Seriously... i came into this thread just KNOWING that there would be whiners. yep, there they are. every strategy has some answers... and this new and innovative card just answered your strategy. now the ball's in your court to adapt or change decks. that's up to you. this does not mean it's unfair or unbalanced in any way. this is the nature of magic... new cards. new answers. adapt. change. play on!
heck, i've been a green player at heart for years. do you know how many times i've raged because all of my awesome green creatures got wrathed away? (and all other forms of mass creature destruction) seems kinda unfair that one card can kill all 3-10 of my creatures doesn't it?
I don't really see a problem with this land in the same way I see the new red enchantment (Stranglehold).
To those who are complaining about the land and enchantment: Don't worry, be happy, adapt. Every deck needs to adapt to changes.
So when the blue player is agonizing over a land and/or enchantment that is harshing their mellow; they just merely need to think outside the box and figure out a way to combat such new threats.
I personally love this card as it makes my Godo deck have a way to not get shotgunned by my own general if taken.
Seriously... i came into this thread just KNOWING that there would be whiners. yep, there they are. every strategy has some answers... and this new and innovative card just answered your strategy. now the ball's in your court to adapt or change decks. that's up to you. this does not mean it's unfair or unbalanced in any way. this is the nature of magic... new cards. new answers. adapt. change. play on!
heck, i've been a green player at heart for years. do you know how many times i've raged because all of my awesome green creatures got wrathed away? (and all other forms of mass creature destruction) seems kinda unfair that one card can kill all 3-10 of my creatures doesn't it?
It's not a wrath, its a permanent insurrection on a LAND. FOR 0.
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It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for the winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came and the grasshopper died and the octopus ate all his acorns. And also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?
It's not a wrath, its a permanent insurrection on a LAND. FOR 0.
insurrection? exaggerate much? you're playing no creatures that stay on your side of the board? i mean honestly... just because it was a niche archetype that had no solid answers before, didn't mean they were never going to print a singular answer to it. this one card won't kill your deck, it'll just give other decks an answer to it.
think about how many decks use graveyard shennanigans... and STILL DO in the face of a ton of amazing graveyard hate cards. you'll be fine. maybe it's time to play pithing needle and phyrexian revoker in your deck.
You sir need to learn to read. I have stated a lot of times in this thread I barely play any theft. I play Hermit Druid much more degenerate. The arguement is that they made one card to hose one archtype which plently of people already built those type of decks. Of course, people are going to be upset about it. They have to retool their entire deck because of one card. It's not that they failed. High tide was dominating legacy, but since they printed Mental Misstep the deck is nowhere to be seen. I guess everyone that played High Tide sucks at deck building too. This card does not effect my deck or my fun at all. I have no biased towards this card, I am just stating clear facts about the inbalancing of this card towards a certain format.
On a side note, blue's disruption is counters and bounce (The land). Not
LD.
Sorry, I didn't mean you directly, but my point stands. If "someones" blue-steal deck didn't account for some disruption against their strategy then they failed at building their deck. If they have to RETOOL their deck because of 1 card they failed at building their deck. Legacy is totally different ballpark then EDH, you can't compare.
How so? It's an almost uncounterable effect, and immediately activatable. If it was cipt, or required any sort of work to use... a drawback, anything. But your opponent can just top deck it and play it without you getting any chance to do anything about it. Sure you can wrath the board away afterwards, but it's really annoying in so many ways.
I'm not going to sit here and teach you how to build a deck or play properly, but a good start is reading bLatch's post. Don't overextend. It's simple. If the second this land comes into play and it blows out you're whole deck, you did a bad job at building it or you're playing badly.
You guys can get butthurt all you want. The fact is, good players will play around it and bad players will be complain on MTGS boards.
My Jhoira deck is basically built around stealing other people's stuff, and I would say with certainty that this card totally hoses it. That said, the easy counter to Homeward Path is just to play more nonbasic land destruction.
I'm actually glad that there is some sort of hoser to the steal-other-people's stuff strategy, as it is without a doubt one of the most powerful in EDH.
The only thing I worry about is how much $$ this land will end up being. The thing with printing such an efficient hoser is that as more cards are printed in the game that take people's creatures, the card will become more useful. I suppose that if the card took off in legacy play, wizards could always just reprint it...in some other precon or in standard.
An open challenge to the people that think is card is fair vs. the theft archtype.
You name me one card that meets these standards and I will apologize to you and say you are the greatest and that I am a whinning biatch.
1) This card "hinders" an archtype (pick anyone for your example)
2) This card does not use the stack. So it can't be countered.
3) Is does not have any kind of drawback. (mana costs as well)
4) It's effect is reusable. (The effect is on the stack, but how many stifles you got?)
5) The archtype that you say that it "hinders" can't have many answers to it.
Edit: I have changed a few words for some people. Good luck...
I don't see any problem with this card. As has been pointed out many times, there are answers to it (Pithing Needle, Strip Mine) and it's just against one strategy. Most aggro decks in White, Green or Red have lots of trouble recovering against continuous Wrath effects, which every deck runs tons of. I don't know how much Graveyard hate has been printed over the years and yet no one seems to complain that those are unfair.
Same thing happens all the time. People play a strategy that allows them to lord over other players. It gets nerfed. People feel sense of entitlement that their pet strategy should always be allowed to lord over others. I can still remember the endless whining during that one, short season where blue control wasn't dominating (the Jund era) and that every second post came down to: "Waaah, Wizards hates blue and smart play and intelligence in general and everything I stand for."
As a closing comment, I would like to remind everyone that Bujoka Bog was printed and yet, graveyard based recursion strategies still seem to work remarkably well (BG reanimator still does very degenerate things at my LGS). No strategy should be allowed to dominate uncontested (in fact, I've heard a lot of people complain that Bribery and Memnarch strategies are too powerful and almost impossible to contest short of destroying your own stuff). The archetype will survive.
As a closing comment, I would like to remind everyone that Bujoka Bog was printed and yet, graveyard based recursion strategies still seem to work remarkably well (BG reanimator still does very degenerate things at my LGS). No strategy should be allowed to dominate uncontested (in fact, I've heard a lot of people complain that Bribery and Memnarch strategies are too powerful and almost impossible to contest short of destroying your own stuff). The archetype will survive.
I love Bujoka Bog, however, it only goes into black decks. I understand graveyard hate is everywhere. But you can only use this card in black decks, use it once, and comes into tapped. Nothing like Homeward Path. Play with a Bujoka Bog that says "Tap: Remove all graveyards from the game" and see how many reanimator decks are left.
Sorry, I didn't mean you directly, but my point stands. If "someones" blue-steal deck didn't account for some disruption against their strategy then they failed at building their deck. If they have to RETOOL their deck because of 1 card they failed at building their deck. Legacy is totally different ballpark then EDH, you can't compare.
I'm not going to sit here and teach you how to build a deck or play properly, but a good start is reading bLatch's post. Don't overextend. It's simple. If the second this land comes into play and it blows out you're whole deck, you did a bad job at building it or you're playing badly.
You guys can get butthurt all you want. The fact is, good players will play around it and bad players will be complain on MTGS boards.
Not everybody plays competitive EDH. If you have a casual deck, and your opponent's casual deck can just play a colorless land and steal a couple of creatures that you reanimated, it's just irritating :-/. Its an answer that doesn't take any investment, for a huge possible payoff in pretty much any deck. It isn't the end of the world, I just think it's too much. It could end up being a non-issue in the long run, but, tell me if I'm wrong, a strong ability on a colorless land that can actively effect something that your opponent had done turns ago is extremely powerful, especially with virtually no drawback.
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It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for the winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came and the grasshopper died and the octopus ate all his acorns. And also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?
An open challenge to the people that think is card is fair vs. the theft archtype.
You name me one card that meets these standards and I will apologize to you and say you are the greatest and that I am a whinning biatch.
1) This card kills an archtype (pick anyone for your example)
2) This card does not use the stack. So it can't be countered.
3) Is does not have any kind of drawback. (mana costs as well)
4) It's effect is reusable.
5) The archtype that you say that it hoses can't have many answers to it.
1) It doesn't as proved already in this thread through the 7 (viable) answers blue has access too.
2) O NOES, maybe drop one of your 34 counterspells and include a answer (deck building skillz ?)
3) So it's a good card ? Lots of good cards don't have drawbacks. That's what makes it.... good.
4) see 3
5) see 1
An open challenge to the people that think is card is fair vs. the theft archtype.
You name me one card that meets these standards and I will apologize to you and say you are the greatest and that I am a whinning biatch.
1) This card kills an archtype (pick anyone for your example)
2) This card does not use the stack. So it can't be countered.
3) Is does not have any kind of drawback. (mana costs as well)
4) It's effect is reusable.
5) The archtype that you say that it hoses can't have many answers to it.
So, if I read this correctly, what you are saying is: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAH my pet deck taht was stronger than it should have been because there had never been a hoser printed for it before suddenly had a hoser printed for it and is now not *as good* but still good. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
I love Bujoka Bog, however, it only goes into black decks. I understand graveyard hate is everywhere. But you can only use this card in black decks, use it once, and comes into tapped. Nothing like Homeward Path. Play with a Bujoka Bog that says "Tap: Remove all graveyards from the game" and see how many reanimator decks are left.
uhhh... i see bojuka bog in tons of decks. it doesn't just go into black decks. because producing a black mana is worse than producing a colorless mana? makes no sense.
1) It doesn't as proved already in this thread through the 7 (viable) answers blue has access too.
2) O NOES, maybe drop one of your 34 counterspells and include a answer (deck building skillz ?)
3) So it's a good card ? Lots of good cards don't have drawbacks. That's what makes it.... good.
4) see 3
5) see 1
Its not a card, it's a land. I think you're missing that fact. The drawback on cards is, you know, you pay mana for them? I'm not saying it destroys the strategy entirely, it's just too good an answer for too minimal an investment (as in no investment).
uhhh... i see bojuka bog in tons of decks. it doesn't just go into black decks. because producing a black mana is worse than producing a colorless mana? makes no sense.
Not in EDH/Commander. Can't play it in non-black decks.
It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for the winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came and the grasshopper died and the octopus ate all his acorns. And also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?
1) It doesn't as proved already in this thread through the 7 (viable) answers blue has access too.
2) O NOES, maybe drop one of your 34 counterspells and include a answer (deck building skillz ?)
3) So it's a good card ? Lots of good cards don't have drawbacks. That's what makes it.... good.
4) see 3
5) see 1
There's still no card that compares to this one. Your just trying to insult my deck building skills of a none existant deck that I have, so you don't have to answer this question. We already stated the 4 colorless LD lands, and a few cards to steal the land or bounce it. There are a few answers, not many.
uhhh... i see bojuka bog in tons of decks. it doesn't just go into black decks. because producing a black mana is worse than producing a colorless mana? makes no sense.
I'm not 100% sure on this, by I'm pretty sure if your general is not black you can't play this card.
An open challenge to the people that think is card is fair vs. the theft archtype.
You name me one card that meets these standards and I will apologize to you and say you are the greatest and that I am a whinning biatch.
1) This card kills an archtype (pick anyone for your example)
2) This card does not use the stack. So it can't be countered.
3) Is does not have any kind of drawback. (mana costs as well)
4) It's effect is reusable.
5) The archtype that you say that it hoses can't have many answers to it.
I think saying this card does those things is inaccurate.
1) Kills implies that the archetype is dead, or unplayable, which is certainly not the case.
2) The ability uses the stack, which IS stoppable.
3) It costs the mana you didn't get from the land you had to play to have access to it.
4) Half the effects in the game are reusable.
5) How many answers do you want? Blue is the only color that CAN reliably stifle it, bounce it or keep it from untapping. Any color can run artifacts (just run Tsabos Web) or the half dozen lands that answer it (which are all staples anyway.)
And even if it did those things, limiting other hate cards to the exact same parameters isn't exactly fair, since different strategies have different resources.
Maybe it's just the fact that I play a Karn Deck, and 'hosers' for my archetype have been a staple in every block ever printed.
An open challenge to the people that think is card is fair vs. the theft archtype.
You name me one card that meets these standards and I will apologize to you and say you are the greatest and that I am a whinning biatch.
1) This card kills an archtype (pick anyone for your example)
2) This card does not use the stack. So it can't be countered.
3) Is does not have any kind of drawback. (mana costs as well)
4) It's effect is reusable.
5) The archtype that you say that it hoses can't have many answers to it.
I can get pretty close with Leyline of the Void against mono-black graveyard shenanigans. Very hard for black to deal with enchantments. It only fails 2), but countering isn't something black does anyway, and when it's out at the start of the game . . .
EDIT: reading the rules, it looks like if you start with it in play at the beginning it can't be countered anyway.
An open challenge to the people that think is card is fair vs. the theft archtype.
You name me one card that meets these standards and I will apologize to you and say you are the greatest and that I am a whinning biatch.
1) This card kills an archtype (pick anyone for your example)
2) This card does not use the stack. So it can't be countered.
3) Is does not have any kind of drawback. (mana costs as well)
4) It's effect is reusable.
5) The archtype that you say that it hoses can't have many answers to it.
1. wrath of god, any wrath effect, insurrection, reusable creature destruction, etc (vs my mono green creatures deck)
2. mono green has no counters
3. wrath does not have a drawback when playing against a monogreen deck
4. while technically not reusable you can play tons of wrath variants or cards that bring the wraths back to hand.
5. i can play caller of the claw or fresh meat... what else. hmmmm. nope not many answers to it.
I can get pretty close with Leyline of the Void against mono-black graveyard shenanigans. Very hard for black to deal with enchantments. It only fails 2), but countering isn't something black does anyway, and when it's out at the start of the game . . .
EDIT: reading the rules, it looks like if you start with it in play at the beginning it can't be countered anyway.
I think everyone is missing the fact it's on a land that can simply be played and tap for colorless. Leyline has a HUGE drawback in that it does absolutely nothing when noone is playing graveyard shenanigans, has to be in your opening hand to be for free, and puts you behind a card. Path doesn't have any of these drawbacks.
It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for the winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came and the grasshopper died and the octopus ate all his acorns. And also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?
I have reworded it to make some of you happy. Leyline of the Void is good, but you have to start with it to be uncounterable. 7 out of 99 is not such good odds, thus it's drawback. This you can just draw and play the land. There's not a single person that has listed a card that meets them all. Homeward Path meets all those standards, so if you think those standards unfair... hmmm
Wrath Effects vs. Mono Green?
Your talking about a one hit wonder. Sure you have many varients but that's multiple cards. This is one card.
Edit: Against mono black they would just "steal" out of your graveyard, but I guess this when Homeward Path comes in -.-
The standards are unfair because they are specifically designed to eliminate hoser cards that are FAR more devastating to other archetypes. The card is not unfair.
The card is good, but lands are just as killable as any other permanent (cept creatures, but hey..). Strip mine, acidic slime, vindicate, beast within, tec edge, spreading seas, blood moon, etc etc. Yes it's a hoser card against a few strategies, but it's also an effect that hasn't been shown before. Insurrection, once resolved, is very difficult to do anything against. It's no longer an "I win" card for free if this land is on the table but if the Insurrection player has a sac outlet, they can wipe your creatures anyways.
I don't understand why people are going to hate on this card so much, there are answers to permanents. It's not as if it has shroud/indestructible.
I think everyone is missing the fact it's on a land that can simply be played and tap for colorless. Leyline has a HUGE drawback in that it does absolutely nothing when noone is playing graveyard shenanigans, has to be in your opening hand to be for free, and puts you behind a card. Path doesn't have any of these drawbacks.
Okay. Cool. Agreed that this card has a different utility. BUT THAT'S CHANGING THE ARGUMENT. If you want to make the argument that it's better than Leyline, fine.
We're also forgetting the fact that this stealing archetype was so powerful because there wasn't anything that could hose it. And now we have it and it feels strange because it used to be so powerful.
So it goes. That doesn't mean I think you are whining too much. I'd prefer if you would, however, admit that every deck has huge problems against SOMETHING. And now so does the stealing archetype. And many people here have admitted that and are saying "I wish it wasn't so, but it is."
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heck, i've been a green player at heart for years. do you know how many times i've raged because all of my awesome green creatures got wrathed away? (and all other forms of mass creature destruction) seems kinda unfair that one card can kill all 3-10 of my creatures doesn't it?
To those who are complaining about the land and enchantment: Don't worry, be happy, adapt. Every deck needs to adapt to changes.
So when the blue player is agonizing over a land and/or enchantment that is harshing their mellow; they just merely need to think outside the box and figure out a way to combat such new threats.
I personally love this card as it makes my Godo deck have a way to not get shotgunned by my own general if taken.
GWB Junk Stax Ghave BWG
It's not a wrath, its a permanent insurrection on a LAND. FOR 0.
insurrection? exaggerate much? you're playing no creatures that stay on your side of the board? i mean honestly... just because it was a niche archetype that had no solid answers before, didn't mean they were never going to print a singular answer to it. this one card won't kill your deck, it'll just give other decks an answer to it.
think about how many decks use graveyard shennanigans... and STILL DO in the face of a ton of amazing graveyard hate cards. you'll be fine. maybe it's time to play pithing needle and phyrexian revoker in your deck.
Sorry, I didn't mean you directly, but my point stands. If "someones" blue-steal deck didn't account for some disruption against their strategy then they failed at building their deck. If they have to RETOOL their deck because of 1 card they failed at building their deck. Legacy is totally different ballpark then EDH, you can't compare.
I'm not going to sit here and teach you how to build a deck or play properly, but a good start is reading bLatch's post. Don't overextend. It's simple. If the second this land comes into play and it blows out you're whole deck, you did a bad job at building it or you're playing badly.
You guys can get butthurt all you want. The fact is, good players will play around it and bad players will be complain on MTGS boards.
I'm actually glad that there is some sort of hoser to the steal-other-people's stuff strategy, as it is without a doubt one of the most powerful in EDH.
The only thing I worry about is how much $$ this land will end up being. The thing with printing such an efficient hoser is that as more cards are printed in the game that take people's creatures, the card will become more useful. I suppose that if the card took off in legacy play, wizards could always just reprint it...in some other precon or in standard.
You name me one card that meets these standards and I will apologize to you and say you are the greatest and that I am a whinning biatch.
1) This card "hinders" an archtype (pick anyone for your example)
2) This card does not use the stack. So it can't be countered.
3) Is does not have any kind of drawback. (mana costs as well)
4) It's effect is reusable. (The effect is on the stack, but how many stifles you got?)
5) The archtype that you say that it "hinders" can't have many answers to it.
Edit: I have changed a few words for some people. Good luck...
Same thing happens all the time. People play a strategy that allows them to lord over other players. It gets nerfed. People feel sense of entitlement that their pet strategy should always be allowed to lord over others. I can still remember the endless whining during that one, short season where blue control wasn't dominating (the Jund era) and that every second post came down to: "Waaah, Wizards hates blue and smart play and intelligence in general and everything I stand for."
As a closing comment, I would like to remind everyone that Bujoka Bog was printed and yet, graveyard based recursion strategies still seem to work remarkably well (BG reanimator still does very degenerate things at my LGS). No strategy should be allowed to dominate uncontested (in fact, I've heard a lot of people complain that Bribery and Memnarch strategies are too powerful and almost impossible to contest short of destroying your own stuff). The archetype will survive.
I love Bujoka Bog, however, it only goes into black decks. I understand graveyard hate is everywhere. But you can only use this card in black decks, use it once, and comes into tapped. Nothing like Homeward Path. Play with a Bujoka Bog that says "Tap: Remove all graveyards from the game" and see how many reanimator decks are left.
Not everybody plays competitive EDH. If you have a casual deck, and your opponent's casual deck can just play a colorless land and steal a couple of creatures that you reanimated, it's just irritating :-/. Its an answer that doesn't take any investment, for a huge possible payoff in pretty much any deck. It isn't the end of the world, I just think it's too much. It could end up being a non-issue in the long run, but, tell me if I'm wrong, a strong ability on a colorless land that can actively effect something that your opponent had done turns ago is extremely powerful, especially with virtually no drawback.
1) It doesn't as proved already in this thread through the 7 (viable) answers blue has access too.
2) O NOES, maybe drop one of your 34 counterspells and include a answer (deck building skillz ?)
3) So it's a good card ? Lots of good cards don't have drawbacks. That's what makes it.... good.
4) see 3
5) see 1
So, if I read this correctly, what you are saying is: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAH my pet deck taht was stronger than it should have been because there had never been a hoser printed for it before suddenly had a hoser printed for it and is now not *as good* but still good. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
Infraction for flaming.
uhhh... i see bojuka bog in tons of decks. it doesn't just go into black decks. because producing a black mana is worse than producing a colorless mana? makes no sense.
Its not a card, it's a land. I think you're missing that fact. The drawback on cards is, you know, you pay mana for them? I'm not saying it destroys the strategy entirely, it's just too good an answer for too minimal an investment (as in no investment).
Not in EDH/Commander. Can't play it in non-black decks.
There's still no card that compares to this one. Your just trying to insult my deck building skills of a none existant deck that I have, so you don't have to answer this question. We already stated the 4 colorless LD lands, and a few cards to steal the land or bounce it. There are a few answers, not many.
I'm not 100% sure on this, by I'm pretty sure if your general is not black you can't play this card.
I think saying this card does those things is inaccurate.
1) Kills implies that the archetype is dead, or unplayable, which is certainly not the case.
2) The ability uses the stack, which IS stoppable.
3) It costs the mana you didn't get from the land you had to play to have access to it.
4) Half the effects in the game are reusable.
5) How many answers do you want? Blue is the only color that CAN reliably stifle it, bounce it or keep it from untapping. Any color can run artifacts (just run Tsabos Web) or the half dozen lands that answer it (which are all staples anyway.)
And even if it did those things, limiting other hate cards to the exact same parameters isn't exactly fair, since different strategies have different resources.
Maybe it's just the fact that I play a Karn Deck, and 'hosers' for my archetype have been a staple in every block ever printed.
I can get pretty close with Leyline of the Void against mono-black graveyard shenanigans. Very hard for black to deal with enchantments. It only fails 2), but countering isn't something black does anyway, and when it's out at the start of the game . . .
EDIT: reading the rules, it looks like if you start with it in play at the beginning it can't be countered anyway.
1. wrath of god, any wrath effect, insurrection, reusable creature destruction, etc (vs my mono green creatures deck)
2. mono green has no counters
3. wrath does not have a drawback when playing against a monogreen deck
4. while technically not reusable you can play tons of wrath variants or cards that bring the wraths back to hand.
5. i can play caller of the claw or fresh meat... what else. hmmmm. nope not many answers to it.
I think everyone is missing the fact it's on a land that can simply be played and tap for colorless. Leyline has a HUGE drawback in that it does absolutely nothing when noone is playing graveyard shenanigans, has to be in your opening hand to be for free, and puts you behind a card. Path doesn't have any of these drawbacks.
Costs a card. If it cost 0 and tapped for 1, and took the place of a land drop, then maybe.
Wrath Effects vs. Mono Green?
Your talking about a one hit wonder. Sure you have many varients but that's multiple cards. This is one card.
Edit: Against mono black they would just "steal" out of your graveyard, but I guess this when Homeward Path comes in -.-
No, I don't think anyone is missing the fact that it is on one of the most hated out card types in EDH.... Ghostquarter stripmine wasteland tectonic edge pithing needle not being an idiot
Well ok, that last one isn't a card... but it is a really easy way to have your theft deck still work!
Also, pooky, you konw "lands" are also "cards". If you mean spell, then say spell.
The standards are unfair because they are specifically designed to eliminate hoser cards that are FAR more devastating to other archetypes. The card is not unfair.
I don't understand why people are going to hate on this card so much, there are answers to permanents. It's not as if it has shroud/indestructible.
Okay. Cool. Agreed that this card has a different utility. BUT THAT'S CHANGING THE ARGUMENT. If you want to make the argument that it's better than Leyline, fine.
We're also forgetting the fact that this stealing archetype was so powerful because there wasn't anything that could hose it. And now we have it and it feels strange because it used to be so powerful.
So it goes. That doesn't mean I think you are whining too much. I'd prefer if you would, however, admit that every deck has huge problems against SOMETHING. And now so does the stealing archetype. And many people here have admitted that and are saying "I wish it wasn't so, but it is."