The "hate" is because MTGO has cost at least one cycle of cards with an unknown mechanic. Without knowing how good or fun this mechanic is, we can only assume it was awesome. And thus, the hate.
Far more cycles of hypothetical cards are lost to mtgo users because R&D *still* have to pander to people buying offline cardboard proxys for mtgo cards. Rules cannot be enforced based on knowledge of private zones, random variables are limited to coin flips and card draw, over restrictive limitations on how long the game state can 'remember' things not denoted by counters or tokens, avoidance of mechanics that would require too much busy work such as counting cards etc etc
I do, mostly becuase I already spend 1,000s on REAL cards, and spending even 100s on fake cards that I have no real control over just doesnt tickle my fancy. (ie, see the guy that had his entire collection hacked, and WoTC basically told him your crap out of luck)
This bothers me. How is an item on MTGO any less real then a paper card? If you want it on paper just print your own, works just as well. What? That isn't acceptable? Why not? Because it isn't a recognized object supported by wizards? But... All the items on MTGO are and you don't like them...
As for "no real control", I wonder what you mean by that? Do you mean you worry that MTGO will die and you'll be out of luck? That is about as likely as Wizards themselves going under which would do the same to your "real" cards anyhow... (Without official support what is the difference between those cards and ones you make yourself?)
As for the stolen accout, why is that wizard's problem? Do you expect them to replace paper cards that where stolen from you at an event/from your home? I hope not. This is exactly the same. The problem is between you and the culprit, not the creator.
Personally, I think it would be VASTLY more successful and probably even more profitable if they just charged a flat monthly rate and gave you access to all the cards from the start. I know I would personally be on MTGO in almost all my spare time then.
Can you imagine the thriving community that would create? Peple that dont play MTG becuase of its prohibitive (for competitive decks at least) price tag would play this in a heart beat.
But oh well, its a pipe dream that wont ever happen.
As you just said, people find it costly to get the cards (which is why you want the monthly rate), what does that tell you about the money they are making? And a monthly rate would make them more? I think not. Also it would hurt the "collectability" of the cards which for some reason they still support. I personally think they should print all the cards all the time but the uproar about plummeting lotus prices would be killer. Are you in favor of this? The same idea applies to online cards.
MTGO isn't going to change and it will still make them a ton of money. I may not like it but I don't like many buisnesses so....
I for one never heard their side of the story. I don't believe everything I hear.
I don't think there is much to tell. An account was hacked, the player got a bit of publicity on some sites (and even from wizards themselves), public sympathy said Wizards should give him replacements which, of course, they did not. I doubt they where cruel about it but no is still no.
I do, mostly becuase I already spend 1,000s on REAL cards, and spending even 100s on fake cards that I have no real control over just doesnt tickle my fancy.
Yeah, I know the feeling. I know a guy who has his paychecks direct deposited to his checking account. I tried to explain to him that he was only getting paid in FAKE money, since it's all just bits on some bank's server somewhere. I refuse that crap, and other junk like those so called "checks". I only allow myself to get paid in REAL money, the green papery cloth kind. After all, it's the papery cloth that makes money real. Sure he claims he can purchase goods and services with his so called FAKE money, but I know if all the banks collapse then he'll be screwed, but my coffee cans of $20s buried in the backyard will still be worth every penny, even in the case of total economic collapse because it's the ink on paper that's inherently valuable.
(ie, see the guy that had his entire collection hacked, and WoTC basically told him your crap out of luck)
If I get my backpack full of cards stolen from me what are the odds of WoTC mailing me a set of replacements.
No one has ever gotten their cards hacked in a literal sense (i.e. someone bypassing security directly into the MTGO servers and somehow deprived you of cards, or acquired your login info directly). What people who claim they got "hacked" mean is that someone somehow got their account info, and logged into their account and stole their cards. Usually it's because they gave out their info to someone they trusted but shouldn't have, they get tricked into revealing their account info (say from a fake customer service e-mail), or (most rarely) if someone is infected with an existing computer virus/trojan of some sort that allows an interloper access to their information.
In 100% of these cases it's the account holder that failed to secure themselves, and it would be the equivalent of leaving a backpack full of cards sitting on a table unwatched for whatever reason, only to have it stolen.
The fact of the matter is, percentage wise, far more paper magic players have had cards stolen from them then MTGO players. So if you are hoping to keep your cards safe, you should be praising MTGO not burying it.
I for one never heard their side of the story. I don't believe everything I hear.
Good. It's a wise idea not to believe everything you hear. But don't assume that healthy skeptisicm equates to ignoring the facts. WoTC did almost nothing for Felix. That is a fact. Thus, no matter what they could have said in their defence, they're in the wrong.
Edit: For what it's worth, It's easy to brute-force an MTGO account. I brute-forced my own last year as a project for a CS class.
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Can you imagine the thriving community that would create? Peple that dont play MTG becuase of its prohibitive (for competitive decks at least) price tag would play this in a heart beat.
But oh well, its a pipe dream that wont ever happen.
Seeing as most people currently playing MTGO would drop out if a monthly fee were ever implemented, you are probably right. MTGO, in general, is actually much cheaper than paper to play.
Far more cycles of hypothetical cards are lost to mtgo users because R&D *still* have to pander to people buying offline cardboard proxys for mtgo cards. Rules cannot be enforced based on knowledge of private zones, random variables are limited to coin flips and card draw, over restrictive limitations on how long the game state can 'remember' things not denoted by counters or tokens, avoidance of mechanics that would require too much busy work such as counting cards etc etc
The problem here is that when MTGO was released, Wizards specifically said that it would have no affect on R&D for the paper version. Not the other way around.
Oh? I untap with my Djinn in play? Then I'll cast High Tide 5 times, let the copies resolve, cast Remand 3 times, the first and second targetting the original High Tide, and the third targetting the first Remand. After the stack empties, I'll cast a Turnabout with 1 replicate, and triple-remand again. Net Effect: Draw 4 cards, Islands all produce 4 extra blue, lands untapped. Repeat until I draw Vision Charm and proceed to deck several hundred players.
For those going back and forth about the 'loss of account' stuff, if you've taken every precaution and someone goes out of their way to hack your account, WotC will work with you to get your cards back (the person you're thinking of is Felix Leong). For reference, here's his thread on the MTGO boards (post #1 contains the story, post #192 contains the update) Thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=723914
Both of which were cases of the user being hacked (and not giving out their password or whatever), and in both of those cases WotC worked with them to get as many cards back as they could...
Far more than they actually would need to do, but they did it anyway.
Just thought I'd bring some actual facts to the discussion about WotC not caring about MTGO collections..
Anyway, the newest round of V3 Beta should be starting today. I hope that everyone who wants in gets an invite!
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MTGO Writer and Epic Time-Waster.
If you have questions about MTGO PM me, I'm all up ons, as it were.
Check out my articles on http://puremtgo.com/ I'm the nerd you see there... wait, not that one. Nope, not that one either... yeah. That one.
The problem here is that when MTGO was released, Wizards specifically said that it would have no affect on R&D for the paper version. Not the other way around.
This is true, but I do not think too many people believed it. Juggernaut was on the reserved list at one time, after all. They also said they would never create a card that was functionally identical to an another card with a different cost, and they have since done that repeatedly.
Most people I know that play Magic expected this would happen some day, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that this was not the first time it has happened. I had to admire their guts for admitting it, actually. And what is the big deal as it is? MTGO is a real product. Being a video game, it cannot simulate every nuance of real life play. It can, however, offer any card available to paper users. They would lose considerable credibility if they let that go and told MTGO users "sorry."
Considering what does get out the door, this is just not as important to me as it was at the time I abandoned the beta in disgust and sold all my cards. During the beta, the viability of the online game was in question - I admit I had plenty of doubts myself. Well it's been about 5 years now and the popularity is increasing. They have created a Digital games department with RaBu leading the way. So I'll bet that at least one additional time, a mechanic will be killed because it cannot be programmed in MTGO, and has been mentioned already, countless other mechanics that would work beautifully in MTGO will fail because they will not work in paper.
Being a video game, it cannot simulate every nuance of real life play. It can, however, offer any card available to paper users. They would lose considerable credibility if they let that go and told MTGO users "sorry."
I disagree with you there. I think that if Wizards decided to take the paper and online version in different directions, it would help them explore their ideas to a better degree. Inevitably in such a case, the majority of players would shift to whichever has had the strongest (or most interesting?) set released, but I don't think this would be a problem. Even I, who maintain a grudge against the online version, would shift to it if it were given what I thought was a better set. Whether or not I would still maintain my grudge, though? Moot point.
EDIT: Nevermind, that whole thing sounded like crap. Wizards can't go in two different directions, it'll end up leaving one of the versions in the dust, probably permanently.
Oh? I untap with my Djinn in play? Then I'll cast High Tide 5 times, let the copies resolve, cast Remand 3 times, the first and second targetting the original High Tide, and the third targetting the first Remand. After the stack empties, I'll cast a Turnabout with 1 replicate, and triple-remand again. Net Effect: Draw 4 cards, Islands all produce 4 extra blue, lands untapped. Repeat until I draw Vision Charm and proceed to deck several hundred players.
Seeing as most people currently playing MTGO would drop out if a monthly fee were ever implemented, you are probably right. MTGO, in general, is actually much cheaper than paper to play.
I can still get a pack of cards locally for 2.50$-3.00$, and get in on a draft for between 8$ and 9$- that's one of my two problems with playing online. I'd much rather they remove the redemption option and drop their prices. Packs went up in price to cover rising costs; costs they don't have to deal with when distributing their own digital product.
/begin Rant
The second being the interaction online- people don't feel the need to be civil, or frequently even interact with you during an online game. Honestly, the last thing i need during my leisure time is to be verbally abused by some faceless 12 year old kid. I like the interaction with other people too much to get into playing online too heavily. The dark truth about the online version is that you only get to play against your opponent's skill, and not your opponent.
You really can't avoid the fact that the phisical game is so much deeper. Setting aside entirely the larger card pool- I know my style and behavior changes slightly depending on who sits across the table from me. I'll play differently against a 16 year old boy than i will a 7 year old girl. A pretty girl sits across from me and I'm into a completely different battle of wills. I once got my butt handed to me by a kid with downs syndrome- because I underestimated him. That would never have happened online.
In a physical game, i can keep two cards in my hand, stack a few islands together a little to the left and create entire worlds of illusions. I can even carry a vial of 'holy water' and bless the table, just to freak people out. I gain the weakness of my tells. I have to make sure my opponent isn't cheating. I have to keep track of more. I have to understand rules interactions.
In my opinion playing online takes the game from being an Art to being a Science. And that just dosen't interest me as much. I've had experiences in real life that i could never have online. I've met lifelong friends, started relationships, and even bought a car once based on the social interaction that comes with the phisical game.
That being said- yea, i play online sometimes. Sometimes i feel the need for a draft at 3 a.m. Sometimes it's raining cats and dogs out there, and i just don't feel like leaving the house. So, yea, it's more convenient. But porn is convenient. Has my heart ever tried to pound out of my chest during an online match? No. Has an online draft ever cascaded into an all night party at a local club? Not in my experience. Can you simulate something quite dirty between Rayne and a pile of goblin tokens to leave your opponents and onlookers practically rolling on the floor with laughter? Oh, definately not.
Okay, i could keep yapping but i'll stop now. All in all, i'm looking forward to Online 3, but i still don't have any real faith in the online play. It's just not as fun for me. /end Rant
I can still get a pack of cards locally for 2.50$-3.00$, and get in on a draft for between 8$ and 9$- that's one of my two problems with playing online. I'd much rather they remove the redemption option and drop their prices. Packs went up in price to cover rising costs; costs they don't have to deal with when distributing their own digital product.
/begin Rant
The second being the interaction online- people don't feel the need to be civil, or frequently even interact with you during an online game. Honestly, the last thing i need during my leisure time is to be verbally abused by some faceless 12 year old kid. I like the interaction with other people too much to get into playing online too heavily. The dark truth about the online version is that you only get to play against your opponent's skill, and not your opponent.
You really can't avoid the fact that the phisical game is so much deeper. Setting aside entirely the larger card pool- I know my style and behavior changes slightly depending on who sits across the table from me. I'll play differently against a 16 year old boy than i will a 7 year old girl. A pretty girl sits across from me and I'm into a completely different battle of wills. I once got my butt handed to me by a kid with downs syndrome- because I underestimated him. That would never have happened online.
In a physical game, i can keep two cards in my hand, stack a few islands together a little to the left and create entire worlds of illusions. I can even carry a vial of 'holy water' and bless the table, just to freak people out. I gain the weakness of my tells. I have to make sure my opponent isn't cheating. I have to keep track of more. I have to understand rules interactions.
In my opinion playing online takes the game from being an Art to being a Science. And that just dosen't interest me as much. I've had experiences in real life that i could never have online. I've met lifelong friends, started relationships, and even bought a car once based on the social interaction that comes with the phisical game.
That being said- yea, i play online sometimes. Sometimes i feel the need for a draft at 3 a.m. Sometimes it's raining cats and dogs out there, and i just don't feel like leaving the house. So, yea, it's more convenient. But porn is convenient. Has my heart ever tried to pound out of my chest during an online match? No. Has an online draft ever cascaded into an all night party at a local club? Not in my experience. Can you simulate something quite dirty between Rayne and a pile of goblin tokens to leave your opponents and onlookers practically rolling on the floor with laughter? Oh, definately not.
Okay, i could keep yapping but i'll stop now. All in all, i'm looking forward to Online 3, but i still don't have any real faith in the online play. It's just not as fun for me. /end Rant
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
Oh? I untap with my Djinn in play? Then I'll cast High Tide 5 times, let the copies resolve, cast Remand 3 times, the first and second targetting the original High Tide, and the third targetting the first Remand. After the stack empties, I'll cast a Turnabout with 1 replicate, and triple-remand again. Net Effect: Draw 4 cards, Islands all produce 4 extra blue, lands untapped. Repeat until I draw Vision Charm and proceed to deck several hundred players.
I can still get a pack of cards locally for 2.50$-3.00$, and get in on a draft for between 8$ and 9$- that's one of my two problems with playing online. I'd much rather they remove the redemption option and drop their prices. Packs went up in price to cover rising costs; costs they don't have to deal with when distributing their own digital product.
/begin Rant
The second being the interaction online- people don't feel the need to be civil, or frequently even interact with you during an online game. Honestly, the last thing i need during my leisure time is to be verbally abused by some faceless 12 year old kid. I like the interaction with other people too much to get into playing online too heavily. The dark truth about the online version is that you only get to play against your opponent's skill, and not your opponent.
You really can't avoid the fact that the phisical game is so much deeper. Setting aside entirely the larger card pool- I know my style and behavior changes slightly depending on who sits across the table from me. I'll play differently against a 16 year old boy than i will a 7 year old girl. A pretty girl sits across from me and I'm into a completely different battle of wills. I once got my butt handed to me by a kid with downs syndrome- because I underestimated him. That would never have happened online.
In a physical game, i can keep two cards in my hand, stack a few islands together a little to the left and create entire worlds of illusions. I can even carry a vial of 'holy water' and bless the table, just to freak people out. I gain the weakness of my tells. I have to make sure my opponent isn't cheating. I have to keep track of more. I have to understand rules interactions.
In my opinion playing online takes the game from being an Art to being a Science. And that just dosen't interest me as much. I've had experiences in real life that i could never have online. I've met lifelong friends, started relationships, and even bought a car once based on the social interaction that comes with the phisical game.
That being said- yea, i play online sometimes. Sometimes i feel the need for a draft at 3 a.m. Sometimes it's raining cats and dogs out there, and i just don't feel like leaving the house. So, yea, it's more convenient. But porn is convenient. Has my heart ever tried to pound out of my chest during an online match? No. Has an online draft ever cascaded into an all night party at a local club? Not in my experience. Can you simulate something quite dirty between Rayne and a pile of goblin tokens to leave your opponents and onlookers practically rolling on the floor with laughter? Oh, definately not.
Okay, i could keep yapping but i'll stop now. All in all, i'm looking forward to Online 3, but i still don't have any real faith in the online play. It's just not as fun for me. /end Rant
This doesn't have a lot to do with my post that you quoted BTW. We all have individual values that we apply when we decide how important something is to each of us. My Magic circle disintigrated somewhere during Mirage. MTGO meets my requirements for playing Magic. My other social needs and wants are met well outside of the game. For reference, here is what the post was. It is absolutely true. Try building a collection and you will see how dirt cheap most of the cards are. The prices are actually a major topic of discussion on the official boards.
Originally Posted by Unused Nickname Seeing as most people currently playing MTGO would drop out if a monthly fee were ever implemented, you are probably right. MTGO, in general, is actually much cheaper than paper to play.
For those going back and forth about the 'loss of account' stuff, if you've taken every precaution and someone goes out of their way to hack your account, WotC will work with you to get your cards back (the person you're thinking of is Felix Leong). For reference, here's his thread on the MTGO boards (post #1 contains the story, post #192 contains the update) Thread: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=723914
Both of which were cases of the user being hacked (and not giving out their password or whatever), and in both of those cases WotC worked with them to get as many cards back as they could...
Far more than they actually would need to do, but they did it anyway.
Just thought I'd bring some actual facts to the discussion about WotC not caring about MTGO collections..
Anyway, the newest round of V3 Beta should be starting today. I hope that everyone who wants in gets an invite!
Really? Well then they did far more then I would of expected.
Really? Well then they did far more then I would of expected.
Wizards actually impressed me... Scary.
~Nim
Doesnt for me, notice the stipulation, as many as they could.
weak.
They know what you had, and if they dont, creating a snap shot of everyones collection as they sign out and saving those for a month and rotating them would solve that isssue.
The fact they cant give you back all your fake, replicated at a touch of a button product makes me unable to dump more then a trivial amount of money into it.
If I do everything in my power to keep hackers out of my collection, and they still do, I fully expect them to give me my entire collection back, pending thier own investigation of course. Im not a turd.
I only go on it now to watch games in the competitive room, I find a deck that looks good and I follow him around writing the cards down, outside of that, not my cup of tea.
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
I did notice. I fully expected them to do nothing at all (and I have a fair collection myself, so it's not an "Oh it dosen't effect me" thing).
As for saving a screen shot as you leave, that isn't exactly a trival thing for them to do (keeping that amount of data is a fairly large feat). On the other hand, you could keep a screen shot yourself and then show it to them if it bothered you that much.
Just giveing things away whenever someone says "I lost this" however, in my opinion, would lead to far too many scams, which is why I thought they would keep a hard line "do nothing at all" attitude.
I dunno, last time I went to do a draft in real life it was mostly annoying 15-18 year old kids. I'm 25, i'm far too old to be hanging around card shops. Online game for me.
I can still get a pack of cards locally for 2.50$-3.00$, and get in on a draft for between 8$ and 9$- that's one of my two problems with playing online. I'd much rather they remove the redemption option and drop their prices. Packs went up in price to cover rising costs; costs they don't have to deal with when distributing their own digital product.
/begin Rant
The second being the interaction online- people don't feel the need to be civil, or frequently even interact with you during an online game. Honestly, the last thing i need during my leisure time is to be verbally abused by some faceless 12 year old kid. I like the interaction with other people too much to get into playing online too heavily. The dark truth about the online version is that you only get to play against your opponent's skill, and not your opponent.
You really can't avoid the fact that the phisical game is so much deeper. Setting aside entirely the larger card pool- I know my style and behavior changes slightly depending on who sits across the table from me. I'll play differently against a 16 year old boy than i will a 7 year old girl. A pretty girl sits across from me and I'm into a completely different battle of wills. I once got my butt handed to me by a kid with downs syndrome- because I underestimated him. That would never have happened online.
In a physical game, i can keep two cards in my hand, stack a few islands together a little to the left and create entire worlds of illusions. I can even carry a vial of 'holy water' and bless the table, just to freak people out. I gain the weakness of my tells. I have to make sure my opponent isn't cheating. I have to keep track of more. I have to understand rules interactions.
In my opinion playing online takes the game from being an Art to being a Science. And that just dosen't interest me as much. I've had experiences in real life that i could never have online. I've met lifelong friends, started relationships, and even bought a car once based on the social interaction that comes with the phisical game.
That being said- yea, i play online sometimes. Sometimes i feel the need for a draft at 3 a.m. Sometimes it's raining cats and dogs out there, and i just don't feel like leaving the house. So, yea, it's more convenient. But porn is convenient. Has my heart ever tried to pound out of my chest during an online match? No. Has an online draft ever cascaded into an all night party at a local club? Not in my experience. Can you simulate something quite dirty between Rayne and a pile of goblin tokens to leave your opponents and onlookers practically rolling on the floor with laughter? Oh, definately not.
Okay, i could keep yapping but i'll stop now. All in all, i'm looking forward to Online 3, but i still don't have any real faith in the online play. It's just not as fun for me. /end Rant
Im 22, I don't need to go to a game store to play games against players who don't know the rules. I don't like the arguing with judges who the majority of them they are questionable with rules questions. You touched on many things of why I think the online game is better.
1) I don't have to play people who stack their lands so you can't tell whats untapped and what is.
2) I don't have to play a kid with BO and talks like a "nerd"
3) I don't have to worry about my vintage cards getting stolen.
4) I don't have to explain to a judge how to do his job.(i live in a "small" area and i'm like the most hardcore magic player left in town)
5) the "social" atmosphere of smelly kids saying "i'm rick james *****" gets old real fast and its hard to concentrate on actually playing the game.
you mention that there isn't a "social" aspect to mtgo. you should play with a decent sized clan. we have our own room we make our own tournaments and its fun to play with them. My group of friends can't get together everyweek. we don't have the time. .its nice to just go into the clan room and chat it up with people who aren't going to judge you or whatever.
the main advantage you don't have to play in a card store.. if you want to look at porn and own some noobs you can do that. the best advantage for me is listening to some prog rock and doing a sealed event on my day off (which happen to be mondays and wednesdays.. where else can you do that?)
all i'm saying is.. while pack prices may be cheaper.. you can easily get rav block draft where its more difficult to do that in paper.. and you can't do it whenever you want..
mtgo is for players who want to PLAY.. not worry about all the other things.
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
That's hardly true. MTGO has just as many horrible issues as playing in a card shop. This issues are just different. Yeah, you dont have to deal with BO or the like, but you do have to deal with a far higher number of idiots, a clunky interface which makes it easy to make mistakes you'd never make in paper magic, and a much worse social grouping for the most part.
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Cyme we inne frið, fram the grip of deaþ to lif inne ðis smylte land.
the interaction online- people don't feel the need to be civil, or frequently even interact with you during an online game. Honestly, the last thing i need during my leisure time is to be verbally abused by some faceless 12 year old kid.
The last thing I need is to be verbally abused by some 12 year-old period right to my face. Have you actually spoken to children today? The internet generation doesn't care whether you are thre or not - they are rude.
Online, the block button is far more effective at ignoring whomever I want.
I like the interaction with other people too much to get into playing online too heavily. The dark truth about the online version is that you only get to play against your opponent's skill, and not your opponent.
You really can't avoid the fact that the phisical game is so much deeper. Setting aside entirely the larger card pool- I know my style and behavior changes slightly depending on who sits across the table from me. I'll play differently against a 16 year old boy than i will a 7 year old girl. A pretty girl sits across from me and I'm into a completely different battle of wills. I once got my butt handed to me by a kid with downs syndrome- because I underestimated him. That would never have happened online.
All those things sounds like reasons NOT to play in person to me, especially in a tourney environment, where those kind of distractions are not really welcome. In a casual environment, you may want the opposite.
In a physical game, i can keep two cards in my hand, stack a few islands together a little to the left and create entire worlds of illusions. I can even carry a vial of 'holy water' and bless the table, just to freak people out. I gain the weakness of my tells. I have to make sure my opponent isn't cheating. I have to keep track of more. I have to understand rules interactions.
Again, those are the kinds of thins many people DON'T want to have to deal with. Why would you WANT to have to keep track of things? Why would you want to have to figure out minor and annoying rules interactions? THose all sound like things you thikngive you an advantage over most people. In which case, most people don't want you to have them, and will gravitate online.
In my opinion playing online takes the game from being an Art to being a Science. And that just dosen't interest me as much. I've had experiences in real life that i could never have online. I've met lifelong friends, started relationships, and even bought a car once based on the social interaction that comes with the phisical game.
And I've made friends online. In fact, despite the fact that I've never seen their faces and shook their hands, I've gone so far as to lend my clanmates hundreds of dollars worth of cards just to play in tourneys.
I've gotten job offers and met people from across the globe with different world views. This is not something that happens when you play the same 25 people at the local store for a decade.
That being said- yea, i play online sometimes. Sometimes i feel the need for a draft at 3 a.m. Sometimes it's raining cats and dogs out there, and i just don't feel like leaving the house. So, yea, it's more convenient. But porn is convenient. Has my heart ever tried to pound out of my chest during an online match? No. Has an online draft ever cascaded into an all night party at a local club? Not in my experience. Can you simulate something quite dirty between Rayne and a pile of goblin tokens to leave your opponents and onlookers practically rolling on the floor with laughter? Oh, definately not.
Okay, i could keep yapping but i'll stop now. All in all, i'm looking forward to Online 3, but i still don't have any real faith in the online play. It's just not as fun for me. /end Rant
Just because your experience with MTGO hasn't equalled what you you've experienced in paper doesn't actually mean that one is a better experience than other. It sounds much more like you put a lot more into your paper experience than you ever bothered to put into the online one.
I do. It's a terrible program, but WotC's corporate support gives it an enviroment workstation won't ever match. That's why I stay on modo.
Far more cycles of hypothetical cards are lost to mtgo users because R&D *still* have to pander to people buying offline cardboard proxys for mtgo cards. Rules cannot be enforced based on knowledge of private zones, random variables are limited to coin flips and card draw, over restrictive limitations on how long the game state can 'remember' things not denoted by counters or tokens, avoidance of mechanics that would require too much busy work such as counting cards etc etc
This bothers me. How is an item on MTGO any less real then a paper card? If you want it on paper just print your own, works just as well. What? That isn't acceptable? Why not? Because it isn't a recognized object supported by wizards? But... All the items on MTGO are and you don't like them...
As for "no real control", I wonder what you mean by that? Do you mean you worry that MTGO will die and you'll be out of luck? That is about as likely as Wizards themselves going under which would do the same to your "real" cards anyhow... (Without official support what is the difference between those cards and ones you make yourself?)
As for the stolen accout, why is that wizard's problem? Do you expect them to replace paper cards that where stolen from you at an event/from your home? I hope not. This is exactly the same. The problem is between you and the culprit, not the creator.
As you just said, people find it costly to get the cards (which is why you want the monthly rate), what does that tell you about the money they are making? And a monthly rate would make them more? I think not. Also it would hurt the "collectability" of the cards which for some reason they still support. I personally think they should print all the cards all the time but the uproar about plummeting lotus prices would be killer. Are you in favor of this? The same idea applies to online cards.
MTGO isn't going to change and it will still make them a ton of money. I may not like it but I don't like many buisnesses so....
~Nim
I for one never heard their side of the story. I don't believe everything I hear.
I don't think there is much to tell. An account was hacked, the player got a bit of publicity on some sites (and even from wizards themselves), public sympathy said Wizards should give him replacements which, of course, they did not. I doubt they where cruel about it but no is still no.
I think that is all there is to say...
~Nim
Yeah, I know the feeling. I know a guy who has his paychecks direct deposited to his checking account. I tried to explain to him that he was only getting paid in FAKE money, since it's all just bits on some bank's server somewhere. I refuse that crap, and other junk like those so called "checks". I only allow myself to get paid in REAL money, the green papery cloth kind. After all, it's the papery cloth that makes money real. Sure he claims he can purchase goods and services with his so called FAKE money, but I know if all the banks collapse then he'll be screwed, but my coffee cans of $20s buried in the backyard will still be worth every penny, even in the case of total economic collapse because it's the ink on paper that's inherently valuable.
If I get my backpack full of cards stolen from me what are the odds of WoTC mailing me a set of replacements.
No one has ever gotten their cards hacked in a literal sense (i.e. someone bypassing security directly into the MTGO servers and somehow deprived you of cards, or acquired your login info directly). What people who claim they got "hacked" mean is that someone somehow got their account info, and logged into their account and stole their cards. Usually it's because they gave out their info to someone they trusted but shouldn't have, they get tricked into revealing their account info (say from a fake customer service e-mail), or (most rarely) if someone is infected with an existing computer virus/trojan of some sort that allows an interloper access to their information.
In 100% of these cases it's the account holder that failed to secure themselves, and it would be the equivalent of leaving a backpack full of cards sitting on a table unwatched for whatever reason, only to have it stolen.
The fact of the matter is, percentage wise, far more paper magic players have had cards stolen from them then MTGO players. So if you are hoping to keep your cards safe, you should be praising MTGO not burying it.
Good. It's a wise idea not to believe everything you hear. But don't assume that healthy skeptisicm equates to ignoring the facts. WoTC did almost nothing for Felix. That is a fact. Thus, no matter what they could have said in their defence, they're in the wrong.
Edit: For what it's worth, It's easy to brute-force an MTGO account. I brute-forced my own last year as a project for a CS class.
Seeing as most people currently playing MTGO would drop out if a monthly fee were ever implemented, you are probably right. MTGO, in general, is actually much cheaper than paper to play.
The problem here is that when MTGO was released, Wizards specifically said that it would have no affect on R&D for the paper version. Not the other way around.
Also, a lesser publicized, but similar case: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=734114
Post #1 and #164 for the outcome.
Both of which were cases of the user being hacked (and not giving out their password or whatever), and in both of those cases WotC worked with them to get as many cards back as they could...
Far more than they actually would need to do, but they did it anyway.
Just thought I'd bring some actual facts to the discussion about WotC not caring about MTGO collections..
Anyway, the newest round of V3 Beta should be starting today. I hope that everyone who wants in gets an invite!
MTGO Writer and Epic Time-Waster.
If you have questions about MTGO PM me, I'm all up ons, as it were.
Check out my articles on http://puremtgo.com/ I'm the nerd you see there... wait, not that one. Nope, not that one either... yeah. That one.
This is true, but I do not think too many people believed it. Juggernaut was on the reserved list at one time, after all. They also said they would never create a card that was functionally identical to an another card with a different cost, and they have since done that repeatedly.
Most people I know that play Magic expected this would happen some day, and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that this was not the first time it has happened. I had to admire their guts for admitting it, actually. And what is the big deal as it is? MTGO is a real product. Being a video game, it cannot simulate every nuance of real life play. It can, however, offer any card available to paper users. They would lose considerable credibility if they let that go and told MTGO users "sorry."
Considering what does get out the door, this is just not as important to me as it was at the time I abandoned the beta in disgust and sold all my cards. During the beta, the viability of the online game was in question - I admit I had plenty of doubts myself. Well it's been about 5 years now and the popularity is increasing. They have created a Digital games department with RaBu leading the way. So I'll bet that at least one additional time, a mechanic will be killed because it cannot be programmed in MTGO, and has been mentioned already, countless other mechanics that would work beautifully in MTGO will fail because they will not work in paper.
I disagree with you there. I think that if Wizards decided to take the paper and online version in different directions, it would help them explore their ideas to a better degree. Inevitably in such a case, the majority of players would shift to whichever has had the strongest (or most interesting?) set released, but I don't think this would be a problem. Even I, who maintain a grudge against the online version, would shift to it if it were given what I thought was a better set. Whether or not I would still maintain my grudge, though? Moot point.
EDIT: Nevermind, that whole thing sounded like crap. Wizards can't go in two different directions, it'll end up leaving one of the versions in the dust, probably permanently.
I can still get a pack of cards locally for 2.50$-3.00$, and get in on a draft for between 8$ and 9$- that's one of my two problems with playing online. I'd much rather they remove the redemption option and drop their prices. Packs went up in price to cover rising costs; costs they don't have to deal with when distributing their own digital product.
/begin Rant
The second being the interaction online- people don't feel the need to be civil, or frequently even interact with you during an online game. Honestly, the last thing i need during my leisure time is to be verbally abused by some faceless 12 year old kid. I like the interaction with other people too much to get into playing online too heavily. The dark truth about the online version is that you only get to play against your opponent's skill, and not your opponent.
You really can't avoid the fact that the phisical game is so much deeper. Setting aside entirely the larger card pool- I know my style and behavior changes slightly depending on who sits across the table from me. I'll play differently against a 16 year old boy than i will a 7 year old girl. A pretty girl sits across from me and I'm into a completely different battle of wills. I once got my butt handed to me by a kid with downs syndrome- because I underestimated him. That would never have happened online.
In a physical game, i can keep two cards in my hand, stack a few islands together a little to the left and create entire worlds of illusions. I can even carry a vial of 'holy water' and bless the table, just to freak people out. I gain the weakness of my tells. I have to make sure my opponent isn't cheating. I have to keep track of more. I have to understand rules interactions.
In my opinion playing online takes the game from being an Art to being a Science. And that just dosen't interest me as much. I've had experiences in real life that i could never have online. I've met lifelong friends, started relationships, and even bought a car once based on the social interaction that comes with the phisical game.
That being said- yea, i play online sometimes. Sometimes i feel the need for a draft at 3 a.m. Sometimes it's raining cats and dogs out there, and i just don't feel like leaving the house. So, yea, it's more convenient. But porn is convenient. Has my heart ever tried to pound out of my chest during an online match? No. Has an online draft ever cascaded into an all night party at a local club? Not in my experience. Can you simulate something quite dirty between Rayne and a pile of goblin tokens to leave your opponents and onlookers practically rolling on the floor with laughter? Oh, definately not.
Okay, i could keep yapping but i'll stop now. All in all, i'm looking forward to Online 3, but i still don't have any real faith in the online play. It's just not as fun for me. /end Rant
I'll just say, amen brother.
QFT!
My Extendo Sig! Because I want to be Cool!!
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
This doesn't have a lot to do with my post that you quoted BTW. We all have individual values that we apply when we decide how important something is to each of us. My Magic circle disintigrated somewhere during Mirage. MTGO meets my requirements for playing Magic. My other social needs and wants are met well outside of the game. For reference, here is what the post was. It is absolutely true. Try building a collection and you will see how dirt cheap most of the cards are. The prices are actually a major topic of discussion on the official boards.
Originally Posted by Unused Nickname
Seeing as most people currently playing MTGO would drop out if a monthly fee were ever implemented, you are probably right. MTGO, in general, is actually much cheaper than paper to play.
Really? Well then they did far more then I would of expected.
Wizards actually impressed me... Scary.
~Nim
Doesnt for me, notice the stipulation, as many as they could.
weak.
They know what you had, and if they dont, creating a snap shot of everyones collection as they sign out and saving those for a month and rotating them would solve that isssue.
The fact they cant give you back all your fake, replicated at a touch of a button product makes me unable to dump more then a trivial amount of money into it.
If I do everything in my power to keep hackers out of my collection, and they still do, I fully expect them to give me my entire collection back, pending thier own investigation of course. Im not a turd.
I only go on it now to watch games in the competitive room, I find a deck that looks good and I follow him around writing the cards down, outside of that, not my cup of tea.
QFT!
My Extendo Sig! Because I want to be Cool!!
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
As for saving a screen shot as you leave, that isn't exactly a trival thing for them to do (keeping that amount of data is a fairly large feat). On the other hand, you could keep a screen shot yourself and then show it to them if it bothered you that much.
Just giveing things away whenever someone says "I lost this" however, in my opinion, would lead to far too many scams, which is why I thought they would keep a hard line "do nothing at all" attitude.
Seems they are more generous then I...
~Nim
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Im 22, I don't need to go to a game store to play games against players who don't know the rules. I don't like the arguing with judges who the majority of them they are questionable with rules questions. You touched on many things of why I think the online game is better.
1) I don't have to play people who stack their lands so you can't tell whats untapped and what is.
2) I don't have to play a kid with BO and talks like a "nerd"
3) I don't have to worry about my vintage cards getting stolen.
4) I don't have to explain to a judge how to do his job.(i live in a "small" area and i'm like the most hardcore magic player left in town)
5) the "social" atmosphere of smelly kids saying "i'm rick james *****" gets old real fast and its hard to concentrate on actually playing the game.
you mention that there isn't a "social" aspect to mtgo. you should play with a decent sized clan. we have our own room we make our own tournaments and its fun to play with them. My group of friends can't get together everyweek. we don't have the time. .its nice to just go into the clan room and chat it up with people who aren't going to judge you or whatever.
the main advantage you don't have to play in a card store.. if you want to look at porn and own some noobs you can do that. the best advantage for me is listening to some prog rock and doing a sealed event on my day off (which happen to be mondays and wednesdays.. where else can you do that?)
all i'm saying is.. while pack prices may be cheaper.. you can easily get rav block draft where its more difficult to do that in paper.. and you can't do it whenever you want..
mtgo is for players who want to PLAY.. not worry about all the other things.
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The last thing I need is to be verbally abused by some 12 year-old period right to my face. Have you actually spoken to children today? The internet generation doesn't care whether you are thre or not - they are rude.
Online, the block button is far more effective at ignoring whomever I want.
All those things sounds like reasons NOT to play in person to me, especially in a tourney environment, where those kind of distractions are not really welcome. In a casual environment, you may want the opposite.
Again, those are the kinds of thins many people DON'T want to have to deal with. Why would you WANT to have to keep track of things? Why would you want to have to figure out minor and annoying rules interactions? THose all sound like things you thikngive you an advantage over most people. In which case, most people don't want you to have them, and will gravitate online.
And I've made friends online. In fact, despite the fact that I've never seen their faces and shook their hands, I've gone so far as to lend my clanmates hundreds of dollars worth of cards just to play in tourneys.
I've gotten job offers and met people from across the globe with different world views. This is not something that happens when you play the same 25 people at the local store for a decade.
Just because your experience with MTGO hasn't equalled what you you've experienced in paper doesn't actually mean that one is a better experience than other. It sounds much more like you put a lot more into your paper experience than you ever bothered to put into the online one.
You only get what you give.
It is not concerning the pros/cons of paper/digital play.
Please keep discussion on topic.
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