing your cards for you", because the card makes no provision for a player failing to announce their choice.
How does soulbound have anything to do with not being able to respond to comes-into-play abilities? You can respond to soulbound trigger when a creature comes into play.
This isn't about idiot-proofing anything, this is about doing what is intuitive. What happened is two players were playing, one used a cavern of souls to produce mana that could be coloured or colourless to pay for the spell, the opponent attempted to counter and a judge was called.
The original ruling was that if you could use the colourless option and didn't specify that you were using the coloured option then it was assumed that you were using the option for colourless mana. That ruling has been reversed. Now if you do not declare that you're not using the colourless ability it's assumed that you're using the coloured ability (unless of course you're playing an ability that you can't play for the coloured ability, then we assume you used the colourless ability).
This is not dumbing down. If a player doesn't specify, the judge has to say which. The judges are telling you right now that if the player did not specify we will be ruling that they used the coloured ability, which is most likely what they wanted to do anyways.
[[b]B]DCI Level 2 Judge[/B][/b]When a player neglects to use an ability, the default option, shouldn't be "that player used the ability, because it was obvious that he should have done so"
Sorry for wanting to punish players for not declaring abilities.
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.