I for one am happy with this. Tribal really is an all in or not design and really it overall doesn't add much depth to the game while forcing much complex rules that are confusing for new players and don't reward them.
I can see them doing something like what they did in RoE in some years away, but really the problems with cards like Moan of the Unhallowed could be solved with other methods if they are fundamental for a design. If zombies want a creature mechanic that involves returning cards from the graveyard they can have it, and being flashbackable is enough of a gimmick of it. Also if they really wanted a rare to count the sorcery in the graveyard as a zombie they could try a way around it. The complexity of it would be justifiable for a rare or mythic, not for the entire set unless it indeed is the set's focus, which i think is more or less MaRo's point. With the new approach for design that WOTC has taken, it probably isn't worth it as a subtheme.
@w190487: I am not someone with incredibly in-depth rules knowledge, but I believe your proposed "tribal rule" could work. I don't understand the point though, it would be functionally identical to the way tribal already works except that Tarmogoyf and any other cards that count card types wouldn't count them. They would play exactly the same though, it wouldn't make the game any less complicated. At all.
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
I for one am happy with this. Tribal really is an all in or not design and really it overall doesn't add much depth to the game while forcing much complex rules that are confusing for new players and don't reward them.
What the Hel is confusing to ANYBODY??? How. the. offensive term for doing it. is tribal confusing. Seriously. How. the. OFFENSIVE TERM FOR DOING IT.
You add a creature type to a noncreature card. Tribal is an auxiliary card type. It's a card ensconced in the lore, culture and magic of a particular brand of creature, to the point that it isn't flavored to something else. THAT IS ALL THERE IS TO TRIBAL, AND THERE IS NOTHING TO NOT UNDERSTAND.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
What the Hel is confusing to ANYBODY??? How. the. offensive term for doing it. is tribal confusing. Seriously. How. the. OFFENSIVE TERM FOR DOING IT.
You add a creature type to a noncreature card. Tribal is an auxiliary card type. It's a card ensconced in the lore, culture and magic of a particular brand of creature, to the point that it isn't flavored to something else. THAT IS ALL THERE IS TO TRIBAL, AND THERE IS NOTHING TO NOT UNDERSTAND.
What for? More rules to an already complicated game that don't add anything to the gameplay? It was fine when it was introduced, but it wouldn't have made sense to shoehorn it in anywhere. Uses like RoE are completely fine and until we get a new tribal block which i doubt we'll see anytime in MaRo's planned upcoming blocks i think it won't be used for stuff like the one described in the article and i am glad for it. We don't need to make things more awkward just for flavor when it has little mechanical implication for all the rules baggage.
What the Hel is confusing to ANYBODY??? How. the. offensive term for doing it. is tribal confusing. Seriously. How. the. OFFENSIVE TERM FOR DOING IT.
You add a creature type to a noncreature card. Tribal is an auxiliary card type. It's a card ensconced in the lore, culture and magic of a particular brand of creature, to the point that it isn't flavored to something else. THAT IS ALL THERE IS TO TRIBAL, AND THERE IS NOTHING TO NOT UNDERSTAND.
It isn't confusing to anybody, except maybe some players who are just starting out and think they get to deal their opponent 3 damage by casting Tarfire at them while Boggart Shenanigans is in play.
The issue is not one of understanding, the issue is that Tribal, just like any other card type, keyword, ability word, or mechanic of any kind, adds to the overall complexity of the game. Even if the thing itself is easy to understand, its one more thing that has to be understood to play magic without having to stop and say "Wait, what does that do?."
More importantly though, it puts designers in an awkward spot where any non-creature card that cares about creature types, or is even just connected flavorfully to a creature type must be considered if it should be a Tribal or not. Most of the time it isn't even going to matter if the card is a Tribal, so why even bother putting on the extra word on the type line? Because players will get annoyed if they don't. So now they're basically forced to either make any card with any kind of connection whatsoever to a specific creature type Tribal, or risk disappointing someone. They decided to add a new option: tell everyone there won't be any more Tribals, so they can't be disappointed. Hardly takes anything away from the game, but it makes it slightly less complex overall, saves space on the type lines, and keeps people from throwing a fit because they can't Ghoulcaller's Chant two Moan of the Unhallowed back to their hands.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
I thought about it and looked it up. I'm not sure why we can't just have a rule that says that creature subtypes can be added to any other card type. (or simply add them to every other type-subtype list) Sure, it's weird, but creature types don't do anything by themselves, anymore, so it doesn't really cause any problems. I don't think there's any way for a noncreature card to gain a creature type without becoming a creature, so I don't think it's risky, either.
I thought about it and looked it up. I'm not sure why we can't just have a rule that says that creature subtypes can be added to any other card type. (or simply add them to every other type-subtype list) Sure, it's weird, but creature types don't do anything by themselves, anymore, so it doesn't really cause any problems. I don't think there's any way for a noncreature card to gain a creature type without becoming a creature, so I don't think it's risky, either.
That's cool, but it doesn't do anything to change the actual reason they're (mostly) doing away with Tribals.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
— Szadek
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I can see them doing something like what they did in RoE in some years away, but really the problems with cards like Moan of the Unhallowed could be solved with other methods if they are fundamental for a design. If zombies want a creature mechanic that involves returning cards from the graveyard they can have it, and being flashbackable is enough of a gimmick of it. Also if they really wanted a rare to count the sorcery in the graveyard as a zombie they could try a way around it. The complexity of it would be justifiable for a rare or mythic, not for the entire set unless it indeed is the set's focus, which i think is more or less MaRo's point. With the new approach for design that WOTC has taken, it probably isn't worth it as a subtheme.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
What the Hel is confusing to ANYBODY??? How. the. offensive term for doing it. is tribal confusing. Seriously. How. the. OFFENSIVE TERM FOR DOING IT.
You add a creature type to a noncreature card. Tribal is an auxiliary card type. It's a card ensconced in the lore, culture and magic of a particular brand of creature, to the point that it isn't flavored to something else. THAT IS ALL THERE IS TO TRIBAL, AND THERE IS NOTHING TO NOT UNDERSTAND.
About any "subpar" mechanics or cards: Context is king.
If I make a templating or grammar error, let me know.
The franchise MtG most resembles is Battlestar Galactica. Why? Its players exist in, at most, a dozen different models at any given point in time, with perhaps up to 3% variation, 5% if you're lucky.
What for? More rules to an already complicated game that don't add anything to the gameplay? It was fine when it was introduced, but it wouldn't have made sense to shoehorn it in anywhere. Uses like RoE are completely fine and until we get a new tribal block which i doubt we'll see anytime in MaRo's planned upcoming blocks i think it won't be used for stuff like the one described in the article and i am glad for it. We don't need to make things more awkward just for flavor when it has little mechanical implication for all the rules baggage.
It isn't confusing to anybody, except maybe some players who are just starting out and think they get to deal their opponent 3 damage by casting Tarfire at them while Boggart Shenanigans is in play.
The issue is not one of understanding, the issue is that Tribal, just like any other card type, keyword, ability word, or mechanic of any kind, adds to the overall complexity of the game. Even if the thing itself is easy to understand, its one more thing that has to be understood to play magic without having to stop and say "Wait, what does that do?."
More importantly though, it puts designers in an awkward spot where any non-creature card that cares about creature types, or is even just connected flavorfully to a creature type must be considered if it should be a Tribal or not. Most of the time it isn't even going to matter if the card is a Tribal, so why even bother putting on the extra word on the type line? Because players will get annoyed if they don't. So now they're basically forced to either make any card with any kind of connection whatsoever to a specific creature type Tribal, or risk disappointing someone. They decided to add a new option: tell everyone there won't be any more Tribals, so they can't be disappointed. Hardly takes anything away from the game, but it makes it slightly less complex overall, saves space on the type lines, and keeps people from throwing a fit because they can't Ghoulcaller's Chant two Moan of the Unhallowed back to their hands.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
That's cool, but it doesn't do anything to change the actual reason they're (mostly) doing away with Tribals.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."