And meanwhile, your opponent is denied answers, because they have been milled away into their graveyard. It doesn't affect your field, but it does affect what you can play, what you can draw, and thus, what you can do.
This is a misunderstanding of how decking works. Sure, technically, some of his cards go into the graveyard. In reality, though, it doesn't affect the probabilities at all. Starting from the beginning of the game, your opponent's chance of drawing card X from his deck is exactly the same if you don't mill him, or if you mill him for 30 cards. You could mill it away, or you could accidentally mill down all the cards on top of it and make him draw it next turn. It has no affect at all, in reality, on "what cards you can play" or whatever. It's an illusion -- you say "oh, damn, my Wrath is in there, I could've played that!" Nope. In reality, it doesn't matter, because it's entirely random. 30 cards that were milled aren't any different from 30 cards that were too far down into your library to get drawn this game.
I like this, but I hope it's uncommon, not rare. Brain Freeze can typically mill for 6 to 9 cards without much effort, so a sorcery for 1U or UU that takes 10 cards away seems fair to me.
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I like this, but I hope it's uncommon, not rare. Brain Freeze can typically mill for 6 to 9 cards without much effort, so a sorcery for 1U or UU that takes 10 cards away seems fair to me.
Put a mill 10 in as anything BUT rare, and limited will hurt, esp if there are any other milling cards in the format. Also, while Brain Freeze does get 6 to 9 without much effort, putting it on a scepter isn't game over in 4 turns. Expect Scepter/Chant to make a comback in 1.x if this card is real.
Put a mill 10 in as anything BUT rare, and limited will hurt, esp if there are any other milling cards in the format. Also, while Brain Freeze does get 6 to 9 without much effort, putting it on a scepter isn't game over in 4 turns. Expect Scepter/Chant to make a comback in 1.x if this card is real.
Too much is already sacrificed at the altar of Limited. The card isn't powerful, unique, difficult to understand or quirky enough to merit being rare. If it's uncommon, it will simply alter the way Ravnica sealed and draft is played. I'm confident, limited players will adapt to the card just as they've adapted to every other powerful uncommon that has seen print in the past (eg. Loxodon Warhammer). And I'm not convinced that milling 1/4th of a limited deck is all that powerful. How often ARE you going to draft 3 or 4 copies of any uncommon? (Particularly, if it's a hot uncommon, as you imply).
Edit: I really doubt you'll draft Isochron Scepter in Ravnica limited to imprint a copy of this, so that's not really something to consider. Extended can easily deal with Scepter and anything you might choose to imprint on it.
"You know that a conjurer gets no credit once he has explained his trick; and if I show you too much of my method of working, you will come to the conclusion that I am a very ordinary individual after all." - Sherlock Holmes
Too much is already sacrificed at the altar of Limited. The card isn't powerful, unique, difficult to understand or quirky enough to merit being rare. If it's uncommon, it will simply alter the way Ravnica sealed and draft is played. I'm confident, limited players will adapt to the card just as they've adapted to every other powerful uncommon that has seen print in the past (eg. Loxodon Warhammer). And I'm not convinced that milling 1/4th of a limited deck is all that powerful. How often ARE you going to draft 3 or 4 copies of any uncommon? (Particularly, if it's a hot uncommon, as you imply).
Edit: I really doubt you'll draft Isochron Scepter in Ravnica limited to imprint a copy of this, so that's not really something to consider. Extended can easily deal with Scepter and anything you might choose to imprint on it.
I really don't know how drafters can adjust to a large amount of pretty much unpreventable ten-card decking. Honestly, if this card were in the third set of the block I'd print it as uncommon, because Ravnica-Guildpact-[third set]draft could only supply at most 1 or 2 copies for the table. But Rav-Rav-Rav draft would be a mess with multiples of this uncommon running around. If it is uncommon, the question would be whether there are enough good control creatures and cards to sit back and hit them and then just wait for them to die...a solid draft archetype, but not very fun to play against or difficult to assemble really. Not like Dampen, which was challenging to put together.
All things considered, I could see them making this a UUU sorcery. Three mana so it won't fit in an Isocron, blue-specific to make it even harder to play.
Even like that I'd still use it, though. I was a big fan of Raven Guild Master, and my favorite current combo is simply using expensive arcane spells with Dampen Thoughts spliced with the Blue Kirin in play. I take huge mill effects where I can get 'em.
I'm pretty sure you people are worrying too much about limited. It'd be perfectly fine as an uncommon. Playing this card once is not a huge problem. Most limited games are decided well before 20 turns are done. It's only when multiples come into play that there's an issue. And that really won't crop up too often. Assuming 24 random packs for a draft (yes, this is not entirely accurate) you'd get 2 or more copies in a draft ~20% of the time (2: 15%, 3: 3.9%, 4:.7% or something). And if it's really that insane then it'd be a moderately high draft pick so it might they might not wind up in the same deck anyway (the whole self-balancing thing is a rather nice aspect of draft really).
And then once you manage to get 2 of them you have to draw both.
So your odds of drawing 2 after 15 draws (not counting opening hand) are roughly
2 copies in library: 30%
3 copies in library: 58%
I really don't think putting it at uncommon would be a huge issue.
PS. Dampen was better. It turned every arcane spell into mill 4. You only had to draw 1 copy of dampen for it to be a threat. Here you need to draw two. Plus dampen had fetching goodness via Eerie Procession.
I think people worried about limited are forgetting the pitfalls of drafting this deck:
1) If you go for it but you don't get enough of the mill card, you can't do it and you wasted your picks;
2) If you're playing and you don't draw enough of the mill card, you can't win with it and you wasted your time drawing them.
Dampen was a viable archetype because the cards that enabled the splicing also enabled you to whip through your deck searching for the key card; and also, because of the splice element, it could run off only a single Dampen drawn or even drafted if need be. This card won't enable a similar archetype unless there's a ton of milling cards in Rav.
All things considered, I could see them making this a UUU sorcery. Three mana so it won't fit in an Isocron, blue-specific to make it even harder to play.
Even like that I'd still use it, though. I was a big fan of Raven Guild Master, and my favorite current combo is simply using expensive arcane spells with Dampen Thoughts spliced with the Blue Kirin in play. I take huge mill effects where I can get 'em.
If it's a sorcery it automatically won't fit into an Isochron...all the Isochron comments are reminding me of an old MiseTings card that said "Imprint Wrath of God on this: Win the Prize"
In seriousness though, doesn't Brain Freeze almost always get 9 cards if used correctly? And, Freeze can go the distance in the right deck. This really should cost 2 mana...
Players used to draft 2-3 copies of Dampen Though in that deck, and it was more than enough.
Agreed, but Dampen Thought required additional cards to make it work (more Dampen Thoughts did this well). Barring some special add-on like splice or storm (which I can't see if it IS "Mill 10 for UU/1U/UB"), it becomes more likely that any player that can put it in the deck (and if it's UB guild, that would be black mages and blue mages) WILL take it, if for no other reason than to prevent the possibility of doubles. Dampen Thought made the rounds because not only did you have to be playing blue, but you needed a good number of splice cards to boot. As an uncommon, it will be much less likely to see multiples of this mill card unless they're 1st-3rd pick.
And I completely agree with the speculation that this will be:
Murphy's Milligan U/B U/B
Sorcery (Uncommon)
Target player puts the top ten cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
i don't agree that this would be black/blue or the UB guild mana (though the guild mana version would be more powerful, since it would give access to mono-black decks), to me this is a pure blue ability. actually in a wizards article today they pointed out this distinction. black gets the "search and destroy" library attack, while blue gets the "cut it down" attack (classic milling).
what i'd really like to see is keywording the ability:
cardname
1U
instant
mill 10 (target player puts the top 10 cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard)
which would lead to future uses without reminder text:
creaturename
1UU
creature - human pirate
when creaturename deals damage to a player, mill 5
1/2
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i don't agree that this would be black/blue or the UB guild mana (though the guild mana version would be more powerful, since it would give access to mono-black decks), to me this is a pure blue ability. actually in a wizards article today they pointed out this distinction. black gets the "search and destroy" library attack, while blue gets the "cut it down" attack (classic milling).
Good points.
And I would also like to see the keyword, but I'm not holding my breath. (Aww, who am I kidding? As long as you guys can't prove otherwise, I AM holding my breath. Recently, keywords have been popping up like gophers or crocodiles on those little bop'em games.) However, I still think that they'll stay away from instant to prevent Scepter abuse in other formats (and no one needs to remind me that other formats already have ways to prevent Scepter abuse, I know).
Murphy's Milligan UU
Sorcery
Mill 10 (Target player puts the top ten cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.) Hope you weren't looking forward to that thought.
I've never been a big fan of mill, becuase it doesn't really effect the game in any way
I've never been a big fan of Damage, because it doesn't really effect the game in anyway.
I congratulate you Dasherrif on Sarcasm that no one in this thread has picked up on. Therefore, I sig you!
anyways, on topic here. I've always been a fan of milling cards. I'm surprised no one has brought up Book Burning , yet. This card has the same "cost" (except its red) as this new card...but it has that little damage clause in there...so this new card seems reasonable.
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I congratulate you Dasherrif on Sarcasm that no one in this thread has picked up on. Therefore, I sig you!
anyways, on topic here. I've always been a fan of milling cards. I'm surprised no one has brought up Book Burning , yet. This card has the same "cost" (except its red) as this new card...but it has that little damage clause in there...so this new card seems reasonable.
Except for the fact that book burning is 6 cards, gave any player instant threshold, and in a set full of graveyard matters cards.
anyways, on topic here. I've always been a fan of milling cards. I'm surprised no one has brought up Book Burning , yet. This card has the same "cost" (except its red) as this new card...but it has that little damage clause in there...so this new card seems reasonable.
Except, the "punisher" spells had effects that were more powerful than would be seen at that cost (see Breaking Point), and 10 cards for 1C is considerably better than 6 cards.
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a) You have not posted the entire card, but rather a teaser in order to evade detection/NDA.
b) You do not have the entire card. This is what I consider most likely.
c) MaRo is bat**** insane.
One thing's for sure, if there isn't a huge drawback on that card, something's going to be bat**** insane using Twincast and every piece of recursion that might be in Standard at the time.
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I think this is something much powerful in limited, so I think it'll be rare, just to prevent players from getting multiple copies. In draft it would be very easy to make a mill deck with 2-3 copies, after all, if you can mill 10 cards that easily, imagine the impact of this in a 40-card format.
Players used to draft 2-3 copies of Dampen Though in that deck, and it was more than enough.
If they were exceedingly lucky. And the thing about Dampen Thought was that you only needed to draw one, because you would never hard cast it unless it was for the win. Even if you manage to draft 2-3 of these, chances are you'll only see one in any given game. Even if you see two, your opponent still has 13 turns to kill you which is not at all uncommon in limited. Don't believe the hype folks (unless it's a common)!
Players used to draft 2-3 copies of Dampen Though in that deck, and it was more than enough.
But the power of Dampen Thoughts comes from splicing it onto other arcane cards, so you could end up using it 3 or 4 times before losing it somehow (if at all). Compared to that, a card that mills 10 and that's it isn't that impressive. Once cast, you'll just have to pray to draw the second one before your oponent's creatures beat you down.
Honestly, this is a better constructed card than a limited one. No real reason to make it a rare.
"You know that a conjurer gets no credit once he has explained his trick; and if I show you too much of my method of working, you will come to the conclusion that I am a very ordinary individual after all." - Sherlock Holmes
Honestly, this is a better constructed card than a limited one. No real reason to make it a rare.
I think its a slightly above average Limited card...think about this:
40 cards in a normal limited deck:
7 drawn cards for the hand, another for your opponents next turn (unless you use acceleration and played rather than drew),
32 cards down to 22 cards, that seriously limits (no pun intended) your opponents options, because you have about a 1 in 3 chance of hitting a power card. I vote Rare, if it's an uncommon I'm hate drafting everyone I see.
And I do agree with you, it is better in constructed, but only marginally.
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I think its a slightly above average Limited card...think about this:
40 cards in a normal limited deck:
7 drawn cards for the hand, another for your opponents next turn (unless you use acceleration and played rather than drew),
32 cards down to 22 cards, that seriously limits (no pun intended) your opponents options, because you have about a 1 in 3 chance of hitting a power card. I vote Rare, if it's an uncommon I'm hate drafting everyone I see.
And I do agree with you, it is better in constructed, but only marginally.
milling only matters when milling the last card, just like damage only matters when its the last point.
See, I disagree, if by milling, I rid my opponent of key cards, I've done my job.
When you mill someone's library, you're effectively giving them information; information on what cards they -won't draw-. You're actually helping them a little, because they'll have a better idea what cards they -will- draw.
It's irrelevant that your putting the cards from their library in the graveyard. Cards in the library are useless until drawn or fetched; you might remove some of their key cards, but they'll simply draw other key cards from what's left of their library.
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This is a misunderstanding of how decking works. Sure, technically, some of his cards go into the graveyard. In reality, though, it doesn't affect the probabilities at all. Starting from the beginning of the game, your opponent's chance of drawing card X from his deck is exactly the same if you don't mill him, or if you mill him for 30 cards. You could mill it away, or you could accidentally mill down all the cards on top of it and make him draw it next turn. It has no affect at all, in reality, on "what cards you can play" or whatever. It's an illusion -- you say "oh, damn, my Wrath is in there, I could've played that!" Nope. In reality, it doesn't matter, because it's entirely random. 30 cards that were milled aren't any different from 30 cards that were too far down into your library to get drawn this game.
Put a mill 10 in as anything BUT rare, and limited will hurt, esp if there are any other milling cards in the format. Also, while Brain Freeze does get 6 to 9 without much effort, putting it on a scepter isn't game over in 4 turns. Expect Scepter/Chant to make a comback in 1.x if this card is real.
Too much is already sacrificed at the altar of Limited. The card isn't powerful, unique, difficult to understand or quirky enough to merit being rare. If it's uncommon, it will simply alter the way Ravnica sealed and draft is played. I'm confident, limited players will adapt to the card just as they've adapted to every other powerful uncommon that has seen print in the past (eg. Loxodon Warhammer). And I'm not convinced that milling 1/4th of a limited deck is all that powerful. How often ARE you going to draft 3 or 4 copies of any uncommon? (Particularly, if it's a hot uncommon, as you imply).
Edit: I really doubt you'll draft Isochron Scepter in Ravnica limited to imprint a copy of this, so that's not really something to consider. Extended can easily deal with Scepter and anything you might choose to imprint on it.
I really don't know how drafters can adjust to a large amount of pretty much unpreventable ten-card decking. Honestly, if this card were in the third set of the block I'd print it as uncommon, because Ravnica-Guildpact-[third set]draft could only supply at most 1 or 2 copies for the table. But Rav-Rav-Rav draft would be a mess with multiples of this uncommon running around. If it is uncommon, the question would be whether there are enough good control creatures and cards to sit back and hit them and then just wait for them to die...a solid draft archetype, but not very fun to play against or difficult to assemble really. Not like Dampen, which was challenging to put together.
Even like that I'd still use it, though. I was a big fan of Raven Guild Master, and my favorite current combo is simply using expensive arcane spells with Dampen Thoughts spliced with the Blue Kirin in play. I take huge mill effects where I can get 'em.
And then once you manage to get 2 of them you have to draw both.
So your odds of drawing 2 after 15 draws (not counting opening hand) are roughly
2 copies in library: 30%
3 copies in library: 58%
I really don't think putting it at uncommon would be a huge issue.
PS. Dampen was better. It turned every arcane spell into mill 4. You only had to draw 1 copy of dampen for it to be a threat. Here you need to draw two. Plus dampen had fetching goodness via Eerie Procession.
as long as there isn't other mill in the set
1) If you go for it but you don't get enough of the mill card, you can't do it and you wasted your picks;
2) If you're playing and you don't draw enough of the mill card, you can't win with it and you wasted your time drawing them.
Dampen was a viable archetype because the cards that enabled the splicing also enabled you to whip through your deck searching for the key card; and also, because of the splice element, it could run off only a single Dampen drawn or even drafted if need be. This card won't enable a similar archetype unless there's a ton of milling cards in Rav.
If it's a sorcery it automatically won't fit into an Isochron...all the Isochron comments are reminding me of an old MiseTings card that said "Imprint Wrath of God on this: Win the Prize"
In seriousness though, doesn't Brain Freeze almost always get 9 cards if used correctly? And, Freeze can go the distance in the right deck. This really should cost 2 mana...
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Agreed, but Dampen Thought required additional cards to make it work (more Dampen Thoughts did this well). Barring some special add-on like splice or storm (which I can't see if it IS "Mill 10 for UU/1U/UB"), it becomes more likely that any player that can put it in the deck (and if it's UB guild, that would be black mages and blue mages) WILL take it, if for no other reason than to prevent the possibility of doubles. Dampen Thought made the rounds because not only did you have to be playing blue, but you needed a good number of splice cards to boot. As an uncommon, it will be much less likely to see multiples of this mill card unless they're 1st-3rd pick.
And I completely agree with the speculation that this will be:
Murphy's Milligan U/B U/B
Sorcery (Uncommon)
Target player puts the top ten cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
what i'd really like to see is keywording the ability:
cardname
1U
instant
mill 10 (target player puts the top 10 cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard)
which would lead to future uses without reminder text:
creaturename
1UU
creature - human pirate
when creaturename deals damage to a player, mill 5
1/2
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Good points.
And I would also like to see the keyword, but I'm not holding my breath. (Aww, who am I kidding? As long as you guys can't prove otherwise, I AM holding my breath. Recently, keywords have been popping up like gophers or crocodiles on those little bop'em games.) However, I still think that they'll stay away from instant to prevent Scepter abuse in other formats (and no one needs to remind me that other formats already have ways to prevent Scepter abuse, I know).
Murphy's Milligan UU
Sorcery
Mill 10 (Target player puts the top ten cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard.)
Hope you weren't looking forward to that thought.
I congratulate you Dasherrif on Sarcasm that no one in this thread has picked up on. Therefore, I sig you!
anyways, on topic here. I've always been a fan of milling cards. I'm surprised no one has brought up Book Burning , yet. This card has the same "cost" (except its red) as this new card...but it has that little damage clause in there...so this new card seems reasonable.
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Except for the fact that book burning is 6 cards, gave any player instant threshold, and in a set full of graveyard matters cards.
but besides that, they seem pretty similar.
Except, the "punisher" spells had effects that were more powerful than would be seen at that cost (see Breaking Point), and 10 cards for 1C is considerably better than 6 cards.
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a) You have not posted the entire card, but rather a teaser in order to evade detection/NDA.
b) You do not have the entire card. This is what I consider most likely.
c) MaRo is bat**** insane.
One thing's for sure, if there isn't a huge drawback on that card, something's going to be bat**** insane using Twincast and every piece of recursion that might be in Standard at the time.
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Don't you love when people make such claims and are wrong?
If they were exceedingly lucky. And the thing about Dampen Thought was that you only needed to draw one, because you would never hard cast it unless it was for the win. Even if you manage to draft 2-3 of these, chances are you'll only see one in any given game. Even if you see two, your opponent still has 13 turns to kill you which is not at all uncommon in limited. Don't believe the hype folks (unless it's a common)!
But the power of Dampen Thoughts comes from splicing it onto other arcane cards, so you could end up using it 3 or 4 times before losing it somehow (if at all). Compared to that, a card that mills 10 and that's it isn't that impressive. Once cast, you'll just have to pray to draw the second one before your oponent's creatures beat you down.
Honestly, this is a better constructed card than a limited one. No real reason to make it a rare.
I think its a slightly above average Limited card...think about this:
40 cards in a normal limited deck:
7 drawn cards for the hand, another for your opponents next turn (unless you use acceleration and played rather than drew),
32 cards down to 22 cards, that seriously limits (no pun intended) your opponents options, because you have about a 1 in 3 chance of hitting a power card. I vote Rare, if it's an uncommon I'm hate drafting everyone I see.
And I do agree with you, it is better in constructed, but only marginally.
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milling only matters when milling the last card, just like damage only matters when its the last point.
As speculated, a 1U sorcery would be effective. A low casting blue sorcery, with a kick? That doesn't happen very often.
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See, I disagree, if by milling, I rid my opponent of key cards, I've done my job.
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When you mill someone's library, you're effectively giving them information; information on what cards they -won't draw-. You're actually helping them a little, because they'll have a better idea what cards they -will- draw.
It's irrelevant that your putting the cards from their library in the graveyard. Cards in the library are useless until drawn or fetched; you might remove some of their key cards, but they'll simply draw other key cards from what's left of their library.