Frogmaniac
When a card refers to a creature type such as goblin without the word card or spell immediately afterward it only refers to a creature of that type so you may not sacrifice your boggart shennanigens to goblin grenade
It only helps to chime in on a conversation if you know what your talking about.
Goblin Grenade only needs you to sac a 'goblin' to cast it.If it needed it to be a creature it would say 'goblin creature'.Since Boggart Shenanigans is a goblin due to tribal it is legal to sac it for goblin grenade.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOut of the ground,I rise to grace...W BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
Over and over on this thread, I keep seeing this word "clunky" being tossed around. ...could someone please explain what the Tartarus is so damn painful about one extra word in the typeline??? Seriously, how is tribal in any way clunky?? What, because there has to be an extra entry in the card type section of the Comprehensive Rules? In all the arguments against planeswalkers, I sure don't see that one being posted! Furthermore, there are a mere twelve, TWELVE cards that care about card type, specifically. How is tribal going to be making a splash here?
I...I just cannot grasp these complaints in the slightest. Even flavor concerns can be chalked up to incidental Gameplay and Story Segregation. By all means people, you think this type is worthless? You think it's "clunky" and makes no sense? Explain, then! EXPLAIN!
The death of tribal just means they have room to use another card type. Go go contraptions ;).
...Contraption is an artifact subtype. It has been since its conception. Removing tribal, should it happen, in no way will affect Contraptions being used.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
The fact that people don't understand what's wrong with universal subtypes is amazing to me.
If there were universal subtypes, Imagecrafter would be a mana accelerant and fixer. You could make your creature into a Forest and it would tap for green mana. All changelings would tap for mana. You could errata basic lands, duals, Ravnica duals, and the Leechridden Swamp cycle and remove the rules baggage attached to basic land types, but this causes a whole host of other problems with cards that change the types of lands. How would you ever print Convincing Mirage under these rules?
Okay, that's an actual issue, because land subtypes still have rules baggage. The solution is to get either get rid of that rules baggage or get rid of them as a subtype.
If you get rid of the rules baggage, as was done with Wall, then you now have "Plains" as the name of a card with type "Land" and rules text "Plains", which is an ability that lets you tap for white mana. Then you'd have phrasings like "search your library for a land with Plains", "target land gains Plains", and "target land loses all abilities and gains Plains".
Alternately, get rid of the subtypeness, as they did with Legend -> Legendary. Plains is now either a full-on Type or a Supertype, not a Subtype, though it is normally only printed on cards that also have the Land type. Then you'd have phrasings like "search your library for a Plains", "target land gains Plains in addition to its other types", and "target land becomes a Plains Land". This seems like the better alternative (with the trivial downside that Tarmogoyf just gained another +5/+5 to make up for the loss of Tribal, if it's a Type and not a Supertype).
Over and over on this thread, I keep seeing this word "clunky" being tossed around. ...could someone please explain what the Tartarus is so damn painful about one extra word in the typeline??? Seriously, how is tribal in any way clunky?? What, because there has to be an extra entry in the card type section of the Comprehensive Rules? In all the arguments against planeswalkers, I sure don't see that one being posted! Furthermore, there are a mere twelve, TWELVE cards that care about card type, specifically. How is tribal going to be making a splash here?
I...I just cannot grasp these complaints in the slightest. Even flavor concerns can be chalked up to incidental Gameplay and Story Segregation. By all means people, you think this type is worthless? You think it's "clunky" and makes no sense? Explain, then! EXPLAIN!
There are several discussions going around this topic.
I) I don't think it's gone forever (Although it will be rarely used)
II) I do think it's clunky (But I also do think it's grokkable)
III) I do think it's necessary to create the effect. (i.e. Cards can't simply be "Instant - Goblin")
And there are three reason that I can see why they're clunky.
1) First is a Melvin concern. "Tribal" is a card type, yet unlike any other card type, it cannot exist on it's own. It's sole purpose is to say "There is a creature type on this card, but ignore all rules that apply to creatures and instead apply the rules of the other card type on this card."
It's a card type, but it isn't really. All it is, is a loophole to put creature types on non-creature cards. It's purely there because of a rules issue and so it makes the card clunky.
2) Another Melvin concern. Like Matt Gottlieb said, all card subtypes are their types. A Goblin is a Creature. An Aura is an Enchantment. A Goblin is not a Tribal nor an Instant.
The reason that "Summon" and "Echant Creature" were removed from the game's terminology was to create a consistency within the type line. It's always "Noun - Noun". With Tribal we now have "Adjective Noun - Noun". The Goblin isn't a Tribal, instead the Instant is now something that Goblin uses... but also you the planeswalker and/or it just feels Gobliny.
Yes there's Legendary as another Adjective, but that's not a card type, it's a supertype, which only just adds to the list of inconsistencies and is why it's clunky.
3) Third is a design concern. Like many have stated already, where does the line get drawn? Should tribal be put on 50%+ non-creature cards now because it "makes sense" even though it doesn't add anything to the game? Taking up space in the type line while adding little to nothing to the game makes it clunky.
...Contraption is an artifact subtype. It has been since its conception. Removing tribal, should it happen, in no way will affect Contraptions being used.
What you're not thinking about is new players. Contraption absolutely sounds like it could be a creature.
If the rules just allow for anything after a dash to be a creature type, there is a lot of confusion among players who haven't learned what subtypes go where. Under the current system there is never any confusion. (This is related to issue #2 above.)
Tribal is necessary to get the desired effect. Removing it from the type line is absolutely a worse idea than putting it on there.
2) Another Melvin concern. Like Matt Gottlieb said, all card subtypes are their types. A Goblin is a Creature. An Aura is an Enchantment. A Goblin is not a Tribal nor an Instant.
The reason that "Summon" and "Echant Creature" were removed from the game's terminology was to create a consistency within the type line. It's always "Noun - Noun". With Tribal we now have "Adjective Noun - Noun". The Goblin isn't a Tribal, instead the Instant is now something that Goblin uses... but also you the planeswalker and/or it just feels Gobliny.
Yes there's Legendary as another Adjective, but that's not a card type, it's a supertype, which only just adds to the list of inconsistencies and is why it's clunky.
----------
What you're not thinking about is new players. Contraption absolutely sounds like it could be a creature.
Couple nit-picks, on just the stuff I left in your quote.
You have a Goblin Tribal spell. It may not be "a tribal" as you're correct, it's an adjective, but Goblin is a tribe. And "Tribe Instant - Goblin" doesn't flow as smoothly as "Tribal Instant - Goblin". Think of it more as "Goblin is a tribe" and less as "Goblin is a tribal".
Also, what you quoted was merely pointing out that Contraption isn't a type, so removing Tribal doesn't allow you to print Contraption Artifact, Contraption Creature and Contraption Enchantment. They weren't arguing anything about it sounding like a creature.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
I won't bemoan the death of Tribal as I never really liked what it represented flavor-wise. It was supposed to represent <insert creature-type> magic, but that is not mechanically how it turned out. Instead of Boggart Shenanigans being Goblin-magic, mechanically it was a Goblin that hung around but wasn't targetable by creature-specific magic.
I totally get what its use gained in terms of design space and synergy; I don't so much mind that. It just didn't seem like the flavor matched the mechanics at all here. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact you can pull out Bound in Silence with a Rebel, but if someone asked me to make a mechanic for tribal magic I don't think I would have chosen the Tribal type.
Most importantly is, how often does one need to consult that list?
The issue is that right now, the list is descriptive (that is, it's just culling all the printed creature types from existing cards' Oracle wordings) whereas your change would require it to become prescriptive (that is, there's just a list of creature types somewhere and cards can only use types that have been added to that list.)
That's the change (which would be a very bad change indeed) that R&D is avoiding by staying away from changes like the one you're suggesting.
(And regardless, even if they could just go to Instant -- Goblin... what does that accomplish? The problem with using the mechanic is the clunky-design issue about where you draw the line, not the extra word on the type line.)
It's always "Noun - Noun". With Tribal we now have "Adjective Noun - Noun".
This is a problem from shoehorning the mechanic into Future Sight rather than letting it develop fully in its natural environment, I think. Limited just to Lorwyn they could have come up with a better name (like "Totem", say) that expressed the flavor more directly and fit the type name scheme correctly, but because it was debuting in Future Sight they needed a completely self-explanatory name for the mechanic.
(And regardless, even if they could just go to Instant -- Goblin... what does that accomplish? The problem with using the mechanic is the clunky-design issue about where you draw the line, not the extra word on the type line.)
I think the extra word is a large part of the issue.
"Tribal" is unusual, so when you see it on a card you assume it is significant, and then are disappointed/confused to learn that it generally doesn't matter.
On the other hand, we're used to seeing creature types on all creatures, even when they're effectively just additional flavor text.
In short "Tribal Instant - Goblin" makes people thing that something's special about this spell. "Instant - Goblin" seems like the goblinness is something that's not too important.
On the other hand, we're used to seeing creature types on all creatures, even when they're effectively just additional flavor text.
The key difference here being that we wouldn't see creature types on every instant. Which makes it very special indeed when there's a type showing or not.
The key difference here being that we wouldn't see creature types on every instant. Which makes it very special indeed when there's a type showing or not.
Not really. We're just so used to ignoring what's after the hyphen unless there's some specific tribal mechanic we care about. That's the reason people often didn't even notice the Trap subtype during Zendikar block.
The only thing that bothers me is that they keep printing "Tribal" spells but they seem reluctant to add the Tribal type. Army of the Damned is the perfect example of this. They have nothing to lose by making it a Tribal spell; they would actually gain from it, because it would resonate more, and it might have some interesting interactions in a Zombie deck. They did it for some Eldrazi spells, and it didn't add anything mechanically, but it did nicely tie those spells to the Eldrazi.
Let me dispel something about Tribal really quick: it is never pointless otherwise it is never added... I.e. the Eldrazi Tribal spells you mention.
All the Eldrazi Tribal spells gain a lot from being Tribal [CARDTYPE] - Eldrazi because Eye of Ugin's cost reduction does not specify creatures and using Eldrazi Temple's tap for 2 that can only be used on colorless Eldrazi both apply to All is Dust. Because All is Dust is an Eldrazi Spell, a player can pay 5 for it if they control Eye of Ugin and tap as few as three lands to cast it if at least two Eldrazi Temples are in play as well.
The weird thing with Tribal is that it works in reverse to Legendary. Things are Legendary for two reasons are far as I can tell: 1. Flavor (there is only one Nicol Bolas) and 2. is balance (real life example from Commander: someone once had Mirror Gallery on the field, and then cast Rite of Replication kicked, choosing Iona, Shield of Emeria and called all five colors upon resolution). In order to add Tribal, there has to be a reason beyond balance and flavor to add that description. There also has to be support to make Tribal worth while, which is not what the cards in Innistrad were doing. It is reverse to legendary because rather than being independent from the cards around it, Tribal is central to the surrounding cards in order to work.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Okay, that's an actual issue, because land subtypes still have rules baggage. The solution is to get either get rid of that rules baggage or get rid of them as a subtype.
If you get rid of the rules baggage, as was done with Wall, then you now have "Plains" as the name of a card with type "Land" and rules text "Plains", which is an ability that lets you tap for white mana. Then you'd have phrasings like "search your library for a land with Plains", "target land gains Plains", and "target land loses all abilities and gains Plains".
Alternately, get rid of the subtypeness, as they did with Legend -> Legendary. Plains is now either a full-on Type or a Supertype, not a Subtype, though it is normally only printed on cards that also have the Land type. Then you'd have phrasings like "search your library for a Plains", "target land gains Plains in addition to its other types", and "target land becomes a Plains Land". This seems like the better alternative (with the trivial downside that Tarmogoyf just gained another +5/+5 to make up for the loss of Tribal, if it's a Type and not a Supertype).
And that is simpler than just using Tribal how?
They didn't set out to make Tribal a type. That's why it's an adjective and sounds like a supertype. They wanted it to be that way, but the rules could only work with it being a type.
I don't see how having "Instant - Goblin" has a benefit that outweighs getting "Creature - Aura" and "Artifact - Trap"
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll hold myself to this. I'll get fancy dishes and everything.
What you're not thinking about is new players. Contraption absolutely sounds like it could be a creature.
If the rules just allow for anything after a dash to be a creature type, there is a lot of confusion among players who haven't learned what subtypes go where. Under the current system there is never any confusion. (This is related to issue #2 above.)
Tribal is necessary to get the desired effect. Removing it from the type line is absolutely a worse idea than putting it on there.
Not going to argue about the "clunkiness" issue, as you and I clearly have very different opinions about what that means in this game. What I will point out is that you clearly haven't bothered checking for Contraptions. They are already in the rulebook as an artifact subtype. Yes, they could take it back, but right now, they're artifacts, which does make more sense and won't be a problem for new players to understand (can we all just calm down about making EVERYTHING something a newcomer will INSTANTLY understand???). Beyond that...I have no idea what point you were trying to make with Contraptions; it sounded like you were trying to argue a different point with someone else, but didn't distinguish it.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
Ugh, reading through this thread is really painful. More than half the posters don't understand why Tribal was necessary: Wizards couldn't just print Instant - Goblin and the rules change that would have allowed them to print Instant - Goblin was too unwieldy (or even straight impossible) to consider. So, in order to have noncreature cards with creature types, Tribal was essential.
Also, the loss of Tribal doesn't mean that the text on Tarmogoyf would need to change, let alone be errataed. Not even the slightest. Tribal is only mentioned in the reminder text. There are several cards that mention card types and it doesn't matter how many card types actually exist / are currently supported.
Arguments that ''the rules cannot be changed'' are mute
Is that like some sort of silent auction?
I was pleasantly surprised to see tribal in Eldrazi (and would like to see it when they return) and thought it worked there, as well as with cards like Bound in Silence and the harbingers.
The article said they "might pull it out of mothballs" in the future, so I don't think we've seen the last of it, we've pretty much just seen the full potential of the card type.
Not going to argue about the "clunkiness" issue, as you and I clearly have very different opinions about what that means in this game. What I will point out is that you clearly haven't bothered checking for Contraptions. They are already in the rulebook as an artifact subtype. Yes, they could take it back, but right now, they're artifacts, which does make more sense and won't be a problem for new players to understand (can we all just calm down about making EVERYTHING something a newcomer will INSTANTLY understand???). Beyond that...I have no idea what point you were trying to make with Contraptions; it sounded like you were trying to argue a different point with someone else, but didn't distinguish it.
Yeah, that was already pointed out, and my fault for not double checking. I never played with Contraption cards and should have looked it up. I suppose I can add an edit to the post pointing out the mistake. But still the general points are clear enough.
I am really sad to see this go, it really has such potential and seems simple enough to include with obvious choices. Especially old cards, I wish would be made tribal (see: Goblin War Strike).
They put a creature type on every creature, even when it's completely irrelevant, mechanically. And creature types aren't exactly rules-easy, either.
Tribal is lame because it isn't a way of letting Wizards put creature types on sorceries. It's a way of letting them maintain a divide between different permanent subtypes, and that is dumb. Seriously, what exactly is the design problem with letting people change a Goblin into a Locus, or Auras into Equipment? Sure, it prevents some cards that interact with subtypes from being printable, but it opens up vastly more design space than it closes.
Anyway, I don't care one way or the other. Tribal allowed them to print Nameless Inversion, which is super cool, but otherwise they never tried to do anything with it beyond just add flavor. And while I'm sorry I won't be able to to dig up Endless Ranks of the Dead with a Ghoulraiser, it just isn't a big deal.
Wit's End is the PERFECT answer to your opponent's Monomania however.
Just hold on to your Wit's End when they Monomania, so you can Wit's End them on your next turn!!!
I think this is fairly reminiscent of the "Jace Battles" we have seen in past standards.. My guess is we will soon witness the great Monomania-Wit's End battles.
The problem with turning a Goblin into a Locus or an Aura means you can turn it into a plains, and now it can tap for mana. And any way to fix this ends up being far more complicated and definitely not worth getting rid of Tribal.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll hold myself to this. I'll get fancy dishes and everything.
The problem with turning a Goblin into a Locus or an Aura means you can turn it into a plains, and now it can tap for mana. And any way to fix this ends up being far more complicated and definitely not worth getting rid of Tribal.
As I worked out above, I think changing the five basic land types into Supertypes avoids this issue, lets you get rid of any remaining rules baggage on subtypes*, lets you disassociate subtypes from types entirely, and lets you delete Tribal. I don't think it even requires changing the phrasing on any cards that care about basic land types. It's still "Search your library for a Forest", "Target land becomes a Swamp", and "Enchanted land becomes an Island in addition to its other types". Just rephrase 305.7 slightly to talk about changing supertypes instead of subtypes without any functional changes except in possibly the most extreme of corner cases.
*Equipment and Fortification are still left, but they're easily fixed by hinging the relevant rules bits of 301.5 and 301.6 on having an Equip or Fortify ability instead of having the right subtype.
As I worked out above, I think changing the five basic land types into Supertypes avoids this issue, lets you get rid of any remaining rules baggage on subtypes*, lets you disassociate subtypes from types entirely, and lets you delete Tribal. I don't think it even requires changing the phrasing on any cards that care about basic land types. It's still "Search your library for a Forest", "Target land becomes a Swamp", and "Enchanted land becomes an Island in addition to its other types". Just rephrase 305.7 slightly to talk about changing supertypes instead of subtypes without any functional changes except in possibly the most extreme of corner cases.
*Equipment and Fortification are still left, but they're easily fixed by hinging the relevant rules bits of 301.5 and 301.6 on having an Equip or Fortify ability instead of having the right subtype.
I'd need to go more in depth into the rules to really discuss this path, but I'll ask why? What will that do? It doesn't remove the design problem of where is the line drawn on what should be come Tribal or not. Should everything just be labeled with a creature type? Should we be getting Human Shock and Vampire Shock to go along side Tarfire? Should there be Wizard Jump and Vedalken Jump and Wizard Vedalken Jump?
Indulging this thread, what's the rationale for only being allowed to have one category of subtypes? Why can't there be basic land subtypes and then everything else subtypes?
I realize that, psychologically, the first place we're going to go is everything nesting quite nicely (super-, normal, sub-). And of course you'd want different words for them. But there's no reason the game couldn't support two separate lists.
Then again, my problem with tribal is more basic, and not related to the "Tribal" type at all. Why isn't Goblin Grenade a Goblin card? If they were operating under a paradigm that "all instants which should, thematically, get types will get types", it would have a type. If they were operating under a paradigm that "all instants which should, mechanically, get types will get types", it would have a type. But it doesn't.
Unless you're prepared to errata hundreds of cards - including some judgment calls where some cards have the type and others don't, and no way to know except gatherer - there's just no way to be consistent about this. Having it show up in a few splashy situations is the right call, I think.
EDIT: I would like to play that game. I would like lots of Wizard instants. I would like lots of Elf sorceries and enchantments. But that's not Magic, and this is one of those things that I think is too late to change. Even the Modern format would immediately feel like a whole different game, and that's called Modern.
Agreed that that world would feel different. From a wide view flavor standpoint (Which I know people are arguing the other way on a card by card basis), when you start labeling creature types onto all spells... why am I, a planeswalker, casting goblin magic and merfolk magic? How come I'm not casting my own spells? Or am I summoning a goblin to cast tarfire then sending him back in the aether after he's done rather than letting him stay on the battlefield? It's not really a game about planeswalkers anymore.
Edit: And then once you start creating all these alternate cards... you then break the 4 of rule. You can have a deck of 40 shocks and 20 mountains, or insert any other spell and land you want, and that's going to cause issues with non-rotating formats.
You could of course make the policy of no functional reprints, but then you might want your Goblin Bolt to show up and you find our your current plane has no Goblins.
Yeah, that was already pointed out, and my fault for not double checking. I never played with Contraption cards and should have looked it up. I suppose I can add an edit to the post pointing out the mistake. But still the general points are clear enough.
If you do ever play with Contraption cards, let me know! The only card referencing it is Steamflogger Boss and it also adds Assemble to our keyword actions with no definition.
That begs the question, with all subtypes in one list, one could assemble a creature, change it's type to contraption before that happens, and somehow get two of those creatures?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
She wants a ride on the pony, dude.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
It only helps to chime in on a conversation if you know what your talking about.
Goblin Grenade only needs you to sac a 'goblin' to cast it.If it needed it to be a creature it would say 'goblin creature'.Since Boggart Shenanigans is a goblin due to tribal it is legal to sac it for goblin grenade.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
I...I just cannot grasp these complaints in the slightest. Even flavor concerns can be chalked up to incidental Gameplay and Story Segregation. By all means people, you think this type is worthless? You think it's "clunky" and makes no sense? Explain, then! EXPLAIN!
...Contraption is an artifact subtype. It has been since its conception. Removing tribal, should it happen, in no way will affect Contraptions being used.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
Okay, that's an actual issue, because land subtypes still have rules baggage. The solution is to get either get rid of that rules baggage or get rid of them as a subtype.
If you get rid of the rules baggage, as was done with Wall, then you now have "Plains" as the name of a card with type "Land" and rules text "Plains", which is an ability that lets you tap for white mana. Then you'd have phrasings like "search your library for a land with Plains", "target land gains Plains", and "target land loses all abilities and gains Plains".
Alternately, get rid of the subtypeness, as they did with Legend -> Legendary. Plains is now either a full-on Type or a Supertype, not a Subtype, though it is normally only printed on cards that also have the Land type. Then you'd have phrasings like "search your library for a Plains", "target land gains Plains in addition to its other types", and "target land becomes a Plains Land". This seems like the better alternative (with the trivial downside that Tarmogoyf just gained another +5/+5 to make up for the loss of Tribal, if it's a Type and not a Supertype).
There are several discussions going around this topic.
I) I don't think it's gone forever (Although it will be rarely used)
II) I do think it's clunky (But I also do think it's grokkable)
III) I do think it's necessary to create the effect. (i.e. Cards can't simply be "Instant - Goblin")
And there are three reason that I can see why they're clunky.
1) First is a Melvin concern. "Tribal" is a card type, yet unlike any other card type, it cannot exist on it's own. It's sole purpose is to say "There is a creature type on this card, but ignore all rules that apply to creatures and instead apply the rules of the other card type on this card."
It's a card type, but it isn't really. All it is, is a loophole to put creature types on non-creature cards. It's purely there because of a rules issue and so it makes the card clunky.
2) Another Melvin concern. Like Matt Gottlieb said, all card subtypes are their types. A Goblin is a Creature. An Aura is an Enchantment. A Goblin is not a Tribal nor an Instant.
The reason that "Summon" and "Echant Creature" were removed from the game's terminology was to create a consistency within the type line. It's always "Noun - Noun". With Tribal we now have "Adjective Noun - Noun". The Goblin isn't a Tribal, instead the Instant is now something that Goblin uses... but also you the planeswalker and/or it just feels Gobliny.
Yes there's Legendary as another Adjective, but that's not a card type, it's a supertype, which only just adds to the list of inconsistencies and is why it's clunky.
3) Third is a design concern. Like many have stated already, where does the line get drawn? Should tribal be put on 50%+ non-creature cards now because it "makes sense" even though it doesn't add anything to the game? Taking up space in the type line while adding little to nothing to the game makes it clunky.
What you're not thinking about is new players. Contraption absolutely sounds like it could be a creature.
If the rules just allow for anything after a dash to be a creature type, there is a lot of confusion among players who haven't learned what subtypes go where. Under the current system there is never any confusion. (This is related to issue #2 above.)
Tribal is necessary to get the desired effect. Removing it from the type line is absolutely a worse idea than putting it on there.
Couple nit-picks, on just the stuff I left in your quote.
You have a Goblin Tribal spell. It may not be "a tribal" as you're correct, it's an adjective, but Goblin is a tribe. And "Tribe Instant - Goblin" doesn't flow as smoothly as "Tribal Instant - Goblin". Think of it more as "Goblin is a tribe" and less as "Goblin is a tribal".
Also, what you quoted was merely pointing out that Contraption isn't a type, so removing Tribal doesn't allow you to print Contraption Artifact, Contraption Creature and Contraption Enchantment. They weren't arguing anything about it sounding like a creature.
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!
I totally get what its use gained in terms of design space and synergy; I don't so much mind that. It just didn't seem like the flavor matched the mechanics at all here. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact you can pull out Bound in Silence with a Rebel, but if someone asked me to make a mechanic for tribal magic I don't think I would have chosen the Tribal type.
The issue is that right now, the list is descriptive (that is, it's just culling all the printed creature types from existing cards' Oracle wordings) whereas your change would require it to become prescriptive (that is, there's just a list of creature types somewhere and cards can only use types that have been added to that list.)
That's the change (which would be a very bad change indeed) that R&D is avoiding by staying away from changes like the one you're suggesting.
(And regardless, even if they could just go to Instant -- Goblin... what does that accomplish? The problem with using the mechanic is the clunky-design issue about where you draw the line, not the extra word on the type line.)
This is a problem from shoehorning the mechanic into Future Sight rather than letting it develop fully in its natural environment, I think. Limited just to Lorwyn they could have come up with a better name (like "Totem", say) that expressed the flavor more directly and fit the type name scheme correctly, but because it was debuting in Future Sight they needed a completely self-explanatory name for the mechanic.
I think the extra word is a large part of the issue.
"Tribal" is unusual, so when you see it on a card you assume it is significant, and then are disappointed/confused to learn that it generally doesn't matter.
On the other hand, we're used to seeing creature types on all creatures, even when they're effectively just additional flavor text.
In short "Tribal Instant - Goblin" makes people thing that something's special about this spell. "Instant - Goblin" seems like the goblinness is something that's not too important.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
The key difference here being that we wouldn't see creature types on every instant. Which makes it very special indeed when there's a type showing or not.
Not really. We're just so used to ignoring what's after the hyphen unless there's some specific tribal mechanic we care about. That's the reason people often didn't even notice the Trap subtype during Zendikar block.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Let me dispel something about Tribal really quick: it is never pointless otherwise it is never added... I.e. the Eldrazi Tribal spells you mention.
All the Eldrazi Tribal spells gain a lot from being Tribal [CARDTYPE] - Eldrazi because Eye of Ugin's cost reduction does not specify creatures and using Eldrazi Temple's tap for 2 that can only be used on colorless Eldrazi both apply to All is Dust. Because All is Dust is an Eldrazi Spell, a player can pay 5 for it if they control Eye of Ugin and tap as few as three lands to cast it if at least two Eldrazi Temples are in play as well.
The weird thing with Tribal is that it works in reverse to Legendary. Things are Legendary for two reasons are far as I can tell: 1. Flavor (there is only one Nicol Bolas) and 2. is balance (real life example from Commander: someone once had Mirror Gallery on the field, and then cast Rite of Replication kicked, choosing Iona, Shield of Emeria and called all five colors upon resolution). In order to add Tribal, there has to be a reason beyond balance and flavor to add that description. There also has to be support to make Tribal worth while, which is not what the cards in Innistrad were doing. It is reverse to legendary because rather than being independent from the cards around it, Tribal is central to the surrounding cards in order to work.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
And that is simpler than just using Tribal how?
They didn't set out to make Tribal a type. That's why it's an adjective and sounds like a supertype. They wanted it to be that way, but the rules could only work with it being a type.
I don't see how having "Instant - Goblin" has a benefit that outweighs getting "Creature - Aura" and "Artifact - Trap"
Not going to argue about the "clunkiness" issue, as you and I clearly have very different opinions about what that means in this game. What I will point out is that you clearly haven't bothered checking for Contraptions. They are already in the rulebook as an artifact subtype. Yes, they could take it back, but right now, they're artifacts, which does make more sense and won't be a problem for new players to understand (can we all just calm down about making EVERYTHING something a newcomer will INSTANTLY understand???). Beyond that...I have no idea what point you were trying to make with Contraptions; it sounded like you were trying to argue a different point with someone else, but didn't distinguish it.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
Also, the loss of Tribal doesn't mean that the text on Tarmogoyf would need to change, let alone be errataed. Not even the slightest. Tribal is only mentioned in the reminder text. There are several cards that mention card types and it doesn't matter how many card types actually exist / are currently supported.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Is that like some sort of silent auction?
I was pleasantly surprised to see tribal in Eldrazi (and would like to see it when they return) and thought it worked there, as well as with cards like Bound in Silence and the harbingers.
The article said they "might pull it out of mothballs" in the future, so I don't think we've seen the last of it, we've pretty much just seen the full potential of the card type.
Yeah, that was already pointed out, and my fault for not double checking. I never played with Contraption cards and should have looked it up. I suppose I can add an edit to the post pointing out the mistake. But still the general points are clear enough.
Tribal is lame because it isn't a way of letting Wizards put creature types on sorceries. It's a way of letting them maintain a divide between different permanent subtypes, and that is dumb. Seriously, what exactly is the design problem with letting people change a Goblin into a Locus, or Auras into Equipment? Sure, it prevents some cards that interact with subtypes from being printable, but it opens up vastly more design space than it closes.
Anyway, I don't care one way or the other. Tribal allowed them to print Nameless Inversion, which is super cool, but otherwise they never tried to do anything with it beyond just add flavor. And while I'm sorry I won't be able to to dig up Endless Ranks of the Dead with a Ghoulraiser, it just isn't a big deal.
Well, admittedly, Nameless Inversion is only cool because of Haakon, Stromgald Scourge, plus a few creature-type-specific tutors.
As I worked out above, I think changing the five basic land types into Supertypes avoids this issue, lets you get rid of any remaining rules baggage on subtypes*, lets you disassociate subtypes from types entirely, and lets you delete Tribal. I don't think it even requires changing the phrasing on any cards that care about basic land types. It's still "Search your library for a Forest", "Target land becomes a Swamp", and "Enchanted land becomes an Island in addition to its other types". Just rephrase 305.7 slightly to talk about changing supertypes instead of subtypes without any functional changes except in possibly the most extreme of corner cases.
*Equipment and Fortification are still left, but they're easily fixed by hinging the relevant rules bits of 301.5 and 301.6 on having an Equip or Fortify ability instead of having the right subtype.
I'd need to go more in depth into the rules to really discuss this path, but I'll ask why? What will that do? It doesn't remove the design problem of where is the line drawn on what should be come Tribal or not. Should everything just be labeled with a creature type? Should we be getting Human Shock and Vampire Shock to go along side Tarfire? Should there be Wizard Jump and Vedalken Jump and Wizard Vedalken Jump?
How about Elf Giant Growth, Werewolf Giant Growth, Druid Giant Growth, Warrior Human Giant Growth? Beast Giant Growth, Squirrel Giant Growth, Spider Giant Growth, Hydra Giant Growth, Wurm Giant Growth, Centaur Giant Growth, Cat Giant Growth, and Spirit Cat Warrior Giant Growth?
I suppose Wizards' would get the ability to print a lot more "new" cards each set. Is this something people want?
I realize that, psychologically, the first place we're going to go is everything nesting quite nicely (super-, normal, sub-). And of course you'd want different words for them. But there's no reason the game couldn't support two separate lists.
Then again, my problem with tribal is more basic, and not related to the "Tribal" type at all. Why isn't Goblin Grenade a Goblin card? If they were operating under a paradigm that "all instants which should, thematically, get types will get types", it would have a type. If they were operating under a paradigm that "all instants which should, mechanically, get types will get types", it would have a type. But it doesn't.
Unless you're prepared to errata hundreds of cards - including some judgment calls where some cards have the type and others don't, and no way to know except gatherer - there's just no way to be consistent about this. Having it show up in a few splashy situations is the right call, I think.
EDIT: I would like to play that game. I would like lots of Wizard instants. I would like lots of Elf sorceries and enchantments. But that's not Magic, and this is one of those things that I think is too late to change. Even the Modern format would immediately feel like a whole different game, and that's called Modern.
Edit: And then once you start creating all these alternate cards... you then break the 4 of rule. You can have a deck of 40 shocks and 20 mountains, or insert any other spell and land you want, and that's going to cause issues with non-rotating formats.
You could of course make the policy of no functional reprints, but then you might want your Goblin Bolt to show up and you find our your current plane has no Goblins.
If you do ever play with Contraption cards, let me know! The only card referencing it is Steamflogger Boss and it also adds Assemble to our keyword actions with no definition.
That begs the question, with all subtypes in one list, one could assemble a creature, change it's type to contraption before that happens, and somehow get two of those creatures?
Mafia Stats
Kill shot: BB
Issue with my shooting? Please visit my helpdesk and help me learn to aim!