I dont even think we are on the discussion of there are no answers for it anymore. Clearly there are answers for the damn thing. I think the current argument is that its too damn powerful as it has no drawbacks. The fact that it taps for colorless mana is a slight drawback when you start hitting those 3+ color decks but it also opens it up for every deck to run it...
I just wish it had a drawback. I think this land easily lands in the top 3 utility lands ever printed.
I think what you mean to say is: blue players *****ed about not having an answer. Then one was provided so they changed their argument to some other garbage. It happens all the time on this message board.
It's not broken. It does have answers. It doesn't go in EVERY deck. Yes it's good, but it's not going to warp the format. Powerful cards get printed all the time.. this one is no different and it's not going to stop.
Homeward Path is sometimes powerful. Those cards are mostly unprintable. It's not a close comparison.
How can you even argue that?!?! How can you argue that THOSE LANDS are not alright to pring because their effects cost mana, and then IN THE SAME BREATH argue that Homeward Path is fine?! Homeward Path casts and uncounterable Brand (or the effect from Brooding Saurian) FOR ZERO MANA! Not to mention Homeward Path is repeatable, unlike brand. Seriously, did you think about that for even a second?
And to Doodlebug, different people argue different things. The fact that this card is so easily playable, repeatable, and completely invalidates a strategy (as well as numerous random cards) is what really bothers me. The existance of answers was never in question for me.
The fact that it is extremely difficult to counter just adds to the problem. You need a Stifle effect and a Stripmine or Annex effect to stop it. Not only that, it is completely infeasable to expect a single player to be able to answer every single copy of this land in a multiplayer game.
To Secularon, no it's not broken, but it's not healthy for the format either.
Yes, it does go into every deck. I would even play this card in a deck who's theme is stealing things, because I don't have to activate it unless it's beneficial to me! The only way I would not play this card is if I were playing cutthroat competative EDH meta with Hermit Druid and Sharuum decks running rampant, where the game is over by turn 4.
So, we're moving the goalposts now? How convenient.
It started with: "Waahhhh, it completely hoses an archetype and I can't answer it!!1!"
Multitudes of answers were pointed out by several posters. Now the argument has conveniently changed. How cute.
Actually I believe my very first post on this topic was that it needed a drawback. I am still incredibly against this card because it doesnt come in tapped or sac to use.
I would actually be entirely for this card if it just had another drawback.
As for the people saying that it is 1 card in a 100 card format... clearly you dont play with enough people who tutor into a turn 4-5 primeval titan. Entire games are fought over Primeval Titan and considering he can now go with his first tutor and solve theft issues it really makes Primeval Titan just better...
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Glitch, you forgot the "tap, creatures do no damage this turn" land. Then you can tell all the guys who use creatures to to stop whining, that land won't come up that often, there are plenty of answers to it, building decks that win with creatures is uncreative and one-note, totally stupid anyway, get over it, etc., etc., etc.
ISBPathfinders is right; yes, there are answers to it, sure (after it's been used already, though). And agree, no one ever said that there weren't answers. The whole point of this thread was to discuss how this card is an overreaction to one type of strategy, and it's going to change the whole format in a very heavy-handed and (IMHO) poorly designed way.
For most decks it's a strictly better high market, and high market is already a land I believe should be in almost every deck.
For God's sake...
Can people please learn what strictly better means, please...
High Market has a dozen more uses than protecting against mind control effects. It could activate sac effects, activate a grave pact, throw a creature in the yard so it can be reanimated next turn, gain you a life in a pinch, etc.
How can you even argue that?!?! How can you argue that THOSE LANDS are not alright to pring because their effects cost mana, and then IN THE SAME BREATH argue that Homeward Path is fine?! Homeward Path casts and uncounterable Brand (or the effect from Brooding Saurian) FOR ZERO MANA! Not to mention Homeward Path is repeatable, unlike brand. Seriously, did you think about that for even a second?
And to Doodlebug, different people argue different things. The fact that this card is so easily playable, repeatable, and completely invalidates a strategy (as well as numerous random cards) is what really bothers me. The existance of answers was never in question for me.
The fact that it is extremely difficult to counter just adds to the problem. You need a Stifle effect and a Stripmine or Annex effect to stop it. Not only that, it is completely infeasable to expect a single player to be able to answer every single copy of this land in a multiplayer game.
To Secularon, no it's not broken, but it's not healthy for the format either.
If your argument is solely because its extremely easy to play and hard to counter, then how do you deal with other lands that are arguably better and more problematic.
EDIT: Are you kidding me ? You'd put this in every deck ? Please refer to my earlier post about deck building.
If your argument is solely because its extremely easy to play and hard to counter, then how do you deal with other lands that are arguably better and more problematic.
Did you even read my previous post? Being not just easy but completely free to play is only half my argument. Being hard to counter only makes it worse, but is not the primary content of my argument. The second half of my argument was that this is a repeatable hoser.
I will never be in support of free (in terms of deck slot, and mana cost), repeatable hosers of an entire strategy.
Glitch, you forgot the "tap, creatures do no damage this turn" land. Then you can tell all the guys who use creatures to to stop whining, that land won't come up that often, there are plenty of answers to it, building decks that win with creatures is uncreative and one-note, totally stupid anyway, get over it, etc., etc., etc.
FogLand would actually be fine, given that this is a multiplayer format (it'd be broken as hell in one-on-one and insta banned in every OTHER format sure). In multi-player a land that has to tap to perform its affect is inherently limited by the fact that there are multiple turns before you get to untap it, not just one.
How can you even argue that?!?! How can you argue that THOSE LANDS are not alright to pring because their effects cost mana, and then IN THE SAME BREATH argue that Homeward Path is fine?! Homeward Path casts and uncounterable Brand (or the effect from Brooding Saurian) FOR ZERO MANA! Not to mention Homeward Path is repeatable, unlike brand. Seriously, did you think about that for even a second?
There is a long precedent for lands having activated abilities which are not mana abilities as long as the abilities are appropriately cheap. The effect on Homeward Path is worth less than one mana; It's weaker than Brand and it's weaker than the ability on Brooding Saurian, an already aggressively costed creature.
The standard is something like a fair land should be printable as a fair artifact for 2. Having an artifact for 2 which taps for an ability worth less than one mana is fine. Having an artifact that costs 2 and taps for the effect of a four-cost spell is obviously not fine.
There is a long precedent for lands having activated abilities which are not mana abilities as long as the abilities are appropriately cheap. The effect on Homeward Path is worth less than one mana; It's weaker than Brand and it's weaker than the ability on Brooding Saurian, an already aggressively costed creature.
The standard is something like a fair land should be printable as a fair artifact for 2. Having an artifact for 2 which taps for an ability worth less than one mana is fine. Having an artifact that costs 2 and taps for the effect of a four-cost spell is obviously not fine.
You forget the part where Brand does not have buyback 0.
That land actually isn't so bad since your opponents can still gang up to kill you and it won't retroactively prevent damage. More like this:
Land, T: Add 1 to your mana pool., T: Until your next turn, prevent all combat damage that would be dealt by creatures.
Pretty sure Mr. Charizard over there is saying your examples were not reflective on there counterparts original mana cost. So the correct example for him is:
Land, T: Add 1 to your mana pool., T: Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn.
This is Fog or Holy Day for 1, I guess in relation to Homeward Path this is perfectly printable. Guess it's time to hose any attacking decks with the super Maze of Ith.
Did you even read my previous post? Being not just easy but completely free to play is only half my argument. Being hard to counter only makes it worse, but is not the primary content of my argument. The second half of my argument was that this is a repeatable hoser.
.
So... I did read your post ? LOL reading comp. Again, I'll ask, how do you deal with problematic lands that are arguably better then this one ?
If your argument is solely because its extremely easy to play and hard to counter, then how do you deal with other lands that are arguably better and more problematic.
EDIT: Are you kidding me ? You'd put this in every deck ? Please refer to my earlier post about deck building.
I can't think of a land that can retroactively counter multiple staples just by tapping. That can also tap for mana. And seriously, how are you supposed to answer this if they activate it the turn they play it? A preemptive Pithing Needle?
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It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for the winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came and the grasshopper died and the octopus ate all his acorns. And also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?
I can't think of a land that can retroactively counter multiple staples just by tapping. That can also tap for mana.
I didn't ask you to. What I asked was, In your playgroup/whenever you're playing EDH, How do you deal with problematic lands that are arguably better this this one ?
Pretty sure Mr. Charizard over there is saying your examples were not reflective on there counterparts original mana cost. So the correct example for him is:
Land, T: Add 1 to your mana pool., T: Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn.
This is Fog or Holy Day for 1, I guess in relation to Homeward Path this is perfectly printable. Guess it's time to hose any attacking decks with the super Maze of Ith.
My point was that none of those lands would be healthy for EDH. Honestly, I think a Fog Land without any activation cost at all would be extremely unhealthy for EDH as well. Kor Haven, Mystifying Maze, and Prahv all have activation costs, and Maze of Ith can't tap for mana. They all have way more drawbacks than a fog land.
I didn't ask you to. What I asked was, In your playgroup/whenever you're playing EDH, How do you deal with problematic lands that are arguably better this this one ?
Asking us to support a different argument so that you can refute that argument's point, and thus discredit me is a argumentative fallacy. What you need to do is refute the point I made in my previous post.
The land is not broken, but it is essentially a free to play, powerful answer to many spells in the format, so it will be played everywhere. Since it will be played everywhere, the format will shift to completely eliminate the types of cards this land answers. That is not healthy for EDH
If you're in a meta where it isn't played everywhere, well that's great. Lucky you. But that doesn't negate the effect it will have on my meta (which will be exactly as I have stated, knowing my players) or any meta sufficiently competative that players run "must run" lands like Stripmine and Wasteland (but not sufficiently competative that games end consistently before turn 5).
I didn't ask you to. What I asked was, In your playgroup/whenever you're playing EDH, How do you deal with problematic lands that are arguably better this this one ?
Same way you deal with this. The difference is, those lands are enablers for other cards, not a good effect on their own. A card like cabal coffers lets you play an extra card on one turn before it blows up, and that's not nearly as insane as taking back a creature someone reanimated or stole of yours. And cabal coffers is much more situational and less utility. What other lands are you talking about that are arguably better than this?
My point is, you can't preemptively answer a land, or even answer them without letting them get an activation, so they shouldn't be able to actively affect the board state of your opponents with minimal investment.
It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for the winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came and the grasshopper died and the octopus ate all his acorns. And also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?
My point was that none of those lands would be healthy for EDH. Honestly, I think a Fog Land without any activation cost at all would be extremely unhealthy for EDH as well. Kor Haven, Mystifying Maze, and Prahv all have activation costs, and Maze of Ith can't tap for mana. They all have way more drawbacks than a fog land.
I agree with you, I been saying the same thing for the past two hours. You just happen to combine all my posts and put the pretty tap symbol in
On the other hand. We know there are answers to this. It has never been the point. The point still is that is hinders an archetype more than any other card. If you think it's fair then you must think my super maze of ith is fair or any other cards Glitch has posted.
The card is NOT broken and should NOT be banned ethier.
Pretty sure Mr. Charizard over there is saying your examples were not reflective on there counterparts original mana cost. So the correct example for him is:
Land, T: Add 1 to your mana pool., T: Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn.
This is Fog or Holy Day for 1, I guess in relation to Homeward Path this is perfectly printable. Guess it's time to hose any attacking decks with the super Maze of Ith.
We've never seen something better than Fog for 1, or a free repeatable Fog (like the Saurian) so FogLand is still a bit stronger. But sure, let's consider this. In a duel where you're running no answers, this land will hose you. On the other hand, if you're playing EDH, this land is aggravating but manageable.
I am looking forward to possibly causing ragequits due to playing this card.
If a card like Homeward Path make you folks so unbelievably and disproportionately butthurt and ragey, I can't imagine that anyone could possibly have any fun playing against you.
You forgot the part where that's irrelevant to my argument.
We've never seen something better than Fog for 1, or a free repeatable Fog (like the Saurian) so FogLand is still a bit stronger. But sure, let's consider this. In a duel where you're running no answers, this land will hose you. On the other hand, if you're playing EDH, this land is aggravating but manageable.
You forgot the part where aggravating but manageable is not something that should EVER have to be uttered about a colorless utility land with no drawback past tapping for 1 instead of a color. Geez.
I am looking forward to possibly causing ragequits due to playing this card. :tounge:
If a card like Homeward Path make you folks so unbelievably and disproportionately butthurt and ragey, I can't imagine that anyone could possibly have any fun playing against you.
Ok, now you're being unreasonable. Just because a card is unbalanced does not mean it will make anyone who disagrees with it ragequits upon seeing it. The card just does too much to be a land.
It's just like the story of the grasshopper and the octopus. All year long, the grasshopper kept burying acorns for the winter, while the octopus mooched off his girlfriend and watched TV. But then the winter came and the grasshopper died and the octopus ate all his acorns. And also he got a racecar. Is any of this getting through to you?
There is a long precedent for lands having activated abilities which are not mana abilities as long as the abilities are appropriately cheap.
Not necessarily. How much does "draw a card" cost? It's not unprecedented to have it at one mana. How much would it cost if it added "play this if you have exactly seven cards in your hand?" Presumably less, since there is a drawback on it. But that doesn't make it acceptable to put on a land that costs no mana and has no drawback.
I am looking forward to possibly causing ragequits due to playing this card. :tounge:
If a card like Homeward Path make you folks so unbelievably and disproportionately butthurt and ragey, I can't imagine that anyone could possibly have any fun playing against you.
I'm sorry if you consider rational, logical argument "butthurt and ragey", but I much prefer that type of discussion over your arguments consisting of "other dude's like 'WAAAAAAAHHHH'! thus they are completely wrong and their argument is invalid".
We've never seen something better than Fog for 1, or a free repeatable Fog (like the Saurian) so FogLand is still a bit stronger. But sure, let's consider this. In a duel where you're running no answers, this land will hose you. On the other hand, if you're playing EDH, this land is aggravating but manageable.
Exactly this card will STALL any aggro deck. Exactly what Homeward Path does. It stalls the control deck till it answers it. Plus, they would never print this super Maze if they won't print the common Maze of Ith. By your logic the super maze is not broke and perfectly printable.
You forgot the part where aggravating but manageable is not something that should EVER have to be uttered about a colorless utility land with no drawback past tapping for 1 instead of a color. Geez.
You're right! FogLand is a griefer card!
Luckily Wizards doesn't like to print conditionless griefer cards. They much prefer to print easy answers to griefer cards... see Homeward Path.
I think what you mean to say is: blue players *****ed about not having an answer. Then one was provided so they changed their argument to some other garbage. It happens all the time on this message board.
It's not broken. It does have answers. It doesn't go in EVERY deck. Yes it's good, but it's not going to warp the format. Powerful cards get printed all the time.. this one is no different and it's not going to stop.
Welcome to Magic the Gathering.
How can you even argue that?!?! How can you argue that THOSE LANDS are not alright to pring because their effects cost mana, and then IN THE SAME BREATH argue that Homeward Path is fine?! Homeward Path casts and uncounterable Brand (or the effect from Brooding Saurian) FOR ZERO MANA! Not to mention Homeward Path is repeatable, unlike brand. Seriously, did you think about that for even a second?
And to Doodlebug, different people argue different things. The fact that this card is so easily playable, repeatable, and completely invalidates a strategy (as well as numerous random cards) is what really bothers me. The existance of answers was never in question for me.
The fact that it is extremely difficult to counter just adds to the problem. You need a Stifle effect and a Stripmine or Annex effect to stop it. Not only that, it is completely infeasable to expect a single player to be able to answer every single copy of this land in a multiplayer game.
To Secularon, no it's not broken, but it's not healthy for the format either.
Yes, it does go into every deck. I would even play this card in a deck who's theme is stealing things, because I don't have to activate it unless it's beneficial to me! The only way I would not play this card is if I were playing cutthroat competative EDH meta with Hermit Druid and Sharuum decks running rampant, where the game is over by turn 4.
Actually I believe my very first post on this topic was that it needed a drawback. I am still incredibly against this card because it doesnt come in tapped or sac to use.
I would actually be entirely for this card if it just had another drawback.
As for the people saying that it is 1 card in a 100 card format... clearly you dont play with enough people who tutor into a turn 4-5 primeval titan. Entire games are fought over Primeval Titan and considering he can now go with his first tutor and solve theft issues it really makes Primeval Titan just better...
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ISBPathfinders is right; yes, there are answers to it, sure (after it's been used already, though). And agree, no one ever said that there weren't answers. The whole point of this thread was to discuss how this card is an overreaction to one type of strategy, and it's going to change the whole format in a very heavy-handed and (IMHO) poorly designed way.
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For God's sake...
Can people please learn what strictly better means, please...
High Market has a dozen more uses than protecting against mind control effects. It could activate sac effects, activate a grave pact, throw a creature in the yard so it can be reanimated next turn, gain you a life in a pinch, etc.
If your argument is solely because its extremely easy to play and hard to counter, then how do you deal with other lands that are arguably better and more problematic.
EDIT: Are you kidding me ? You'd put this in every deck ? Please refer to my earlier post about deck building.
That land actually isn't so bad since your opponents can still gang up to kill you and it won't retroactively prevent damage. More like this:
Land, T: Add 1 to your mana pool., T: Until your next turn, prevent all combat damage that would be dealt by creatures.
Did you even read my previous post? Being not just easy but completely free to play is only half my argument. Being hard to counter only makes it worse, but is not the primary content of my argument. The second half of my argument was that this is a repeatable hoser.
I will never be in support of free (in terms of deck slot, and mana cost), repeatable hosers of an entire strategy.
FogLand would actually be fine, given that this is a multiplayer format (it'd be broken as hell in one-on-one and insta banned in every OTHER format sure). In multi-player a land that has to tap to perform its affect is inherently limited by the fact that there are multiple turns before you get to untap it, not just one.
There is a long precedent for lands having activated abilities which are not mana abilities as long as the abilities are appropriately cheap. The effect on Homeward Path is worth less than one mana; It's weaker than Brand and it's weaker than the ability on Brooding Saurian, an already aggressively costed creature.
The standard is something like a fair land should be printable as a fair artifact for 2. Having an artifact for 2 which taps for an ability worth less than one mana is fine. Having an artifact that costs 2 and taps for the effect of a four-cost spell is obviously not fine.
You forget the part where Brand does not have buyback 0.
Pretty sure Mr. Charizard over there is saying your examples were not reflective on there counterparts original mana cost. So the correct example for him is:
Land, T: Add 1 to your mana pool., T: Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt this turn.
This is Fog or Holy Day for 1, I guess in relation to Homeward Path this is perfectly printable. Guess it's time to hose any attacking decks with the super Maze of Ith.
So... I did read your post ? LOL reading comp. Again, I'll ask, how do you deal with problematic lands that are arguably better then this one ?
I can't think of a land that can retroactively counter multiple staples just by tapping. That can also tap for mana. And seriously, how are you supposed to answer this if they activate it the turn they play it? A preemptive Pithing Needle?
I didn't ask you to. What I asked was, In your playgroup/whenever you're playing EDH, How do you deal with problematic lands that are arguably better this this one ?
My point was that none of those lands would be healthy for EDH. Honestly, I think a Fog Land without any activation cost at all would be extremely unhealthy for EDH as well. Kor Haven, Mystifying Maze, and Prahv all have activation costs, and Maze of Ith can't tap for mana. They all have way more drawbacks than a fog land.
Asking us to support a different argument so that you can refute that argument's point, and thus discredit me is a argumentative fallacy. What you need to do is refute the point I made in my previous post.
The land is not broken, but it is essentially a free to play, powerful answer to many spells in the format, so it will be played everywhere. Since it will be played everywhere, the format will shift to completely eliminate the types of cards this land answers. That is not healthy for EDH
If you're in a meta where it isn't played everywhere, well that's great. Lucky you. But that doesn't negate the effect it will have on my meta (which will be exactly as I have stated, knowing my players) or any meta sufficiently competative that players run "must run" lands like Stripmine and Wasteland (but not sufficiently competative that games end consistently before turn 5).
Same way you deal with this. The difference is, those lands are enablers for other cards, not a good effect on their own. A card like cabal coffers lets you play an extra card on one turn before it blows up, and that's not nearly as insane as taking back a creature someone reanimated or stole of yours. And cabal coffers is much more situational and less utility. What other lands are you talking about that are arguably better than this?
My point is, you can't preemptively answer a land, or even answer them without letting them get an activation, so they shouldn't be able to actively affect the board state of your opponents with minimal investment.
I agree with you, I been saying the same thing for the past two hours. You just happen to combine all my posts and put the pretty tap symbol in
On the other hand. We know there are answers to this. It has never been the point. The point still is that is hinders an archetype more than any other card. If you think it's fair then you must think my super maze of ith is fair or any other cards Glitch has posted.
The card is NOT broken and should NOT be banned ethier.
You forgot the part where that's irrelevant to my argument.
We've never seen something better than Fog for 1, or a free repeatable Fog (like the Saurian) so FogLand is still a bit stronger. But sure, let's consider this. In a duel where you're running no answers, this land will hose you. On the other hand, if you're playing EDH, this land is aggravating but manageable.
If a card like Homeward Path make you folks so unbelievably and disproportionately butthurt and ragey, I can't imagine that anyone could possibly have any fun playing against you.
You forgot the part where aggravating but manageable is not something that should EVER have to be uttered about a colorless utility land with no drawback past tapping for 1 instead of a color. Geez.
Ok, now you're being unreasonable. Just because a card is unbalanced does not mean it will make anyone who disagrees with it ragequits upon seeing it. The card just does too much to be a land.
I'm sorry if you consider rational, logical argument "butthurt and ragey", but I much prefer that type of discussion over your arguments consisting of "other dude's like 'WAAAAAAAHHHH'! thus they are completely wrong and their argument is invalid".
Exactly this card will STALL any aggro deck. Exactly what Homeward Path does. It stalls the control deck till it answers it. Plus, they would never print this super Maze if they won't print the common Maze of Ith. By your logic the super maze is not broke and perfectly printable.
You're right! FogLand is a griefer card!
Luckily Wizards doesn't like to print conditionless griefer cards. They much prefer to print easy answers to griefer cards... see Homeward Path.