It makes it viable. Snow White was played, even though there was UW control.
Plus with Black, you get access to all those triple black cards, and the nifty Tendrils of Corruption. It'll also let you run a Sheets engine.
Well, Snow White was played, but loses consistantly now. But thats not technically a fair compairison, since its a combo deck, and beating a combo deck is half figureing out the combo.
I'l have to wait to see the lists. I remember Mirrodin black MBC, I hated playing against it, but respected it, I'll have to see how this seasons go.
If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
Why is the text white? I believe the card is real because it is on the WotC website, if I saw it anywhere else, I would be skeptical. This is a very good thing for black, mass removal is now viable and so is mono black. I just don't understand why the text is white.
Why is the text white? I believe the card is real because it is on the WotC website, if I saw it anywhere else, I would be skeptical. This is a very good thing for black, mass removal is now viable and so is mono black. I just don't understand why the text is white.
The text is white becuase it is a planeshifted card. As has been discussed in the thread already.
Many times.
And in the compiled info thread, and in the magazine preview threads too.
Please read the thread before posting random thoughts on this card. repeated info and cries of 'Fake' WILL result in warnings
There is nothing much calculated with Wrath of God. That's why its not black really. Sure black gets board sweepers but they all have a catch.
Mutilate? Nice.. my 6/6 black dragon lives while your puny hordes perish.
Plague Wind? Nice.. your pathetic army is reduced to ash.
Decree of Pain? Lose some, win some.
Hellfire? THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL FALL BEFORE THE WICKED AND ALL CREATION SHALL TREMBLE BEFORE THE BURNING BANNERS OF HELL!
get the point? If you are big black and mean black likes you, black doesn't just non-discriminantly wipe the board like a panicking duck. It Calculates. Possible losses, potential gains. Promise of Power.
Precisely, precisely! Calculated.
If Black was to kill its own, it would either pay through the nose, or get something out of it (for when it's weakness is showing, or not, respectively). It can't just call a 'drawback' to the spell to down the cost.
If Black was to kill all enemy creatures, it has to pay for Plague Wind. That is what it costs to kill all enemy creatures right? Why would it cost less, to kill more creatures?
Y'know, it's funny, with all the arguing for Wrath's placement. I'm not convinced it belongs in either.
The history argument for White doesn't work, because by that argument (alone), everything is "wrong" that doesn't match up with Alpha and every other prior example.
The killer argument for Black doesn't work because of this post by Dream_Merchant above.
I've yet to see an answer to the equalizer argument for White. White should equalize. I think the answer, if it exists, lies in explaining why Akroma's Vengeancedoes belong in White...
Y'know, I think we're only left with one option. The colour that destroys all creatures?
If Black was to kill its own, it would either pay through the nose, or get something out of it (for when it's weakness is showing, or not, respectively). It can't just call a 'drawback' to the spell to down the cost.
If Black was to kill all enemy creatures, it has to pay for Plague Wind. That is what it costs to kill all enemy creatures right? Why would it cost less, to kill more creatures?
Y'know, it's funny, with all the arguing for Wrath's placement. I'm not convinced it belongs in either.
The history argument for White doesn't work, because by that argument (alone), everything is "wrong" that doesn't match up with Alpha and every other prior example.
The killer argument for Black doesn't work because of this post by Dream_Merchant above.
I've yet to see an answer to the equalizer argument for White. White should equalize. I think the answer, if it exists, lies in explaining why Akroma's Vengeancedoes belong in White...
Y'know, I think we're only left with one option. The colour that destroys all creatures?
Red Burns creatures and Players. It destroys artifacts and lands. Obliterate is about the only sweeper from red that actually destroys creatures. Flamebreak/Wildfire/Pyroclasm, Red burns, not destroys. Terminate is much more black than red.
White is the color of balance. Wrath balances the board.
Period.
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Red Burns creatures and Players. It destroys artifacts and lands. Obliterate is about the only sweeper from red that actually destroys creatures. Flamebreak/Wildfire/Pyroclasm, Red burns, not destroys. Terminate is much more black than red.
White is the color of balance. Wrath balances the board.
Period.
It was a joke. ... you gone and ruined it.
So, maybe White can equalize the board. But why does it say 'destroy' and not 'remove'? And why is the spell so darned cheap? If it cost six, or even five, monogreen would make the scene, aggro could get a bit weaker, white control could be deepened, Blue could make appearances without unstoppable fortresses of permission and cards as shamefully problem-revealing as Spell Snare...
I think everyone would like it if Wrath disappeared for a while. Why doesn't Wizards just do it, like with Counterspell? See where the game goes for two years, four?
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Yes. It's very difficult to calculate your deck's strengths toplayaround mutual board sweepers. That's why currently existing decks that play Wrath of God don't do that at all. This makes it very different from other mutual board sweepers like Barter in Blood and Mutilate, where you can build your deck to take advantage of the drawback. I mean, it's not like you'd just be running kill conditions higher up on the curve that would follow a board-clearing sweeper instead of getting caught up in it. This is all very real, and makes your argument not transparent and nonsensical, if not flat-out contradictory.
If Black was to kill its own, it would either pay through the nose, or get something out of it (for when it's weakness is showing, or not, respectively). It can't just call a 'drawback' to the spell to down the cost.
Yeah, but in that same Rosewater article, he emphasizes that one of black's attributes / tactics is "sacrifice of pieces of self". cf. Dark Confidant, Skulltap, Diabolic Intent.
Having said that, Damnation is technically undercosted - mainly because it's a direct color-inversion of Wrath of God, and Wrath of God is itself undercosted.
You see, white wants things pure. Not tainted, not flawed, not unbalanced. Actually the card The Cheese Stands Alone, even though being an Un-card, portrays this part of white philosophy very well. You see, white sometimes doesn't want to play at all. Because in its quest for victory it would need to annihilate the enemy.
If you have ever watched the old movie War Games ( and if you haven't I suggest you do ), sometimes the only way to win is not to play at all. And this is what white does with its awesome reset buttons. Don't play. Not point removal counterspell denial. Dont play anything. Its futile. Ephemeral. If the game draws, white wins - Divine Intervention
Its this Purity part of white that gives it access to its vast array of board sweepers. It is not black, but white that seeks to Purify the world from everything. After all, the purest of pure is the void itself.
Barter in Blood and Wrath of God are exactly the same thing if you are the one playing them; with no creatures of yours in play. So stop whining and victimizing white plz= I sac. 2, you sac. 2 - My cre.s are destroyed, your cre.s are destroyed; fair deal.
And white can be pure, but black is corrupt and sadistic so may be he doesn't want to play anything that hurts him, but wants to hurt others.
I think most of the people who oppose Damnation, are afraid of the result of a match between U/W control and U/B control; afterall Black will be unstoppable with blue, and blue will be quite pleased to preserve his new power-hungry master with whatever knowledge he wants: blue has vast knowledge, black has vast hunger for it; bye bye U/W control.
Me, I'm just an aggro B/G, MBC, Pandemonium kombo player who has a tight budget, so this is not my concern. This is just my humble opinion of a peasent passer by...
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So, let's assume for a moment that WotC IS taking away Wrath effects from white and giving them to black (I don't buy it... but lets work on that assumption for now.)
How does that leave white control? Would there be any other way for white to get card advantage? I don't see any.
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"You know that a conjurer gets no credit once he has explained his trick; and if I show you too much of my method of working, you will come to the conclusion that I am a very ordinary individual after all." - Sherlock Holmes
...Lets differentiate between the fantasy aspect and the game aspect of Magic, sure they mingle when you concern with mechanics, but I don't think there is a serious and competitive tournament deck that gives a darn blast about the fantasy aspect or the colour wheel or balancing issues. Competitive tournament decks are geared to do one thing and do it repeatedly and that is: WIN.
If you are going to analyse the colour pie through tournament play, you have a thing coming for you... In this premise, noone gives a monkey if Wrath of God is black, green or purple.. if it gets you to your primary goal of WINNING, then its good. Otherwise, its not even worth notice.
Are you serious? Sure black uses corruption and pain.. but hurting itself is not something black is shy about, the point with black is that it is willing to do anything to acheive its goals, if inflicting pain upon itself assists it in these goals, so be it.. gladly and willingly. ( From what I wrote above I am convinced that Spike is black .. must be black ).
Of course you have a right of an opinion, and we, especially I, are not High Lords of Magic or some such. But you are again doing the mistake of comparing flavor with gameplay. For example, I am not afraid of any decks that Standard can spawn, since I do not play Standard. I also do not in any way oppose Damnation, heck.. what does oppose mean.. its getting printed anyway, not as if Wizards is going to retract it. So cool, a new toy to play with.. nice.
But that is not the question, the question is the Wrath effect being ( or not ) black or white in the premise of flavor reflected by the game mechanics attached to this flavor.
And I think Wrath is far more white than black. That, now is my opinion.
Well when Dragonstorm deck wins with the dragon of its color (Bogardan HEllkite) I'm pleased both flavorwise and tournamentwise. If it won with 4 kokusho's I must confess I wouldn't be much pleased because perhaps I'm not so Black as Spike and don't always want to win but play.
So I think I must say this now:
Look at Ascendant Evincar and Crovax, Ascendant Hero. What is the difference here? 3/3 in black becomes 4/4 in white, no return to hand abilities in the Black one, and white gets to give -1/-1 to creatures; and I don't feel right about it either. of course it is wizards who print it, and people will play it, smash face with it, which Spike cares about colors anyway?!! Maybe Spike Feeder?!! Don't bother, good card, and U/B Control will benefit the most of it.
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well this is only my opinion but
i dont like this move at all... i don't mind
seeing wrath effects in black but the idea
of black getting practically an exact duplicate of it
just doesn't sit right
It costs less to kill more creatures because it is a drawback. Want to kill just the opponet's creatures? Pay more, specificaly a little over double. Again, as I've stated many times at the cost of being the broken record again when you as the player break the card or symmetry, that is NOT inherent to the card, that has nothing to do with flavor reasons or the card.
If Black has a problem killing it's own creatures (which in no way in hell it should) then you flavor haters should say that Black would never pay it's own life to do any type of effects; I mean...that's just hurting itself, that's not Black, why would it do that?:rolleyes:
From a flavor perspective, Black is allowed to do anything, it's in the article, which, as an extreme example would include enchantment kill. They don't do that for power/mechanic reasons inherent in the game, not the flavor. Black kills creatures. It is aptly named the KING of destruction (living things). Black wouldn't give a damn (bad pun intended) about killing it's own creatures if it would give it power (i.e. win the game).
Why would a Black planeswalker feel bad about sacrificing it's own minions, possibly DEMONS, to achieve it's own ends? Yeah, sounds so not Black.:rolleyes:
For the mods: despite my quite vocal feedback in this and the other thread, this is new stuff in response to people who either didn't read the whole thread, bringing up new arguments or are doing the broken record thing without reading.
Being able to kill off all your own creatures, then have at least 4 cards in color to return them to hand/play? That's just nasty. Not to mention stuff like rise/fall which becomes a little better. I mean white has resurrection, but that's it in standard, right?
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i see many ppl pointing this out but i think they know it isn't a good point so i'll just type out why multilate and wrath could exist together and not ruin the game and how damnation and wrath will. multilate cannot be played in any deck. specifically, it weakens with the number of swamps you control. which basically means it will never be able to play effectively with a wrath. but damnation and wrath go past that and nowwizards have just ruined standard. i sure hope they never reprint either wrath or damnation in ninth. it was always clearly broken.
and what is this saying that damnation is out of color? yes, the color pie is officially gone. we have almost no more reason to play multicolor (that is of course you want to run 8 wraths). but this card is not out of color at all. i think wrath of god is the white damnation. black has destroy. and the truth is, i think white and black have an equivilant number of wipe out the field cards if not that black has more. i think it is fair that the color that is supposed to be good at destroying creatures gets the most efficient destruction card in standard. it is not fair that white has it.
for tenth, maybe they should reprint final judgement if they still want white to have power. wrath is just too much. i think wrath should never ever be reprinted again. it is out of color and broken. because of its out of color qualities, wrath is actually more broken than damnation.
i see many ppl pointing this out but i think they know it isn't a good point so i'll just type out why multilate and wrath could exist together and not ruin the game and how damnation and wrath will. multilate cannot be played in any deck. specifically, it weakens with the number of swamps you control. which basically means it will never be able to play effectively with a wrath. but damnation and wrath go past that and nowwizards have just ruined standard. i sure hope they never reprint either wrath or damnation in ninth. it was always clearly broken.
and what is this saying that damnation is out of color? yes, the color pie is officially gone. we have almost no more reason to play multicolor (that is of course you want to run 8 wraths). but this card is not out of color at all. i think wrath of god is the white damnation. black has destroy. and the truth is, i think white and black have an equivilant number of wipe out the field cards if not that black has more. i think it is fair that the color that is supposed to be good at destroying creatures gets the most efficient destruction card in standard. it is not fair that white has it.
for tenth, maybe they should reprint final judgement if they still want white to have power. wrath is just too much. i think wrath should never ever be reprinted again. it is out of color and broken. because of its out of color qualities, wrath is actually more broken than damnation.
I agree with every word, other than Wrath being 'broken'. Wrath is the backbone that keeps white being playable outside of weenie. White has usually needed some help with straight up aggro, and it does't go combo. Its there for control players. Nobody says, I went up against that Wrath deck, although they will now. Wrath is not broken. Its an enabler and a balancer. I'm 100% fine with Black getting its own version. Perhaps Plague Wind should have been white and called Judgement. I can see either color getting mass kill abilities. Its interesting they did just give Magus of the Disk to white, not black.
I dont know why people compare 4 *** and 4 damnation as 4 chars and 4 psionic blast. There is a main reason you do not put 8 chars and its because you dont want to take 16 dmg at the end of the day from casting your own spells. Now im not saying 8 wraths are useful but there really isnt a drawback to having more than 4.
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this kinda reminds me of ONS era W control decks.. they had Akroma's vengence and ***.. and no aggro deck could realistically stop it.. now.. W/B (already somewhat popular and powerful) gets 8 Wraths to effectively stop creature decks.. and if they printed problematic artifacts they could be sided out with Disk boy no problem. I think with the amazing Mana fixing going on this really effectively kills any kind of aggro style deck it almost makes you play counterspells .. although I like that approach and I like the fact that colors are getting different cards but this one is kinda overthetop, black gets the best creature removal no matter what. here's hoping that the other colors get in on some dark bansishing action.
I think in the long term this set will be worth sealed as much as the urza sets.. (and online this set is as good as gold.. i can't wait)
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I just want people who redraft to admit this:
"I can't draft objectively unless I am able to guarantee that I receive at least 3 rares. I am also better than most average/new players so I want to make sure that I get the best rares and they end up with worse ones. I care more about the monetary value of cards than actually playing the game for decent prizes."
The flavor behind Damnation is more subtle than Wrath of God. A white mage plays Wrath of God to balance everything, make a fair deal for everyone. However, black sees what is really happening. Since when did you cast a Wrath of God for a "Fair" deal. In theory it is, but practice is very difference.
Black can Damnation because it Isn't fair, it wants an advantage and Wrath of God, and now Damnation is one of the greatest ways to get an advantage.
Wrath is the backbone that keeps white being playable outside of weenie. White has usually needed some help with straight up aggro, and it does't go combo.
Well... you see, that's like saying, say, that Ancestral Recall was still printed, or even just counterspell. How's blue control supposed to get the card advantage it needs, or counter things fast enough not to die to early weenies?
Sure, those might be the best things to do what they do, and they'd obviously be what you'd use if given the chance, but that doesn't make them, well, balanced. If you take them out, sure, blue would have more trouble getting the card advantage it wants and stopping things quickly, but it obviously still can function, and it's no longer always dominant.
White still has better point 'destruction' than black, better defensive spells, far better lifegain then black tends to get lifedrain (Kokusho being, well, the only recent example to the contrary I can think of), still a few leftover ways to get card advantage, and so on.
Honestly, even after moving wrath to black, black still needs some work done to start being on par with white and red as far as destruction goes. Would you rather play Incinerate or Last Gasp? Dark Banishing or Temporal Isolation?
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It costs less to kill more creatures because it is a drawback. Want to kill just the opponet's creatures? Pay more, specificaly a little over double. Again, as I've stated many times at the cost of being the broken record again when you as the player break the card or symmetry, that is NOT inherent to the card, that has nothing to do with flavor reasons or the card.
From a flavor perspective, Black is allowed to do anything, it's in the article, which, as an extreme example would include enchantment kill. They don't do that for power/mechanic reasons inherent in the game, not the flavor. Black kills creatures. It is aptly named the KING of destruction (living things). Black wouldn't give a damn (bad pun intended) about killing it's own creatures if it would give it power (i.e. win the game).
Why would a Black planeswalker feel bad about sacrificing it's own minions, possibly DEMONS, to achieve it's own ends? Yeah, sounds so not Black.:rolleyes:
For Black, very little can be a drawback if Black would do anything. Sometimes your creatures stand in the way of your success. They're all trying to kill you (Greater Harvester, Phyrexian Negator, etc. etc.) If there is a spell that kills lots of creatures, Black pays to be able to kill lots of creatures, because that is power. Killing more, even your own, is still the exercise of power.
And umm... I guess I have to confront this... why is it that the player's abuse of the symmetry is not part of the flavour? I just... don't see how that is true. Card's have to be designed with the player's use of them in mind; with the full range of their use in mind. Otherwise, White would get pingers, because "they *could* just use them on attackers." That's crazytalk to deny.
This part confuses me:
"If Black has a problem killing it's own creatures (which in no way in hell it should) then you flavor haters should say that Black would never pay it's own life to do any type of effects; I mean...that's just hurting itself, that's not Black, why would it do that?:rolleyes:" ~Squall
Black doesn't have a problem killing its own creatures, except when things are going well. But what I said is that at the times when Black does go out to kill something - anything - it has to pay for it. If Black ever kills its own, it is either to pay a cost in sacrifice, or to stop its creatures before they cause Black's demise (Dross Harvester, PHyrexian Negator). But paying a cost in sacrifice requires Black being sorta on top anyway; it has the 'power' to do so, either through some spell in hand, or an enchantment... or control of another creature that sacrifices creatures. But sometimes Black doesn't have this; suppose some White and Blue force has precisely removed Black's defenses, waiting for Black to die. You'd better believe that the forces Black deals with aren't going to just hand it salvation. Black pays exactly for what it gets.
Because there are two different circumstances where Black would kill all its creatures, I don't see any way for a Wrath to be costed fairly. Black cannot just get a general "everyone killer," because it is just as much able to be a Plague Wind plus benefits as it is a Plague Wind with drawback.
Ah, and now the final: Black is allowed to do everything. That doesn't mean it can or does do everything, in some cases just indirectly. Enchantment destruction is one case of something it can't do. Not directly.
Remember "In the Black," remember this line: "And if black has to live in this world, then it’s going to play by the rules that exist. And those rules are simple: Do what you want until someone more powerful stops you."
Those are the rules that exist. Black can't override them. Though, Black wants to run right up to the limit of this rule, because it is the only thing that all life is governed by.
What does that mean? It means the strong do not defeat the weak. The weak must seek power, and become the strong. This is why Black *can't* destroy enchantments, because, as I will show, that could enable the weak to defeat the strong.
An enchantment (a global one, let's say for now) is a manifestation of the planeswalker's power. As long as the enchantment exists, its magic, global that it is, is very much simply the power of the planeswalker showing itself. It's just like a spell to itself, or an ability of a creature to that creature; it is some power that the planeswalker has.
Black does not touch that stuff because it can't. To just take an enchantment from the opponent is just simply overpowering the opponent no matter his strength. Black is forced to accept the power of its opponent, and defeat him despite that power. Black fights through the magic. Black destroys enchantments when it destroys their controller. If Black wins, then hey - couldn't have been a useful enchantment anyway. If Black loses... then game over. Someone more powerful stopped it.
This carries to Auras, as long as you note that it isn't the power of the enchantee. It's still paid for by the "Your planeswalker" fund. Black overcomes those by annihilating the enchantee.
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The flavor behind Damnation is more subtle than Wrath of God. A white mage plays Wrath of God to balance everything, make a fair deal for everyone. However, black sees what is really happening. Since when did you cast a Wrath of God for a "Fair" deal. In theory it is, but practice is very difference.
Black can Damnation because it Isn't fair, it wants an advantage and Wrath of God, and now Damnation is one of the greatest ways to get an advantage.
Preach on, Brother! It's nice to see someone who actually knows the flavour of Damnation, with the two camps disagreeing on how "White Wrath is in flavour of its Balance philosophy" and how "Black Wrath is in flavour of its Anything for Ambition + Power ideal".
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I'm jazzed!! No more "Wankushookam, the Fist that Opens Only This Much"!
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Wrath of God couldn't be more religious if the picture was Jesus smacking demons with a jug of Holy Water.
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Well, Snow White was played, but loses consistantly now. But thats not technically a fair compairison, since its a combo deck, and beating a combo deck is half figureing out the combo.
I'l have to wait to see the lists. I remember Mirrodin black MBC, I hated playing against it, but respected it, I'll have to see how this seasons go.
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If anyone knows why G0-DRAW was banned I would love it if they would PM me. That guy was pure entertainment 100% of the time. Plus he never publicly responded to his Contraptions "Proof" that never panned out.
The text is white becuase it is a planeshifted card. As has been discussed in the thread already.
Many times.
And in the compiled info thread, and in the magazine preview threads too.
Please read the thread before posting random thoughts on this card. repeated info and cries of 'Fake' WILL result in warnings
Precisely, precisely! Calculated.
If Black was to kill its own, it would either pay through the nose, or get something out of it (for when it's weakness is showing, or not, respectively). It can't just call a 'drawback' to the spell to down the cost.
If Black was to kill all enemy creatures, it has to pay for Plague Wind. That is what it costs to kill all enemy creatures right? Why would it cost less, to kill more creatures?
Y'know, it's funny, with all the arguing for Wrath's placement. I'm not convinced it belongs in either.
The history argument for White doesn't work, because by that argument (alone), everything is "wrong" that doesn't match up with Alpha and every other prior example.
The killer argument for Black doesn't work because of this post by Dream_Merchant above.
I've yet to see an answer to the equalizer argument for White. White should equalize. I think the answer, if it exists, lies in explaining why Akroma's Vengeance does belong in White...
Y'know, I think we're only left with one option. The colour that destroys all creatures?
Red.
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No.
Red Burns creatures and Players. It destroys artifacts and lands. Obliterate is about the only sweeper from red that actually destroys creatures. Flamebreak/Wildfire/Pyroclasm, Red burns, not destroys. Terminate is much more black than red.
White is the color of balance. Wrath balances the board.
Period.
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It was a joke. ... you gone and ruined it.
So, maybe White can equalize the board. But why does it say 'destroy' and not 'remove'? And why is the spell so darned cheap? If it cost six, or even five, monogreen would make the scene, aggro could get a bit weaker, white control could be deepened, Blue could make appearances without unstoppable fortresses of permission and cards as shamefully problem-revealing as Spell Snare...
I think everyone would like it if Wrath disappeared for a while. Why doesn't Wizards just do it, like with Counterspell? See where the game goes for two years, four?
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Yes. It's very difficult to calculate your deck's strengths to play around mutual board sweepers. That's why currently existing decks that play Wrath of God don't do that at all. This makes it very different from other mutual board sweepers like Barter in Blood and Mutilate, where you can build your deck to take advantage of the drawback. I mean, it's not like you'd just be running kill conditions higher up on the curve that would follow a board-clearing sweeper instead of getting caught up in it. This is all very real, and makes your argument not transparent and nonsensical, if not flat-out contradictory.
[/sarcasm]
wait.... what? Sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say. At all.
I hate when my analytical abilities fail me like this.
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Yeah, but in that same Rosewater article, he emphasizes that one of black's attributes / tactics is "sacrifice of pieces of self". cf. Dark Confidant, Skulltap, Diabolic Intent.
Having said that, Damnation is technically undercosted - mainly because it's a direct color-inversion of Wrath of God, and Wrath of God is itself undercosted.
Barter in Blood and Wrath of God are exactly the same thing if you are the one playing them; with no creatures of yours in play. So stop whining and victimizing white plz= I sac. 2, you sac. 2 - My cre.s are destroyed, your cre.s are destroyed; fair deal.
And white can be pure, but black is corrupt and sadistic so may be he doesn't want to play anything that hurts him, but wants to hurt others.
I think most of the people who oppose Damnation, are afraid of the result of a match between U/W control and U/B control; afterall Black will be unstoppable with blue, and blue will be quite pleased to preserve his new power-hungry master with whatever knowledge he wants: blue has vast knowledge, black has vast hunger for it; bye bye U/W control.
Me, I'm just an aggro B/G, MBC, Pandemonium kombo player who has a tight budget, so this is not my concern. This is just my humble opinion of a peasent passer by...
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and the "Major changes to Extended" in July 2010. You aborted our cards., but we approve of the Modern format. Even if it doesn't ha ve Carrion Feeder or Caller of the Claw in it.Dex: http://deckbox.org/users/Egementium_instructoid
How does that leave white control? Would there be any other way for white to get card advantage? I don't see any.
Well when Dragonstorm deck wins with the dragon of its color (Bogardan HEllkite) I'm pleased both flavorwise and tournamentwise. If it won with 4 kokusho's I must confess I wouldn't be much pleased because perhaps I'm not so Black as Spike and don't always want to win but play.
So I think I must say this now:
Look at Ascendant Evincar and Crovax, Ascendant Hero. What is the difference here? 3/3 in black becomes 4/4 in white, no return to hand abilities in the Black one, and white gets to give -1/-1 to creatures; and I don't feel right about it either. of course it is wizards who print it, and people will play it, smash face with it, which Spike cares about colors anyway?!! Maybe Spike Feeder?!! Don't bother, good card, and U/B Control will benefit the most of it.
Cult of the Succubi Eating Kitten and Brotherhood of Hamsters - Zombie One/Hulking One - Brotherhood of Hamsters disapproves of Damage on the Stack amputation, the corruption of Mythics,
and the "Major changes to Extended" in July 2010. You aborted our cards., but we approve of the Modern format. Even if it doesn't ha ve Carrion Feeder or Caller of the Claw in it.Dex: http://deckbox.org/users/Egementium_instructoid
i dont like this move at all... i don't mind
seeing wrath effects in black but the idea
of black getting practically an exact duplicate of it
just doesn't sit right
If Black has a problem killing it's own creatures (which in no way in hell it should) then you flavor haters should say that Black would never pay it's own life to do any type of effects; I mean...that's just hurting itself, that's not Black, why would it do that?:rolleyes:
From a flavor perspective, Black is allowed to do anything, it's in the article, which, as an extreme example would include enchantment kill. They don't do that for power/mechanic reasons inherent in the game, not the flavor. Black kills creatures. It is aptly named the KING of destruction (living things). Black wouldn't give a damn (bad pun intended) about killing it's own creatures if it would give it power (i.e. win the game).
Why would a Black planeswalker feel bad about sacrificing it's own minions, possibly DEMONS, to achieve it's own ends? Yeah, sounds so not Black.:rolleyes:
For the mods: despite my quite vocal feedback in this and the other thread, this is new stuff in response to people who either didn't read the whole thread, bringing up new arguments or are doing the broken record thing without reading.
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I like Damnation. Anything that helps game against mindless aggro decks is fine by me. Just please don't drop Wrath.
Peak rating 1832
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and what is this saying that damnation is out of color? yes, the color pie is officially gone. we have almost no more reason to play multicolor (that is of course you want to run 8 wraths). but this card is not out of color at all. i think wrath of god is the white damnation. black has destroy. and the truth is, i think white and black have an equivilant number of wipe out the field cards if not that black has more. i think it is fair that the color that is supposed to be good at destroying creatures gets the most efficient destruction card in standard. it is not fair that white has it.
for tenth, maybe they should reprint final judgement if they still want white to have power. wrath is just too much. i think wrath should never ever be reprinted again. it is out of color and broken. because of its out of color qualities, wrath is actually more broken than damnation.
I agree with every word, other than Wrath being 'broken'. Wrath is the backbone that keeps white being playable outside of weenie. White has usually needed some help with straight up aggro, and it does't go combo. Its there for control players. Nobody says, I went up against that Wrath deck, although they will now. Wrath is not broken. Its an enabler and a balancer. I'm 100% fine with Black getting its own version. Perhaps Plague Wind should have been white and called Judgement. I can see either color getting mass kill abilities. Its interesting they did just give Magus of the Disk to white, not black.
Peak rating 1832
Brain Freeze is the coolest card ever printed.
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I think in the long term this set will be worth sealed as much as the urza sets.. (and online this set is as good as gold.. i can't wait)
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Black can Damnation because it Isn't fair, it wants an advantage and Wrath of God, and now Damnation is one of the greatest ways to get an advantage.
Well... you see, that's like saying, say, that Ancestral Recall was still printed, or even just counterspell. How's blue control supposed to get the card advantage it needs, or counter things fast enough not to die to early weenies?
Sure, those might be the best things to do what they do, and they'd obviously be what you'd use if given the chance, but that doesn't make them, well, balanced. If you take them out, sure, blue would have more trouble getting the card advantage it wants and stopping things quickly, but it obviously still can function, and it's no longer always dominant.
White still has better point 'destruction' than black, better defensive spells, far better lifegain then black tends to get lifedrain (Kokusho being, well, the only recent example to the contrary I can think of), still a few leftover ways to get card advantage, and so on.
Honestly, even after moving wrath to black, black still needs some work done to start being on par with white and red as far as destruction goes. Would you rather play Incinerate or Last Gasp? Dark Banishing or Temporal Isolation?
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Cool stuff here.
For Black, very little can be a drawback if Black would do anything. Sometimes your creatures stand in the way of your success. They're all trying to kill you (Greater Harvester, Phyrexian Negator, etc. etc.) If there is a spell that kills lots of creatures, Black pays to be able to kill lots of creatures, because that is power. Killing more, even your own, is still the exercise of power.
And umm... I guess I have to confront this... why is it that the player's abuse of the symmetry is not part of the flavour? I just... don't see how that is true. Card's have to be designed with the player's use of them in mind; with the full range of their use in mind. Otherwise, White would get pingers, because "they *could* just use them on attackers." That's crazytalk to deny.
This part confuses me:
"If Black has a problem killing it's own creatures (which in no way in hell it should) then you flavor haters should say that Black would never pay it's own life to do any type of effects; I mean...that's just hurting itself, that's not Black, why would it do that?:rolleyes:" ~Squall
Black doesn't have a problem killing its own creatures, except when things are going well. But what I said is that at the times when Black does go out to kill something - anything - it has to pay for it. If Black ever kills its own, it is either to pay a cost in sacrifice, or to stop its creatures before they cause Black's demise (Dross Harvester, PHyrexian Negator). But paying a cost in sacrifice requires Black being sorta on top anyway; it has the 'power' to do so, either through some spell in hand, or an enchantment... or control of another creature that sacrifices creatures. But sometimes Black doesn't have this; suppose some White and Blue force has precisely removed Black's defenses, waiting for Black to die. You'd better believe that the forces Black deals with aren't going to just hand it salvation. Black pays exactly for what it gets.
Because there are two different circumstances where Black would kill all its creatures, I don't see any way for a Wrath to be costed fairly. Black cannot just get a general "everyone killer," because it is just as much able to be a Plague Wind plus benefits as it is a Plague Wind with drawback.
Ah, and now the final: Black is allowed to do everything. That doesn't mean it can or does do everything, in some cases just indirectly. Enchantment destruction is one case of something it can't do. Not directly.
Remember "In the Black," remember this line: "And if black has to live in this world, then it’s going to play by the rules that exist. And those rules are simple: Do what you want until someone more powerful stops you."
Those are the rules that exist. Black can't override them. Though, Black wants to run right up to the limit of this rule, because it is the only thing that all life is governed by.
What does that mean? It means the strong do not defeat the weak. The weak must seek power, and become the strong. This is why Black *can't* destroy enchantments, because, as I will show, that could enable the weak to defeat the strong.
An enchantment (a global one, let's say for now) is a manifestation of the planeswalker's power. As long as the enchantment exists, its magic, global that it is, is very much simply the power of the planeswalker showing itself. It's just like a spell to itself, or an ability of a creature to that creature; it is some power that the planeswalker has.
Black does not touch that stuff because it can't. To just take an enchantment from the opponent is just simply overpowering the opponent no matter his strength. Black is forced to accept the power of its opponent, and defeat him despite that power. Black fights through the magic. Black destroys enchantments when it destroys their controller. If Black wins, then hey - couldn't have been a useful enchantment anyway. If Black loses... then game over. Someone more powerful stopped it.
This carries to Auras, as long as you note that it isn't the power of the enchantee. It's still paid for by the "Your planeswalker" fund. Black overcomes those by annihilating the enchantee.
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Preach on, Brother! It's nice to see someone who actually knows the flavour of Damnation, with the two camps disagreeing on how "White Wrath is in flavour of its Balance philosophy" and how "Black Wrath is in flavour of its Anything for Ambition + Power ideal".