Tarfire is a Tribal Instant - Goblin Shock. Was it really too difficult to just have it read Instant - Goblin?
Good riddance to Tribal, but removing creature types from noncreature spells is also a terrible idea. You mean, I can't search for Army of the Damned with Corpse Harvester? Really?
They could've just added the creature type and removed Tribal, but of course R&D never makes any sense. And yes, they could've changed the rules a bit to make this work. After all, they added a whole new section just for Mindslaver.
I'm really going to miss tribal... Lorwyn was one of my favorite sets/blocks because of all the tribal... not sure why they would just stop using tribal instead of leaving it open for later design use.
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Tarfire is a Tribal Instant - Goblin Shock. Was it really too difficult to just have it read Instant - Goblin?
Good riddance to Tribal, but removing creature types from noncreature spells is also a terrible idea. You mean, I can't search for Army of the Damned with Corpse Harvester? Really?
They could've just added the creature type and removed Tribal, but of course R&D never makes any sense. And yes, they could've changed the rules a bit to make this work. After all, they added a whole new section just for Mindslaver.
Yes, it was really that difficult. Instant - Goblin, means that Goblin is now a subtype of instants and sorceries, as well as creatures. But because if one subtype is shared between types, they all must be, you now could have a Creature - Trap. Or a Creature - Aura. Or a Creature - Contraption.
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I'll hold myself to this. I'll get fancy dishes and everything.
Yes, it was really that difficult. Instant - Goblin, means that Goblin is now a subtype of instants and sorceries, as well as creatures. But because if one subtype is shared between types, they all must be, you now could have a Creature - Trap. Or a Creature - Aura. Or a Creature - Contraption.
This is an easy solution: List creature types on noncreature spells in a different color (or italicize it), making sure you choose a shade so that color-blind people can differentiate. Then create a rule that states that subtypes in a different color (or italicized) aren't part of the supertype.
By the way, this reminds me of R&D's "substance" garbage errata they tried to feed us, only to have them realize that there was something much more elegant (beginning of the next cleanup step) a few years later.
Mark Rosewater says we might not see Tribal again but then he says: (I could imagine a specific use, like the Eldrazi spells in Rise, that might pull it out of mothballs.)
We will see Tribal again, but for now, design is saying it's got no practical applications for it in the near future.
Totally true. Tribal mechanic is already printed, rules are clear and easy (if someone can't say what is the difference between creature and non creature then he shouldn't play magic :/ ), and few tribal spells or reprints from time to time is a way to go.
Humans, zombies, dragons, wurms, beasts, vampires... They're a drop in a sea of needs.
This is how I feel.
I think this is a very bad decision b/c I liked the idea of certain spells/artifacts being closely associated with particular tribes. It's very flavorful, 100% logical, and it can really boost your tribal decks.
Blade of the Blood Chiefshould be tribal. Army of the Damnedshould be tribal. Even if it has no other synergy with cards in Limited, it has lots of interesting interactions with cards in other sets. Why not just throw it on there?
I just do not agree with this decision at all.
Moreover, they went through all this trouble, presumably with LOTS of internal debate/development notes to justify its creation, just to throw all that out the window a few years later.
If it was just a gimmick, then what other gimmicks will prove to be a complete waste of time. Maybe you should just avoid cluttering up the game with gimmicks in the first place, eh?
Normally I wouldn't even care but this was an ENTIRELY NEW CARD TYPE.
And, yes, Goyf probably should be errata'd.
Please get your **** together, R&D. This is just sloppy.
See this is bull**** to me, because they decided "we're only going to use tribal cards in 100% tribal sets."
What they should have done was make them "few and far" in various sets to make them come across as something more normal. In Alara? Crucible of Fire could have been a Dragon enchantment. Goblin Assualt could have been a Goblin Enchantment. They could have done "beast" tribal and applied it to all the "five or greater" cards that weren't creatures.
Zendikar could have used some minor ones for vampires, Kor, etc, etc.
And now this. This whole set looks like ti could use some Tribal cards to make it flow, even if it was only a minor theme.
it angers me that they introduced it for one set and then just sat and did nothing with it save for the Eldrazi.
Is a few cards per set really that damaging?
I agree. If a rule is added to Magic, I'd like to see it used when appropriate thereafter. Does it matter if the current set does anything with Snow permanents? No! If the card should be Snow/Tribal/whatever then make it that!
i knew it was bs when they made this and didn't errata some oldercards to have it. It makes no since. Too many cards fit the exact nature of what tribal is...and don't have it. So they had to fix it, or nix it.
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Arrest this man he talks in math
The Tea Party is the working class fighting against the man fighting for the working class.
It's called EDH kids, there is no such thing as commander.
It was pretty rubbish anyway. For convenience sake, I hope they errata it off all of the cards, and errata tarmogoyf to say;
Tarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and its toughness is equal to that number plus 1. (Artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and cards named Bitterblossom are card types.)
Since that's the only time it will ever be relevant anyway.
I think this means Tarmogoyf will never be reprinted in Standard.
I think this means Tarmogoyf will never be reprinted in Standard.
No the removal of Tribal for all practical purposes does not mean that Tarmogoyf will never be reprinted. If they completely drop Tribal to the point where they decide to errata Tribal out of Tarmagoyf, then that'd actually be a stronger reason to reprint him so that they can get the corrected text into circulation.
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On that note, tribal is stupid as; there'll never be a tribal-only card but it's a card type in and of itself (although what do I know or care of whether it could work otherwise?).
I thought they announced its death somewhere after Lorwyn block already as a mistake?
Nope, in fact they reused it in Rise of the Eldrazi.
As for putting Tribal on ice: I'm gonna channel Ren & Stimpy's Mr. Horse yet again and say, "No sir, I don't like it."
Yeah and I'm not Masked Legend. Thanks for falsely attributing the quoted text to me.
I (re-)read MaRo's article and it doesn't explicitly state or even suggest at the death, much less the permanent, death of tribal. In any case, whatever; what is is and what will be will be. It's not as though how I feel about tribal makes any difference to design now and later.
The main problems with tribal, in my opinion, are:
1. It has the potential to be completely broken as anything that gives tribal support other than creature buffs has the potential to affect everything you play (as stated, rooftop storm if every zombie-related card was a zombie).
2. It's too easy to go overboard. How do draw the line between tribal and non-tribal? How many creature types can a non-creature have? If token-making spells should have creature types, then would bestial menace be a Tribal Sorcery - Elephant Wolf Snake?
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Standard - RIP Cat
Modern - Death & Taxes
Commander - Mazirek, Trostani, Angry Omnath
The biggest reason I think tribal would be more useful is for things like "return two Zombie cards from your graveyard to your hand". So a spell that makes 13 2/2 zombies doesn't count for that? That's...odd.
The main problems with tribal, in my opinion, are:
1. It has the potential to be completely broken as anything that gives tribal support other than creature buffs has the potential to affect everything you play (as stated, rooftop storm if every zombie-related card was a zombie).
2. It's too easy to go overboard. How do draw the line between tribal and non-tribal? How many creature types can a non-creature have? If token-making spells should have creature types, then would bestial menace be a Tribal Sorcery - Elephant Wolf Snake?
1. Rooftop storm specifically says "Zombie creature spells". So no, it wouldn't affect other zombie related cards.
2. It's pretty easy to keep it balanced as well. For example, something as simple as saying "Zombie creature spells" rather than "Zombie spells". Also, something like Bestial Menace, if necessary to make it tribal, make it "Tribal Sorcery - Beast".
It was pretty rubbish anyway. For convenience sake, I hope they errata it off all of the cards, and errata tarmogoyf to say;
Tarmogoyf's power is equal to the number of card types among cards in all graveyards and its toughness is equal to that number plus 1. (Artifact, creature, enchantment, instant, land, planeswalker, sorcery, and cards named Bitterblossom are card types.)
Since that's the only time it will ever be relevant anyway.
The same BG deck that used Tarmogoyf when it was in standard also used Nameless Inversion, so cheatblossom wasn't the only tribal card that saw tournament play.
Tribal wasn't a supertype as many people also said in the topic, it was another card type, as Tarmogoyf pointed in its reminder text, it was created to avoid the wordiness and clunkyness of the Arcane and Spirit theme that went on Kamigawa cycle, because, in the very words of MaRo, it would have been much more cleaner to have each arcane to be just Tribal Instant - Spirit or Tribal Sorcery - Spirit, that to write in each card that cared "Whenever you cast a Spirit or Arcane spell...", dude, that "or Arcane" part looked awful in those cards.
The main problem with the Tribal type is that you have to use in in a set or an environment that has cards that actually care about having Tribals along the creatures in the deck, in the Lorwyn cycle they justified it by having things like Kinship, that cared if you had a card from the rithg creature type in the top of your library, the duals that asked you for a card of the type in your hand, or with cards that cared about what spells you played, like Door of Destinies.
In Rise of the Eldrazi, Tribal was used in a similar way, the cards that were Tribals mattered mostly when they weren't in the battlefield, like All is Dust, that could be played for cheaper if you had Eye of Ugin out, and, pretty much nothing else besides Eldrazi Conscription, that most decks that used it just retrieved it from their libraries anyway, and Not From This World could be cast for free so the cost reduction of Eye of Ugin didn't apply to it most of the time.
I understand the reason for not using Tribal in an environment that doesn't have cards that care about noncreature cards with creature types, like cards that reduce the cost of the spells of that type you cast, or cards that care about the type of the spells you cast, or cards that care about those in other zones that are not the battlefield such as libraries or graveyards.
Maybe Innistrad didn't use Tribals after all because they couldn't figure how to fit it in the set mechanics besides just punching more words in the card types and Rooftop Storm, that, and that some Innistrad themes like self milling want you to build a deck made mostly from creatures to get maximum profit from them, so tere wasn't much of a reason to add Tribals in the set.
Maybe they'll figure how to fit Tribals in a future set, but after what MaRo said, I'm afraid that Tribal is going to the same botomless pit where Banding, Shroud, Painlands and other mechanics fell to not be remembered again.
Good. I thought Tribal was beyond a dumb card type upon its conception. Just because you can simply tack something onto the start of an actual card type to identify it with a tribe is TERRIBLE reasoning to say that such a thing is as unique as any other card type. Tribal should have been a keyword that worked like Changeling, where the card would have "Tribal" followed by the name of the tribe, and acted as that card type in all zones.
I am glad for the death of this. Maybe Wizards will think harder next time before making such a poorly thought out decision that will only be revoked a few years later. Also, I thought Lorwyn's keyword abilities were garbage, so that helps fuel my dislike for the whole thing.
Tribal was a card type that wasn't. It couldn't exist on it's own, it had to be paired with other card types. It was really just a mechanical loop hole to try to get some tribal (theme) synergies. That really bugged the Melvin side of me.
As far as I'm concerned, this is just MaRo planting the seed for people to not cry when Tarmogoyf gets reprinted in one of the next 2 sets.
I mean, think about it. A graveyard based set is the perfect place for it. They want to support modern as being more accessible because anything can be reprinted. Now this, announcing that for the foreseeable future, one of the card types that goyf uses isn't going to be seeing print. If he gets reprinted now, he'll have a maximum of 1 less than full power in Standard, just like he was before Lorwyn saw print. You know, before he was broken. He's already full-powered in Legacy and Modern. Extended might as well be dead at this point anyway, so him seeing print again won't have too big an impact there.
So while I enjoy Tribal cards, I can understand why they cut them and I'm excited for the space this opens to reprint Tarmogoyf.
I'm of the opinion that tribal should have been a subtype in the first place. It made no sense to promote something that would have the same status as arcane, a block keyword, as a supertype that will be in every forthcoming set. They dropped the ball in Alara when there wasn't a single tribal card.
As far as I'm concerned, this is just MaRo planting the seed for people to not cry when Tarmogoyf gets reprinted in one of the next 2 sets.
I mean, think about it. A graveyard based set is the perfect place for it. They want to support modern as being more accessible because anything can be reprinted. Now this, announcing that for the foreseeable future, one of the card types that goyf uses isn't going to be seeing print. If he gets reprinted now, he'll have a maximum of 1 less than full power in Standard, just like he was before Lorwyn saw print. You know, before he was broken. He's already full-powered in Legacy and Modern. Extended might as well be dead at this point anyway, so him seeing print again won't have too big an impact there.
So while I enjoy Tribal cards, I can understand why they cut them and I'm excited for the space this opens to reprint Tarmogoyf.
as much as I really really want a goyf reprint I don't think wotc is into reprinting expensive cards. Ever.
When have the reprinted a $50 card, much less a $90-100 card. It just doesn't seem to be something they do.
Except that the first card could only return a few dozen instants and sorceries, while the second card could return hundreds of cards. Mostly creatures from all over the years, but also certain instants, sorceries, enchantments and maybe someday even artifacts.
Tribal opened lots of design space and interesting card interactions. I'm sad that they benched (not killed!) it.
Isn't that the joy of Magic: the interaction between cards? Where's the joy in trying to build a Trap deck, but knowing that there's such a small sample to choose from?
Since creature types no longer have inherent rules baggage, what does it break by putting them directly on other card types? That goes for "spell types" used for instants and sorceries as well. Would you confuse Instant - Goblin as a permanent? Would Enchantment - Arcane be broken and confusing? Would you try to deal damage to a Land - Merfolk?
The only reason to have separate lists of creature and spell (instant and sorcery) types is pedantry. In practice, no one would bat an eye if they saw a Creature - Trap or Sorcery - Dragon. The only thing that disallows that is the rules say these belong to different lists of subtypes. However, it's just having a list for the sake of having a list.
as much as I really really want a goyf reprint I don't think wotc is into reprinting expensive cards. Ever.
When have the reprinted a $50 card, much less a $90-100 card. It just doesn't seem to be something they do.
But my understanding was that the whole point of Modern was to make an accessible, non-rotating format. Legacy's price point is a huge deterrent for some people to get in and Modern was supposed to avoid that, which is why they made it a format where they could reprint any of its staples. Now seems like a perfect time for goyf.
Ok, for those of you who're saying goyf is shrinking, Tribal will still be around. Unless WotC is denser than I thought, previously Tribal cards will remain as Tribal cards, so 'Goyf is the same. MaRo just said they probably won't be printing any more Tribals.
However, the way he phrased that part about the Eldrazi made me pause... Possibly hinting at a return of our multi-dimensional behemoths?
Quote from "MaRo" »
I could imagine a specific use, like the Eldrazi spells in Rise, that might pull it out of mothballs.
First off, we all know how eager MaRo is to listen to himself think. He's boasted quite often how HE wanted a tribal-like set so HE pushed all the tribal-like cards and HE saved all the cards from the nasty design team etc. If MaRo says he imagines something, I wouldn't rule that something out, at least until we know he's out of the picture (like, a hundred feet behind the person taking the picture).
So that gets me to thinking - Either he imagines a return to the Eldrazi (on Zendikar or not) or he imagines a situation like the whole Eldrazi mess. Not much to go by, if it's anything at all, but hey, it's MaRo. Who says it needs to make sense?
Tarfire is a Tribal Instant - Goblin Shock. Was it really too difficult to just have it read Instant - Goblin?
Good riddance to Tribal, but removing creature types from noncreature spells is also a terrible idea. You mean, I can't search for Army of the Damned with Corpse Harvester? Really?
They could've just added the creature type and removed Tribal, but of course R&D never makes any sense. And yes, they could've changed the rules a bit to make this work. After all, they added a whole new section just for Mindslaver.
Yes, it was really that difficult. Instant - Goblin, means that Goblin is now a subtype of instants and sorceries, as well as creatures. But because if one subtype is shared between types, they all must be, you now could have a Creature - Trap. Or a Creature - Aura. Or a Creature - Contraption.
This is an easy solution: List creature types on noncreature spells in a different color (or italicize it), making sure you choose a shade so that color-blind people can differentiate. Then create a rule that states that subtypes in a different color (or italicized) aren't part of the supertype.
By the way, this reminds me of R&D's "substance" garbage errata they tried to feed us, only to have them realize that there was something much more elegant (beginning of the next cleanup step) a few years later.
We will see Tribal again, but for now, design is saying it's got no practical applications for it in the near future.
I'm OK with that.
This is how I feel.
I think this is a very bad decision b/c I liked the idea of certain spells/artifacts being closely associated with particular tribes. It's very flavorful, 100% logical, and it can really boost your tribal decks.
Blade of the Blood Chief should be tribal. Army of the Damned should be tribal. Even if it has no other synergy with cards in Limited, it has lots of interesting interactions with cards in other sets. Why not just throw it on there?
I just do not agree with this decision at all.
Moreover, they went through all this trouble, presumably with LOTS of internal debate/development notes to justify its creation, just to throw all that out the window a few years later.
If it was just a gimmick, then what other gimmicks will prove to be a complete waste of time. Maybe you should just avoid cluttering up the game with gimmicks in the first place, eh?
Normally I wouldn't even care but this was an ENTIRELY NEW CARD TYPE.
And, yes, Goyf probably should be errata'd.
Please get your **** together, R&D. This is just sloppy.
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I agree. If a rule is added to Magic, I'd like to see it used when appropriate thereafter. Does it matter if the current set does anything with Snow permanents? No! If the card should be Snow/Tribal/whatever then make it that!
I think this means Tarmogoyf will never be reprinted in Standard.
No the removal of Tribal for all practical purposes does not mean that Tarmogoyf will never be reprinted. If they completely drop Tribal to the point where they decide to errata Tribal out of Tarmagoyf, then that'd actually be a stronger reason to reprint him so that they can get the corrected text into circulation.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
On that note, tribal is stupid as; there'll never be a tribal-only card but it's a card type in and of itself (although what do I know or care of whether it could work otherwise?).
Yeah and I'm not Masked Legend. Thanks for falsely attributing the quoted text to me.
I (re-)read MaRo's article and it doesn't explicitly state or even suggest at the death, much less the permanent, death of tribal. In any case, whatever; what is is and what will be will be. It's not as though how I feel about tribal makes any difference to design now and later.
I doubt Tarmogoyf would be reprinted anyway.
1. It has the potential to be completely broken as anything that gives tribal support other than creature buffs has the potential to affect everything you play (as stated, rooftop storm if every zombie-related card was a zombie).
2. It's too easy to go overboard. How do draw the line between tribal and non-tribal? How many creature types can a non-creature have? If token-making spells should have creature types, then would bestial menace be a Tribal Sorcery - Elephant Wolf Snake?
Standard - RIP Cat
Modern - Death & Taxes
Commander - Mazirek, Trostani, Angry Omnath
1. Rooftop storm specifically says "Zombie creature spells". So no, it wouldn't affect other zombie related cards.
2. It's pretty easy to keep it balanced as well. For example, something as simple as saying "Zombie creature spells" rather than "Zombie spells". Also, something like Bestial Menace, if necessary to make it tribal, make it "Tribal Sorcery - Beast".
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The same BG deck that used Tarmogoyf when it was in standard also used Nameless Inversion, so cheatblossom wasn't the only tribal card that saw tournament play.
Tribal wasn't a supertype as many people also said in the topic, it was another card type, as Tarmogoyf pointed in its reminder text, it was created to avoid the wordiness and clunkyness of the Arcane and Spirit theme that went on Kamigawa cycle, because, in the very words of MaRo, it would have been much more cleaner to have each arcane to be just Tribal Instant - Spirit or Tribal Sorcery - Spirit, that to write in each card that cared "Whenever you cast a Spirit or Arcane spell...", dude, that "or Arcane" part looked awful in those cards.
The main problem with the Tribal type is that you have to use in in a set or an environment that has cards that actually care about having Tribals along the creatures in the deck, in the Lorwyn cycle they justified it by having things like Kinship, that cared if you had a card from the rithg creature type in the top of your library, the duals that asked you for a card of the type in your hand, or with cards that cared about what spells you played, like Door of Destinies.
In Rise of the Eldrazi, Tribal was used in a similar way, the cards that were Tribals mattered mostly when they weren't in the battlefield, like All is Dust, that could be played for cheaper if you had Eye of Ugin out, and, pretty much nothing else besides Eldrazi Conscription, that most decks that used it just retrieved it from their libraries anyway, and Not From This World could be cast for free so the cost reduction of Eye of Ugin didn't apply to it most of the time.
I understand the reason for not using Tribal in an environment that doesn't have cards that care about noncreature cards with creature types, like cards that reduce the cost of the spells of that type you cast, or cards that care about the type of the spells you cast, or cards that care about those in other zones that are not the battlefield such as libraries or graveyards.
Maybe Innistrad didn't use Tribals after all because they couldn't figure how to fit it in the set mechanics besides just punching more words in the card types and Rooftop Storm, that, and that some Innistrad themes like self milling want you to build a deck made mostly from creatures to get maximum profit from them, so tere wasn't much of a reason to add Tribals in the set.
Maybe they'll figure how to fit Tribals in a future set, but after what MaRo said, I'm afraid that Tribal is going to the same botomless pit where Banding, Shroud, Painlands and other mechanics fell to not be remembered again.
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I am glad for the death of this. Maybe Wizards will think harder next time before making such a poorly thought out decision that will only be revoked a few years later. Also, I thought Lorwyn's keyword abilities were garbage, so that helps fuel my dislike for the whole thing.
I mean, think about it. A graveyard based set is the perfect place for it. They want to support modern as being more accessible because anything can be reprinted. Now this, announcing that for the foreseeable future, one of the card types that goyf uses isn't going to be seeing print. If he gets reprinted now, he'll have a maximum of 1 less than full power in Standard, just like he was before Lorwyn saw print. You know, before he was broken. He's already full-powered in Legacy and Modern. Extended might as well be dead at this point anyway, so him seeing print again won't have too big an impact there.
So while I enjoy Tribal cards, I can understand why they cut them and I'm excited for the space this opens to reprint Tarmogoyf.
as much as I really really want a goyf reprint I don't think wotc is into reprinting expensive cards. Ever.
When have the reprinted a $50 card, much less a $90-100 card. It just doesn't seem to be something they do.
Isn't that the joy of Magic: the interaction between cards? Where's the joy in trying to build a Trap deck, but knowing that there's such a small sample to choose from?
Since creature types no longer have inherent rules baggage, what does it break by putting them directly on other card types? That goes for "spell types" used for instants and sorceries as well. Would you confuse Instant - Goblin as a permanent? Would Enchantment - Arcane be broken and confusing? Would you try to deal damage to a Land - Merfolk?
The only reason to have separate lists of creature and spell (instant and sorcery) types is pedantry. In practice, no one would bat an eye if they saw a Creature - Trap or Sorcery - Dragon. The only thing that disallows that is the rules say these belong to different lists of subtypes. However, it's just having a list for the sake of having a list.
........................
But my understanding was that the whole point of Modern was to make an accessible, non-rotating format. Legacy's price point is a huge deterrent for some people to get in and Modern was supposed to avoid that, which is why they made it a format where they could reprint any of its staples. Now seems like a perfect time for goyf.
However, the way he phrased that part about the Eldrazi made me pause... Possibly hinting at a return of our multi-dimensional behemoths?
First off, we all know how eager MaRo is to listen to himself think. He's boasted quite often how HE wanted a tribal-like set so HE pushed all the tribal-like cards and HE saved all the cards from the nasty design team etc. If MaRo says he imagines something, I wouldn't rule that something out, at least until we know he's out of the picture (like, a hundred feet behind the person taking the picture).
So that gets me to thinking - Either he imagines a return to the Eldrazi (on Zendikar or not) or he imagines a situation like the whole Eldrazi mess. Not much to go by, if it's anything at all, but hey, it's MaRo. Who says it needs to make sense?