I mean, sure, they might have granted Akroma a spot in TS timeshifted cards, but c'mon, Sol'kanar the Swamp King, Nicol Bolas, Eron the Relentless and Verdeloth the Ancient all lost in the first round. For "stapleishness", I think Ihsan Shade had much more stapleness than all of them put together. Bolas has an added reason to be there which I'm not gonna mention but I guess most people know, granted, but really, they could had paid attention to the votes more...
Which leads me to ask, why add Ravnican legends? If these were designed to be reprints, then Ravnican legends would be kinda dumb to add for T2 overwriting; plus, there are no cards post Mirrodin, yet Bosh was an option in the You Decide!
Do you think there's something for us yet to be revealed?
Akroma being in TS had nothing to do with the 'You Decide' vote, TS was done long before the voting even started.
That's clearly not true, given that article where they mentioned that one of the "big results" of the vote would be visible "in October." The intent clearly was not "we will reprint whichever Legend wins this vote," but it does seem like the intention was to do something special with whichever Legend won -- for some the option might have been to include them in Time Spiral, for others it might have been a remade version or a special promo or something. We'll probably know for certain after next Monday.
well we'll know for sure next week, when they talk about the Timeshift development. while i can see the winning of the You Descide vote as possibly being a "push" vote for her to be included. i wouln't be suprised if they we're split between her and a couple others at let us choose. but if any Kami or Rav legends won the vote, i highly doubt they would have appeared in TS.
If you mouse over the little clock in the corner of the screen, you will note that it is September the 25th, not October. The end of October does not occur for several weeks. It is quite possible that something entirely different awaits the winner of the You Decide! voting, besides being included as a Timeshifted reprint.
If you mouse over the little clock in the corner of the screen, you will note that it is September the 25th, not October.
The set comes out in October. It's quite clearly what was meant by that particular hint (especially with Akroma featuring so heavily in the promotion of the set.)
That's clearly not true, given that article where they mentioned that one of the "big results" of the vote would be visible "in October." The intent clearly was not "we will reprint whichever Legend wins this vote," but it does seem like the intention was to do something special with whichever Legend won -- for some the option might have been to include them in Time Spiral, for others it might have been a remade version or a special promo or something. We'll probably know for certain after next Monday.
Notice how it's not October yet. Notice how TS is already out.
Y'all - I have posted this several time and people still refuse to pay attention. It isn't necessarily that the results of YD! influenced the set; it is that the results of the YD! were fascinating to WoTC because of decisions that had already been made about TS. I took the tone and comments in the article to mean that something about Akroma had already been decided for TS at that time and the fact that she won the YD! vote was part coincidence and part fate(?) in the eyes of R&D.
Seriously - read his article. Please. This has been rehashed several times. The Timeshifted cards were decided (with almost 100% certainty) before the YD! ever came up on the site.
Seriously - read his article. Please. This has been rehashed several times. The Timeshifted cards were decided (with almost 100% certainty) before the YD! ever came up on the site.
Quote from Scott Johns »
For the first big surprise, you're going to have to wait until this Fall. I'd think sometime around, say, early October.
"You guys voted for a card we already planned on reprinting! Rock!" is not a surprise. Opening up Akroma in a pack of a new set in the old card face is a surprise. His timing's a little off because the pre-release would have been a better choice for a timeframe to mention (and Scott probably didn't know that Akroma would be confirmed in an Adult Swim bump when he wrote that) but I think that has to be what he's mentioning.
Also, the You Decide finished in, what, April? The actual lead-time for 100% finalizing the set is less than three months before release. While the set list was probably largely complete at that point, that was certainly early enough to insert a single card into the sheet, especially if there were only a few candidates from the YD they would reprint and they mocked all of them up in advance.
While the set list was probably largely complete at that point, that was certainly early enough to insert a single card into the sheet, especially if there were only a few candidates from the YD they would reprint and they mocked all of them up in advance.
They design sets...how far in advance again? Two years? Or was it one? Either way the set was done long before the vote.
They had to (and did, remember what started the lawsuit?) playtest these cards, they couldn't just 'toss a new one in at the last minute'.
They design sets...how far in advance again? Two years? Or was it one? Either way the set was done long before the vote.
Design is a long process. Generally a set is turned over to development a year before the set is released. Development itself is a process that takes months; then, after it's (largely) concluded, cards
They've discussed before how they can change certain aspects of a cardset late in the process. A few cards were pulled from 9th at the last minute because they spotted Reserved List violations. When the 8th Edition artifact face was too light, by the time Wizards made the decision to darken it (shortly after Mirrodin's release) it was a little too late to squeeze it into Darksteel but there was plenty of time to fit it into Fifth Dawn. Cards have been changed in expert-level expansions shortly before the set goes to print due to development objections.
Until the set is sent for printing, nothing is locked in stone. While the last days of a set's pre-printing life aren't time for huge changes (since the layout department have to create the image of each card's face) they can change little details. Changing one single card for another when you have (presumably) already laid out a face image for it is easy, and could be done the day before the set was printed, if necessary.
Like, it is concievable that Akroma was already in the set, and I wouldn't be utterly surprised if she was (though I don't think it's likely), but I think it's important that people understand that there was in fact enough time to squeeze her in.
They had to (and did, remember what started the lawsuit?) playtest these cards, they couldn't just 'toss a new one in at the last minute'.
Like I said: presumably they had a list of legends that, if they won the You Decide, they'd reprint in TS. They could easily just playtest all of them. (And some would be low-powered enough that such a playtest would be extremely easy.)
"You guys voted for a card we already planned on reprinting! Rock!" is not a surprise.
I'm not sure what planet you are from but yes, it was a surprise. A HUGE surprise. So much of a surprise that up until a month ago people were still calling an Akroma reprint impossible.
Also - advertising campaigns are designed in advance. Well in advance of the product launch date. I would not be at all 'surprised' if WoTC had just been introduced to some of the print and television ads showing Akroma in April. The same time frame as the YD! and SJ article.
Also - advertising campaigns are designed in advance. Well in advance of the product launch date. I would not be at all 'surprised' if WoTC had just been introduced to some of the print and television ads showing Akroma in April. The same time frame as the YD! and SJ article.
Even if your time frame is correct, the ads could have been planned using any old placeholder card, with the understanding that the YD! winner would be inserted in its place.
Before I discuss what you said directly, I'll just bring some textual evidence to the table: in this column, written in May, Rosewater talks about how some development is still going on regarding Ravnica, which is due out in October. Since changes can still happen to the set that late (and a little later), the end of the You Decide was clearly more than early enough.
I'm not sure what planet you are from but yes, it was a surprise. A HUGE surprise. So much of a surprise that up until a month ago people were still calling an Akroma reprint impossible.
Let me clarify. It's definitely surprising that Akroma was reprinted in general. However, in terms of surprises that are a causal result of the vote, revealing that there was a funny coincidence involving TS reprints is not a big surprise. If Akroma was already in the set, revealing her is not a You Decide!-related surprise, it's just a general-purpose surprise.
Also - advertising campaigns are designed in advance. Well in advance of the product launch date. I would not be at all 'surprised' if WoTC had just been introduced to some of the print and television ads showing Akroma in April. The same time frame as the YD! and SJ article.
See the article I describe above: Rosewater mentions how discussions of how the set will be marketed are in full swing in May. That means the final ads definitely aren't coming back until June or later. Note that for Magic, Wizards isn't operating on a huge marketing level comparable to national TV campaigns for beer or credit cards -- they do some print ads (which I believe are all designed in-house) and very simple 15-second TV ads on a single cable program.
Also, the You Decide finished in, what, April? The actual lead-time for 100% finalizing the set is less than three months before release. While the set list was probably largely complete at that point, that was certainly early enough to insert a single card into the sheet, especially if there were only a few candidates from the YD they would reprint and they mocked all of them up in advance.
That's not actually true. If you look at the article about Skullclamp, Darksteel was finalized before Mirrodin came out. Mirrodin came out in October, Darksteel in February. That indicates a 6-month finalizing gap. That's also probably why Kataki, War's Wage didn't hit until the very end of Kamigawa block; Raffinity wasn't really a problem until Onslaught rotated out. Basically, April is really late in the cycle; you're in late development by that point. You could put her in, but I'd guess she was already in.
Like, it is concievable that Akroma was already in the set, and I wouldn't be utterly surprised if she was (though I don't think it's likely), but I think it's important that people understand that there was in fact enough time to squeeze her in.
Akroma is a weak card which is very popular, which makes it ideal for reprinting in something like that. Honestly, if I was designing this set and trying to make the purple cards popular, I'd go to cards like Akroma and Phage – weak but seem powerful and appeals to a lot of people. I dislike her, but that doesn't mean everyone does.
That's not actually true. If you look at the article about Skullclamp, Darksteel was finalized before Mirrodin came out. Mirrodin came out in October, Darksteel in February. That indicates a 6-month finalizing gap.
Well, note the Rosewater article I mentioned above -- he wrote it on May 2 and said that late-stage development of Ravnica was still going on, five months before the release of the set.
Basically, April is really late in the cycle; you're in late development by that point. You could put her in, but I'd guess she was already in.
Eh, I still think it was a "which of these?" kind of situation. There's a small number of those 65 Legends which could be considered for reprinting, and I don't believe any one of those would've been unbalanced in the environment. It wouldn't surprise me if they had Production put together mockups of every viable reprint on the list, then selected a subset of them (influenced by the winner, but not bound by anything -- since as we see Verdeloth and Vhati both made it in) after the voting was over.
Like... if Phage had won the voting instead of Akroma, I feel pretty confident that we'd be looking at her in purple threads now instead of the Angel.
Well, note the Rosewater article I mentioned above -- he wrote it on May 2 and said that late-stage development of Ravnica was still going on, five months before the release of the set.
Well, he said that "Development was basically done with it." That indicates to me they weren't really developing it at that point, but basically testing it with the rest of the block to make sure nothing obvious went awry.
being someone who's been involved in smaller game companies during development of other CCGs and board games, i can say with much certainty that as long as the set isn't "out to printer," you can edit, change, swap, and ad things fairly easily (and i've seen it happen to things going out to print same day). the trick here is that WOTC is a much larger company, and those working on Magic's development alone is about as big as many smaller companies's staff on the whole. Magic is not something without deadlines and heavy scouring... but as shown to us in the past... not without last minute "oops" moments like types or Skullclamps. i could easily see these Timeshifted cards as being a last minute addition, even so much so that certain cards from TS got bumped to another expansion as not to make the whole set too overwhelming. but we'll have to wait a week to be sure.
If Wizards planned to put in the winner, they can pull it off. After all if they set the time table, they know when changes are still possible. The rest of the set may have been nearly complete, but that doesn't mean they couldn't make changes.
They have stated that even after the set has been handed off from development, changes have been made. As it has been said, we'll find out on Monday. Hopefully no one believes that Wizards isn't ultimately in control of their own self-imposed deadlines.
Which leads me to ask, why add Ravnican legends? If these were designed to be reprints, then Ravnican legends would be kinda dumb to add for T2 overwriting; plus, there are no cards post Mirrodin, yet Bosh was an option in the You Decide!
Do you think there's something for us yet to be revealed?
Akroma being in TS had nothing to do with the 'You Decide' vote, TS was done long before the voting even started.
That's clearly not true, given that article where they mentioned that one of the "big results" of the vote would be visible "in October." The intent clearly was not "we will reprint whichever Legend wins this vote," but it does seem like the intention was to do something special with whichever Legend won -- for some the option might have been to include them in Time Spiral, for others it might have been a remade version or a special promo or something. We'll probably know for certain after next Monday.
The set comes out in October. It's quite clearly what was meant by that particular hint (especially with Akroma featuring so heavily in the promotion of the set.)
Notice how it's not October yet. Notice how TS is already out.
You can buy TS packs at your local gaming store? News to me.
Seriously - read his article. Please. This has been rehashed several times. The Timeshifted cards were decided (with almost 100% certainty) before the YD! ever came up on the site.
"You guys voted for a card we already planned on reprinting! Rock!" is not a surprise. Opening up Akroma in a pack of a new set in the old card face is a surprise. His timing's a little off because the pre-release would have been a better choice for a timeframe to mention (and Scott probably didn't know that Akroma would be confirmed in an Adult Swim bump when he wrote that) but I think that has to be what he's mentioning.
Also, the You Decide finished in, what, April? The actual lead-time for 100% finalizing the set is less than three months before release. While the set list was probably largely complete at that point, that was certainly early enough to insert a single card into the sheet, especially if there were only a few candidates from the YD they would reprint and they mocked all of them up in advance.
They design sets...how far in advance again? Two years? Or was it one? Either way the set was done long before the vote.
They had to (and did, remember what started the lawsuit?) playtest these cards, they couldn't just 'toss a new one in at the last minute'.
Granted, IIRC, there were many legends in the contest who weren't reprinted in TS, but they were mostly obvious losers, weren't they?
Design is a long process. Generally a set is turned over to development a year before the set is released. Development itself is a process that takes months; then, after it's (largely) concluded, cards
They've discussed before how they can change certain aspects of a cardset late in the process. A few cards were pulled from 9th at the last minute because they spotted Reserved List violations. When the 8th Edition artifact face was too light, by the time Wizards made the decision to darken it (shortly after Mirrodin's release) it was a little too late to squeeze it into Darksteel but there was plenty of time to fit it into Fifth Dawn. Cards have been changed in expert-level expansions shortly before the set goes to print due to development objections.
Until the set is sent for printing, nothing is locked in stone. While the last days of a set's pre-printing life aren't time for huge changes (since the layout department have to create the image of each card's face) they can change little details. Changing one single card for another when you have (presumably) already laid out a face image for it is easy, and could be done the day before the set was printed, if necessary.
Like, it is concievable that Akroma was already in the set, and I wouldn't be utterly surprised if she was (though I don't think it's likely), but I think it's important that people understand that there was in fact enough time to squeeze her in.
Like I said: presumably they had a list of legends that, if they won the You Decide, they'd reprint in TS. They could easily just playtest all of them. (And some would be low-powered enough that such a playtest would be extremely easy.)
I'm not sure what planet you are from but yes, it was a surprise. A HUGE surprise. So much of a surprise that up until a month ago people were still calling an Akroma reprint impossible.
Also - advertising campaigns are designed in advance. Well in advance of the product launch date. I would not be at all 'surprised' if WoTC had just been introduced to some of the print and television ads showing Akroma in April. The same time frame as the YD! and SJ article.
Let me clarify. It's definitely surprising that Akroma was reprinted in general. However, in terms of surprises that are a causal result of the vote, revealing that there was a funny coincidence involving TS reprints is not a big surprise. If Akroma was already in the set, revealing her is not a You Decide!-related surprise, it's just a general-purpose surprise.
See the article I describe above: Rosewater mentions how discussions of how the set will be marketed are in full swing in May. That means the final ads definitely aren't coming back until June or later. Note that for Magic, Wizards isn't operating on a huge marketing level comparable to national TV campaigns for beer or credit cards -- they do some print ads (which I believe are all designed in-house) and very simple 15-second TV ads on a single cable program.
That's not actually true. If you look at the article about Skullclamp, Darksteel was finalized before Mirrodin came out. Mirrodin came out in October, Darksteel in February. That indicates a 6-month finalizing gap. That's also probably why Kataki, War's Wage didn't hit until the very end of Kamigawa block; Raffinity wasn't really a problem until Onslaught rotated out. Basically, April is really late in the cycle; you're in late development by that point. You could put her in, but I'd guess she was already in.
Akroma is a weak card which is very popular, which makes it ideal for reprinting in something like that. Honestly, if I was designing this set and trying to make the purple cards popular, I'd go to cards like Akroma and Phage – weak but seem powerful and appeals to a lot of people. I dislike her, but that doesn't mean everyone does.
Well, note the Rosewater article I mentioned above -- he wrote it on May 2 and said that late-stage development of Ravnica was still going on, five months before the release of the set.
Eh, I still think it was a "which of these?" kind of situation. There's a small number of those 65 Legends which could be considered for reprinting, and I don't believe any one of those would've been unbalanced in the environment. It wouldn't surprise me if they had Production put together mockups of every viable reprint on the list, then selected a subset of them (influenced by the winner, but not bound by anything -- since as we see Verdeloth and Vhati both made it in) after the voting was over.
Like... if Phage had won the voting instead of Akroma, I feel pretty confident that we'd be looking at her in purple threads now instead of the Angel.
Well, he said that "Development was basically done with it." That indicates to me they weren't really developing it at that point, but basically testing it with the rest of the block to make sure nothing obvious went awry.
They have stated that even after the set has been handed off from development, changes have been made. As it has been said, we'll find out on Monday. Hopefully no one believes that Wizards isn't ultimately in control of their own self-imposed deadlines.
I cannot believe that people would vote Hurricane over Earthquake and shame on Wizards for even allowing it, when Squall Line is in TS anyhow.
just my 2 cents, but hey maybe there are a lot of disgruntled green mages that are just tired of Meloku beating their face.
BR
Z
I do think YD! had an effect.
who knows what yet tho
Akroma & Avatar of Woe
vs
Visara and Exalted Angel