Is anyone really going to miss the PTOs? Really? Are the ones in the rest of the country really good or something? Because where I live (midwest), they're all greedy and relatively incompetent.
I mean, when you have around 100 people I understand limiting the prizes booster boxes for top 8... but when you have 250 people, and the only increase in prizes is a few extra boxes given out to 16-32? That's just ridiculous.
And finally, there ARE stores that can hold 200+ people. And I'd imagine if you give store owners the kinds of events that can attract 200+ people, more of them will invest in such locations, which is good for everybody.
Your geographic location is blinding you to the problems that major metropolitan areas like DC, NY and London have. In these areas, it's nearly impossible for large gaming stores to survive because the property values are pretty insane. The ones that do exist usually seat around 40 people at most, leading to problems like we saw at the Innistrad prerelease with people being turned away.
This is why people have been very vocal and very upset about many of the store-level changes in these areas. These cities have a massive player base, but that player base lacks venues to play because of the economic forces at work.
The problem with this plan is that PTQs can get 200+ people attending, which is more than most stores can handle. There are ways to deal with this, of course. How they choose to do so is what interests me here.
Right now? 75 people. When we move to our new location in 5 or 6 weeks, around 200 comfortably, and more if we squeeze. Granted, average PTQ attendance in this area is around 350, depending on the format, but I think we're much better equipped for the change than most stores. I kind of assumed only the northeast was really getting screwed by the change. Are PTQs around the rest of the country and world as big as they are here?
Your geographic location is blinding you to the problems that major metropolitan areas like DC, NY and London have. In these areas, it's nearly impossible for large gaming stores to survive because the property values are pretty insane. The ones that do exist usually seat around 40 people at most, leading to problems like we saw at the Innistrad prerelease with people being turned away.
This is why people have been very vocal and very upset about many of the store-level changes in these areas. These cities have a massive player base, but that player base lacks venues to play because of the economic forces at work.
I've been to stores in Chicago and Los Angeles that can hold 200 people. They're the #2 and #3 largest metropolitan areas in the US, so if they don't have this issue, it seems like it's less a "metropolitan" issue, and more a Northeast issue.
Also, there is no requirement that the hosting store actually host IN the store. If it isn't feasible to have a large enough physical store to host in-store, store owners are just as capable of renting a larger venue as a PTO is.
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Lately, I have been very unimpressed with these changes that WotC has been making. Forget taking away the dinky little Top-8 pins, how are local stores going to handle PTQs? The stores I go to can house a little more than 40 people, let alone seat.
My biggest question is, if its true that prizes are going to change, how are these stores going to afford them? They said they want to better profit the store by doing this, but who pays for the prizes for PTQs, really?
Lately, I have been very unimpressed with these changes that WotC has been making. Forget taking away the dinky little Top-8 pins, how are local stores going to handle PTQs? The stores I go to can house a little more than 40 people, let alone seat.
My biggest question is, if its true that prizes are going to change, how are these stores going to afford them? They said they want to better profit the store by doing this, but who pays for the prizes for PTQs, really?
We can fit up to 80-90 and are located right next to a convention center. We could rent out space if numbers are expected to be bigger than that.
The point is that most stores would not be capable to run them but PTQ's aren't for most stores. They take precaution in making sure the stores that are running tournaments like PTQ's are capable of hosting them.
The problem is that most stores arent big enough to hold PTQ events. I was at a PTQ in Chicago last weekend that had 226 players. I dont think any of the LGS in my area would ever be able to support such a turnout.
It's not a shift in the location of PTQ's. It's a shift in the organizer of the PTQs. It's essentially WotC trying (we'll see if it succeeds or not) to cut out the "professional event organizers" and let stores run this.
We've seen it before with Pre-releases, and it was fairly successful there. we'll see how they manage to do this time around.
The problem is that most stores arent big enough to hold PTQ events. I was at a PTQ in Chicago last weekend that had 226 players. I dont think any of the LGS in my area would ever be able to support such a turnout.
I can't even go to Prereleases at the store level anymore. I hate being jammed into crappy gaming stores just to play games. I hate knocking over merchandise just to get outside. I hate the lack of options.
I wish Wizards would just pay PTO to organize all the big events. PTQs, Prereleases, Grand Prix, Pro Tours. have them in the biggest Metro area in the region and be done with it.
I don't hate LGS, but most places don't have "really good ones".
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
Doesn't make too much of a difference here in Michigan. The local PTO usually runs events in a store just outside of Detroit that can fit 200+ people anyways.
Doesn't make too much of a difference here in Michigan. The local PTO usually runs events in a store just outside of Detroit that can fit 200+ people anyways.
yeah i was going to mention that too ive been to ptqs there, i just hope that this means that cleveland will have some ptqs so i dont have to drive 2+ hours to go to one
Doesn't make too much of a difference here in Michigan. The local PTO usually runs events in a store just outside of Detroit that can fit 200+ people anyways.
Check Again -- the next round of PTQ's in Michigan (innistratd sealed, whatever PT thats for) is being held in a hotel in Livonia. Which is great for me, since its less than 5 miles from my house.
It's not a shift in the location of PTQ's. It's a shift in the organizer of the PTQs. It's essentially WotC trying (we'll see if it succeeds or not) to cut out the "professional event organizers" and let stores run this.
We've seen it before with Pre-releases, and it was fairly successful there. we'll see how they manage to do this time around.
How would that work? In a given area there are 1-2 PTQs per season but many stores. Do they choose randomly which store gets to organize it? Or are the stores supposed to organize it together? Or are they going to have a store equivalent of Planeswalker Points to determine which store is the most worthy?
There's nothing stopping stores from asking Wizards for a PTQ now. What's happening is that Wizards is trying to force TOs to partner with a store so that more profits go to the store. However, as with prereleases, many TOs will simply drop out, either because the profit becomes too low for the amount of work involved, or they cannot find a store willing to partner with them. As a general principle, with less competition, prices rise and/or quality falls.
So the question is not whether this is good or bad for PTQs (it should be the same or worse), but whether the sacrifice is worth it. Whether this step will have a significant effect on keeping and increasing stores and thereby increasing sales for Wizards. It has to increase it more than the lost sales from people who stop attending PTQs because of the change.
How did the big prerelease killing work out for them? I stopped attending prereleases after that, but I think it must have gone well for them to try this. I don't like it, but it's up to the vote by wallet.
So what is the hate on PTOs for? I'm neutral on the matter, but I sure am curious as to why Wizards has been essentially pushing the PTOs out of business.
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"I don't know why people say a double-edged sword is bad. It's a sword. With two edges." - Kamahl, Pit Fighter
I have to say I'm really concerned about this change. Combined with the lack of PT invites on GP's and Planeswalker Points I'm legitimately scared about the direction Tournament Magic is going in. And I played in a PTQ at my LGS last weekend. We had a 120 person turnout with seating available for 200.
Where do I even start. How prepared are store staff to judge a PTQ? How many "judges" are going to be created just to make this model work. In my experience the average game store owner is far more nefarious than Professional Tournament Organizers. What happens when your local game store pulls some fast ones with prizes and is DQed from events? no more PTQ's?
What about store regulars and owners friends. The point of a PTO is to be a neutral party.
So what is the hate on PTOs for? I'm neutral on the matter, but I sure am curious as to why Wizards has been essentially pushing the PTOs out of business.
Stores, at least the ones that will be getting this sort of event, actively promote the full line of WotC products, not just Magic. They provide a place for people to play and utilize WotC's products outside of tournaments, and they run several smaller tournaments a week for Magic.
The idea is to reward stores that are actively marketing for and promoting WotC's brands, as well as stores facilitating playing magic.
The big PTO's don't do any of that.
This just even MORE push towards local level magic playing and promoting. Wizrds knows where the money is. And its not in mega event organizers.
In my experience the average game store owner is far more nefarious than Professional Tournament Organizers.
Which is why the average store owner won't be getting PTQ's. There are many, many store owners that aren't nefarious, and have run big tournaments before. These are the sorts that will be getting PTQ's.
Where you going to get a store large enough to house 80 + magic players. We have barely enough place at my lgs for a draft nevermind a big tourney like a ptq
Where you going to get a store large enough to house 80 + magic players. We have barely enough place at my lgs for a draft nevermind a big tourney like a ptq
There is absolutely nothing prohibiting a store from renting out a hall just like the old PTO did...
The restriction here is not on where the PTQ is held, but on who is organizing it.
Our store will be running PTQ's oddly enough. Luckily, it's actually big enough to have 80+ person tournaments. Funny thing is there actually used to be two large enough to do that. One lately just moved a little further south, but it's big enough to pull it off. It's just odd since we're way up in northern Michigan.
This really depends on the store. If a store can hold the tournament without turning people away or having to play on the floor then I'm all for it. Just would hate to drive up and be turned away or play shoulder to shoulder for 8 hours.
Where you going to get a store large enough to house 80 + magic players. We have barely enough place at my lgs for a draft nevermind a big tourney like a ptq
It's not that bad of a problem. In Albuquerque, New Mexico, an LGS already handles all the PTO work. (Activimaginaton, for reference). Maybe it's just cheaper to rent out a large space in ABQ than elsewhere, but renting a Convention Center for two days is, generally speaking, fairly cheap (when compared to the potential revenue).
My only worry is that Plane Tickets will be removed from the prizes if this happens. If they are, then about 90% of semi-pros are ****ed.
Your geographic location is blinding you to the problems that major metropolitan areas like DC, NY and London have. In these areas, it's nearly impossible for large gaming stores to survive because the property values are pretty insane. The ones that do exist usually seat around 40 people at most, leading to problems like we saw at the Innistrad prerelease with people being turned away.
This is why people have been very vocal and very upset about many of the store-level changes in these areas. These cities have a massive player base, but that player base lacks venues to play because of the economic forces at work.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Right now? 75 people. When we move to our new location in 5 or 6 weeks, around 200 comfortably, and more if we squeeze. Granted, average PTQ attendance in this area is around 350, depending on the format, but I think we're much better equipped for the change than most stores. I kind of assumed only the northeast was really getting screwed by the change. Are PTQs around the rest of the country and world as big as they are here?
Our apologies to the country of Hawaii. /wizards
I've been to stores in Chicago and Los Angeles that can hold 200 people. They're the #2 and #3 largest metropolitan areas in the US, so if they don't have this issue, it seems like it's less a "metropolitan" issue, and more a Northeast issue.
Also, there is no requirement that the hosting store actually host IN the store. If it isn't feasible to have a large enough physical store to host in-store, store owners are just as capable of renting a larger venue as a PTO is.
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My biggest question is, if its true that prizes are going to change, how are these stores going to afford them? They said they want to better profit the store by doing this, but who pays for the prizes for PTQs, really?
We can fit up to 80-90 and are located right next to a convention center. We could rent out space if numbers are expected to be bigger than that.
The point is that most stores would not be capable to run them but PTQ's aren't for most stores. They take precaution in making sure the stores that are running tournaments like PTQ's are capable of hosting them.
Honolulu isn't a country. It's a county of Hawaii, which is a US state.
He means for the Pro Tour in Honolulu...he's from New Zealand.
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It's not a shift in the location of PTQ's. It's a shift in the organizer of the PTQs. It's essentially WotC trying (we'll see if it succeeds or not) to cut out the "professional event organizers" and let stores run this.
We've seen it before with Pre-releases, and it was fairly successful there. we'll see how they manage to do this time around.
I can't even go to Prereleases at the store level anymore. I hate being jammed into crappy gaming stores just to play games. I hate knocking over merchandise just to get outside. I hate the lack of options.
I wish Wizards would just pay PTO to organize all the big events. PTQs, Prereleases, Grand Prix, Pro Tours. have them in the biggest Metro area in the region and be done with it.
I don't hate LGS, but most places don't have "really good ones".
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yeah i was going to mention that too ive been to ptqs there, i just hope that this means that cleveland will have some ptqs so i dont have to drive 2+ hours to go to one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpgjnU7C3Aw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe7kkZixasc
Check Again -- the next round of PTQ's in Michigan (innistratd sealed, whatever PT thats for) is being held in a hotel in Livonia. Which is great for me, since its less than 5 miles from my house.
How would that work? In a given area there are 1-2 PTQs per season but many stores. Do they choose randomly which store gets to organize it? Or are the stores supposed to organize it together? Or are they going to have a store equivalent of Planeswalker Points to determine which store is the most worthy?
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I'm sure anyone else can do the same thing.
So the question is not whether this is good or bad for PTQs (it should be the same or worse), but whether the sacrifice is worth it. Whether this step will have a significant effect on keeping and increasing stores and thereby increasing sales for Wizards. It has to increase it more than the lost sales from people who stop attending PTQs because of the change.
How did the big prerelease killing work out for them? I stopped attending prereleases after that, but I think it must have gone well for them to try this. I don't like it, but it's up to the vote by wallet.
Where do I even start. How prepared are store staff to judge a PTQ? How many "judges" are going to be created just to make this model work. In my experience the average game store owner is far more nefarious than Professional Tournament Organizers. What happens when your local game store pulls some fast ones with prizes and is DQed from events? no more PTQ's?
What about store regulars and owners friends. The point of a PTO is to be a neutral party.
This just seems like a terrible idea.
Stores, at least the ones that will be getting this sort of event, actively promote the full line of WotC products, not just Magic. They provide a place for people to play and utilize WotC's products outside of tournaments, and they run several smaller tournaments a week for Magic.
The idea is to reward stores that are actively marketing for and promoting WotC's brands, as well as stores facilitating playing magic.
The big PTO's don't do any of that.
This just even MORE push towards local level magic playing and promoting. Wizrds knows where the money is. And its not in mega event organizers.
Probably not very... which is why they will do exactly the same thing that PTO's do and get outside judges to come judge the events.
I'm going to guess... zero. Since none of the existing judges are going to magically disappear.
Which is why the average store owner won't be getting PTQ's. There are many, many store owners that aren't nefarious, and have run big tournaments before. These are the sorts that will be getting PTQ's.
The same thing that happens when a professional event organizer does the same thing?
What about them? You seem to be extremely worried aobut a lot of non-issues.
On the contrary, it seems like a great idea if what WotC wants to do is promote local game play and local stores... which is what they want to do.
Insert witty phrase here
There is absolutely nothing prohibiting a store from renting out a hall just like the old PTO did...
The restriction here is not on where the PTQ is held, but on who is organizing it.
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It's not that bad of a problem. In Albuquerque, New Mexico, an LGS already handles all the PTO work. (Activimaginaton, for reference). Maybe it's just cheaper to rent out a large space in ABQ than elsewhere, but renting a Convention Center for two days is, generally speaking, fairly cheap (when compared to the potential revenue).
My only worry is that Plane Tickets will be removed from the prizes if this happens. If they are, then about 90% of semi-pros are ****ed.
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