If this card doesn't see standard play, then standard is in a really bad spot. It would be better at 3 power, as I've said, but still, a 2/2 hasty guy for 3 that is easily recurrable in his color seems crazy good. I see big things for this little card, once stoneforge and the hawks rotate.
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
This seems like a great way to give RDW that extra little reach in the late game. Assuming you have one of these in yard, every topdecked burn spell now does 2 more. I think its pretty scary that a topdecked lightning bolt could be worth 5 damage.
Absolutely love this card. As a off-and-on red player, this seriously excites me. A 3CC 2/2 isn't all that bad to start with, but add flying, and now were talking! But then, then WotC decided to give the darned thing haste! Oh, well that just wasn't enough... it wasn't a large enough cherry on top, so they also gave us an awesome ability that becomes super relevant in red. Yeah, this card is going to be fun.
Haha, I just realized that this card is awfully close to being a red equivalent of Vengevine. Returning to hand is obviously not nearly as good as returning to play, but the basic concept is incredibly similar (and this is more combolicious with Ablaze, obviously).
They'd probably play really well together, since it lets you turn on your red burn spells as sources of Vengevine recursion, making them even harder to deal with. It can make for a decent sacrifice victim to an Eldrazi Monument too, as it is easier to recur than a Vine, since you only need a single card to do it. If you wanted to get really out of bounds you could play an almost mono-Red deck with just enough Green sources as well as Chandra Ablaze as a means of getting Vines either into play or into the yard and then into play, and supplement it all with a host of excellent Red creatures and burn.
The only downside to this card is that it does not combo with Koth's ultimate, but then again, if you've activated Koth's ultimate the game is almost certainly going to be over.
You're totally 100% right bro..no chance of argument ever.
Oh..and you'll probably hop on the bandwagon and say it's a good card once it comes out and proves itself. I kind of want to sig your hatred towards it.
I also want to know how Vengevine is coming out turn 2, other then magical christmasland examples with Chancellor of the Tangle or turn 2 Cobra, fetch, Explore, fetch, Vengevine..since those totally happen all the time.
Sure. I'll make you a deal: You must sig the following 2 things:
1) My disdain for the card. You must include the fact that I do think it will see play if it performs a function similar to Squee, Goblin Nabob, as I said it will see play if it performs that function but in no other function.
2) Your love for the card, and you saying that you think it's better than Vengevine.
You must keep both of these things sigged for Chandra's Phoenix's entire lifetime in Standard. Thus, if I'm wrong, I look stupid for a year, and if you're wrong, you look stupid for a year.
Sound fair?
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Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Not all mono-red decks go for that low of a curve or that kind of speed. Slower Big Red style decks have potential as well (and even if it's not as good, it would be my preferred style of play regardless).
So, basically, because it's what you want to play, it must be good? Not even Conley Woods would make that assertion, and Conley Woods is a much better deckbuilder than you are. I think you need to look up the word "good", because you seem not to know what it means.
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Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
I'd rather play a below-optimal deck that I enjoy playing than a top-tier one I don't enjoy. That's my style; the fact that I like the card and want to use it doesn't do anyone else any harm. If you think I'm wasting my time, that's fine, but I'll go ahead and say that your tone is bordering on flaming.
I'd rather play a below-optimal deck that I enjoy playing than a top-tier one I don't enjoy. That's my style; the fact that I like the card and want to use it doesn't do anyone else any harm. If you think I'm wasting my time, that's fine, but I'll go ahead and say that your tone is bordering on flaming.
You're entitled to your opinion that you think the card is fun in the decks you like to play. However, there's a colossal difference between saying the card is "fun" and the card is "good". I can't argue with the former, but I sure as heck can tell argue with what you did, which is the latter.
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Old terminology reference:
Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Sure. I'll make you a deal: You must sig the following 2 things:
1) My disdain for the card. You must include the fact that I do think it will see play if it performs a function similar to Squee, Goblin Nabob, as I said it will see play if it performs that function but in no other function.
2) Your love for the card, and you saying that you think it's better than Vengevine.
You must keep both of these things sigged for Chandra's Phoenix's entire lifetime in Standard. Thus, if I'm wrong, I look stupid for a year, and if you're wrong, you look stupid for a year.
Sound fair?
1.) It would see play as a Vengevine'ish flying 2/2, and if there is a discard outlet, then it would serve that purpose too.
2.) I never said it is better than Vengevine. I said it's easier to recur in the deck made to use it (you know..with infinite burn spells).
And I don't want you to look stupid. I want to see you go back on your word and say that this card is awesome down the line.
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
You're entitled to your opinion that you think the card is fun in the decks you like to play. However, there's a colossal difference between saying the card is "fun" and the card is "good". I can't argue with the former, but I sure as heck can tell argue with what you did, which is the latter.
Funny, I don't recall using that word, at least not in this thread. I haven't said anything other than express that I'm impressed with the card and would like to play it, and that mono-red decks in Standard with at least moderate amounts of success that don't go for super-fast kills do exist.
Yep, since a 2/2 flying haste that is easier to bring back then Vengevine sucks, right?
This card will be played. A lot.
Quote from Spicay »
1.) It would see play as a Vengevine'ish flying 2/2, and if there is a discard outlet, then it would serve that purpose too.
2.) I never said it is better than Vengevine. I said it's easier to recur in the deck made to use it (you know..with infinite burn spells).
And I don't want you to look stupid. I want to see you go back on your word and say that this card is awesome down the line.
'Nuff said.
As for your third comment, I definitely will go back on my word based on what else comes out in M12 and Innistrad block. If there is a good deck for it, then it will be a good card. If there is no good deck for it, it will not be a good card. However, historical trends state that decks that this card would be playable in will either use it as a Squee or will be bad decks. A 2/2 red flier for 3 has not been playable since Bird Maiden was a Tier 1 card. Red decks have typically been of the "play burn spells, kill you quickly, if we go to turn 5 I scoop" variety, and such decks do not want a 2/2 for 3 no matter what abilities it has.
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Old terminology reference:
Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Funny, I don't recall using that word, at least not in this thread. I haven't said anything other than express that I'm impressed with the card and would like to play it, and that mono-red decks in Standard with at least moderate amounts of success that don't go for super-fast kills do exist.
Problem is, such decks do not, in fact, exist. It's that "moderate amounts of success" thing. Yes, you can build a deck that starts with 4 Everflowing Chalice and ends with 4 Inferno Titan and 4 Volt Charge. The cards do exist. The deck, however, is not good, and only stands to become worse once Chalice rotates out.
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Old terminology reference:
Play (noun): Battlefield
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
Problem is, such decks do not, in fact, exist. It's that "moderate amounts of success" thing. Yes, you can build a deck that starts with 4 Everflowing Chalice and ends with 4 Inferno Titan and 4 Volt Charge. The cards do exist. The deck, however, is not good, and only stands to become worse once Chalice rotates out.
Good enough for me to consider playing it during the window of opportunity when M12 and Chalice are both legal together. But I have much lower standards than you, of course.
Everyone who keeps comparing this to Squee obviously forgot that Squee was just a 1/1. This is a 2/2 with evasion, haste, and recursion and it is aggressively costed as well. Mark my words. This will see play.
Everyone who keeps comparing this to Squee obviously forgot that Squee was just a 1/1. This is a 2/2 with evasion, haste, and recursion and it is aggressively costed as well. Mark my words. This will see play.
It will see play but so will Kuldotha Phoenix which is pretty damn easy to recur with Inkmoth Nexus and artifacts such as the Red Shrine. Patience is a virtue, right? ...and we're back to Surgical Extraction. Critical thinking FTW!
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
2/2 flying haste for 3 with recursion is, in itself, a good card. It's card advantage for a deck that usually has no card advantage. Of course you can say "this card is not good enough, needs more interaction". Vengevine could be a horrible card if there weren't ways to keep your hand stocked with creatures or ways to abuse it with Fauna Shaman/discard/filter effects. I'm not saying Chandra's Phoenix is stronger than vengevine though.
This card seems like it could already be started up in some brews. A midrange tempo deck with Sword of This or That would be really nice. Hasty recur-able guys at a reasonable cost with some of the nastiest equipment printed? I'm interested! This core set looks like it could be very interesting just based on some of changes and spoilers we've seen so far.
It will see play but so will Kuldotha Phoenix which is pretty damn easy to recur with Inkmoth Nexus and artifacts such as the Red Shrine. Patience is a virtue, right? ...and we're back to Surgical Extraction. Critical thinking FTW!
You can't even begin to compare Kuldotha Phoenix to this card. The difference between three and five mana is huge.
You can't even begin to compare Kuldotha Phoenix to this card. The difference between three and five mana is huge.
This, and not only do you have to fill your deck with cards you may not want to be playing in order to play Kuldotha Phoenix (artifacts), but if you don't draw enough of them/your opponent gets rid of them, you don't get any value. With the new phoenix, you just have to play burn spells, which red decks want to do anyway, and you get value for days!
It's not a guarantee, but this duder certainly seems like he'll see play.
Don't know if anyone mentioned this or not but this card has some decent synergy with Fling as well. I mean 1R for Shock isn't that great but you could do some neat combat tricks with it or also to protect it from any exile spells. Also with it's evasion, you could attack, pump and Fling it for some increased damage, just to cast it again next turn.
A few days ago I was reading this article talking about RDW style decks. The author talks about how 3 is the magic number. A card must be worth 3 damage to be playable. In any given game you can expect to see 7 non land cards in the first 3 turns, and 7x3=21. It is the basic principle that RDW decks are built upon.
The fact that it has haste and evasion means it will nearly always be worth 2 damage, usually 4. I think that with the fact that it helps with the late game reach making every topdecked bolt or shock do 2 more damage makes this a pretty playable card. Time will tell of course, its all dependent on whether or not we get a good a mono red deck after rotation and what else is in the 3cc slot. Right now staggershock is seeing play in RDW, and both of these cards are 4 damage for 3 mana. Of course staggershock has the potential to clear up the board, but the phoenix also has the potential to do more than 4 damage.
This, and not only do you have to fill your deck with cards you may not want to be playing in order to play Kuldotha Phoenix (artifacts), but if you don't draw enough of them/your opponent gets rid of them, you don't get any value. With the new phoenix, you just have to play burn spells, which red decks want to do anyway, and you get value for days!
It's not a guarantee, but this duder certainly seems like he'll see play.
Lol. Try reading cards. So either a burn spell to the face and another 1RR for a 2/2 flying haste OR 4 generic & metal craft (which big red easily has especially w/ ink moth) for a 4/4 flying haste. Yeah, pretty sure they are comparable.
Kuldotha is everywhere in block constructed - it's pretty good ;).
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
I really hope that there is room in M12 for 2 Phoenixes. I have always been a big fan of Magma Phoenix, and am going to have so much fun for the few months when both of them are legal with Chandra Ablaze.
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RGStandard Gruul AggroRG
They'd probably play really well together, since it lets you turn on your red burn spells as sources of Vengevine recursion, making them even harder to deal with. It can make for a decent sacrifice victim to an Eldrazi Monument too, as it is easier to recur than a Vine, since you only need a single card to do it. If you wanted to get really out of bounds you could play an almost mono-Red deck with just enough Green sources as well as Chandra Ablaze as a means of getting Vines either into play or into the yard and then into play, and supplement it all with a host of excellent Red creatures and burn.
The only downside to this card is that it does not combo with Koth's ultimate, but then again, if you've activated Koth's ultimate the game is almost certainly going to be over.
Sure. I'll make you a deal: You must sig the following 2 things:
1) My disdain for the card. You must include the fact that I do think it will see play if it performs a function similar to Squee, Goblin Nabob, as I said it will see play if it performs that function but in no other function.
2) Your love for the card, and you saying that you think it's better than Vengevine.
You must keep both of these things sigged for Chandra's Phoenix's entire lifetime in Standard. Thus, if I'm wrong, I look stupid for a year, and if you're wrong, you look stupid for a year.
Sound fair?
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress
So, basically, because it's what you want to play, it must be good? Not even Conley Woods would make that assertion, and Conley Woods is a much better deckbuilder than you are. I think you need to look up the word "good", because you seem not to know what it means.
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
You're entitled to your opinion that you think the card is fun in the decks you like to play. However, there's a colossal difference between saying the card is "fun" and the card is "good". I can't argue with the former, but I sure as heck can tell argue with what you did, which is the latter.
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress
1.) It would see play as a Vengevine'ish flying 2/2, and if there is a discard outlet, then it would serve that purpose too.
2.) I never said it is better than Vengevine. I said it's easier to recur in the deck made to use it (you know..with infinite burn spells).
And I don't want you to look stupid. I want to see you go back on your word and say that this card is awesome down the line.
Infraction for spam and trolling.
Funny, I don't recall using that word, at least not in this thread. I haven't said anything other than express that I'm impressed with the card and would like to play it, and that mono-red decks in Standard with at least moderate amounts of success that don't go for super-fast kills do exist.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
'Nuff said.
As for your third comment, I definitely will go back on my word based on what else comes out in M12 and Innistrad block. If there is a good deck for it, then it will be a good card. If there is no good deck for it, it will not be a good card. However, historical trends state that decks that this card would be playable in will either use it as a Squee or will be bad decks. A 2/2 red flier for 3 has not been playable since Bird Maiden was a Tier 1 card. Red decks have typically been of the "play burn spells, kill you quickly, if we go to turn 5 I scoop" variety, and such decks do not want a 2/2 for 3 no matter what abilities it has.
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress
Problem is, such decks do not, in fact, exist. It's that "moderate amounts of success" thing. Yes, you can build a deck that starts with 4 Everflowing Chalice and ends with 4 Inferno Titan and 4 Volt Charge. The cards do exist. The deck, however, is not good, and only stands to become worse once Chalice rotates out.
Play (verb): Cast/Play
RFG: Exile
CIP: Enters the Battlefield
Fetchland: Arid Mesa
Shockland: Watery Grave
M10 Dual: Glacial Fortress
"easier to bring back" does not mean better.
As a card to card comparison, Vengevine is obviously superior in that it's bigger and doesn't need specific cards to bring back.
Phoenix however fits perfectly into a "burn you all day" deck.
Mono red can easily afford this, I'm sorry.
Good enough for me to consider playing it during the window of opportunity when M12 and Chalice are both legal together. But I have much lower standards than you, of course.
R Citizen Cane (Feldon of the Third Path)
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*cough* Kuldotha Phoenix *cough*
It will see play but so will Kuldotha Phoenix which is pretty damn easy to recur with Inkmoth Nexus and artifacts such as the Red Shrine. Patience is a virtue, right? ...and we're back to Surgical Extraction. Critical thinking FTW!
This card seems like it could already be started up in some brews. A midrange tempo deck with Sword of This or That would be really nice. Hasty recur-able guys at a reasonable cost with some of the nastiest equipment printed? I'm interested! This core set looks like it could be very interesting just based on some of changes and spoilers we've seen so far.
You can't even begin to compare Kuldotha Phoenix to this card. The difference between three and five mana is huge.
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Modern: U Merfolk (in progress)
Legacy: RBurn
This, and not only do you have to fill your deck with cards you may not want to be playing in order to play Kuldotha Phoenix (artifacts), but if you don't draw enough of them/your opponent gets rid of them, you don't get any value. With the new phoenix, you just have to play burn spells, which red decks want to do anyway, and you get value for days!
It's not a guarantee, but this duder certainly seems like he'll see play.
The fact that it has haste and evasion means it will nearly always be worth 2 damage, usually 4. I think that with the fact that it helps with the late game reach making every topdecked bolt or shock do 2 more damage makes this a pretty playable card. Time will tell of course, its all dependent on whether or not we get a good a mono red deck after rotation and what else is in the 3cc slot. Right now staggershock is seeing play in RDW, and both of these cards are 4 damage for 3 mana. Of course staggershock has the potential to clear up the board, but the phoenix also has the potential to do more than 4 damage.
RGStandard Gruul AggroRG
Lol. Try reading cards. So either a burn spell to the face and another 1RR for a 2/2 flying haste OR 4 generic & metal craft (which big red easily has especially w/ ink moth) for a 4/4 flying haste. Yeah, pretty sure they are comparable.
Kuldotha is everywhere in block constructed - it's pretty good ;).