So, this is a bad card. For the record, milling strategies will never be competitive. They just don't do anything until they've already milled away 59 cards. The only card that matters when you are milling someone down is the 60th.
It isn't even a matter of the speed with which you mill them (arc slogger anyone?), milling your opponent does not keep them from playing their own game, and winning.
Take the example above, Arc-Slogger. That creature milled its controller for generally between thirty to fourty cards in a single turn. And yet the deck didn't kill itself?
Why not?
Because milling 40 cards from your deck (leaving you with seven) doesn't make you any less likely to win the game, it is just as likely to give you an answer as it is to take it away.
So yeah, the card is bad. I am fairly confident that it will never be a component piece of any control strategy deck in the coming type 2 seasons. Combo strategies are notably excluded, because of their erratic nature. But a milling strategy will not win games in constructed magic.
People seem to be mmissing the usefulness of this in Standard, methinks. With almost every deck running Sensei's Divining Top, this is like saying "Stack this!" If they draw a card with the Top before this resolves, they don't have the Top anymore. It remains to be seen whether a U/B Control deck could become viable, but I see places this could work, even if only as a sideboard card.
It's a cool idea, but unfortunately splashing black in the ire deck would make the mana completely unplayable, and it would just take a lot from an already weak archetype.
Wow, I completely forgot that U/B Reanimator was already a deck on the brink. This will definitely make it better.
The only thing that will make reanimator better is a new (and decent) reanimation spell.
As it is, we just have Life/Death and Goryo's Vengence below 4 mana. Hardly what I would call efficent. Maybe if there is another 1 or 2cc spell in the next set, the deck might move into a playable region.
So, this is a bad card. For the record, milling strategies will never be competitive. They just don't do anything until they've already milled away 59 cards. The only card that matters when you are milling someone down is the 60th.
Allow me to play Devil's Advocate here -- everything you said about milling could just as easily be applied to life. The philosophy of a control deck is that only the last point of life matters. The first 19 life are meaningless, as long as you can protect the last one.
Also, damaging your opponent doesn't affect their game plan any more or less than milling them. Damaging an opponent doesn't deplete any resource aside from their life total, just as milling only depletes their library.
Your logic regarding Arc-Slogger is somewhat flawed. What makes the Slogger powerful is, to use Chad Ellis terminology, that the library is not the "scarce resource." No one is attacking your library, so losing cards from it isn't really an issue. If Arc-Slogger read "R, Pay 4 Life: Deal 2..." it'd be a hell of a lot more risky. However, Arc-Slogger's current incarnation would be awful against an opposing Mill deck.
I'd say the fundamental flaw with milling is that it has no sense of tempo in it's current forms. Whereas a creature deck can continue to add creatures to its board, doing more and more damage each turn, a mill deck's strategy is more like a straight-ahead burn deck. It has to rely on singular spells to do its work, and it can't build any momentum. So, this card is relatively useless in a vaccuum, but if the "U/B Guild" has a milling theme, it could be a powerful tool.
Permission + Bounce + Elimination to control the board, U/B Mill spell + Recurrsion as the win condition. I'm sure Blue and Black have a few ways to get spells back from their graveyard to their library. Being costed at 2 means you can cast it even as a sorcery and have mana left over to counter. Heck at worst you can always Reminisce your 4 Mill Spells back into your library.
I personally think that this card could be abused very badly if a decent recurrsion tool is put into Rav. By itself however, it's not that bad. Pretty nasty in combo with Traumatise though.
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So, this is a bad card. For the record, milling strategies will never be competitive. They just don't do anything until they've already milled away 59 cards. The only card that matters when you are milling someone down is the 60th.
It isn't even a matter of the speed with which you mill them (arc slogger anyone?), milling your opponent does not keep them from playing their own game, and winning.
Take the example above, Arc-Slogger. That creature milled its controller for generally between thirty to fourty cards in a single turn. And yet the deck didn't kill itself?
Why not?
Because milling 40 cards from your deck (leaving you with seven) doesn't make you any less likely to win the game, it is just as likely to give you an answer as it is to take it away.
So yeah, the card is bad. I am fairly confident that it will never be a component piece of any control strategy deck in the coming type 2 seasons. Combo strategies are notably excluded, because of their erratic nature. But a milling strategy will not win games in constructed magic.
I think you may be stating this a bit too strongly; I have friends who win with Mesmeric Orb decks somewhat frequently. It's not on the pro tour level or anything, but I don't see why some form of milling can't win. I certainly used to win with Brain Freeze on an Isochron sometimes. Your overall point is correct, though; milling doesn't actually hurt your opponent's strategy, only their face. There are no real threats in a mill deck that interact with your opponent's threats. The best thing about a milling deck, though, is that it stops your opponent's creature-removal cards from doing anything at all.
Honestly, I think the only reason to play this card in constructed is to do it to yourself. It interacts well with Sensei's Divining Top because it gives you a shuffle, and it stocks your graveyard with stuff. It gives you threshold for 2 mana, and you can flash stuff back that you mill with it. If Mortivore is good (which it could be in the current creature-heavy format), this could be a boon to it. But this is not great. I sincerely hope it's not actually rare...it's really boring.
Tune into "How to Make Friends and Influence People" next week, when EclipseAgent will tell us how to persuade your Muslim friends to eat a ham sandwich!
The good thing about milling is that the opponent is generally not equipped against it : who runs Reminisce main-deck ? It also usually makes it easy to run board sweepers, not relying on critters (cf Wrath of God + Millstone of old). It's not good today and that card alone would make a difference but with proper control tools...
A good number of Vintage and Legacy decks maindeck or sideboard Gaea's Blessing for Brain Freeze matchups. It would be interesting to see something like that in Standard or Block. Maybe they'll make a functional reprint of Blessing, since the name doesn't fit this plane. It wouldn't surprise me in the least, and if they do, expect it to need to be played.
ooo, funness.
cheap, easy way to remove a mass amount of cards... if they added grindstone to this set, then card milling would be the name of the game... *Crosses fingers for grindstone :P*
I know. Tog doesn't want this.
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It isn't even a matter of the speed with which you mill them (arc slogger anyone?), milling your opponent does not keep them from playing their own game, and winning.
Take the example above, Arc-Slogger. That creature milled its controller for generally between thirty to fourty cards in a single turn. And yet the deck didn't kill itself?
Why not?
Because milling 40 cards from your deck (leaving you with seven) doesn't make you any less likely to win the game, it is just as likely to give you an answer as it is to take it away.
So yeah, the card is bad. I am fairly confident that it will never be a component piece of any control strategy deck in the coming type 2 seasons. Combo strategies are notably excluded, because of their erratic nature. But a milling strategy will not win games in constructed magic.
how terrible
It's a cool idea, but unfortunately splashing black in the ire deck would make the mana completely unplayable, and it would just take a lot from an already weak archetype.
Wow, I completely forgot that U/B Reanimator was already a deck on the brink. This will definitely make it better.
The only thing that will make reanimator better is a new (and decent) reanimation spell.
As it is, we just have Life/Death and Goryo's Vengence below 4 mana. Hardly what I would call efficent. Maybe if there is another 1 or 2cc spell in the next set, the deck might move into a playable region.
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Allow me to play Devil's Advocate here -- everything you said about milling could just as easily be applied to life. The philosophy of a control deck is that only the last point of life matters. The first 19 life are meaningless, as long as you can protect the last one.
Also, damaging your opponent doesn't affect their game plan any more or less than milling them. Damaging an opponent doesn't deplete any resource aside from their life total, just as milling only depletes their library.
Your logic regarding Arc-Slogger is somewhat flawed. What makes the Slogger powerful is, to use Chad Ellis terminology, that the library is not the "scarce resource." No one is attacking your library, so losing cards from it isn't really an issue. If Arc-Slogger read "R, Pay 4 Life: Deal 2..." it'd be a hell of a lot more risky. However, Arc-Slogger's current incarnation would be awful against an opposing Mill deck.
I'd say the fundamental flaw with milling is that it has no sense of tempo in it's current forms. Whereas a creature deck can continue to add creatures to its board, doing more and more damage each turn, a mill deck's strategy is more like a straight-ahead burn deck. It has to rely on singular spells to do its work, and it can't build any momentum. So, this card is relatively useless in a vaccuum, but if the "U/B Guild" has a milling theme, it could be a powerful tool.
I personally think that this card could be abused very badly if a decent recurrsion tool is put into Rav. By itself however, it's not that bad. Pretty nasty in combo with Traumatise though.
I think you may be stating this a bit too strongly; I have friends who win with Mesmeric Orb decks somewhat frequently. It's not on the pro tour level or anything, but I don't see why some form of milling can't win. I certainly used to win with Brain Freeze on an Isochron sometimes. Your overall point is correct, though; milling doesn't actually hurt your opponent's strategy, only their face. There are no real threats in a mill deck that interact with your opponent's threats. The best thing about a milling deck, though, is that it stops your opponent's creature-removal cards from doing anything at all.
Honestly, I think the only reason to play this card in constructed is to do it to yourself. It interacts well with Sensei's Divining Top because it gives you a shuffle, and it stocks your graveyard with stuff. It gives you threshold for 2 mana, and you can flash stuff back that you mill with it. If Mortivore is good (which it could be in the current creature-heavy format), this could be a boon to it. But this is not great. I sincerely hope it's not actually rare...it's really boring.
Also back in the day Mill Decks did win.
could be, seeing as how they reprinted Battle of Wits
A good number of Vintage and Legacy decks maindeck or sideboard Gaea's Blessing for Brain Freeze matchups. It would be interesting to see something like that in Standard or Block. Maybe they'll make a functional reprint of Blessing, since the name doesn't fit this plane. It wouldn't surprise me in the least, and if they do, expect it to need to be played.
cheap, easy way to remove a mass amount of cards... if they added grindstone to this set, then card milling would be the name of the game... *Crosses fingers for grindstone :P*
Papershredder
UB
Sorcery
You have threshold.
Are you sure it's not target opponant?