Nice work Wizards, both of these cards are very well designed and scream multiplayer but not to the point where they are going to be in absolutely every deck.
Nin seems amazing to me. Just the versatility in that card is so appealing. Actually once these cards come out, I'll probably switch my mono red Kumano burn deck to blue-red with Nin. She can play the multiplayer politics really well. If a player is falling behind or getting ganged up on, burn their measly 1/1 for 5, while giving them 5 cards so they can get back into the fight. A pesky control creature like Azami got you down? Burn her for 2, giving that player only 2 cards instead of the eventual flood of card advantage they would get. She can even target herself, basically turning into a sacrifice effect to draw X cards. She's even a general that can combo off, with infinite mana and an opponent with a creature in play, you can make them draw their deck FTW.
The archangel seems like a lot of fun too. But the flavor behind the card and how they made it come to life is amazing. The idea that each player can choose war or peace is so nice (as opposed to only the controller choosing it, which I could've seen). It just fits. The name, the ability, everything just fits. Even at the heart of it it's a 6/6 flyer for 7, which isn't amazing but isn't bad either.
Both are just well balanced, fun for multiplayer, and can be abusable. All the qualities that Commander players look for.
I have a rules question about Nin. If she shoots an aeon chronicler while you have lets say 4 cards in hand and she shoots him for 5, will he die and the the controller draws the cards, or do you get a 9/9 with 5 damage on it?
I have a rules question about Nin. If she shoots an aeon chronicler while you have lets say 4 cards in hand and she shoots him for 5, will he die and the the controller draws the cards, or do you get a 9/9 with 5 damage on it?
Edit:
420.4. Unlike triggered abilities, state-based effects pay no attention to what happens during the resolution of a spell or ability.
Example:
A player controls a creature with the ability “This creature’s power and toughness are each equal to the number of cards in your hand” and plays a spell whose effect is “Discard your hand, then draw seven cards.” The creature will temporarily have toughness 0 in the middle of the spell’s resolution but will be back up to toughness 7 when the spell finishes resolving. Thus the creature will survive when state-based effects are checked. In contrast, an ability that triggers when the player has no cards in hand goes on the stack after the spell resolves, because its trigger event happened during resolution.
So, yes, the Chronicler survives.
Just another tidbit from someone who was at the panel. I wasn't able to ask a public question since a bunch of herp derps wasted a bunch of time asking 'What should I do if my friends target me because I play cannons?' instead of relevant questions.
Supposedly Commander is something they want to support in the longterm and will see more releases in the future. Also it's quite possible for Planechase and Archenemy to come back in the future. Perhaps staggering every other year hopefully.
Nothing in this game is degenerate or completely dominant. They haven't banned anything in standard in a long, long time. Hell they should have banned affinity right away, but they didn't until boxed sales collapsed too. Hasbro had to come in and fire people.
I'll enjoy watching all the whiners eat crow monday.
One, intelligence and civilization isn't the same. They are of course factors, and I never argued against that. There are a number of elementals that clearly are intelligent without having classes (see especially the maros), and there are a few elementals that "imitate a civilized people" like Windreaver (I'll assume that Ur-Drago is an error until I do more research). What I am saying is that there are other factors, including power and natural ability.
When I said "imitate a civilized people" I meant in the fashion of having a society, not in that they litterly look like people... Unless windreavers do act in such a manner, I didn't read that block. My point here was that regardless of being made out of pure mana, that doesn't exempt you from being able to obtain a class, and that power and natural ability don't define that either, as you have weak elementals that have no class and don't justify it by having a class.
You realize of course that that's the complete opposite of what I said? I specifically said that they don't strike or dodge like a knight, just like a dragon breathes fire and doesn't cast fireball like a wizard. A bear doesn't fight like a soldier, but the average bear will outfight the average soldier, and attempting to learn to fight like a bear doesn't help the soldier because the bear has advantages the soldier cannot hope to gain in most circumstances.
How different is a person with armor, shield and a sword going to first strike or have vigilance, than a person with armor, shield and a sword plus wings? So much that they aren't going to be considered a soldier/knight?
Making the comparison of a dragon breathing fire from it's mouth, and a wizard casting a fireball does not accurately depict the difference between an angel swinging with a sword, and a soldier/knight swinging with a sword. The soldier isn't creating an entirely different ritual to make the same act, when a person casts a fireball and a dragon breaths a fireball they aren't the same act as when angels and soldiers/knights fight. Plus when a creature has something similar to the way a dragons breath is represented in mtg, it's often called firebreathing or dragon breath. Therefore relating it back to the source it came from. Now if you were to say oh, well then why isnt that creature part dragon? Firebreathing does not define a dragon but is nearly a trait of the race, first strike and vigilance however are not part of a race when associating it with soldiers/knights, but as a part of the class which is an external knowledge, not an internal mechanism.
With your comparison of a bear to a soldier, it sort of goes with what I said above. Where it wouldn't help the soldier to learn how to fight like a bear, but if he did he wouldn't be considered a bear. However if a bear developed the intelligence and civility to learn the ways of becoming a soldier, wouldn't he be considered a soldier? What about race exempts you from becoming a class when you act in the same manner?
You did notice that I brought them up because they do not quite fit into that idea, are more powerful than humans, and sometimes do and sometimes don't have classes, right? Certainly, I've tried to give some explanations, some meta and some not, but I've acknowledged the issue you are putting forth here. For the purpose of full disclosure, about 1/3 of the ogres don't have classes, and almost half the giants don't, with the latest cases of classless ogres in Besieged and Alara block, and the latest classless giants in M11 and Zendikar block.
Yes, and I was pointing out that if power was an issue here, then why do they still have classes? If angels are exempt from having a class because of their power, then why do giants, who are often a lot bigger than angels, typically have a class? I'm not seeing the correlation between power and class, but more with have base level civilization and intelligence....except when dealing with angels.
In any case, I've got a feeling from your post that would just taint any future discussion on my behalf, so I'll bow out with this: You feel Creative messed up, and still messes up, in this regard. If you haven't already done so, you should let Creative know. There are links to contact forms on the bottom of Wizards articles, so you could use that to contact someone. Brady Dommermuth as the Creative Director seems like the best candidate, but if you send it to Doug Beyer, phrased as a question, you might get an answer via the mothership.
You could make an argument that the angels without a class don't have "swords" but the the sword itself is actually a part of their being? though that tosses akroma's sword replica out the window. Maybe they never fight WITH their sword and they just blast light or something. Angels are dumb anyway.
In D&D, native outsiders don't have class levels, because they don't gain them. Classes are gained through training and experience. Angels and demons don't gain classes because they're born fighters. All their knowledge of combat is talent, as natural as a dragon's fire. Dragons, for example, can gain sorcerer levels, which does make them dragon sorcerers. But dragons with innate spell-like abilities are not sorcerers, because those abilities aren't learned. To state it again, differently: a bear who trained as a soldier would be a Bear Soldier, but angels do not train.
You could make an argument that the angels without a class don't have "swords" but the the sword itself is actually a part of their being? though that tosses akroma's sword replica out the window. Maybe they never fight WITH their sword and they just blast light or something. Angels are dumb anyway.
Well even if the sword was a part of their being, it would still be wielded and swung like a soldier/knight would. If dragon was considered a class, I would consider firebreathers to be "dragons".
In D&D, native outsiders don't have class levels, because they don't gain them. Classes are gained through training and experience. Angels and demons don't gain classes because they're born fighters. All their knowledge of combat is talent, as natural as a dragon's fire. Dragons, for example, can gain sorcerer levels, which does make them dragon sorcerers. But dragons with innate spell-like abilities are not sorcerers, because those abilities aren't learned. To state it again, differently: a bear who trained as a soldier would be a Bear Soldier, but angels do not train.
But in the world of magic there are things that are classes without training, Soldier Replica, inanimate objects Veteran's Armaments, and even most recently Etched Champion. I didn't realize it until I looked those up, but they're pretty loose with giving things classes, lol. If an angel is a creation, with the purpose of protecting, and given abilities of speech then why's it such a stretch for them to be created with the purpose of fighting in a similar manner of the things they're modled after. They do look like most soldiers, they do wear armor, shields and swords, they just have wings to boot, and perhaps more magical qualities.
Well even if the sword was a part of their being, it would still be wielded and swung like a soldier/knight would. If dragon was considered a class, I would consider firebreathers to be "dragons".
But in the world of magic there are things that are classes without training, Soldier Replica, inanimate objects Veteran's Armaments, and even most recently Etched Champion. I didn't realize it until I looked those up, but they're pretty loose with giving things classes, lol. If an angel is a creation, with the purpose of protecting, and given abilities of speech then why's it such a stretch for them to be created with the purpose of fighting in a similar manner of the things they're modled after. They do look like most soldiers, they do wear armor, shields and swords, they just have wings to boot, and perhaps more magical qualities.
Soldier Replica and Etched Champion are both ether programed to be soldiers and don't need training or since they are artifact creatures from Mirrodin they could have learned to be those classes. As for Veteran's Armaments thats purely mechanics and if wanted to be viewed lore wise its an equipment meant for soldiers not that its self is a soldier.
Soldier Replica and Etched Champion are both ether programed to be soldiers and don't need training or since they are artifact creatures from Mirrodin they could have learned to be those classes. As for Veteran's Armaments thats purely mechanics and if wanted to be viewed lore wise its an equipment meant for soldiers not that its self is a soldier.
Yes, these were all evident when I made my post and were part of what I was trying to say. Just as an angel doesn't need to be taught how to speak or use it's motor skills, it didn't need to be taught how to use a sword, just like how Soldier Replica didn't need to be taught either. They're both crafted things. For the equipment, that's to show how unrelated to a person growing up and being taught how to become a soldier is the defining characteristic of a soldier. That an inaimate sword can be given the soldier subtype, and that angels who are more closely related to a soldier than a sword is should have the subtype.
Just... wow... Nin is instant card draw each turn if you have anyone that can soak up that damage or just gives you insane ways to abuse that ability if you have the right cards (Niv-Mizzet fits the Nin's color identity for EDH). It also provides defense with a bit of drawback if needed...
So um... does Archangel of Strife war/peace effect leave when she leaves the battlefield?
Or is it like an Emblem?
Does blinking her let me stack up War and Peaces?
When she gets blinked, the effect is gone. When she comes back, players will choose again.
Having choices on the card doesn't make it any different. Think of it as you would a Crusade or Glorious Anthem effect. If the card isn't there, the effect isn't either.
Emblems are for things that continue to exist even when the thing that created it is no longer in play.
Archangel of Strife has two static abilities that will only apply for as long as she is on the battlefield.
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Standard: Jeskai Tempo
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EDH: Ghave, Token Master
Nin seems amazing to me. Just the versatility in that card is so appealing. Actually once these cards come out, I'll probably switch my mono red Kumano burn deck to blue-red with Nin. She can play the multiplayer politics really well. If a player is falling behind or getting ganged up on, burn their measly 1/1 for 5, while giving them 5 cards so they can get back into the fight. A pesky control creature like Azami got you down? Burn her for 2, giving that player only 2 cards instead of the eventual flood of card advantage they would get. She can even target herself, basically turning into a sacrifice effect to draw X cards. She's even a general that can combo off, with infinite mana and an opponent with a creature in play, you can make them draw their deck FTW.
The archangel seems like a lot of fun too. But the flavor behind the card and how they made it come to life is amazing. The idea that each player can choose war or peace is so nice (as opposed to only the controller choosing it, which I could've seen). It just fits. The name, the ability, everything just fits. Even at the heart of it it's a 6/6 flyer for 7, which isn't amazing but isn't bad either.
Both are just well balanced, fun for multiplayer, and can be abusable. All the qualities that Commander players look for.
Edit:
So, yes, the Chronicler survives.
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------------
In Phyrexia, Black will do anything to be broken in Vintage.
Supposedly Commander is something they want to support in the longterm and will see more releases in the future. Also it's quite possible for Planechase and Archenemy to come back in the future. Perhaps staggering every other year hopefully.
Who's eating crow?
URx: draw x cards, each opponent loses x life.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
How different is a person with armor, shield and a sword going to first strike or have vigilance, than a person with armor, shield and a sword plus wings? So much that they aren't going to be considered a soldier/knight?
Making the comparison of a dragon breathing fire from it's mouth, and a wizard casting a fireball does not accurately depict the difference between an angel swinging with a sword, and a soldier/knight swinging with a sword. The soldier isn't creating an entirely different ritual to make the same act, when a person casts a fireball and a dragon breaths a fireball they aren't the same act as when angels and soldiers/knights fight. Plus when a creature has something similar to the way a dragons breath is represented in mtg, it's often called firebreathing or dragon breath. Therefore relating it back to the source it came from. Now if you were to say oh, well then why isnt that creature part dragon? Firebreathing does not define a dragon but is nearly a trait of the race, first strike and vigilance however are not part of a race when associating it with soldiers/knights, but as a part of the class which is an external knowledge, not an internal mechanism.
With your comparison of a bear to a soldier, it sort of goes with what I said above. Where it wouldn't help the soldier to learn how to fight like a bear, but if he did he wouldn't be considered a bear. However if a bear developed the intelligence and civility to learn the ways of becoming a soldier, wouldn't he be considered a soldier? What about race exempts you from becoming a class when you act in the same manner? Yes, and I was pointing out that if power was an issue here, then why do they still have classes? If angels are exempt from having a class because of their power, then why do giants, who are often a lot bigger than angels, typically have a class? I'm not seeing the correlation between power and class, but more with have base level civilization and intelligence....except when dealing with angels.
I might just do that, I appreciate it.
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But in the world of magic there are things that are classes without training, Soldier Replica, inanimate objects Veteran's Armaments, and even most recently Etched Champion. I didn't realize it until I looked those up, but they're pretty loose with giving things classes, lol. If an angel is a creation, with the purpose of protecting, and given abilities of speech then why's it such a stretch for them to be created with the purpose of fighting in a similar manner of the things they're modled after. They do look like most soldiers, they do wear armor, shields and swords, they just have wings to boot, and perhaps more magical qualities.
My Helpdesk: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=7776298#post7776298
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I like Nin. Blast your own wall to draw plenty of cards.
The Archangel is interesting. It's been a long time since the last time we choose east and west, hasn't it?
Yes, only in commander precons.
Legal in eternal formats.
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EDH Decks:
Ghost Council: The Magic Mafia of Orzhova
BB Drana: Down with the Sickness
Rasputin: Reality is Broken
Vish Kal Bleeder: Bloody Kisses
Teysa, Orzhov Dominatrix
Stonebrow: Breaking Things
BWR Kaalia Punisher: Heaven's on Fire
Grimgrin: Dead Reckoning
Soldier Replica and Etched Champion are both ether programed to be soldiers and don't need training or since they are artifact creatures from Mirrodin they could have learned to be those classes. As for Veteran's Armaments thats purely mechanics and if wanted to be viewed lore wise its an equipment meant for soldiers not that its self is a soldier.
URThe Joy of Painting with Nin, the Pain Artist!UR
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Nin plus Swans of Bryn Argoll plus Psychosis Crawler = Much, much pain.
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RUB
Players who chose breasts get Nin, The Pain Artist.
Players who chose ass get Archangel of Strife.
Or is it like an Emblem?
Does blinking her let me stack up War and Peaces?
So Pro I have an alpha Volcanic Island
When she's not there, the effect isn't there.
When she gets blinked, the effect is gone. When she comes back, players will choose again.
Having choices on the card doesn't make it any different. Think of it as you would a Crusade or Glorious Anthem effect. If the card isn't there, the effect isn't either.
Ahh nope
Nin is a regular sized card, they just showed it off in large form. And, yes it will be playable in legacy.
It's possible that was intentional. In Japan, "peach" is slang for thighs and buttocks.
I have come to spread the gospel of Cockatrice, the best free source for online play.
------------
In Phyrexia, Black will do anything to be broken in Vintage.