I didn't read this forum when Onslaught came out, but from what you say, it seems that they complained about morph before they knew all the rules. So it was premature hate rage. With double faced cards, it's different. They put up all the rules concerning their workings and handlings and only after reading them, I realized how horrible they are. So I - and others around here - aren't spilling premature hate. No, we voice our concern about something we fully understand.
You know what all these mechanics (and every other card printed so far) have in common? They are all Magic cards with the same back side. Double face cards aren't just a new mechanic that work outside the current rules of the game... they work outside the game itself.
This is not about a new rule or a rules change. Double faced cards don't change the rules of the game... they change the game itself. They cause a big hassle just so you can keep playing Magic. I'd like to play Magic without all this added commotion, thank you very much.
Double faced cards aren't a rule, they are a physical change to the game. The golden rule says nothing about that - and for a good reason: It assumes that no matter how a new mechanic changes the rules, it will still be inside the parameters of the game. Double faced cards work outside the parameters of the game. (Also, doesn't breaking the golden rule mean that no rules can be broken? ;))
Tell ya what, if it makes you feel better you can look at it like this:
They came out with this new mechanic!!! Transform =D
Transform changes the creature's (or other things) type, color, abilities and colors and all creatures with transform have the added ability to not be turned face down!
yeah you get these sweet cards that have a list of all transforming cards and you just pick which one you want to play with.
When you play this "Transform card" you put a token into play of the chosen creature
What's cool, is to save trees, they put the token of the other creature the card transforms into on the back! (since tokens dont have normal backs anyway)
Feel better? They don't change the game.
It's an ability. A very flavorful one at that. It is going to work with all of the other rules in magic and it won't be a big deal. You are just whining about something that you haven't even used. The morphing argument was a very good one. It isn't game breaking.
I myself, am very excited to finally see a set with so much flavor again.
Now please, quit pooping on the party.
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And if you use the checklist cards, then there's no practical differences. Split cards changed the physical appearance of the game more than these if you're using checklist cards.
Seems like "physical appearence" were the wrong words. I didn't meant them to stand for "looks". A split card just changes the look of the card face, but if you turn it over, it is still a regular Magic card. Same goes for flip cards, levelers, planeswalkers, etc. Double face cards aren't like them. They are physically different from any other Magic card. Just like a round "card" would be different from any other Magic card.
Tell ya what, if it makes you feel better you can look at it like this:
They came out with this new mechanic!!! Transform =D
[...]
It's an ability. A very flavorful one at that.
The thing is, I love the flavor of the mechanic transform. I just hate the physical implementation - the double faced cards - of it. As I've said before, we need to differentiate between those two.
It is going to work with all of the other rules in magic and it won't be a big deal. You are just whining about something that you haven't even used. The morphing argument was a very good one. It isn't game breaking.
They needed half a dozen rules changes and even physical assistance to make double faced cards even barely work.
I am not whining. It is not a mechanic I don't need to play with those cards to know how they play, because double faced cards concern more than game play itself. They change the so far constant game componants, creating an annoying irregularity.
Morphing wasn't game breaking because it was just another mechanic. Double faced cards aren't just a mechanic (see above). The comparison is therefore flawed.
Seems like "physical appearence" were the wrong words. I didn't meant them to stand for "looks". A split card just changes the look of the card face, but if you turn it over, it is still a regular Magic card. Same goes for flip cards, levelers, planeswalkers, etc. Double face cards aren't like them. They are physically different from any other Magic card. Just like a round "card" would be different from any other Magic card.
And if you use the checklist cards, there's no practical difference.
There's two kinds of people in this thread.
1. There are the people who are concerned about the DFC's messing with the game and believe that anyone who sees them differently is crazy.
2. There are the people who are eager to see them and try to hush the people in the first group for expressing a legitimate concern.
and then there are the other people:
3. The people who understand both sides but are just waiting for the physical cardstock to be in their hands before making a judgement.
4. The people who dislike the DFC's and are looking forward to everything else.
5. WOTC. 'Cause they already played with them and made their decision.
And is anyone else aware that this set has been in development since (at least) Zendikar? Maybe, unpopular as it is, DFC's are the best way to go. WOTC would have used them and alternatives to them for at least a year now. MaRo and the rest of the staff wouldn't admit that DFC's are a bad decision until after the block for two reasons: They don't want to hurt sales, and it hasn't been community-tested yet. Future Future League is effective at streamlining the cards, but it isn't this wonderful and varied community that Innistrad will face in about three weeks.
Let's keep an open mind. I'm sure somebody in that design team knew what they were doing.
I just want to point out that this is not a mere rules change: Double face cards change the physical appearence of the game and how the game components themselves are handled. This is something that so far hasn't been done - and for good reason. I think a clear definition of what double faced cards are helps to point out why this change is different from any before it.
I don't buy it. There's an implicit "and there's a meta rule that magic can't be magic anymore if we change the card back" - but I don't think there is any such meta rule. I don't think this is any more different from the norm than printing two entire magic cards on the face of a single physical card is, for example. It's certainly different from that mechanic, but it's no more different from the norm.
In short, I don't think changing the card back is that big of a deal, as long as the rules are written to support it properly.
I have my reservations about the mechanic, mind. I'm not convinced it will play well, and logistics are the reason I'm skeptical. But this is the same kind of skepticism around Level-Up and Infect.
As "the werewolf" I don't mind this after I thought a lot about it.
My biggest problem is if this does well will they do it again cuz changing the back should not happen often.
Oh and I want a one drop werewolf even if it only becomes a grizzly bear.
I have my reservations about the mechanic, mind. I'm not convinced it will play well, and logistics are the reason I'm skeptical. But this is the same kind of skepticism around Level-Up and Infect.
I'm not sure how comforting that's supposed to be. Level-Up turned out alright (Kabira Vindicator:cool:), but infect was horribly polarising. I can;t even use my infect cards in my kitchen table matches, because every single one of my friends hates the mechanic. Flavour, as much as I consider it the be-all and end-all of Magic, doesn't always translate well into good gameplay.
I'm not sure how comforting that's supposed to be. Level-Up turned out alright (Kabira Vindicator:cool:), but infect was horribly polarising. I can;t even use my infect cards in my kitchen table matches, because every single one of my friends hates the mechanic. Flavour, as much as I consider it the be-all and end-all of Magic, doesn't always translate well into good gameplay.
do they hate it cuz its too powerful in casual cuz thats what my group thinks.
And that last statement is so true for many things in this game... aww I can't think of any besides the legend rule.
So apparently, Magic's been kiddy for a long time. Hurr hurr.
As a card you could only get from a book promo that noone ever used. It was pretty dumb then and it is now, some people want this game to be yugioh and pokemon though so power to them.
do they hate it cuz its too powerful in casual cuz thats what my group thinks.
And that last statement is so true for many things in this game... aww I can't think of any besides the legend rule.
My playgroup (myself included) just think it makes for an un-fun play environment. How good it is is relative if nobody wants to play.
As a card you could only get from a book promo that noone ever used. It was pretty dumb then and it is now, some people want this game to be yugioh and pokemon though so power to them.
I SUMMON YOU SELLOUT BORING CARD DESIGN.
Because it hasn't been used multiple times since then, right?
As a card you could only get from a book promo that noone ever used. It was pretty dumb then and it is now, some people want this game to be yugioh and pokemon though so power to them.
I SUMMON YOU SELLOUT BORING CARD DESIGN.
It is actually a nice ability and I like that they keyworded it. And as pointed out by Kaseladen, there have been over a dozen cards with that ability over the years:
I just dont understand why they did not print these cards in two pieces. With ruling like this.
Because they couldn't ensure the right cards would wind up together in every booster. This was Rosewater's original plan for the mechanic and he wrote about why it didn't happen in his column this week.
As a card you could only get from a book promo that noone ever used. It was pretty dumb then and it is now, some people want this game to be yugioh and pokemon though so power to them.
I SUMMON YOU SELLOUT BORING CARD DESIGN.
What's so pokemon about having creatures damage one another, if it's been in Magic since before pokemon ?
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As others have said, it's problematic with Draft, and it increases the amount of stuff to track in Constructed/Sealed.
I'm not fond of the idea of people knowing what colors I'm drafting by watching as I draft. I'm not fond of the idea of carrying around extra cards that I have to make sure aren't shuffled into my deck by accident.
I think it opens the doors to cheating, by keeping a pile of checklists and cards and switching them when no one's looking. Claiming that there wasn't cheating because "Look, here's the checklist I marked earlier, I can't change it!".
I'm also not fond of the keywords, I think it'll cause problems because it gives the impression of combat occurring when it's actually an activated ability. I'm putting "Morbid" up there as another poor keyword, as it doesn't actually reflect what's occurring.
I love the flavor of the set, but the double-sided cards make it a definite "No buy" for me. The keywords are a bit of a turn-off as well, they wouldn't make me not buy alone, but with the double-sided cards I don't feel I'm missing anything.
My thoughts...
I'm not fond of the idea of people knowing what colors I'm drafting by watching as I draft. I'm not fond of the idea of carrying around extra cards that I have to make sure aren't shuffled into my deck by accident.
I think it opens the doors to cheating, by keeping a pile of checklists and cards and switching them when no one's looking. Claiming that there wasn't cheating because "Look, here's the checklist I marked earlier, I can't change it!".
If people are going to try to cheat, they'll try to cheat. There are easier ways. This argument holds as much merit as my hat holds water.
I'm also not fond of the keywords, I think it'll cause problems because it gives the impression of combat occurring when it's actually an activated ability. I'm putting "Morbid" up there as another poor keyword, as it doesn't actually reflect what's occurring.
Yes, it's an activated ability. That simulates forced combat. I don't see an issue with it's name. As for morbid, here's a definition:
Characterized by or appealing to an abnormal and unhealthy interest in disturbing and unpleasant subjects, esp. death and disease
This seems pretty spot on for a mechanic that wants things to die.
I love the flavor of the set, but the double-sided cards make it a definite "No buy" for me. The keywords are a bit of a turn-off as well, they wouldn't make me not buy alone, but with the double-sided cards I don't feel I'm missing anything.
Alright, don't buy a set based on disliking 9% of the cards (transform). Or the probably similar amount using morbid. More cards for me.
I certainly agree the sort of mess the double-faced cards will do..... This is really forcing people to BUY sleeves, but if Wizards is wise enough to provide them for sealed tourneys (ha, ha, who are we kidding), then okay...
Oh well, let's pray that this 2-faced cards won't show up too often, and will stop once Innistrad is over.
also foils tend to bend specially if you are not the kind of player that uses sleeves, combined with the fact that people will be suspicious at first of anyone using checklist does make it sound like a recipe for a warning for marked cards.
also foils tend to bend specially if you are not the kind of player that uses sleeves, combined with the fact that people will be suspicious at first of anyone using checklist does make it sound like a recipe for a warning for marked cards.
If there are foil checklist cards, I'm collecting them.
As far as mechanics go, is it just me, or does it feel like there should be at least one more? Morbid doesn't really feel so much like a mechanic as it is just a trigger that got a keyword.
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As far as mechanics go, is it just me, or does it feel like there should be at least one more? Morbid doesn't really feel so much like a mechanic as it is just a trigger that got a keyword.
Yes, the mechanics lineup does feel a bit lacking.
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Tell ya what, if it makes you feel better you can look at it like this:
They came out with this new mechanic!!! Transform =D
Transform changes the creature's (or other things) type, color, abilities and colors and all creatures with transform have the added ability to not be turned face down!
yeah you get these sweet cards that have a list of all transforming cards and you just pick which one you want to play with.
When you play this "Transform card" you put a token into play of the chosen creature
What's cool, is to save trees, they put the token of the other creature the card transforms into on the back! (since tokens dont have normal backs anyway)
Feel better? They don't change the game.
It's an ability. A very flavorful one at that. It is going to work with all of the other rules in magic and it won't be a big deal. You are just whining about something that you haven't even used. The morphing argument was a very good one. It isn't game breaking.
I myself, am very excited to finally see a set with so much flavor again.
Now please, quit pooping on the party.
Seems like "physical appearence" were the wrong words. I didn't meant them to stand for "looks". A split card just changes the look of the card face, but if you turn it over, it is still a regular Magic card. Same goes for flip cards, levelers, planeswalkers, etc. Double face cards aren't like them. They are physically different from any other Magic card. Just like a round "card" would be different from any other Magic card.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
The thing is, I love the flavor of the mechanic transform. I just hate the physical implementation - the double faced cards - of it. As I've said before, we need to differentiate between those two.
They needed half a dozen rules changes and even physical assistance to make double faced cards even barely work.
I am not whining. It is not a mechanic I don't need to play with those cards to know how they play, because double faced cards concern more than game play itself. They change the so far constant game componants, creating an annoying irregularity.
Morphing wasn't game breaking because it was just another mechanic. Double faced cards aren't just a mechanic (see above). The comparison is therefore flawed.
What a great party... half the guests ignore the elephant in the room while ridiculing the other half that dares mentioning it.
Edit: Whoops, sorry for double posting.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
And if you use the checklist cards, there's no practical difference.
1. There are the people who are concerned about the DFC's messing with the game and believe that anyone who sees them differently is crazy.
2. There are the people who are eager to see them and try to hush the people in the first group for expressing a legitimate concern.
and then there are the other people:
3. The people who understand both sides but are just waiting for the physical cardstock to be in their hands before making a judgement.
4. The people who dislike the DFC's and are looking forward to everything else.
5. WOTC. 'Cause they already played with them and made their decision.
And is anyone else aware that this set has been in development since (at least) Zendikar? Maybe, unpopular as it is, DFC's are the best way to go. WOTC would have used them and alternatives to them for at least a year now. MaRo and the rest of the staff wouldn't admit that DFC's are a bad decision until after the block for two reasons: They don't want to hurt sales, and it hasn't been community-tested yet. Future Future League is effective at streamlining the cards, but it isn't this wonderful and varied community that Innistrad will face in about three weeks.
Let's keep an open mind. I'm sure somebody in that design team knew what they were doing.
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I don't buy it. There's an implicit "and there's a meta rule that magic can't be magic anymore if we change the card back" - but I don't think there is any such meta rule. I don't think this is any more different from the norm than printing two entire magic cards on the face of a single physical card is, for example. It's certainly different from that mechanic, but it's no more different from the norm.
In short, I don't think changing the card back is that big of a deal, as long as the rules are written to support it properly.
I have my reservations about the mechanic, mind. I'm not convinced it will play well, and logistics are the reason I'm skeptical. But this is the same kind of skepticism around Level-Up and Infect.
My biggest problem is if this does well will they do it again cuz changing the back should not happen often.
Oh and I want a one drop werewolf even if it only becomes a grizzly bear.
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I'm not sure how comforting that's supposed to be. Level-Up turned out alright (Kabira Vindicator:cool:), but infect was horribly polarising. I can;t even use my infect cards in my kitchen table matches, because every single one of my friends hates the mechanic. Flavour, as much as I consider it the be-all and end-all of Magic, doesn't always translate well into good gameplay.
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do they hate it cuz its too powerful in casual cuz thats what my group thinks.
And that last statement is so true for many things in this game... aww I can't think of any besides the legend rule.
Thanx to Bookworm10 for the Sig.
Check out my YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/ThyrixSyx
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As a card you could only get from a book promo that noone ever used. It was pretty dumb then and it is now, some people want this game to be yugioh and pokemon though so power to them.
I SUMMON YOU SELLOUT BORING CARD DESIGN.
My playgroup (myself included) just think it makes for an un-fun play environment. How good it is is relative if nobody wants to play.
Because it hasn't been used multiple times since then, right?
It is actually a nice ability and I like that they keyworded it. And as pointed out by Kaseladen, there have been over a dozen cards with that ability over the years:
I like especially that "fighting" gives green a flavorful way to directly kill nonflying creatures.
Uril, the Miststalker RGW -- Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre C -- Vhati il-Dal BG -- Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer RW -- Animar, Soul of Elements URG
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker R -- Maga, Traitor to Mortals B -- Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW -- Sliver Hivelord WUBRG
Because they couldn't ensure the right cards would wind up together in every booster. This was Rosewater's original plan for the mechanic and he wrote about why it didn't happen in his column this week.
What's so pokemon about having creatures damage one another, if it's been in Magic since before pokemon ?
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I do not like it.
As others have said, it's problematic with Draft, and it increases the amount of stuff to track in Constructed/Sealed.
I'm not fond of the idea of people knowing what colors I'm drafting by watching as I draft. I'm not fond of the idea of carrying around extra cards that I have to make sure aren't shuffled into my deck by accident.
I think it opens the doors to cheating, by keeping a pile of checklists and cards and switching them when no one's looking. Claiming that there wasn't cheating because "Look, here's the checklist I marked earlier, I can't change it!".
I'm also not fond of the keywords, I think it'll cause problems because it gives the impression of combat occurring when it's actually an activated ability. I'm putting "Morbid" up there as another poor keyword, as it doesn't actually reflect what's occurring.
I love the flavor of the set, but the double-sided cards make it a definite "No buy" for me. The keywords are a bit of a turn-off as well, they wouldn't make me not buy alone, but with the double-sided cards I don't feel I'm missing anything.
Then don't draft them. Or play them.
If people are going to try to cheat, they'll try to cheat. There are easier ways. This argument holds as much merit as my hat holds water.
Yes, it's an activated ability. That simulates forced combat. I don't see an issue with it's name. As for morbid, here's a definition:
Characterized by or appealing to an abnormal and unhealthy interest in disturbing and unpleasant subjects, esp. death and disease
This seems pretty spot on for a mechanic that wants things to die.
Alright, don't buy a set based on disliking 9% of the cards (transform). Or the probably similar amount using morbid. More cards for me.
Oh well, let's pray that this 2-faced cards won't show up too often, and will stop once Innistrad is over.
No problem with the rest of the mechanics though.
Sweet baby Jesus, you ask the real questions.
It's in a basic land slot, so I don't see why there wouldn't be? And now I feel like I need a shiny one!
i... actually want one of those.
hmm =D
Wouldn't a foil checklist be harder to write on?
also foils tend to bend specially if you are not the kind of player that uses sleeves, combined with the fact that people will be suspicious at first of anyone using checklist does make it sound like a recipe for a warning for marked cards.
If there are foil checklist cards, I'm collecting them.
As far as mechanics go, is it just me, or does it feel like there should be at least one more? Morbid doesn't really feel so much like a mechanic as it is just a trigger that got a keyword.
Legendary Creature – Human Designer (MR)
Brian Tinsman, Set Designer can only be cast during the third set of a block.
When Brian Tinsman, Set Designer enters the battlefield, ignore all flavor and mechanics of the first two sets in the block.
"Ok so what do we have here... gothic horror? Scrap it. Expand the Devine Vs. Demonic duel deck to 244 cards and print it!"
2/2
Yes, the mechanics lineup does feel a bit lacking.
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