Since smaller sets don't usually have two-color land cycles, won't RAV need 10 duals?
Umm... Apocalypse!
I mean, talking about Ravnica always needs to compare to Invasion in some ways, even when they are not meant to be the same, we are talking about a "gold" block, and Invasion is the only one there is...
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"Será cuando, cuando sea Y mi cabeza caiga Cuando mi sangre corra
Cuando a tu memoria llegue Y domine en la penumbra O el caos termine..."
This is where i cue the "Obligatory point to the Speculation Forum"
see: Here, Here, or Here, for Rav Land speculation.
It shocks me that it took until post 41 for that to be spoken about...
I love the looks of that Flame Zealot...Spoiling looks like fun (b/g spirit got a weapon) and Peel seems like filler. Mutate sounds like fun, and 2 cycles of lands should be grand...3...limits the set
Good point - take the dual land speculation to the speculation forum. The only thing that needs to be said here is that there is confirmed dual lands in RAV... but we pretty much already knew that.
As for "Spoiling" requiring that you spend black mana if you have swamps, that's not true. Say you have 2 Forests and 2 Swamps. Spoiling costs 2GG. You can cast it for 1BGG, BBGG, or 2GG, unless I'm mistaken. The comprehensive rules don't seem to say anything about being forced to spend coloured mana as coloured mana... but maybe that's just implied. I always thought you could use any colour of mana as colourless mana. Can we get a rules expert?
I think colored mana stays colored... "Generic" mana can be played by any color, or colorless, but even if you can just declare your mana colorless for some stupid reason, that's so counterintuitive they'd change it to streamline this sort of spell/make it interesting.
So then, sometimes ":symtap: : Add to your mana pool" is more powerful than ":symtap: : Add one mana of any colour to your mana pool". That's kind of disturbing.
how do you figure? if you don't want the bleed effect, you could just use non-black mana--there's four other colors you could use in that case, last I checked
I agree. You can't just choose to make it generic (or some other colour). The wording of the card doesn't say "If...you may...". If you spend black mana on it, you probably can't not use the -1/-1 ability any more than you can force FTK to not shoot anything.
The question I asked was this. If you have a bunch of saprolings in play, can you play Spoiling without killing all your creatures?
Someone said "you can't just choose to make it generic" and someone else said "colored mana stays colored".
If that's true, then what I said was correct:
Sometimes ":symtap:: Add to your mana pool" is more powerful than ":symtap:: Add one mana of any colour to your mana pool".
Actually, it isn't. Since Ravnica is about color pairs, only one of the colors should typically cause a "bleed" effect - and in that case, the any-color producer is able to produce four other colors that won't cause bleeding. So it's still better than colorless producer.
More specifically, at least ONE color will never cause bleeding - the original color of the spell!
All I can say is that I'm glad Eternal Witness is rotating out. Witness + Peel from Reality = buyback unsummon for 5 mana. Not very fun to play against. Peel is going to be nuts with CIP creatures, but even without them it's a good 2 for 1 spell, save your ceature, bounce his and all for 2 mana.
"spoiling" is a great card. Fits right into Green and Black's shared landkill ability and provides unregeratable weenie control for 4 mana.
the W/R stampede beserker is solid and might be the turn 4 or 5 finisher in a W/R weenie burn horde, attacking with 3 or 4 other small creatures. It'll fill a similar role to Clickslither. Might be a little over costed to make it really competitive. If it gave +2/+2, or even +2/+1 instead of +1/+1 and haste it'd be great. Giving Haste to creatures already in play is a little redundant.
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I'm old school, about as OLD school as they get. think 4th Edition/Ice Age old school. Unfortunatley in the "Real world" you cant Incinerate your bank manager and sadly now I have joined the ranks of the older population, and my time is taken up by things like reasearching Mortgage Refinance Rates and where to get the best possible mortgage quotes. I have however discovered the joys of Online Forex Trading which at least allows me to keep the bills in check!
Good point - take the dual land speculation to the speculation forum. The only thing that needs to be said here is that there is confirmed dual lands in RAV... but we pretty much already knew that.
As for "Spoiling" requiring that you spend black mana if you have swamps, that's not true. Say you have 2 Forests and 2 Swamps. Spoiling costs 2GG. You can cast it for 1BGG, BBGG, or 2GG, unless I'm mistaken. The comprehensive rules don't seem to say anything about being forced to spend coloured mana as coloured mana... but maybe that's just implied. I always thought you could use any colour of mana as colourless mana. Can we get a rules expert?
I'm a rules junkie, although not a judge
This is covered under section 405 of the comprehensive rules (static abilities) it's just looking for what kind of mana you used to play the card. So it's like kicker, but... you always have to play 4 mana for the spell.
Going over section 409 (Mana costs, etc) It really doesn't care, and kinda implies it. Colourless mana is just "whatever" it doesn't matter, the only time a land that says T :Add 1 to your mana pool. is better than one that says T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Is when a card says something along the lines of "colorless mana for this" otherwise.... there's no difference at all
Erm, to clarify, mana stays the same color, even in the pool ^^ (no matter how you use it)
Thanks for the info! I kind of like the Zealot the best, just because I like that color combination. I hope they throw a lot of support towards W/R. The other cards are cool as well, and from reading this thread, I see there are a lot of uses for the blue one.
Maybe the common or uncommon land cycle will have the Mutate mechanic. This would definitely help with smoothing the mana in Ravnica. You drew the wrong color? No problem, just mutate it into the right type. Kind of like landcycling, except only printed on certain lands. I wonder if you discard the card or shuffle it back into your library?
Arg, such a hard question to understand, I guess. I'll simplify it as much as possible.
I have in my mana pool, nothing in play, and SuperBomb is the only card in my hand.
SuperBomb -
Artifact
If any was spent to play SuperBomb, you lose the game. Otherwise, you win the game.
Do I win the game, or do I lose the game?
You lose the game. Black mana can be used as generic, but is still black. I don't see why it would be otherwise.
This doens't make a land that taps for colorless better than a land that taps for any color like you said in an earlier post... you could always chose a color that isn't black.
You lose the game. Black mana can be used as generic, but is still black. I don't see why it would be otherwise.
This doens't make a land that taps for colorless better than a land that taps for any color like you said in an earlier post... you could always chose a color that isn't black.
I guess that solves it then - bleed spells might "accidentally" do bad stuff. For example, Spoiling might kill your own creatures.
Oh, well a land that taps for can be better than a land that taps for :symb:, in this case. Bleed makes colourless mana good. Weird.
I know you got the answer, but I want to explain it by the rules:
104.3b Numeral symbols (such as {1}) are generic mana costs and represent an amount of mana that can be paid with any color of, or colorless, mana.
As you can see, it can be payed with colored mana and that doesn't make it colorless. In order to pay "Colorless" mana - You need to have colorless mana in the first place.
The effect checks if any of that mana was black. If it did you get the second part of the spell.
If for example the "Guild Mana" (B/G) counts as and (As the multicolor spells work), and you pay the spell as :symw::symw::symg:(B/G), you get the second part too, since you spent black mana.
Of course, we will know that only when the Ravnica rules will be published...
I hope that's the answer (Plus bonus) you were looking for.
Good point - take the dual land speculation to the speculation forum. The only thing that needs to be said here is that there is confirmed dual lands in RAV... but we pretty much already knew that.
As for "Spoiling" requiring that you spend black mana if you have swamps, that's not true. Say you have 2 Forests and 2 Swamps. Spoiling costs 2GG. You can cast it for 1BGG, BBGG, or 2GG, unless I'm mistaken. The comprehensive rules don't seem to say anything about being forced to spend coloured mana as coloured mana... but maybe that's just implied. I always thought you could use any colour of mana as colourless mana. Can we get a rules expert?
When you pay for a spell that costs 2GG, and you create BBGG to pay for this, and you spend BBGG, the BB you spent is spent to fulfill the 2 requirement -- but you still spent BB.
This is the difference between "colorless" and "generic." "Colorless" is a category of mana. "Generic" is a category of mana costs. This spell has a generic part in its cost, of 2, and you could spend colorless mana to fulfill this generic cost ... but you could also spend colored mana to fulfill this generic cost.
When you pay the BBGG for the spell, which costs 2GG, you still spent black mana. You simply spent it on a generic cost.
If for example the "Guild Mana" (B/G) counts as and (As the multicolor spells work), and you pay the spell as :symw::symw::symg:(B/G), you get the second part too, since you spent black mana.
To me, that is easily the most interesting part of the new mana types.
All in all, spoiling will be great in limited, depending on speed i think it MAY see play in constructed.
Peel is a all out good card. It is a very good combat trick/utility piece for use with 187 creatures.
And lastly, the W/ creature is fun, and may see play in a reanimation style deck in extended, depending.
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Of course that falls into the lines of that card Marek suggested.
Umm... Apocalypse!
I mean, talking about Ravnica always needs to compare to Invasion in some ways, even when they are not meant to be the same, we are talking about a "gold" block, and Invasion is the only one there is...
Y mi cabeza caiga
Cuando mi sangre corra
Cuando a tu memoria llegue
Y domine en la penumbra
O el caos termine..."
—Sigma/Lambda
see: Here, Here, or Here, for Rav Land speculation.
It shocks me that it took until post 41 for that to be spoken about...
I love the looks of that Flame Zealot...Spoiling looks like fun (b/g spirit got a weapon) and Peel seems like filler. Mutate sounds like fun, and 2 cycles of lands should be grand...3...limits the set
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As for "Spoiling" requiring that you spend black mana if you have swamps, that's not true. Say you have 2 Forests and 2 Swamps. Spoiling costs 2GG. You can cast it for 1BGG, BBGG, or 2GG, unless I'm mistaken. The comprehensive rules don't seem to say anything about being forced to spend coloured mana as coloured mana... but maybe that's just implied. I always thought you could use any colour of mana as colourless mana. Can we get a rules expert?
.
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I agree. You can't just choose to make it generic (or some other colour). The wording of the card doesn't say "If...you may...". If you spend black mana on it, you probably can't not use the -1/-1 ability any more than you can force FTK to not shoot anything.
I'm loving these cards. Very Invasion-esque (and Invasion is my favorite block).
Some random predictions (for the block):
Only creatures will have "guild mana" type casting costs.
A variant of Pernicious Deed will be introduced.
Spiritmonger will be reprinted.
OK, now I'm just making stuff up. I'm serious about the guild mana though.
Your first prediction might be pretty valid, as it fits the flavor well, IMO.
But we shall see with that.
The other two, I am SO sick of hearing.
Neither is going to happen.
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The question I asked was this. If you have a bunch of saprolings in play, can you play Spoiling without killing all your creatures?
Someone said "you can't just choose to make it generic" and someone else said "colored mana stays colored".
If that's true, then what I said was correct:
Sometimes ":symtap: : Add to your mana pool" is more powerful than ":symtap: : Add one mana of any colour to your mana pool".
.
Actually, it isn't. Since Ravnica is about color pairs, only one of the colors should typically cause a "bleed" effect - and in that case, the any-color producer is able to produce four other colors that won't cause bleeding. So it's still better than colorless producer.
More specifically, at least ONE color will never cause bleeding - the original color of the spell!
.
"spoiling" is a great card. Fits right into Green and Black's shared landkill ability and provides unregeratable weenie control for 4 mana.
the W/R stampede beserker is solid and might be the turn 4 or 5 finisher in a W/R weenie burn horde, attacking with 3 or 4 other small creatures. It'll fill a similar role to Clickslither. Might be a little over costed to make it really competitive. If it gave +2/+2, or even +2/+1 instead of +1/+1 and haste it'd be great. Giving Haste to creatures already in play is a little redundant.
I'm a rules junkie, although not a judge
This is covered under section 405 of the comprehensive rules (static abilities) it's just looking for what kind of mana you used to play the card. So it's like kicker, but... you always have to play 4 mana for the spell.
Going over section 409 (Mana costs, etc) It really doesn't care, and kinda implies it. Colourless mana is just "whatever" it doesn't matter, the only time a land that says T :Add 1 to your mana pool. is better than one that says T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Is when a card says something along the lines of "colorless mana for this" otherwise.... there's no difference at all
Erm, to clarify, mana stays the same color, even in the pool ^^ (no matter how you use it)
*aside* mmm..... multiplayer rules...... fun
Maybe the common or uncommon land cycle will have the Mutate mechanic. This would definitely help with smoothing the mana in Ravnica. You drew the wrong color? No problem, just mutate it into the right type. Kind of like landcycling, except only printed on certain lands. I wonder if you discard the card or shuffle it back into your library?
I have in my mana pool, nothing in play, and SuperBomb is the only card in my hand.
SuperBomb -
Artifact
If any was spent to play SuperBomb, you lose the game. Otherwise, you win the game.
Do I win the game, or do I lose the game?
.
You lose the game. Black mana can be used as generic, but is still black. I don't see why it would be otherwise.
This doens't make a land that taps for colorless better than a land that taps for any color like you said in an earlier post... you could always chose a color that isn't black.
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I guess that solves it then - bleed spells might "accidentally" do bad stuff. For example, Spoiling might kill your own creatures.
Oh, well a land that taps for can be better than a land that taps for :symb:, in this case. Bleed makes colourless mana good. Weird.
.
If mana lost its colour when used for paying generic mana costs, Sunburst wouldn't work at all...
As you can see, it can be payed with colored mana and that doesn't make it colorless. In order to pay "Colorless" mana - You need to have colorless mana in the first place.
The effect checks if any of that mana was black. If it did you get the second part of the spell.
If for example the "Guild Mana" (B/G) counts as and (As the multicolor spells work), and you pay the spell as :symw::symw::symg:(B/G), you get the second part too, since you spent black mana.
Of course, we will know that only when the Ravnica rules will be published...
I hope that's the answer (Plus bonus) you were looking for.
When you pay for a spell that costs 2GG, and you create BBGG to pay for this, and you spend BBGG, the BB you spent is spent to fulfill the 2 requirement -- but you still spent BB.
This is the difference between "colorless" and "generic." "Colorless" is a category of mana. "Generic" is a category of mana costs. This spell has a generic part in its cost, of 2, and you could spend colorless mana to fulfill this generic cost ... but you could also spend colored mana to fulfill this generic cost.
When you pay the BBGG for the spell, which costs 2GG, you still spent black mana. You simply spent it on a generic cost.
To me, that is easily the most interesting part of the new mana types.
All in all, spoiling will be great in limited, depending on speed i think it MAY see play in constructed.
Peel is a all out good card. It is a very good combat trick/utility piece for use with 187 creatures.
And lastly, the W/ creature is fun, and may see play in a reanimation style deck in extended, depending.