Ok, first of all, Flame Wave was reprinted in 9th Edition, and isn't remotely obsolete in color pie terms. You want another example? How about Chandra Nalaar, which is not only in Lorwyn but is confirmed to be reprinted in M10.
Forgot Flame Wave was reprinted. But Flame Wave is 7 mana including a HEAVY red commitment, and Chandra is 5 mana but needs to sit on the board forever. This is an extremely rare effect for red to have, and it definitely fits all 3 colours.
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The only really disappointing thing about this card is that it's a Flame Wave that fails to 2 more protections. It would have been awesome to get something like 1 or 2+X, but that would be inelegant and possibly overpowered.
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Commander R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
Ok, first of all, Flame Wave was reprinted in 9th Edition, and isn't remotely obsolete in color pie terms. You want another example? How about Chandra Nalaar, which is not only in Lorwyn but is confirmed to be reprinted in M10.
EDIT: Sarnath'd. But still, none of your arguments are a compelling enough reason why monored shouldn't get this.
Let me also say that I perfectly undrestand this card in those three colors, since each of them have a history of doing parts of the card's effect. This is no Rhox War Monk. However, I think your argument that this effect couldn't (or shouldn't) be done in monored is moot.
Forgot Flame Wave was reprinted. But Flame Wave is 8 mana including a HEAVY red commitment, and Chandra is 5 mana but needs to sit on the board forever. This is an extremely rare effect for red to have, and it definitely fits all 3 colours.
Flame Wave is 7 mana, and this also costs 7 mana to do the same effect, although it's obviously a better card. The point about Chandra has nothing to do with the difficulty of pulling off the effect, it's that you don't need any color other than red to do it.
Yeah, it's an extremely rare effect for red to have, but you know what's even more rare? Putting on a non-red card - something that has happened exactly zero times, ever.
@ Ramenth: Yes, it works in red/green, but that's not the point. The point is that it also works in mono-red, so it has no reason to be red-green. Most of the cards you cited have specifically green abilities, except for Simoon.
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Flame Wave is 7 mana, and this also costs 7 mana to do the same effect, although it's obviously a better card. The point about Chandra has nothing to do with the difficulty of pulling off the effect, it's that you don't need any color other than red to do it.
Yeah, it's an extremely rare effect for red to have, but you know what's even more rare? Putting on a non-red card - something that has happened exactly zero times, ever.
Flame Wave is 7 mana, and this also costs 7 mana to do the same effect, although it's obviously a better card. The point about Chandra has nothing to do with the difficulty of pulling off the effect, it's that you don't need any color other than red to do it.
Yeah, it's an extremely rare effect for red to have, but you know what's even more rare? Putting on a non-red card - something that has happened exactly zero times, ever.
I hear the hallmark of good design is to refuse to do something that is perfectly reasonable according to the colour pie just because it hasn't been done before.
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@ Ramenth: Yes, it works in red/green, but that's not the point. The point is that it also works in mono-red, so it has no reason to be red-green. Most of the cards you cited have specifically green abilities, except for Simoon.
It has no reason not to be multicolor either. Jenara works fine as a Monowhite card, but she's not. Broodmate Dragon could be mono red. Rox Warmonk could be Mono-white, though it'd be insanely powerful if it was.
What you're forgetting is that almost every card can be monocolored. They're often not, however.
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Cyme we inne frið, fram the grip of deaþ to lif inne ðis smylte land.
so we agree it could be in a heavily saturated RRR card or also use help from other colors into a BRG card. obviously some decks would rather use a BRG. Plus this is a multi-colored block, so why shouldnt they print it?
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Broodmate Dragon doesn't need to be black - it combines a dagr0n with Ambassador Oak in a way, so green makes sense. But black? Why is Goblin Deathraiders black? 3/1s are very red, trample is rare is both colors, and of course rare in general on 2-drops. Why are Fire-field Ogre and Kederekt Creeper blue? There's absolutely nothing blue about the former, while in the latter one might aruge that "Goblin War Drums" is sorta blue (it's actually very red), but in that case it would get unblockable, period.
Not all cards need to typify effects in all their colors in this block as long as R&D wants to push down the CMC by making it more colors. As long as the card typifies the shard, it can get that shard's mana cost without having a damn thing about that particular color in the card. Note that this costs the same (CMC-wise) as Flame Wave to do 4 damage where most scalable effects cost way more than non-scalable ones.
Also, Flame Wave is a fine cite because it's in 9th edition; while you could say "Psionic Blast also was in Time Spiral, reprints don't count" it's quite clear that the Timeshifted set is what doesn't count. The better argument is the above: when it comes to all-shard-colors gold cards, things can bleed.
edit: slowly crafting a post in a fast-moving thread often leaves one far behind....
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Yes, really. Hurricane isn't the same thing. If you're going to stretch the comparison far enough to include Hurricane, then it isn't even a rare effect in the first place, and the other poster's argument is still moot.
Yes, global damage is red's thing. But it needs other colors to let it pick out 1 player.
Karma doesn't exist. You can't depend on it. If you count on it for justice or catharsis, you will find that you have placed your emotions on very unstable ground; and you will either repeat your disappointment in society over and over, or you will engage in a persistent delusion to protect yourself from that feeling.
@ Ramenth: Yes, it works in red/green, but that's not the point. The point is that it also works in mono-red, so it has no reason to be red-green.
It does have a reason: to cost less mana. This is a well-known reason to make a card multicolored - something that works on one or more colors by themselves, but gets to cost less by virtue of being multicolored, and thus harder to cast. Since this works in monored and has parts of it work on green and black, I see no reason why this card shouldn't be printed as is.
like I said before, this is no Rhox War Monk, where all but one colors are completely out of place.
It has no reason not to be multicolor either. Jenara works fine as a Monowhite card, but she's not. Broodmate Dragon could be mono red. Rox Warmonk could be Mono-white, though it'd be insanely powerful if it was.
What you're forgetting is that almost every card can be monocolored. They're often not, however.
You say I'm forgetting it, but in fact, it's the exact point that I'm citing in the first place! Just because a card can be multicolored doesn't mean it should be. The whole point of my complaint is that this card is "gold just to be gold," so I obviously haven't "forgotten" it.
@ RickCorgan: I agree that it isn't as egregious as Rhox War Monk, but that card is the perfect example of the problem with this block in the first place. You know, if the Monk had Flash instead of Lifelink, I wouldn't complain about it, just like I didn't complain about Watchwolf, because then it would be doing something that all of its colors do well. Lavalanche is a red card that has two other colors just so they have an excuse to fit it into this block. That's really lame. If they think it's a good design (and aside from its colors, I think it is), they should have just saved it for another set - this is the wrong place for it.
Karma doesn't exist. You can't depend on it. If you count on it for justice or catharsis, you will find that you have placed your emotions on very unstable ground; and you will either repeat your disappointment in society over and over, or you will engage in a persistent delusion to protect yourself from that feeling.
This card is a staple. I know this can go into Jund Mana Ramp as the prior card to a Broodmate finisher.
First of all, if X=4, this card can be used to finish off many decks, with the versatility that this deck and shard can run. Followed by a Guttural Response, this card rips through even a Mistbind Clique. Followed by a Terror or Wretched Banquet for those Burrenton Forge-Tenders, this can rip through Black-White Tokens AND Kithkin, and take their Planeswalker with them as well. Also, just this by itself can take out all the creatures that Dark Bant/Big Dude decks have to offer.
This won't revolutionize Standard so much, but it's cool, has flavor with its 'shard', and will be able to get a long-down under archetype back in the running at least. It's seriously not a bad card and deserves testing.
Yes, really. Hurricane isn't the same thing. If you're going to stretch the comparison far enough to include Hurricane, then it isn't even a rare effect in the first place, and the other poster's argument is still moot.
Chandra is a rare occurence, and allowable due to being in the first run of Planeswalkers. Weatherlight was, what, 13 years ago? Flame Wave too. Just because they reprint something iconic doesn't mean they would make another card like it.
This ability is a rare occurrence in the first place! Whenever it does happen, though, it is always red, and does not need any other color.
Weatherlight was, what, 13 years ago? Flame Wave too.
Flame Wave was reprinted more recently, but more to the point - do you actually think this ability has shifted in the color pie over the last 13 years? Is this a green ability now? Could they print this card in mono-green? No, right? Then it shouldn't be green at all, because no part of it requires green.
Just because they reprint something iconic doesn't mean they would make another card like it.
But it does mean that the ability on that card iconically belongs to that card's color.
I hear the hallmark of good design is to refuse to do something that is perfectly reasonable according to the colour pie just because it hasn't been done before.
Do you really think I'm arguing that this card shouldn't be green just because it hasn't been done before? When have I said anything even remotely close to that? It's like you're not even paying attention, and just making up something to argue against.
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Karma doesn't exist. You can't depend on it. If you count on it for justice or catharsis, you will find that you have placed your emotions on very unstable ground; and you will either repeat your disappointment in society over and over, or you will engage in a persistent delusion to protect yourself from that feeling.
Chandra is a rare occurence, and allowable due to being in the first run of Planeswalkers. Weatherlight was, what, 13 years ago?
Flame Wave too. Just because they reprint something iconic doesn't mean they would make another card like it.Please read the thread. Flame Wave was reprinted as recently as 9th edition,.
And your reasoning on Chandra doesn't hold. Planeswalkers on that first batch are meant to be iconic representations of their colors, and that's why none of their abilities (and certainly not Chandra's) are color pie stretches in any way.
Wizards is really pushing this Jund Mana Ramp deck. I wonder if we have enough x spells to use Roshean Meander now. I envision a Noble Heirarch/Birds of Paradise/Fertile Ground deck with some plainswalkers and then banefire/profane/lavalanche. Would it be fast enough? Sounds goofy...I kinda like the card though.
I sense much anger in here
Seriously, a multi-colored gold card doesn't need to express each of its colors. Most do in at least some way, but there are many examples of those that don't.
Yes this could be mono-red, but then it would cost something like XRRRR or more.
I don't see where people get the "This isn't multicolored" stuff from. Remember that multicolor doesn't mean "has elements of each of its component colors", all the time. It can also be a merging of the colors of something that conceptually fits with each of the colors in its cost. Note that this may not be a "RGB" card, but it certainly is a Jund card.
I also don't think this could be a mono-red card. Red doesn't conceptually do one-sided sweepers, it doesn't fit with the chaos element of red.
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Those are symmetrical though, and thus not the same as Flame Wave or Lavalanche.
Forgot Flame Wave was reprinted. But Flame Wave is 7 mana including a HEAVY red commitment, and Chandra is 5 mana but needs to sit on the board forever. This is an extremely rare effect for red to have, and it definitely fits all 3 colours.
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Commander
R Ashling, the Pilgrim Mono Red Wildfire Control
GBW Karador, Ghost Chieftain Abzan Dredge Rock
WBR Tariel, Reckoner of Souls Mardu Aggro-Reanimator Midrange
Savage Twister, Squall Line, Hurricane, Simoon, Jund Charm.
How does this effect not work in Red/Green?
Chandra Nalaar?
EDIT: Sarnath'd. But still, none of your arguments are a compelling enough reason why monored shouldn't get this.
Let me also say that I perfectly undrestand this card in those three colors, since each of them have a history of doing parts of the card's effect. This is no Rhox War Monk. However, I think your argument that this effect couldn't (or shouldn't) be done in monored is moot.
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Flame Wave is 7 mana, and this also costs 7 mana to do the same effect, although it's obviously a better card. The point about Chandra has nothing to do with the difficulty of pulling off the effect, it's that you don't need any color other than red to do it.
Yeah, it's an extremely rare effect for red to have, but you know what's even more rare? Putting on a non-red card - something that has happened exactly zero times, ever.
@ Ramenth: Yes, it works in red/green, but that's not the point. The point is that it also works in mono-red, so it has no reason to be red-green. Most of the cards you cited have specifically green abilities, except for Simoon.
About Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx:
Really?
Yes, global damage is red's thing. But it needs other colors to let it pick out 1 player.
I hear the hallmark of good design is to refuse to do something that is perfectly reasonable according to the colour pie just because it hasn't been done before.
Wizards could put $100 bills in packs and people would complain about how they were folded.
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It has no reason not to be multicolor either. Jenara works fine as a Monowhite card, but she's not. Broodmate Dragon could be mono red. Rox Warmonk could be Mono-white, though it'd be insanely powerful if it was.
What you're forgetting is that almost every card can be monocolored. They're often not, however.
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Sounds like a Yu-Go-Oh card name, or something...
I may be a fan and I may be a boy, but I am by no means a "fanboy."
Not all cards need to typify effects in all their colors in this block as long as R&D wants to push down the CMC by making it more colors. As long as the card typifies the shard, it can get that shard's mana cost without having a damn thing about that particular color in the card. Note that this costs the same (CMC-wise) as Flame Wave to do 4 damage where most scalable effects cost way more than non-scalable ones.
Also, Flame Wave is a fine cite because it's in 9th edition; while you could say "Psionic Blast also was in Time Spiral, reprints don't count" it's quite clear that the Timeshifted set is what doesn't count. The better argument is the above: when it comes to all-shard-colors gold cards, things can bleed.
edit: slowly crafting a post in a fast-moving thread often leaves one far behind....
Yes, really. Hurricane isn't the same thing. If you're going to stretch the comparison far enough to include Hurricane, then it isn't even a rare effect in the first place, and the other poster's argument is still moot.
Wrong. Wrong again. Wrong some more..
About Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx:
like I said before, this is no Rhox War Monk, where all but one colors are completely out of place.
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You say I'm forgetting it, but in fact, it's the exact point that I'm citing in the first place! Just because a card can be multicolored doesn't mean it should be. The whole point of my complaint is that this card is "gold just to be gold," so I obviously haven't "forgotten" it.
@ RickCorgan: I agree that it isn't as egregious as Rhox War Monk, but that card is the perfect example of the problem with this block in the first place. You know, if the Monk had Flash instead of Lifelink, I wouldn't complain about it, just like I didn't complain about Watchwolf, because then it would be doing something that all of its colors do well. Lavalanche is a red card that has two other colors just so they have an excuse to fit it into this block. That's really lame. If they think it's a good design (and aside from its colors, I think it is), they should have just saved it for another set - this is the wrong place for it.
About Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx:
First of all, if X=4, this card can be used to finish off many decks, with the versatility that this deck and shard can run. Followed by a Guttural Response, this card rips through even a Mistbind Clique. Followed by a Terror or Wretched Banquet for those Burrenton Forge-Tenders, this can rip through Black-White Tokens AND Kithkin, and take their Planeswalker with them as well. Also, just this by itself can take out all the creatures that Dark Bant/Big Dude decks have to offer.
This won't revolutionize Standard so much, but it's cool, has flavor with its 'shard', and will be able to get a long-down under archetype back in the running at least. It's seriously not a bad card and deserves testing.
Chandra is a rare occurence, and allowable due to being in the first run of Planeswalkers. Weatherlight was, what, 13 years ago? Flame Wave too. Just because they reprint something iconic doesn't mean they would make another card like it.
This ability is a rare occurrence in the first place! Whenever it does happen, though, it is always red, and does not need any other color.
Flame Wave was reprinted more recently, but more to the point - do you actually think this ability has shifted in the color pie over the last 13 years? Is this a green ability now? Could they print this card in mono-green? No, right? Then it shouldn't be green at all, because no part of it requires green.
But it does mean that the ability on that card iconically belongs to that card's color.
Do you really think I'm arguing that this card shouldn't be green just because it hasn't been done before? When have I said anything even remotely close to that? It's like you're not even paying attention, and just making up something to argue against.
About Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx:
And your reasoning on Chandra doesn't hold. Planeswalkers on that first batch are meant to be iconic representations of their colors, and that's why none of their abilities (and certainly not Chandra's) are color pie stretches in any way.
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This card looks really fun for multiplayer and a must have for mono-gold EDH.
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Seriously, a multi-colored gold card doesn't need to express each of its colors. Most do in at least some way, but there are many examples of those that don't.
Yes this could be mono-red, but then it would cost something like XRRRR or more.
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I also don't think this could be a mono-red card. Red doesn't conceptually do one-sided sweepers, it doesn't fit with the chaos element of red.