I would have liked it to only hit "target creature" or "Legendary" creatures or to cost mana or come into play tapped so there are more ways to deal with it.
I cannot believe what I am reading regarding the hate on this card. So for those of you complaining about this land, this must be your first time playing commander. I say this because with ALL the "Utitity" lands available: maze of ith, acadamy ruins, Boseiju, Who Shelters all, Volrath's Stronghold and so on and so forth.....you SHOULD have dedicated slots in your deck to deal with these.
Merieke Ri Berit doesn't care about Maze of Ith, Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold, or a large number of other lands. For most of them, the worst-case scenario is "they tap down one of 'my' fatties" or "they get something else out with those lands that I can steal". Other control strategies also get away with not caring overmuch about opponents' lands (see: Teysa, Orzhov Scion) because they so thoroughly deal with what those lands do in other ways.
In other words, packing more land destruction is very much a necessity for these decks now, but it wasn't before. This could have adverse effects on deck consistency and makes the entire strategy much shakier.
So... does anyone else feel like this is just a huge middle finger to blue...
Nope, not at all. In fact I think this was needed as I see far more issues at the table with Bribery and the like than I ever do with Sol Ring or other cards people whine about in the format. Heck I've taken creates OUT of my deck because they were such good Bribery targets. That's not fun! Besides, it's not like you can't run some responses to this thing in your deck. It's not like it's hard to kill lands.
I feel the same way about this card, as I did when Wizards banned Mystical Tutor from Legacy... This card is just hoses blue thief decks, however, it's only one card. So if you kill it, it becomes a stall. If they topdeck it, and you just Briberied an Eldrazi Titan it's just a blowout. So if they draw this one card they can ethier stall you a few turns or standbag it to blow you out when you steal something huge. Even if you run strip mine, wasteland, dustbowl, and ghost quarter it's still only 4 cards out of your deck to deal with one. That's if you didn't use them to kill other lands. I think there should have been an additional cost to the second ability. Even 1Tap or 2Tap would seem ok or even better Tap & Sac. There's just no draw back to hosing an entire archtype.
Allright for EDH but WotC clearly didn't think on this one.
In Germany "regular" Highlander is quite popular as a format and this land will hurt control decks big time.
It doesn't even have a real drawback like not producing mana or legendary creatures only.
So far I've liked what WotC did, because most new cards are EDH only really.
But this card just flat out pisses me off.
There's just no draw back to hosing an entire archtype.
Pretty much every other archetype has hosers, why should 'blue steal' be any different?
I play a Kresh/Living Death deck most of the time, but I don't go around complaning whenever someone drops a Scrabbling Claws or Tormod's Crypt or Bojuka Bog or any of the other 37 ways to totally nuke a graveyard; I just go and find another way to win. If your deck can't go and find another way to win, it probably didn't deserve to have the first way to win.
I, for one, am glad that Insurrection is no longer an auto-win. And I usually play red!
Nope, not at all. In fact I think this was needed as I see far more issues at the table with Bribery and the like than I ever do with Sol Ring or other cards people whine about in the format. Heck I've taken creates OUT of my deck because they were such good Bribery targets. That's not fun! Besides, it's not like you can't run some responses to this thing in your deck. It's not like it's hard to kill lands.
Too true. I have a green deck with a lot of mana ramp and cards like Tooth and Nail, so Darksteel Colossus was a natural fit. But after just a few weeks I had to take DSC out because it was showing up way more often on an opponent's side thanks to Bribery and Acquire. And over time thanks to Blatant Thievery and other theft, I have been forced to take out other simple big fat like Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer in favor of cards that require lots of green mana like Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Silvos, Rogue Elemental because they are less advantageous to steal. An opponent will steal it mostly so that I can't use it and not because they can use it fully themselves. I did even try Brooding Saurian for a while, but it just isn't enough on its own and would half the time would die before it triggered.
Pretty much every other archetype has hosers, why should 'blue steal' be any different?
I play a Kresh/Living Death deck most of the time, but I don't go around complaning whenever someone drops a Scrabbling Claws or Tormod's Crypt or Bojuka Bog or any of the other 37 ways to totally nuke a graveyard; I just go and find another way to win. If your deck can't go and find another way to win, it probably didn't deserve to have the first way to win.
I, for one, am glad that Insurrection is no longer an auto-win. And I usually play red!
Well most "hosers" are one time use and require a cost. This doesn't and you can use it over and over again. I felt they pretty much kicked blue in the balls with these pre-cons. No more stealing, no more tutoring, and no more extra turns... IMO blue was the strongest color in EDH, but I don't think it needed this much hate. I'm sure blue can bounce the land and the enchantment but it's just stalls making the blue decks even slower and games already last long enough playing blue control type decks.
Edit: I'm sure this land will be in almost every EDH deck and I'm sure every red deck will have the enchantment. And I'm even more sure there's not a lot of decks with Omen Machine. You can't compare staple hosers to a niche card.
Yeah, but all those are counterable or gripable or sth.
Bojuka Bock at least comes into play tapped AND is for black EDHs only.
Two pretty big drawbacks.
This land is jut absurd in it's entirety.
€: And yeah, you can use it every turn and even multiple times with untappers.
Don't like this one at all. I don't play a control magic-style deck, but a repeatable answer to control magic that goes in any deck seems way too crushing to that sort of strategy. The best option is to pack land destruction, and while I might enjoy LD, not everyone does.:-/
Unlike Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus, this thing is repeatable and doesn't waste a slot. There's no reason not to run this in a deck with sufficient land space.
I think the only way to make this fun would be to add a mana activation similar to that of Mystifying Maze. That way, it could still respond to Insurrection or Threaten, but you have to commit. Or maybe it could just be "until end of turn."
Nope, not at all. In fact I think this was needed as I see far more issues at the table with Bribery and the like than I ever do with Sol Ring or other cards people whine about in the format. Heck I've taken creates OUT of my deck because they were such good Bribery targets. That's not fun! Besides, it's not like you can't run some responses to this thing in your deck. It's not like it's hard to kill lands.
Bribery already has the answer that you mentioned: Don't be greedy in deck building.
I find Bribery plenty of fun, and I don't even play it. Seeing a guy decide which creature to whack an opposing player with is always fun.
Yeah, but all those are counterable or gripable or sth.
Bojuka Bock at least comes into play tapped AND is for black EDHs only.
Two pretty big drawbacks.
This land is jut absurd in it's entirety.
€: And yeah, you can use it every turn and even multiple times with untappers.
I'm just sooooo mad right now.
I totally agree with you here. I understand that there should be some answers for blue theft. But most all graveyard hate has its own downsides. Some can only be used in certain colors, a lot of the good ones hit your own yard as well, the ones that dont only target one player. Regardless most of them are a single shot effect and can be countered, stifled, or Krosan Griped off.
This land is reusable every turn, it can be used in every color, it doesnt come in tapped, and it still taps for mana.
I would be fine with this land if it had to sacrifice to use it, only did it when it came into play, possibly if it came into play tapped or actually tapped for a specific color.
The fact that there is like no downside to this land is what I have the biggest issue with. While people try to justify it by saying that it can be stripped... it will be too late already. If it came into play tapped it would be more viable to strip. Plus its not like blue has the easiest time tutoring for a damn strip land. Plus then you have to wonder if everyone in your playgroup might have a copy.... this is lame.
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Bribery already has the answer that you mentioned: Don't be greedy in deck building.
Given the choice between 'pack a specific land' or 'don't play awesome creatures', I think I know which one is healthier for the format.
Besides, blue was already way too good compared to, say, red (I'd even argue black and white), in Commander. If anything, I'd worry more about this card strengthening green than weakening blue.
The ironic thing is that this considerably weakens what was red's ONE reliable win condition. Blue already had a ton of ways to win. Red didn't have much outside of Insurrection.
Given the choice between 'pack a specific land' or 'don't play awesome creatures', I think I know which one is healthier for the format.
Agreed. I can't believe how many creatures I've cut in EDH deck building because of creature theft. Sure I could just run more removal or counterspells... but then I'm cutting creatures for more countermagic? Bleah.
This land is reusable every turn, it can be used in every color, it doesnt come in tapped, and it still taps for mana.
A friend of mine actually compared this to Library of Alexandria turn 1 against control.
Again I'm talking about the German Highlander 1on1 variant.
It just hoses you that hard for virtually no cost.
I just hope that this will be banned in Highlander as soon as it's legal ;(
I'm new to the Commander format, so may be way off base, but aside from flat out land destruction, won't cards that loot the opposing library, ala' Jester's Cap or Rootwater Thief be considered?
Unless these are unplayed in Commander (I have not yet looked at the B/R list, so they may be there), wouldn't cards of this nature provide a preemptive solution?
Cheers!
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Well most "hosers" are one time use and require a cost. This doesn't and you can use it over and over again. I felt they pretty much kicked blue in the balls with these pre-cons. No more stealing, no more tutoring, and no more extra turns... IMO blue was the strongest color in EDH, but I don't think it needed this much hate. I'm sure blue can bounce the land and the enchantment but it's just stalls making the blue decks even slower and games already last long enough playing blue control type decks.
Edit: I'm sure this land will be in almost every EDH deck and I'm sure every red deck will have the enchantment. And I'm even more sure there's not a lot of decks with Omen Machine. You can't compare staple hosers to a niche card.
So what you're saying is that blue is going to have to work harder to gain control over the board and do the things they want to do.
Good. It's called conflict. It's called the meaning of EDH (at least to me, YMMV). Let's face it--a blue deck that controls and takes over the whole board is a whole lot of fun . . . for exactly one player. At least now people have the belief that they can fight back. Really, they can't. Really, it isn't nearly enough to hose blue and blue is still more powerful than the rest.
Fine. Blue always has been and always will be, and that's why it appeals to Spike more than anything else. But in your complaining about hosing YOU GIVE THREE DIFFERENT WAYS TO DEFEAT THIS CARD. And most of those already occur in decks.
Finally: how are staple hosers different than niche cards?
So... wizards wants me to run targeted and mass LD along with my stealing themes? Got it.
This was such a crappy card to print, hoses an entire strategy and the only downside is it produces colorless.
Actually I think that is one of its advantages. That means that every EDH deck out there can use it. I would be fine if it was like a red deck only or something like that. I would welcome that change. Gah this land pisses me off. It should have had some downside somewhere. I am fine with a hoser for theft. But make it a sac to use land, or make it come in tapped so there is a chance to strip it, or make it only when it comes into play.
God this card still has me fuming.
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Jesus. Anyone complaining about this card doesn't know how to build decks, because if you're not running cards that say "destroy/exile target permanent" you're doing it wrong.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
No. This is completely precendented. It is one card that focuses on one aspect of some decks. See Chill. See Moat. See Boil. See Flashfire. See Pyroblast. See Blood moon. See Melira, Sylvok Outcast. All of those are actually worse for specific play styles. If a single card is messing up your entire deck then it's not build right. As a casual player, you would search for answers (some of which might be land destruction, but it might also be to Confiscate the land as well). Competitively, you should be running the land destruction anyway. But don't tell me that it's unprecendented to make a card that helps players do what they want to do while severely hurting a specific play style. That's called Magic.
Can Geth run Chill? Can Lin-Sivvi run Bloodmoon? Can Zur run Melira? The answer is no, they cannot. What they can run, though ,is this land.
Yes, I would agree that if your at a table with 4 people and 1 player is playing Bloodmoon, and it hurts you, you should be able to deal with it or lose.
However, if your at a table of 4 people, and 3 people are running this card, that's a completely different story, because it helps everyone but you, and everyone is running it, because they can.
This should have been sorcery only. Perfectly fine hoser to control effects that way. I dont like that it hoses cards like reins of power, ray of command, insurrection, etc.
Jesus. Anyone complaining about this card doesn't know how to build decks, because if you're not running cards that say "destroy/exile target permanent" you're doing it wrong.
Agreed. In addition, a question:
to those of you who play "steal" techniques, what other win conditions do you have for your deck other than stealing other people's stuff? Are those win conditions less viable now as well?
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I would have liked it to only hit "target creature" or "Legendary" creatures or to cost mana or come into play tapped so there are more ways to deal with it.
Merieke Ri Berit doesn't care about Maze of Ith, Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold, or a large number of other lands. For most of them, the worst-case scenario is "they tap down one of 'my' fatties" or "they get something else out with those lands that I can steal". Other control strategies also get away with not caring overmuch about opponents' lands (see: Teysa, Orzhov Scion) because they so thoroughly deal with what those lands do in other ways.
In other words, packing more land destruction is very much a necessity for these decks now, but it wasn't before. This could have adverse effects on deck consistency and makes the entire strategy much shakier.
Nope, not at all. In fact I think this was needed as I see far more issues at the table with Bribery and the like than I ever do with Sol Ring or other cards people whine about in the format. Heck I've taken creates OUT of my deck because they were such good Bribery targets. That's not fun! Besides, it's not like you can't run some responses to this thing in your deck. It's not like it's hard to kill lands.
In Germany "regular" Highlander is quite popular as a format and this land will hurt control decks big time.
It doesn't even have a real drawback like not producing mana or legendary creatures only.
So far I've liked what WotC did, because most new cards are EDH only really.
But this card just flat out pisses me off.
Pretty much every other archetype has hosers, why should 'blue steal' be any different?
I play a Kresh/Living Death deck most of the time, but I don't go around complaning whenever someone drops a Scrabbling Claws or Tormod's Crypt or Bojuka Bog or any of the other 37 ways to totally nuke a graveyard; I just go and find another way to win. If your deck can't go and find another way to win, it probably didn't deserve to have the first way to win.
I, for one, am glad that Insurrection is no longer an auto-win. And I usually play red!
Too true. I have a green deck with a lot of mana ramp and cards like Tooth and Nail, so Darksteel Colossus was a natural fit. But after just a few weeks I had to take DSC out because it was showing up way more often on an opponent's side thanks to Bribery and Acquire. And over time thanks to Blatant Thievery and other theft, I have been forced to take out other simple big fat like Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer in favor of cards that require lots of green mana like Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and Silvos, Rogue Elemental because they are less advantageous to steal. An opponent will steal it mostly so that I can't use it and not because they can use it fully themselves. I did even try Brooding Saurian for a while, but it just isn't enough on its own and would half the time would die before it triggered.
Well most "hosers" are one time use and require a cost. This doesn't and you can use it over and over again. I felt they pretty much kicked blue in the balls with these pre-cons. No more stealing, no more tutoring, and no more extra turns... IMO blue was the strongest color in EDH, but I don't think it needed this much hate. I'm sure blue can bounce the land and the enchantment but it's just stalls making the blue decks even slower and games already last long enough playing blue control type decks.
Edit: I'm sure this land will be in almost every EDH deck and I'm sure every red deck will have the enchantment. And I'm even more sure there's not a lot of decks with Omen Machine. You can't compare staple hosers to a niche card.
It's ONE card. Against BLUE.
Besides, there are a lot of unfun tricks in EDH. Blue happens to have PLENTY more than just creature stealing.
Yeah, but all those are counterable or gripable or sth.
Bojuka Bock at least comes into play tapped AND is for black EDHs only.
Two pretty big drawbacks.
This land is jut absurd in it's entirety.
€: And yeah, you can use it every turn and even multiple times with untappers.
I'm just sooooo mad right now.
This. It's sweet, but it definitely should be sorcery speed.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
Unlike Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus, this thing is repeatable and doesn't waste a slot. There's no reason not to run this in a deck with sufficient land space.
I think the only way to make this fun would be to add a mana activation similar to that of Mystifying Maze. That way, it could still respond to Insurrection or Threaten, but you have to commit. Or maybe it could just be "until end of turn."
Bribery already has the answer that you mentioned: Don't be greedy in deck building.
I find Bribery plenty of fun, and I don't even play it. Seeing a guy decide which creature to whack an opposing player with is always fun.
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I totally agree with you here. I understand that there should be some answers for blue theft. But most all graveyard hate has its own downsides. Some can only be used in certain colors, a lot of the good ones hit your own yard as well, the ones that dont only target one player. Regardless most of them are a single shot effect and can be countered, stifled, or Krosan Griped off.
This land is reusable every turn, it can be used in every color, it doesnt come in tapped, and it still taps for mana.
I would be fine with this land if it had to sacrifice to use it, only did it when it came into play, possibly if it came into play tapped or actually tapped for a specific color.
The fact that there is like no downside to this land is what I have the biggest issue with. While people try to justify it by saying that it can be stripped... it will be too late already. If it came into play tapped it would be more viable to strip. Plus its not like blue has the easiest time tutoring for a damn strip land. Plus then you have to wonder if everyone in your playgroup might have a copy.... this is lame.
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Given the choice between 'pack a specific land' or 'don't play awesome creatures', I think I know which one is healthier for the format.
Besides, blue was already way too good compared to, say, red (I'd even argue black and white), in Commander. If anything, I'd worry more about this card strengthening green than weakening blue.
The ironic thing is that this considerably weakens what was red's ONE reliable win condition. Blue already had a ton of ways to win. Red didn't have much outside of Insurrection.
This was such a crappy card to print, hoses an entire strategy and the only downside is it produces colorless.
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Agreed. I can't believe how many creatures I've cut in EDH deck building because of creature theft. Sure I could just run more removal or counterspells... but then I'm cutting creatures for more countermagic? Bleah.
A friend of mine actually compared this to Library of Alexandria turn 1 against control.
Again I'm talking about the German Highlander 1on1 variant.
It just hoses you that hard for virtually no cost.
I just hope that this will be banned in Highlander as soon as it's legal ;(
Unless these are unplayed in Commander (I have not yet looked at the B/R list, so they may be there), wouldn't cards of this nature provide a preemptive solution?
Cheers!
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So what you're saying is that blue is going to have to work harder to gain control over the board and do the things they want to do.
Good. It's called conflict. It's called the meaning of EDH (at least to me, YMMV). Let's face it--a blue deck that controls and takes over the whole board is a whole lot of fun . . . for exactly one player. At least now people have the belief that they can fight back. Really, they can't. Really, it isn't nearly enough to hose blue and blue is still more powerful than the rest.
Fine. Blue always has been and always will be, and that's why it appeals to Spike more than anything else. But in your complaining about hosing YOU GIVE THREE DIFFERENT WAYS TO DEFEAT THIS CARD. And most of those already occur in decks.
Finally: how are staple hosers different than niche cards?
Actually I think that is one of its advantages. That means that every EDH deck out there can use it. I would be fine if it was like a red deck only or something like that. I would welcome that change. Gah this land pisses me off. It should have had some downside somewhere. I am fine with a hoser for theft. But make it a sac to use land, or make it come in tapped so there is a chance to strip it, or make it only when it comes into play.
God this card still has me fuming.
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The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Can Geth run Chill? Can Lin-Sivvi run Bloodmoon? Can Zur run Melira? The answer is no, they cannot. What they can run, though ,is this land.
Yes, I would agree that if your at a table with 4 people and 1 player is playing Bloodmoon, and it hurts you, you should be able to deal with it or lose.
However, if your at a table of 4 people, and 3 people are running this card, that's a completely different story, because it helps everyone but you, and everyone is running it, because they can.
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Agreed. In addition, a question:
to those of you who play "steal" techniques, what other win conditions do you have for your deck other than stealing other people's stuff? Are those win conditions less viable now as well?