An open challenge to the people that think is card is fair vs. the theft archtype.
You name me one card that meets these standards and I will apologize to you and say you are the greatest and that I am a whinning biatch.
1) This card "hinders" an archtype (pick anyone for your example)
2) This card does not use the stack. So it can't be countered.
3) Is does not have any kind of drawback. (mana costs as well)
4) It's effect is reusable. (The effect is on the stack, but how many stifles you got?)
5) The archtype that you say that it "hinders" can't have many answers to it.
Edit: I have changed a few words for some people. Good luck...
This seems a bit melodramatic.
Maybe my rules knowledge is lapsing, but this does not hose enchantment based theft. Those are continuous effects that will apply again as soon as State Based Effects check. So at worst it hoses half of your thieving? And even then only the creatures. But maybe I don't understand this rules situation, but I'd want to hear from a judge otherwise before I believe otherwise.
But if you want an answer to your over reaction, Strip Mine and friends all hose this strategy, which hoses your strategy. As lands, they also meet your criteria. So it seems that you are even with this card on the hosing.
To those who don't think this is a big deal because it's only printed in one deck- it doesn't matter how much it's printed, people can buy it as singles or proxy it now that it exists. As a side note, any guesses to how much this land will cost as a single?
I think I'd be alright with this if it only hosed blue, but messing with reanimation kinda sucks. Anyways, here's my Memnarch deck's gameplan if I start seeing this land too often:
Don't look at any of us to fix your decks problem. Figure out what can be taken out to make room for cards that act as answers to your opponents cards. The answers are so simplistic that even my niece gets what I'm talking about.
Maybe my rules knowledge is lapsing, but this does not hose enchantment based theft. Those are continuous effects that will apply again as soon as State Based Effects check. So at worst it hoses half of your thieving? And even then only the creatures. But maybe I don't understand this rules situation, but I'd want to hear from a judge otherwise before I believe otherwise.
You're not understanding the rules right. This land still negates enchant based creature stealing.
Understand this. I have no probelms with this card. Magic is all about change and adapt. Like we do every new set or ban list. My arguement is there is no "hoser" or "hinderance" of a archtype like this one. Nothing on the same power level.
And strip mine is a one time use thing that doesn't deal with an archtype..
Edit: The challenge might of been melodramatic but it gets my point across. The card has no equal on the level of hate it has for one archtype.
Well ok, that last one isn't a card... but it is a really easy way to have your theft deck still work!
Don't they already get an activation and have you have to sac one of your own lands? Worst case for them, it draws out a strip mine/wasteland and saves another of their lands from it. I know it isn't the end all be all, and it is obviously answerable, but it seems a little too potent. I am of the place of mind that a reusable hoser shouldn't be on a land that tap for mana and doesn't cipt. You don't lose the game when it hits play, don't get me wrong, but it hoses both opponent reanimation and blue creature steal on a land, with no drawback or investment.
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Quote from Fry, from Futurama »
It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for the winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came and the grasshopper died and the octopus ate all his acorns. And also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?
It hoses blue steal effects.
It hoses red steal effects.
It hoses black GY recursion from other players graveyards.
All of these are primary or secondary strategies for many decks in these colors. Add to that the limited availability of the card and the fact that it will be endemic in online play (everyone on a client like cockatrice will include it in every deck), it will break a lot of things about the format. It hoses about 150 cards while being stoppable by only a few which will see real play in EDH (stripmine, wasteland, terastadon, beast within, vindicate - mass LD is still not a viable option). This card is just too good - no downside at all other than producing colorless. Doesn't even come into play tapped.
It is not like Bog - bog happens once during your main phase. Bog also only hoses recursion. This happens every turn at instant speed.
Just an example of Wizards screwing with the players format without adequate testing.
Imagine that an enchantment were made:
0
No More Stealing
Enchantment
No More Stealing cannot be countered. No More Stealing may only be destroyed by spells or effects that can destroy lands. You may not play a land the turn it comes into play.
If any creature is controlled by a player other than its owner, you may return all creatures to their owner's control at any time.
Any turn during which you do not do this, add 1 to your mana pool.
It is an extremely poorly designed card, to cater to the whiners.
It is colorless, it hoses not just "stealing" his actually hoses most of the what makes blue viable. They printed a colorless activation on a LAND, make it effect everyone, and included it in each deck.
Now before you foaming at the mouth spike-haters jump down my throat, try and think objectively about this for more than .10 of a second.
This would be the same as if they printed a land that said "Any creature that would do more than 6 damage in a turn, instead does zero damage." Because effectively that's what this does, it completely destroys alot of blues usually great cards. And before you think well blue = spike = haha you deserve it, I happen to know quite alot of my own meta game uses blue casually and fun, and has creature stealing.
My deck only has literally one steal effect and that is bribery so its not a big deal to me, but I can see it hurting the format more than it helps. You all can be selfish and greedy about it, but the truth is, it a poorly designed card. But hey, if I ever played in a group with you who support this card like it is the second coming, I would be glad to laugh in your face as i cast my normal Armageddon, because you would deserve it.
But if you want an answer to your over reaction, Strip Mine and friends all hose this strategy, which hoses your strategy. As lands, they also meet your criteria. So it seems that you are even with this card on the hosing.
The difference is that theft is an archetype, while hosing theft is not. While strip mine and friends are uncounterable answers, they don't shut down a whole slice of blue's color pie. (and a bit of black and red... and a tiny bit of green and white :p)
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Mono-Colored EDH 1 Ulamog 1 ◊ W Avacyn W ◊ U Memnarch U◊ B Endrek B◊ R Urabrask R ◊ G YevaG
There's still no card that compares to this one. Your just trying to insult my deck building skills of a none existant deck that I have, so you don't have to answer this question. We already stated the 4 colorless LD lands, and a few cards to steal the land or bounce it. There are a few answers, not many.
Yes we understand that YOU don't have a blue-steal deck. I'm calling into question,the deck building skills of the people who DO have a blue-steal deck.
Answers that are viable in blue are the following:
Do a favor for another player in exchange for them destroying it.
Bribery someones creature that has land destruction as a ETB ability (Acidic Slime)
Tap down mechanics to buy you time.
Then there is the more dramatic ways of dealing with it:
Ban it from your playgroup.
Adjusts the cards ability for your playgroup.
Cry on the MTGS boards.
These are just off the top of my head, if I did some searching I'm sure I could come up with more.
To those who don't think this is a big deal because it's only printed in one deck- it doesn't matter how much it's printed, people can buy it as singles or proxy it now that it exists. As a side note, any guesses to how much this land will cost as a single?
I think I'd be alright with this if it only hosed blue, but messing with reanimation kinda sucks. Anyways, here's my Memnarch deck's gameplan if I start seeing this land too often:
Combined with card draw, I should eventually be able to deal with this thing every game.
I imagine this card will be at least ten bucks. (or that buying the deck at walmart and selling the rest of the rares to a card shop might cost you that much.)
And strip mine is a one time use thing that doesn't deal with an archetype..
"homeward path" is not an archetype. Its a singular card.
Strip mine asnwers it once.
Ghost quarter answers it another time.
Wasteland answers it another time.
Tectonic Edge answers it another time.
Pithing needle answers it every time.
Stifle answers it the turn it hits, buying you a turn.
Trickbind answers it the turn it hits, buying you a turn.
voidmage husher answers it the turn it hits, buying you a turn.
Not overextending allows you to not get blown out when you don't answer it immediately, and allows you to bounce back once you do.
Not building your deck like a one trick pony allows you to survive while you find answers, or even win without finding an answer.
All of those are possible in mono-blue. Branch into another colour (red or green) and you get TONS more answers available to you.
I can get pretty close with Leyline of the Void against mono-black graveyard shenanigans. Very hard for black to deal with enchantments. It only fails 2), but countering isn't something black does anyway, and when it's out at the start of the game . . .
EDIT: reading the rules, it looks like if you start with it in play at the beginning it can't be countered anyway.
But you see... Leyline is a dead card if you arent playing against graveyard tactics. Homeward Path is still a land that still taps for mana and thus it doesnt have a downside. Leyline can be a dead card unless playing against an opponent playing that tactic.
On top of that it still leaves your graveyard open to be hated on. Thus the graveyard tactics still have an outlet through you depending on the deck you are running.
And finally if you do not opening hand it which is one out of a 100 card deck then it is targetable and they could always use some way of extracting it from your deck or hand.
Ohhh and also Leyline is a black spell so it can obviously only be used in black decks. Homeward Path is usable by all colors.
I think that was sort of a bad example as there are tons of ways in which Leyline of the Void is just a bad card in comparison when looking at hosers. I can run Homeward Path in a meta with only a single theft spell out of all of the decks and I really am not loosing out on anything. Because its still a land that taps for mana and comes in untapped.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Seriously... i came into this thread just KNOWING that there would be whiners. yep, there they are. every strategy has some answers... and this new and innovative card just answered your strategy. now the ball's in your court to adapt or change decks. that's up to you. this does not mean it's unfair or unbalanced in any way. this is the nature of magic... new cards. new answers. adapt. change. play on!
heck, i've been a green player at heart for years. do you know how many times i've raged because all of my awesome green creatures got wrathed away? (and all other forms of mass creature destruction) seems kinda unfair that one card can kill all 3-10 of my creatures doesn't it?
Yeah for an investment, a repercussion for doing so (because its not just killing your cards), and sorcery speed, and only accessible to certain colors.
Say what? Blue has access to some of the best big smashy creatures in the game! Blue is perfectly viable in EDH without any steal affects at all.
I assumed this is talking about where steal effects were most prominent, and that is the casual scene. Most people from what I read on here don't go the next level of blue (the infinite turns, counters out the hoo hoo) ect,l and focus on a casual aspect. Which stealing creatures is fairly balanced, green and red guy plays a fatty, you steal it, now you have a fatty and so do they. GO TO WAR.
Now its just , I have all the creatures and you have try and fight back in your own big creatures. The reason blue steals is to be able to with stand the barrage of those fatties until they can set it up them selves. At least in edh.
But you see... Leyline is a dead card if you arent playing against graveyard tactics. Homeward Path is still a land that still taps for mana and thus it doesnt have a downside. Leyline can be a dead card unless playing against an opponent playing that tactic.
On top of that it still leaves your graveyard open to be hated on. Thus the graveyard tactics still have an outlet through you depending on the deck you are running.
And finally if you do not opening hand it which is one out of a 100 card deck then it is targetable and they could always use some way of extracting it from your deck or hand.
Ohhh and also Leyline is a black spell so it can obviously only be used in black decks. Homeward Path is usable by all colors.
I think that was sort of a bad example as there are tons of ways in which Leyline of the Void is just a bad card in comparison when looking at hosers. I can run Homeward Path in a meta with only a single theft spell out of all of the decks and I really am not loosing out on anything. Because its still a land that taps for mana and comes in untapped.
Yup and I agree. Some of the staples of blue black and to an extent red, are dead cards. Its not all lost sure you can just change your deck, but look what happen when you told people to do that with Emrakul. Yeah that went over well. This card won't last.
"homeward path" is not an archetype. Its a singular card.
Strip mine asnwers it once.
Ghost quarter answers it another time.
Wasteland answers it another time.
Tectonic Edge answers it another time.
Pithing needle answers it every time.
Stifle answers it the turn it hits, buying you a turn.
Trickbind answers it the turn it hits, buying you a turn.
voidmage husher answers it the turn it hits, buying you a turn.
Not overextending allows you to not get blown out when you don't answer it immediately, and allows you to bounce back once you do.
Not building your deck like a one trick pony allows you to survive while you find answers, or even win without finding an answer.
All of those are possible in mono-blue. Branch into another colour (red or green) and you get TONS more answers available to you.
I think you're misunderstanding TheWu's point. We're not saying homeward path is an archetype, we're saying that theft and reanimation is. He's asking of there is any other card that hoses a viable archetype as easily as this land. Obviously there are ways of dealing with it, but is there any other card that fits his criteria? I'm not sure there is.
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Mono-Colored EDH 1 Ulamog 1 ◊ W Avacyn W ◊ U Memnarch U◊ B Endrek B◊ R Urabrask R ◊ G YevaG
"homeward path" is not an archetype. Its a singular card.
I wasn't talking about Homeward Path being an archtype. I was quoting a person that said strip mine was the answer to the "homeward path archetype."
In no ways should this card be banned. Eventually people will eat their hate for this card and adapt.
My point still stands as there is no card that compare to this one for what it does to a single archetype. It's free, uncounterable, reuseable with no drawbacks.
Ohhh and also Leyline is a black spell so it can obviously only be used in black decks. Homeward Path is usable by all colors.
homeward path also kind of *has* to be that strong since its the only thing that coutners a strong strategy. Its not liek graveyard hate which has multiple cheap artifacts already working in its favor. The only cards before that did this were Brand, one time use effect that isn't worth playing, and brooding saurian, which is only available in green.
An open challenge to the people that think is card is fair vs. the theft archtype.
You name me one card that meets these standards and I will apologize to you and say you are the greatest and that I am a whinning biatch.
1) This card kills an archtype (pick anyone for your example)
2) This card does not use the stack. So it can't be countered.
3) Is does not have any kind of drawback. (mana costs as well)
4) It's effect is reusable.
5) The archtype that you say that it hoses can't have many answers to it.
Okay. I'll try. Mind you that this card is not 100% costless, though. Putting a colorless land in decks with three or more colors is actually quite a setback, considering that getting color screwed is a very real possibility if you want to play the color-symbol heavy good cards. Also, in EDH, dropping a low cost card is not that big of a deal, considering that often, not much of interest happens in the early turns (unless your playgroup plays nothing but Arcum Dagson or Azami combo decks, in which case I recommend you find another playgroup).
One more note, I've always really hated the "but it can be counterspelled" argument. Just a gentle reminder that four out of five colors can't counterspell. That's like saying that it's okay for any of the other four to be hosed completely, as long as Blue is fine.
Continuous effect, kills token decks flat-out and makes it nearly impossible for any creature-heavy deck to stand up effectively against against a control deck. Requires land destruction to get rid of, which white has trouble with and green only has limited amounts (and generally not very good ones).
Cursed Totem vs. Any Blue or Black deck dependent on it's General's ability, or those of it's creatures (Azami, Arcum, Geth, etc.)
Being only two mana, it's damn hard to always keep mana open to counter this thing, since unlike Legacy, you can't depend on 4 x Force of Will, 4 x Daze and 4 x Pact of Negation to keep you save. Once it's in play, it's almost impossible for those two colors to get rid of it. Even stealing it doesn't work, since the effect is global. Decks that just beat face wouldn't care less about it and you can put it in every deck at a measly cost. Similar arguments apply to Damping Matrix and to a lesser extend, Pithing Needle.
I've actually had games against Azami that went:
Turn 1: Land, Pithing Needle (Azami)
Azami scoops.
Alright, I will admit that this card requires white to play and doesn't do much otherwise (which is why it doesn't see play). Still, it's probably one of the strongest hosers I've ever seen against an archetype. Enchantment destruction is pretty much impossible for Red and it would nullify the vast majority of the cards in the deck. Not a big deal, though, as few people play land destruction in EDH (tried it once, haven't done it again since half the store rage-quitted on me).
Strip Mine (and friends) vs. Tolarian Academy based infinite mana combo decks.
Oh, wait... that didn't hose it enough, which is why they had to ban the Academy.
This one is probably my best example. The Eldrazi don't even need to be played. Merely having them in your deck is already enough to make you mill-death proof, forcing the mill player to field a couple of cards that otherwise aren't very good to deal with them. Not to mention that the Eldrazi are good finishers in any deck, so it's hardly a waste to put them in there.
Mistveil plains, admittedly, can only be played in white. Still, especially considering that UB can't deal with Enchantments, getting two white permanents to stick should be pretty easy. And once it's online, you can't die from milling anymore and if you actually get milled out, you get a free tutor every turn to boot.
I don't think this one requires elaboration. Any mono-blue deck can just drop the former and cut off between 50% and 100% of their opponent's mana base. And once again, it's pretty cheap and three out of five colors cannot deal with enchantments. The latter is basically a no-brainer in any mono-red deck and basically equals GG is resolved against any multi-colored deck.
At this point people are just trolling. Obviously it is answerable, but the fact that it takes no commitment is nuts. And I see exactly zero answers for it the turn they play it, beyond playing Pithing Needle. Declaring a land. That still taps for mana. Even if they only get one permanent back from it, it's still insanely overpowered, and probably not even worth destroying at that point.
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Quote from Fry, from Futurama »
It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for the winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came and the grasshopper died and the octopus ate all his acorns. And also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?
My point still stands as there is no card that compare to this one for what it does to a single archetype. It's free, uncounterable, reuseable with no drawbacks.
Cool, if thats your "point" then sure you're correct that no other land has that ability, but your point is moot.
WotC has been designing cards that set a precedent all the time. This is just part of the ever evolving game. One day down the road, you'll see another card that can make life ruff for a archetype, it's the nature of the game.
My point still stands as there is no card that compare to this one for what it does to a single archetype. It's free, uncounterable, reuseable with no drawbacks.
My archetype: Mono-Red LD
Your card: Sacred Ground.
Can I counter it? no.
Is it free? essentially, yes. Its close enough to being free that its completely irrelevant.
Is it reusable? Yes. It's always on.
Is there a drawback? No worse a drawback than using your landdrop to play a card that doesn't make your colors.
Yeah for an investment, a repercussion for doing so (because its not just killing your cards), and sorcery speed, and only accessible to certain colors.
Fail.
I was not saying wrath effects are exactly like this land (duh). my point was that all decks have unfair things happen to them. it's up to those decks to adapt to it.
gy decks have gy hate.
creature decks have wrath effects.
combo decks have counters/disruption/discard.
and now there's an answer to steal decks.
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This seems a bit melodramatic.
Maybe my rules knowledge is lapsing, but this does not hose enchantment based theft. Those are continuous effects that will apply again as soon as State Based Effects check. So at worst it hoses half of your thieving? And even then only the creatures. But maybe I don't understand this rules situation, but I'd want to hear from a judge otherwise before I believe otherwise.
But if you want an answer to your over reaction, Strip Mine and friends all hose this strategy, which hoses your strategy. As lands, they also meet your criteria. So it seems that you are even with this card on the hosing.
I think I'd be alright with this if it only hosed blue, but messing with reanimation kinda sucks. Anyways, here's my Memnarch deck's gameplan if I start seeing this land too often:
Expedition Map -> Strip Mine / Wasteland / Ghost Quarter
Tolaria West -> Strip Mine / Wasteland / Ghost Quarter
Fabricate -> Expedition Map / Crucible of Worlds
Tezzeret the Seeker -> Expedition Map / Crucible of Worlds
Mystical Tutor -> Fabricate
Trinket Mage -> Pithing Needle / Expedition Map
Drift of Phantasms -> Fabricate / Crucible of Worlds / Trinket Mage
Combined with card draw, I should eventually be able to deal with this thing every game.
1 Ulamog 1 ◊ W Avacyn W ◊ U Memnarch U ◊ B Endrek B ◊ R Urabrask R ◊ G Yeva G
Don't look at any of us to fix your decks problem. Figure out what can be taken out to make room for cards that act as answers to your opponents cards. The answers are so simplistic that even my niece gets what I'm talking about.
You're not understanding the rules right. This land still negates enchant based creature stealing.
And strip mine is a one time use thing that doesn't deal with an archtype..
Edit: The challenge might of been melodramatic but it gets my point across. The card has no equal on the level of hate it has for one archtype.
Don't they already get an activation and have you have to sac one of your own lands? Worst case for them, it draws out a strip mine/wasteland and saves another of their lands from it. I know it isn't the end all be all, and it is obviously answerable, but it seems a little too potent. I am of the place of mind that a reusable hoser shouldn't be on a land that tap for mana and doesn't cipt. You don't lose the game when it hits play, don't get me wrong, but it hoses both opponent reanimation and blue creature steal on a land, with no drawback or investment.
It hoses blue steal effects.
It hoses red steal effects.
It hoses black GY recursion from other players graveyards.
All of these are primary or secondary strategies for many decks in these colors. Add to that the limited availability of the card and the fact that it will be endemic in online play (everyone on a client like cockatrice will include it in every deck), it will break a lot of things about the format. It hoses about 150 cards while being stoppable by only a few which will see real play in EDH (stripmine, wasteland, terastadon, beast within, vindicate - mass LD is still not a viable option). This card is just too good - no downside at all other than producing colorless. Doesn't even come into play tapped.
It is not like Bog - bog happens once during your main phase. Bog also only hoses recursion. This happens every turn at instant speed.
Just an example of Wizards screwing with the players format without adequate testing.
Imagine that an enchantment were made:
0
No More Stealing
Enchantment
No More Stealing cannot be countered. No More Stealing may only be destroyed by spells or effects that can destroy lands. You may not play a land the turn it comes into play.
If any creature is controlled by a player other than its owner, you may return all creatures to their owner's control at any time.
Any turn during which you do not do this, add 1 to your mana pool.
--
That's awfully good for 0.
(Multiplayer)
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of Jund
WUBSharuum the Hegemon
(American 1v1)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking Grave
WUGDerevi
It is colorless, it hoses not just "stealing" his actually hoses most of the what makes blue viable. They printed a colorless activation on a LAND, make it effect everyone, and included it in each deck.
Now before you foaming at the mouth spike-haters jump down my throat, try and think objectively about this for more than .10 of a second.
This would be the same as if they printed a land that said "Any creature that would do more than 6 damage in a turn, instead does zero damage." Because effectively that's what this does, it completely destroys alot of blues usually great cards. And before you think well blue = spike = haha you deserve it, I happen to know quite alot of my own meta game uses blue casually and fun, and has creature stealing.
My deck only has literally one steal effect and that is bribery so its not a big deal to me, but I can see it hurting the format more than it helps. You all can be selfish and greedy about it, but the truth is, it a poorly designed card. But hey, if I ever played in a group with you who support this card like it is the second coming, I would be glad to laugh in your face as i cast my normal Armageddon, because you would deserve it.
The difference is that theft is an archetype, while hosing theft is not. While strip mine and friends are uncounterable answers, they don't shut down a whole slice of blue's color pie. (and a bit of black and red... and a tiny bit of green and white :p)
1 Ulamog 1 ◊ W Avacyn W ◊ U Memnarch U ◊ B Endrek B ◊ R Urabrask R ◊ G Yeva G
Yes we understand that YOU don't have a blue-steal deck. I'm calling into question,the deck building skills of the people who DO have a blue-steal deck.
Answers that are viable in blue are the following:
Strip Mine
Ghost Quarter
Wasteland
Tectonic Edge
Dust Bowl
Karn Liberated
Pithing Needle
Ark of Blight
I'm sure there's more viable answers. These are just from this thread and off the top of my head.
Other ways to deal with this card in blue (less viable):
Spreading Seas
Stifle
Avarice Totem
Phantasmal Terrain
Jesters Cap
Rootwater Thief
Then there is "other" ways of dealing this it:
Do a favor for another player in exchange for them destroying it.
Bribery someones creature that has land destruction as a ETB ability (Acidic Slime)
Tap down mechanics to buy you time.
Then there is the more dramatic ways of dealing with it:
Ban it from your playgroup.
Adjusts the cards ability for your playgroup.
Cry on the MTGS boards.
These are just off the top of my head, if I did some searching I'm sure I could come up with more.
I imagine this card will be at least ten bucks. (or that buying the deck at walmart and selling the rest of the rares to a card shop might cost you that much.)
"homeward path" is not an archetype. Its a singular card.
Strip mine asnwers it once.
Ghost quarter answers it another time.
Wasteland answers it another time.
Tectonic Edge answers it another time.
Pithing needle answers it every time.
Stifle answers it the turn it hits, buying you a turn.
Trickbind answers it the turn it hits, buying you a turn.
voidmage husher answers it the turn it hits, buying you a turn.
Not overextending allows you to not get blown out when you don't answer it immediately, and allows you to bounce back once you do.
Not building your deck like a one trick pony allows you to survive while you find answers, or even win without finding an answer.
All of those are possible in mono-blue. Branch into another colour (red or green) and you get TONS more answers available to you.
Say what? Blue has access to some of the best big smashy creatures in the game! Blue is perfectly viable in EDH without any steal affects at all.
But you see... Leyline is a dead card if you arent playing against graveyard tactics. Homeward Path is still a land that still taps for mana and thus it doesnt have a downside. Leyline can be a dead card unless playing against an opponent playing that tactic.
On top of that it still leaves your graveyard open to be hated on. Thus the graveyard tactics still have an outlet through you depending on the deck you are running.
And finally if you do not opening hand it which is one out of a 100 card deck then it is targetable and they could always use some way of extracting it from your deck or hand.
Ohhh and also Leyline is a black spell so it can obviously only be used in black decks. Homeward Path is usable by all colors.
I think that was sort of a bad example as there are tons of ways in which Leyline of the Void is just a bad card in comparison when looking at hosers. I can run Homeward Path in a meta with only a single theft spell out of all of the decks and I really am not loosing out on anything. Because its still a land that taps for mana and comes in untapped.
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[Modern] Allies
Yeah for an investment, a repercussion for doing so (because its not just killing your cards), and sorcery speed, and only accessible to certain colors.
Fail.
I assumed this is talking about where steal effects were most prominent, and that is the casual scene. Most people from what I read on here don't go the next level of blue (the infinite turns, counters out the hoo hoo) ect,l and focus on a casual aspect. Which stealing creatures is fairly balanced, green and red guy plays a fatty, you steal it, now you have a fatty and so do they. GO TO WAR.
Now its just , I have all the creatures and you have try and fight back in your own big creatures. The reason blue steals is to be able to with stand the barrage of those fatties until they can set it up them selves. At least in edh.
Yup and I agree. Some of the staples of blue black and to an extent red, are dead cards. Its not all lost sure you can just change your deck, but look what happen when you told people to do that with Emrakul. Yeah that went over well. This card won't last.
I think you're misunderstanding TheWu's point. We're not saying homeward path is an archetype, we're saying that theft and reanimation is. He's asking of there is any other card that hoses a viable archetype as easily as this land. Obviously there are ways of dealing with it, but is there any other card that fits his criteria? I'm not sure there is.
1 Ulamog 1 ◊ W Avacyn W ◊ U Memnarch U ◊ B Endrek B ◊ R Urabrask R ◊ G Yeva G
I wasn't talking about Homeward Path being an archtype. I was quoting a person that said strip mine was the answer to the "homeward path archetype."
In no ways should this card be banned. Eventually people will eat their hate for this card and adapt.
My point still stands as there is no card that compare to this one for what it does to a single archetype. It's free, uncounterable, reuseable with no drawbacks.
homeward path also kind of *has* to be that strong since its the only thing that coutners a strong strategy. Its not liek graveyard hate which has multiple cheap artifacts already working in its favor. The only cards before that did this were Brand, one time use effect that isn't worth playing, and brooding saurian, which is only available in green.
Okay. I'll try. Mind you that this card is not 100% costless, though. Putting a colorless land in decks with three or more colors is actually quite a setback, considering that getting color screwed is a very real possibility if you want to play the color-symbol heavy good cards. Also, in EDH, dropping a low cost card is not that big of a deal, considering that often, not much of interest happens in the early turns (unless your playgroup plays nothing but Arcum Dagson or Azami combo decks, in which case I recommend you find another playgroup).
One more note, I've always really hated the "but it can be counterspelled" argument. Just a gentle reminder that four out of five colors can't counterspell. That's like saying that it's okay for any of the other four to be hosed completely, as long as Blue is fine.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale vs. Token decks.
Continuous effect, kills token decks flat-out and makes it nearly impossible for any creature-heavy deck to stand up effectively against against a control deck. Requires land destruction to get rid of, which white has trouble with and green only has limited amounts (and generally not very good ones).
Cursed Totem vs. Any Blue or Black deck dependent on it's General's ability, or those of it's creatures (Azami, Arcum, Geth, etc.)
Being only two mana, it's damn hard to always keep mana open to counter this thing, since unlike Legacy, you can't depend on 4 x Force of Will, 4 x Daze and 4 x Pact of Negation to keep you save. Once it's in play, it's almost impossible for those two colors to get rid of it. Even stealing it doesn't work, since the effect is global. Decks that just beat face wouldn't care less about it and you can put it in every deck at a measly cost. Similar arguments apply to Damping Matrix and to a lesser extend, Pithing Needle.
I've actually had games against Azami that went:
Turn 1: Land, Pithing Needle (Azami)
Azami scoops.
Terra Eternal vs. Land Destruction
Alright, I will admit that this card requires white to play and doesn't do much otherwise (which is why it doesn't see play). Still, it's probably one of the strongest hosers I've ever seen against an archetype. Enchantment destruction is pretty much impossible for Red and it would nullify the vast majority of the cards in the deck. Not a big deal, though, as few people play land destruction in EDH (tried it once, haven't done it again since half the store rage-quitted on me).
Strip Mine (and friends) vs. Tolarian Academy based infinite mana combo decks.
Oh, wait... that didn't hose it enough, which is why they had to ban the Academy.
Mistveil Plains or Any Eldrazi Legend vs. Mill decks
This one is probably my best example. The Eldrazi don't even need to be played. Merely having them in your deck is already enough to make you mill-death proof, forcing the mill player to field a couple of cards that otherwise aren't very good to deal with them. Not to mention that the Eldrazi are good finishers in any deck, so it's hardly a waste to put them in there.
Mistveil plains, admittedly, can only be played in white. Still, especially considering that UB can't deal with Enchantments, getting two white permanents to stick should be pretty easy. And once it's online, you can't die from milling anymore and if you actually get milled out, you get a free tutor every turn to boot.
Back to Basics or Ruination vs. Any Multicolored deck.
I don't think this one requires elaboration. Any mono-blue deck can just drop the former and cut off between 50% and 100% of their opponent's mana base. And once again, it's pretty cheap and three out of five colors cannot deal with enchantments. The latter is basically a no-brainer in any mono-red deck and basically equals GG is resolved against any multi-colored deck.
Cool, if thats your "point" then sure you're correct that no other land has that ability, but your point is moot.
WotC has been designing cards that set a precedent all the time. This is just part of the ever evolving game. One day down the road, you'll see another card that can make life ruff for a archetype, it's the nature of the game.
My archetype: Mono-Red LD
Your card: Sacred Ground.
Can I counter it? no.
Is it free? essentially, yes. Its close enough to being free that its completely irrelevant.
Is it reusable? Yes. It's always on.
Is there a drawback? No worse a drawback than using your landdrop to play a card that doesn't make your colors.
Can you link to a rule/ruling on this?
I think the enchantment should win out since it is a continuous effect and not a one time ability. However, I am shaky on this.
I was not saying wrath effects are exactly like this land (duh). my point was that all decks have unfair things happen to them. it's up to those decks to adapt to it.
gy decks have gy hate.
creature decks have wrath effects.
combo decks have counters/disruption/discard.
and now there's an answer to steal decks.