Ugh, reading this thread gives me headaches. Do you think Wizards designs cards for the current metagame? Geez, it's only been like three weeks since U/w anything has been on top. The meta changes constantly, this card eventually can be good. Sorry it doesn't immediately suit your pet deck.
i think it's funny, but since I'm limited and EDH only, I love cards like these! Big french vanilla beaters i can wreck face in. Sorry, but I'm glad it's a mythic. True. It's not a titan. Sorry not every card is a mistake. I can't wait to pull one of these in draft. During new Phyrexia, I had a *curse* where i would crack a Chancellor of the Tangle EVERY first pic (5 weeks in a row), and I never had trouble getting it out, and was never sad to see it. So this guy will be the same way. Triple G? a problem, sure. But one reding-stripping-hood werewolf, and BAM. problem solved. Love innistrad limited.
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I fear I won't have much time to play Magic these days.
I get to watch worlds develop around me.
I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
Well now, I knew that WotC had habituatued me to powercreep over the last few years, but this is the first card to really make me realize it. A year and a half ago I would have been shocked at the powerlevel on this card, now it seems really meh.
The abilities feel like they just said: "Ok, we need a green fattie with three abilities, one of them being the new mechanic. How should we get the other two? I know, let's roll a die!" I wish it had been deathtouch instead of vigilance. Then there would at least be a little synergy with the two evergreen mechanics- unlike now.
Also, has anyone else noticed that they've tacked on tertiary green abilities to both the undying creatures in green? Haste for the geist and vigilance for this. Though vigilance almost feels quarternary for green rather than tertiary. I mean there's only 8 other green creatures that even have anything to do with vigilance.
Wow, at least when they have fancy abilities you can sometimes hide the power creep, but this is blatant. Triple green just makes it power creep for specific decks. Any person who says that it should have haste or be easier to cast does not know the bad stuff that garbage like that would lead to.
This is the kind of card that I fear during spoiler season. Every card like this brings Magic closer to its end, yet people like when this happens.
That said, even with all its power creep, it still may not see play because the Titans are even more power creeped and they still get value after O-Ring and Sever the Bloodline.
I really was confused by this card. Why is it a mythic in THIS set? It's not particularly horror related. Then I came back from a party last night to find three of my dogs on my futon barking at a centipede on the floor and realized how scary that would be as a twenty foot tall super bug.
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You've got a rat in your walls, and cheese won't solve anything.
Pod needs to be faster, not slower. This thing is going to have no impact whatsoever on Standard. Like Skaab, this is bulk material outside of casual. Triple green beaters in a UW-dominated Standard? Really?
Dude the difference is that when you pod skab he doesnt come back for free -_-
this guy is good you swing 5, pod into say frost titan, he comes back... you just put 12 power on the board in one pod activation. thats pretty saucy.
As far as him being a mythic get over it please. i dont want to run into this guy a lot in limited unless i draft him.
stop comparing him to vengevine. remember what block vengevine came in and the other mythics within it. A certain blue planeswalker to be exact. Obviously his power level would have to be high to be a mythic in that block.
plus i think this guy is pretty bonkers with pod and seance.
Don't get the 'this isn't mythic' argument. It's a mono G aggressively costed creature with a central set mechanic and a couple of evergreen abilities. That pretty much defines a mono G mythic creature a la Lotus Cobra, Thrun, The Last Troll, Rampaging Baloths, Avenger of Zendikar... the list goes on. This is decidedly less vanilla than Khalni Hydra for example.
The way 'vanilla' works is that its not a matter of how many abilities a card has, but how unique those abilities are. Khalni Hydra's first ability is mostly unique- its not the most original ability ever, being simply "Affinity for Green Creatures", but it had never actually been used before for a card in this way. So Khalni Hydra was not a vanilla or french vanilla- it had 1 unique ability and 1 keyword. Obsidian Fireheart for comparison had only 1 unique ability and 0 keywords; and it channeled the mythic feeling pretty well.
I'll not say Khalni Hydra was an original card, because it wasn't, but it wasn't totally bad design, it at least had its idea fleshed out. This, on the other hand, is 3 keywords and no unique ability at all- thats the definition of French Vanilla- or French French French vanilla, depending who you ask. For comparison, this creature is not any more complicated than vampire nighthawk; 3 keywords. Vampire has 3 evergreen keywords, this has 2 evergreen and 1 set-specific, but thats still not a legitimate excuse for it.
Fantastic, nothing really "wow" about it but this is a good card. The combination of vigilance and trample seems a little odd but very cool. I'd be happy pulling one of these.
And why is everyone talking about the pod deck, no body play Pod deck at this moment and if I wants a good eficient green 5 mana creature I would play Acidic Slime
No body played cawblade before batterskull either. Evaluating cards based on the current meta is bad. It would bean G/W tokens wouldn't be played, because no one was playing it before INN rotated in.
Pod was bad because of a lack of good 3/4 drops. That is slowly getting repaired.
Tap out turn 5 for him, next turn he swings, he either gets vapor snagged, gideon lawkeepered, doom bladed, dispatched, or decimated by a titan on turn 6 because he doesn't have haste.
The fact that he doesn't have haste makes him an average card. He can't do anything on his own except be a one time recurring pest. And either way if you can protect him he requires 4 turns to actually kill. He is at the same power level as bloodgift demon but even he doesn't see competitive play.
The point is that he is good but he doesn't warrant a spot in any competitive 60 card list.
Sorry, which of those cards are played in Wolf run?
How many are played in G/W tokens? Or in U/W humans, or Solar Flare, or RDW? Generally 3 (max, WRR has none, some G/W tokens builds have none, some SF builds only run counters, and RDW has none). That means that if it resolves, it stays if they have oringed a threat before.
Yet Another Mythic Trampled by Titans. No, really, look at him. He's borderline playable, like, for example, the phyrexian arena demon. He's even good. But then, you remember hat they've reprinted titans. And every single titan kills him - not only the first time, but even the second one.
When titans will rotate out of the format, maybe he will be the beater of choice for green decks. But right now, why should anyone play him over a titan?
You can play both. In pod, they work amazingly together, if you don;t ramp out perfectly, this is a turn 3 or 4 play, and titan the next turn, which is an enormous amount of pressure.
Why don't people play any of these:
Acidic Slime
Archon of Justice
Batterskull
Elspeth Tirel
Elesh norn
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Geist-Honored Monk
Gideon Jura
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Unburial Rites
Titans, right?
Titans outdo six drops, not 5 or 7 drops. (or 4 or 3 or 8 or 2 or 1 drops, although 8 drops are generally just bad)
Pod needs to be faster, not slower. This thing is going to have no impact whatsoever on Standard. Like Skaab, this is bulk material outside of casual. Triple green beaters in a UW-dominated Standard? Really?
I certainly wasn't, and unlike most people, I actually play (and win with :O) pod, and not bant either.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
I don't understand the insistence of people to have this card get haste.
So far only 11 green cards have a non-conditional haste ability out of the whole database - of which the majority had a drawback such as echo or end of turn death.
The latest addition was the undying spirit of DKA.
Suddenly, all green cards are entitled to haste?
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Decks:
Modern: (P/R)(P/G) Infect (P/G)(P/R) UWU Fish UWU WB Disruption BW
Standard: WBR Junk Aristocrats WBR WWW Humans WWW
Commander: BBB Marrowgnawer and Friends BBB GGG Thrun Tron GGG WBR Kaalia of the Vast RBW
Pod needs to be faster, not slower. This thing is going to have no impact whatsoever on Standard. Like Skaab, this is bulk material outside of casual. Triple green beaters in a UW-dominated Standard? Really?
Ruinator is still great for pod, it's a little hard to play a pod deck while Vapor Snag is seeing huge amounts of play. I dont understand how a 5/6 flier for 3 mana is "bulk" material
It was said when Ruinator was first spoiled that were probably going to need to wait until the block is released. still have 120 cards left, lets see what else comes out
Good god. Talk about pushing werewolves. Why don't they just give $50 to anyone who wants to run a werewolf deck? I mean, how many bells and whistles can they attach. It poops out tokens, it spot removes enemy creatures, it burns their dome, it gains you life, it tramples, its aggressively costed no matter *how* it gets played, it doesn't die to removal, it punches kittens and eats babies.
I don't understand the insistence of people to have this card get haste.
So far only 11 green cards have a non-conditional haste ability out of the whole database - of which the majority had a drawback such as echo or end of turn death.
The latest addition was the undying spirit of DKA.
True, but green also has haste-granting abilities, like on cards like thornling, and the r/g hybrid cards have haste, a lot.
Suddenly, all green cards are entitled to haste?
No, but people want haste on this more than vigilance.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
True, but green also has haste-granting abilities, like on cards like thornling, and the r/g hybrid cards have haste, a lot.
No, but people want haste on this more than vigilance.
I dismissed any card that had a conditional haste (e.g. Thornling) or multicolored cards - this card has neither so let's compare it to the rest of the database.
I personally wish it wouldn't have vigilance if I was playing against it. So many people underestimate vigilance; granted on a weak body it is not that great but on a beater like this, you cannot expect to take 5 and finish him off.
Why would this card even deserve haste? It has no conditional death effects, in fact it evades death and gets buffed WITH trample.
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Decks:
Modern: (P/R)(P/G) Infect (P/G)(P/R) UWU Fish UWU WB Disruption BW
Standard: WBR Junk Aristocrats WBR WWW Humans WWW
Commander: BBB Marrowgnawer and Friends BBB GGG Thrun Tron GGG WBR Kaalia of the Vast RBW
Haste would break this guy i'm pretty sure. A Vengevine you don't need to put any work into? Plus it'd be even less interesting than it is now, being a clone of a card that's already had it's time in standard.
Note that I don't disagree with you, haste makes this guy too good. Just putting out that people want haste.
I dismissed any card that had a conditional haste (e.g. Thornling) or multicolored cards - this card has neither so let's compare it to the rest of the database.
I'm not arguing whether or not he should have haste, but that haste in green, and further in g/r is quite common.
I personally wish it wouldn't have vigilance if I was playing against it. So many people underestimate vigilance; granted on a weak body it is not that great but on a beater like this, you cannot expect to take 5 and finish him off.
I love me some vigilance, especially on this guy.
Why would this card even deserve haste? It has no conditional death effects, in fact it evades death and gets buffed WITH trample.
Haste would make it another of the big green fatty with haste group of cards (vengevine, gaea's revenge, etc). Green mythics had haste, at least in zen
In scars they had hexproof.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
True, but green also has haste-granting abilities, like on cards like thornling, and the r/g hybrid cards have haste, a lot.
No, but people want haste on this more than vigilance.
i think in the long run ( once scars and vapor snag rotates) people will value vigilance more than haste on this card... the ability to attack and block and get value from block is > than being able to attack the turn you play him and leave an open but thats just my 2 cents. We'll know when we get there
Everything about this card screams "anti weenie/tokens" to me.
Hes in a color who can reliably get him out Turn 4.
He beats for 5, and with vigilance can easily block and take out most smaller creatures. If he does die, he comes back as a 6/5, and has trample.
So you can't chump him all day, you can't just wait for the attack and then swarm the opponent, and you cant just block him with a bunch of weenies and expect the threat to stop (because he comes back bigger).
Pod arguments aside (which I think are kind of moot at this point, but whatever), I think I'd rather have Batterskull on my side for the CMC.
I understand your point, but they really serve different purposes. With trample and coming back 1 time, Vorapede is much more aggressive than skull, which with 1 less power, no trample, lifelink, and being able to be returned to hand/equipped, is better in an attrition situation.
That being said, Ancient grudge makes me leary of running high cmc artifacts that can't replace themselves (wurmcoil).
I don't understand the insistence of people to have this card get haste.
So far only 11 green cards have a non-conditional haste ability out of the whole database - of which the majority had a drawback such as echo or end of turn death.
The latest addition was the undying spirit of DKA.
Suddenly, all green cards are entitled to haste?
And there are only 12 green cards (some not even fully green) that have or grant vigliance. That is not a valid point.
No, they are not all "entitled" to haste, but it's still a possibility. Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon can get haste, and he's black. Same with Bloodghast. Those don't really fit, either. The point is, it actually could get haste, they just didn't do it. Red cards aren't the only cards entitled to haste, nor are white cards vigilance, or black cards deathtouch. It more or less depends on the card itself and not the color. Some abilities just have a more dominate home in one color than in another.
I don't see why that's such a hard concept to grasp.
And there are only 12 green cards (some not even fully green) that have or grant vigliance. That is not a valid point.
No, they are not all "entitled" to haste, but it's still a possibility. Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon can get haste, and he's black. Same with Bloodghast. Those don't really fit, either. The point is, it actually could get haste, they just didn't do it.
I don't see why that's such a hard concept to grasp.
To me, its less about whether it makes sense in a color, to whether it makes sense on a card. If theres some kind of "lorewise" or "common sense" reason which a card should have an ability to do something, I think R&D can work it into whatever color makes sense.
More colour bleed to green... really I like a lot of things in this block but fillip and colour bleed just put me away.
What color bleed? Vigilance? That has been shifted to secondary status in green (less than white, more than other colors) since Lorwyn.
The card itself is great, an efficient and resilient beater that holds down some defense as well. A beefy creature that gets even beefier once it's died is plenty exciting for plenty of people, but not not everyone, in the same way that Cast Through Time is plenty exciting for plenty of people, but not everyone.
Oh wow, people make such a big deal about vigilance when we have seen common green creatures with it in ZEN block and a rare in NPH. Also i expect it to show more often, they should emphasize green being the color with the best ground creatures and vigilance it's a great mechanic for new players to learn.
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I get to watch great leaders, terrible oppressors, and trend setters rise and fall.
Limited, Standard, Modern, everything is a different playing field I feel I can observe, but will not actually touch.
I look forward to the stories I will hear.
And more so to the ones I will watch unfold first hand.
Isn't the unknown exciting?
The abilities feel like they just said: "Ok, we need a green fattie with three abilities, one of them being the new mechanic. How should we get the other two? I know, let's roll a die!" I wish it had been deathtouch instead of vigilance. Then there would at least be a little synergy with the two evergreen mechanics- unlike now.
Also, has anyone else noticed that they've tacked on tertiary green abilities to both the undying creatures in green? Haste for the geist and vigilance for this. Though vigilance almost feels quarternary for green rather than tertiary. I mean there's only 8 other green creatures that even have anything to do with vigilance.
This is the kind of card that I fear during spoiler season. Every card like this brings Magic closer to its end, yet people like when this happens.
That said, even with all its power creep, it still may not see play because the Titans are even more power creeped and they still get value after O-Ring and Sever the Bloodline.
Turn 2 Two Goblin Guide
Dude the difference is that when you pod skab he doesnt come back for free -_-
this guy is good you swing 5, pod into say frost titan, he comes back... you just put 12 power on the board in one pod activation. thats pretty saucy.
stop comparing him to vengevine. remember what block vengevine came in and the other mythics within it. A certain blue planeswalker to be exact. Obviously his power level would have to be high to be a mythic in that block.
plus i think this guy is pretty bonkers with pod and seance.
The way 'vanilla' works is that its not a matter of how many abilities a card has, but how unique those abilities are. Khalni Hydra's first ability is mostly unique- its not the most original ability ever, being simply "Affinity for Green Creatures", but it had never actually been used before for a card in this way. So Khalni Hydra was not a vanilla or french vanilla- it had 1 unique ability and 1 keyword. Obsidian Fireheart for comparison had only 1 unique ability and 0 keywords; and it channeled the mythic feeling pretty well.
I'll not say Khalni Hydra was an original card, because it wasn't, but it wasn't totally bad design, it at least had its idea fleshed out. This, on the other hand, is 3 keywords and no unique ability at all- thats the definition of French Vanilla- or French French French vanilla, depending who you ask. For comparison, this creature is not any more complicated than vampire nighthawk; 3 keywords. Vampire has 3 evergreen keywords, this has 2 evergreen and 1 set-specific, but thats still not a legitimate excuse for it.
I mean, imagine if it was:
Really no difference
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Pod and WR can easily pull triple green. Even 3 color pod.
No body played cawblade before batterskull either. Evaluating cards based on the current meta is bad. It would bean G/W tokens wouldn't be played, because no one was playing it before INN rotated in.
Pod was bad because of a lack of good 3/4 drops. That is slowly getting repaired.
Sorry, which of those cards are played in Wolf run?
How many are played in G/W tokens? Or in U/W humans, or Solar Flare, or RDW? Generally 3 (max, WRR has none, some G/W tokens builds have none, some SF builds only run counters, and RDW has none). That means that if it resolves, it stays if they have oringed a threat before.
You can play both. In pod, they work amazingly together, if you don;t ramp out perfectly, this is a turn 3 or 4 play, and titan the next turn, which is an enormous amount of pressure.
Why don't people play any of these:
Acidic Slime
Archon of Justice
Batterskull
Elspeth Tirel
Elesh norn
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Geist-Honored Monk
Gideon Jura
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Unburial Rites
Titans, right?
Titans outdo six drops, not 5 or 7 drops. (or 4 or 3 or 8 or 2 or 1 drops, although 8 drops are generally just bad)
But pod and wolf run, the two decks that really like him, can.
I certainly wasn't, and unlike most people, I actually play (and win with :O) pod, and not bant either.
So far only 11 green cards have a non-conditional haste ability out of the whole database - of which the majority had a drawback such as echo or end of turn death.
The latest addition was the undying spirit of DKA.
Suddenly, all green cards are entitled to haste?
(P/R)(P/G) Infect (P/G)(P/R)
UWU Fish UWU
WB Disruption BW
Standard:
WBR Junk Aristocrats WBR
WWW Humans WWW
Commander:
BBB Marrowgnawer and Friends BBB
GGG Thrun Tron GGG
WBR Kaalia of the Vast RBW
Why is desperate ravings a good card?
Ruinator is still great for pod, it's a little hard to play a pod deck while Vapor Snag is seeing huge amounts of play. I dont understand how a 5/6 flier for 3 mana is "bulk" material
It was said when Ruinator was first spoiled that were probably going to need to wait until the block is released. still have 120 cards left, lets see what else comes out
True, but green also has haste-granting abilities, like on cards like thornling, and the r/g hybrid cards have haste, a lot.
No, but people want haste on this more than vigilance.
I dismissed any card that had a conditional haste (e.g. Thornling) or multicolored cards - this card has neither so let's compare it to the rest of the database.
I personally wish it wouldn't have vigilance if I was playing against it. So many people underestimate vigilance; granted on a weak body it is not that great but on a beater like this, you cannot expect to take 5 and finish him off.
Why would this card even deserve haste? It has no conditional death effects, in fact it evades death and gets buffed WITH trample.
(P/R)(P/G) Infect (P/G)(P/R)
UWU Fish UWU
WB Disruption BW
Standard:
WBR Junk Aristocrats WBR
WWW Humans WWW
Commander:
BBB Marrowgnawer and Friends BBB
GGG Thrun Tron GGG
WBR Kaalia of the Vast RBW
Why is desperate ravings a good card?
Note that I don't disagree with you, haste makes this guy too good. Just putting out that people want haste.
I'm not arguing whether or not he should have haste, but that haste in green, and further in g/r is quite common.
I love me some vigilance, especially on this guy.
Haste would make it another of the big green fatty with haste group of cards (vengevine, gaea's revenge, etc). Green mythics had haste, at least in zen
In scars they had hexproof.
i think in the long run ( once scars and vapor snag rotates) people will value vigilance more than haste on this card... the ability to attack and block and get value from block is > than being able to attack the turn you play him and leave an open but thats just my 2 cents. We'll know when we get there
Hes in a color who can reliably get him out Turn 4.
He beats for 5, and with vigilance can easily block and take out most smaller creatures. If he does die, he comes back as a 6/5, and has trample.
So you can't chump him all day, you can't just wait for the attack and then swarm the opponent, and you cant just block him with a bunch of weenies and expect the threat to stop (because he comes back bigger).
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Decks:
EDH: Azusa, Gaddock Teeg, Sidisi, Keranos
I understand your point, but they really serve different purposes. With trample and coming back 1 time, Vorapede is much more aggressive than skull, which with 1 less power, no trample, lifelink, and being able to be returned to hand/equipped, is better in an attrition situation.
That being said, Ancient grudge makes me leary of running high cmc artifacts that can't replace themselves (wurmcoil).
And there are only 12 green cards (some not even fully green) that have or grant vigliance. That is not a valid point.
No, they are not all "entitled" to haste, but it's still a possibility. Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon can get haste, and he's black. Same with Bloodghast. Those don't really fit, either. The point is, it actually could get haste, they just didn't do it. Red cards aren't the only cards entitled to haste, nor are white cards vigilance, or black cards deathtouch. It more or less depends on the card itself and not the color. Some abilities just have a more dominate home in one color than in another.
I don't see why that's such a hard concept to grasp.
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To me, its less about whether it makes sense in a color, to whether it makes sense on a card. If theres some kind of "lorewise" or "common sense" reason which a card should have an ability to do something, I think R&D can work it into whatever color makes sense.
What color bleed? Vigilance? That has been shifted to secondary status in green (less than white, more than other colors) since Lorwyn.
The card itself is great, an efficient and resilient beater that holds down some defense as well. A beefy creature that gets even beefier once it's died is plenty exciting for plenty of people, but not not everyone, in the same way that Cast Through Time is plenty exciting for plenty of people, but not everyone.
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