These are good points, all pushing away from them counting as a player.
However, what if they have life points anyway, and can be attacked as though they were a player? (With the possible idea of them using their life points to power their abilities)
It's possible. One of the things that separates Magic from other CCGs out there is that damage wears off at the end of the turn for non-players, though. I don't know if you've begun stepping into a separate realm when you start getting into "exhausting" (or whatever) a Planeswalker "ally".
you know whats messed up with giving them life points? a 2/4 creature can hold off a 3/3 creature all day, bvut a Planeswalker with 20 life....7 turns.\\\
odd something so powerful can be slain by something so minor and effectively for 3 mana. poor timmy.
You can be killed by a 3/3 in 7 turns too. 7 turns is a long time for a creature to kill something.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but what if the mechanic of Planeswalker is that, instead of adding a new player to your side, the Planeswalker takes your place?
For instance, you pay to put the Planeswalker into play by the mana cost and X amount of life. The Planeswalker takes your place. and starts with the X life. There it stays, like a Mindslaver'd player, until it is removed from play, or the Planeswalker zone, or whatever.
Planeswalkers are attacked and targetted as though they were the player. Their permanents are your permanents, their library is your library, etc...
In the end, I think it solves all the problems with treating Planeswalkers as players. The flavor is that you basically ask the Planeswalker for assistance for a short time. You can keep it to only one Planeswalker per side, and by having to "transfer" life points, it can keep you from throwing Planeswalkers up as continuous meat shields.
I think this is likely. Maybe wizards found a way to make Planeswalkers act like a second player that's nice and simple, but I still think all the ideas that have been put forth are too clunky and forced. I don't necessarily expect Planeswalkers to feel like a perfectly natural part of the game, but I still don't feel like a pseudoplayer is quite grokkable enough.
Also, even with its own mechanic, a planeswalker is still powerful. Just because they're being represented as something that's more than a normal creature doesn't explain why you can summon a being that's supposed to be as powerful as you are. Remember, Lilliana Vess costs 5 mana. That doesn't seem like much if she's a full-fledged planeswalker and you're calling her to do your bidding in the same way that you would a creature. That also hints that their effect can't be that huge. I'm pretty sure a 5-mana card isn't going to add a third player to the game or have as much life as a player.
The ideas that make the most sense to me is that you are either becoming the planeswalker you cast, which would hint at a sort of castable vanguard mechanic (although I'm curious about how they could do that in a way that couldn't have been done mechanically with an enchantment supertype), of that you're more just asking the planeswalker to help you out. Or that these are the new planeswalkers, similar to Rhada and Venser, which are weak enough to be summoned, and Wizards just decided that even though they are printable as creatures it would be cool to make them their own card type.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Life... is like a grapefruit. It's orange and squishy, has a few pips in it, and some folks have half a one for breakfast."
-Douglas Adams
If they can be targeted like a player, then they must have all aspects that a player has, otherwise you are left with too many unresolvable rules problems.
What about the CR416.3?
If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as much as possible.
Example: If a player is holding only one card, an effect that reads "Discard two cards" causes him or her to discard only that card. If an effect moves cards out of the library (as opposed to drawing), it moves as many as possible.
There *are* things, like mentioned later FoF which do behave weirdly, but that could be resolved in the same easy way as a necessary for playing most spells rule that if Planeswalker has to choose anything (targets, modes, CIP choices, you name it), instead player controlling it does. Of course, assuming Planeswalkers are treated as players or just can play cards -- which so far looks more like a realm of possible than of probable
So long as you incurred the costs I'd imagine she'd be okay with it.
The problem comes when you have R&D's Secret Lair on the board.
I hope that the GenCon announcement isn't some horribly vague statement, and that it actually answers something. I don't enjoy "big announcements" that don't actually announce anything.
So long as you incurred the costs I'd imagine she'd be okay with it.
The problem comes when you have R&D's Secret Lair on the board.
I hope that the GenCon announcement isn't some horribly vague statement, and that it actually answers something. I don't enjoy "big announcements" that don't actually announce anything.
We also are getting some sort of reveal tomorrow on the WoTC page.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
We also are getting some sort of reveal tomorrow on the WoTC page.
My guess is that the GenCon reveal and the MTG.com reveal are the same, if not on similar ground. After all, GenCon is not a HUGE con for MTG players typically, which is why we don't often see anything major there outside of some new art and vague articles in free magazines given to Con-goers, who are there to play Board Games and Role Play.
They actually seem like they are pushing MTG on a much heavier level this year for some reason, but realize that any big announcements would be lost until after con-goers head home. If they want a proper buzz, they can't depend on Con-goers to rush to an internet connection and inform the masses, many of whom either won't care about MTG, or won't have any way to log on unless they carry a laptop around religiously like I do.
My guess is that the GenCon reveal and the MTG.com reveal are the same, if not on similar ground. After all, GenCon is not a HUGE con for MTG players typically, which is why we don't often see anything major there outside of some new art and vague articles in free magazines given to Con-goers, who are there to play Board Games and Role Play.
They actually seem like they are pushing MTG on a much heavier level this year for some reason, but realize that any big announcements would be lost until after con-goers head home. If they want a proper buzz, they can't depend on Con-goers to rush to an internet connection and inform the masses, many of whom either won't care about MTG, or won't have any way to log on unless they carry a laptop around religiously like I do.
-beat me to it.
I was wondering if we'd heard anything on whether they were going to be similar announcements or not. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a transcript of the announcement from GenCon in the Magic Arcana section.
I agree about Wizards pushing Magic more heavily. I think it's more apparent to us because they are trying new ways of marketing it (gleemax ARG, ad cards in packs, etc.)
@ngrave - I know it's a long thread, but when you get a chance take a look at post 86
I was wondering if we'd heard anything on whether they were going to be similar announcements or not. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a transcript of the announcement from GenCon in the Magic Arcana section.
We know that it's the Feature Article for the week, and Rosewater said that it was getting posted on Thursday -- in MTG.com site-speak, that means tonight at midnight. My guess is that it is indeed the reveal of the planeswalker type, and it does indeed go into the same detail that the display at the GenCon booth does.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
It's possible. One of the things that separates Magic from other CCGs out there is that damage wears off at the end of the turn for non-players, though. I don't know if you've begun stepping into a separate realm when you start getting into "exhausting" (or whatever) a Planeswalker "ally".
-E
You can be killed by a 3/3 in 7 turns too. 7 turns is a long time for a creature to kill something.
I think this is likely. Maybe wizards found a way to make Planeswalkers act like a second player that's nice and simple, but I still think all the ideas that have been put forth are too clunky and forced. I don't necessarily expect Planeswalkers to feel like a perfectly natural part of the game, but I still don't feel like a pseudoplayer is quite grokkable enough.
Also, even with its own mechanic, a planeswalker is still powerful. Just because they're being represented as something that's more than a normal creature doesn't explain why you can summon a being that's supposed to be as powerful as you are. Remember, Lilliana Vess costs 5 mana. That doesn't seem like much if she's a full-fledged planeswalker and you're calling her to do your bidding in the same way that you would a creature. That also hints that their effect can't be that huge. I'm pretty sure a 5-mana card isn't going to add a third player to the game or have as much life as a player.
The ideas that make the most sense to me is that you are either becoming the planeswalker you cast, which would hint at a sort of castable vanguard mechanic (although I'm curious about how they could do that in a way that couldn't have been done mechanically with an enchantment supertype), of that you're more just asking the planeswalker to help you out. Or that these are the new planeswalkers, similar to Rhada and Venser, which are weak enough to be summoned, and Wizards just decided that even though they are printable as creatures it would be cool to make them their own card type.
-Douglas Adams
What about the CR416.3? There *are* things, like mentioned later FoF which do behave weirdly, but that could be resolved in the same easy way as a necessary for playing most spells rule that if Planeswalker has to choose anything (targets, modes, CIP choices, you name it), instead player controlling it does. Of course, assuming Planeswalkers are treated as players or just can play cards -- which so far looks more like a realm of possible than of probable
So long as you incurred the costs I'd imagine she'd be okay with it.
The problem comes when you have R&D's Secret Lair on the board.
I hope that the GenCon announcement isn't some horribly vague statement, and that it actually answers something. I don't enjoy "big announcements" that don't actually announce anything.
We also are getting some sort of reveal tomorrow on the WoTC page.
Twitter
...for quite some time already. I believe it was there since Tarmogoyf came out.
My guess is that the GenCon reveal and the MTG.com reveal are the same, if not on similar ground. After all, GenCon is not a HUGE con for MTG players typically, which is why we don't often see anything major there outside of some new art and vague articles in free magazines given to Con-goers, who are there to play Board Games and Role Play.
They actually seem like they are pushing MTG on a much heavier level this year for some reason, but realize that any big announcements would be lost until after con-goers head home. If they want a proper buzz, they can't depend on Con-goers to rush to an internet connection and inform the masses, many of whom either won't care about MTG, or won't have any way to log on unless they carry a laptop around religiously like I do.
-beat me to it.
I was wondering if we'd heard anything on whether they were going to be similar announcements or not. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just a transcript of the announcement from GenCon in the Magic Arcana section.
I agree about Wizards pushing Magic more heavily. I think it's more apparent to us because they are trying new ways of marketing it (gleemax ARG, ad cards in packs, etc.)
@ngrave - I know it's a long thread, but when you get a chance take a look at post 86
We know that it's the Feature Article for the week, and Rosewater said that it was getting posted on Thursday -- in MTG.com site-speak, that means tonight at midnight. My guess is that it is indeed the reveal of the planeswalker type, and it does indeed go into the same detail that the display at the GenCon booth does.