SoK: Man, that's one ugly Spirit! It looks huge and in need of a bathroom. I wonder if it has trample.
9th: Let's see. It's a statue. It's green. Could it be? Yes! It is! They're reprinting Vesuvan Doppleganger! Just kidding. It looks too much like Jade Statue. What else could it be?
RAV: Whatever it is, it flies. It's probably a white creature.
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Saviors Picture- I thinkit's going to be some kind of Rare Oni Demon (Black or Red)
9th- I'm also guessing Jade Statue
Ravica- I'm guess it's going to be a hero takes flight king of card
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That first one looks like a crappy Jubba the Hut...
The last one could be Skyhunter Skirmisher (a card that's been heavily speculated on).
Overall, very pretty (except the first one).
The first one is definitely pretty weird.
The last one is for Ravnica, not 9th, so I don't think its Skirmisher. It looks almost like a griffin.
The second one is definitely Jade Statue. It's a statue, and it's green (jade).
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Guys, I think you're all missing one important aspect of the Ravnica picture.
Can you tell me what the rider is? It seems that it has a long sharp tail and a reptilian head.
Can this be a lizardman? They did say that an old creature type is going to re-appear in Ravnica. Could this be it? Lizards weren't around for quite some time!
With all the new humanoid races around (Leonin (cat), Orochi (snake), Nezumi (rat) etc.), this could be very well a NEW humanoid version of lizards.
As for white "being the bad colour", no. If white was evil, it would be black. What makes a creature white? The colour of its armour? The fact that it's currently standing on a plains? No, by its intentions, desires, and actions. If a creature is evil, malicious, hateful, and spiteful, it's black. Even if it has a blue sheild or red boots. The suggestion that white could be the evil colour is as silly as saying that maybe blue will be the random, hasty, unpredictable colour. No.
following that logic R_E, the hero of this block shouldnt be black, but hes black and konda, a white card mind you, is def. the villian. black isnt evil anymore R_E, black is selfish, greedy, indugles himself in alot of vices. if thats evil, then, Im proud to be evil.
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The Saviours one is pretty obviously a demon. I don't know if anyone else noticed this though - he has no visible feet. All you can see are hands.
No, he can't be the all consuming oni of chaos, because he's described as a bunch of mouths and 3 eyes... plus I think he's on the same level as o-kagachi.
The 9th ed one definately looks as though it could be Jade Statue. I agree that the statue/creature looks like a black creature.
The Rav one seems white. I do see the reptilian tail of the rider pointed out by Major Glory, but I can't really tell what the head is, looking closely it seems like some sort of bearded face with a helment on :weird3:. The last humanoid lizards that were in magic (to my knowledge) were the Vaishino in the Urza block. They were all red. In fact, almost all lizards in magic have been red - only 6 haven't been and five of them are green, the last black. This may fuel some arguments for a multi-colored block, though I'm not sure. The mounts do not seem to be griffins. They look more reptilian as well - more like pteranodons. As for white being the "bad guys" of the block, I don't think they would do that for two blocks in a row - though I could be wrong. I've said it before, and until it's revealed which color consists of the "bad guys", I'll keep saying it - I think green will be the main antagonist color.
When I saw the Saviours pic, the first thing I thought of was 'Samurai Spirit'. I suppose it could be a samurai demon, instead. Not a great pic, but one that raises a lot of speculation...
I'm colorblind, so I didn't notice the 9th ed picture was green. I was thinking it may be Phyrexian Plaguelord. (shrug) Serviceable artwork.
I love the Ravinica art. The 'city of guilds' is beginning to look like a super-sized City of Gondor.
As for the 'bad color', white is the antagonist in Kamigawa block, by any definition of antagonist you want to use. White was also the antagonist in much of Onslaught Block, when Akroma went around killing everybody and anybody. They make white the 'bad guy' all the time. What I want to see is green be the bad guy.
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I'm also thinking the second pic is of Jade Statue (glad I have originals) it makes me _really_ hope *** stays in the base set
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RAV - Please oh please let Magic be good again, when Ravnica comes out!?! Please let them put at least 30 playable cards in the set, and please let's never speak of soulshift or arcane as long as we live. This artwork looks good, fairly fantasy-like, and also a bit political... as the whole "city-guild" thing seems to be pointing us. I hope it's interesting, with a strong set of cards to build decks from.
I also have to disagree with you. Communism is a VERY white philosophy and is generally considered, notice I said generally, evil, whereas Capitalism is a VERY black philosophy and is generally considered good.
See Maro's "In The Black"
Quote from Maro in "In the Black" »
Touch of Evil
I can’t talk about black without discussing the touchy issue. Is black synonymous with evil? I believe no. Sure, people associated with black can be evil. It’s clearly the color most prone to becoming evil. Most traditional evil fantasy villains fall into black. And early Magic flavor clearly played up the evilness of black. But having a high predisposition towards evil is not the same as being evil. Let me explain.
The color wheel is a tool used to give structure to the game’s flavor. Each point (aka color) on the wheel represents a different philosophy. When a color embodies a sentiment, it’s unique to that color. Allies of that color might be sympathetic to the sentiment but they do not embody it outright. Thus, the first reason black cannot be synonymous with evil is that it’s not limited to black.
Every color on the color wheel is capable of committing evil acts in the name of that color’s philosophy. White will create fascism. Red will commit manslaughter. Green will violently destroy things and blue will wantonly steal them. Evil is not about beliefs but actions. And all five colors are capable of doing evil things.
Second, many of the things black embodies can be used for good. For example, black is the color that stresses the importance of the individual. This is a fundamental part of things like capitalism and the American Constitution. Selfishness has its good uses. Sometimes, people really should put themselves first.
Third, people often confuse amorality with immorality. Black isn’t against morality. It simply doesn’t believe it means anything. An amoral person is just as likely to commit moral acts as immoral ones.
So yes, black mages often can be evil. But black as a color is not inherently evil. Being influenced by black’s philosophies does not necessarily mean that one will commit an evil act. That being the case, we cannot say that black represents evil. More closely aligned with evil than the other colors? Fine. More ripe with potential for evil? Sure. Evil? No. And that’s a very important distinction.
I think the Odyssey block tried to show white as being evil through the Order. It's all in perspective. The argument that white and black are strictly (respectivelly) good and evil, is ill based.
Just to point people in another direction with the RAV art... Take a look at the background. The Legions and Legions of troops on the ground. White the color is either getting ready to attack, or be attacked. It's something we can speculate about in terms of the story, but it also suggests perhaps a heavy emphasis on the soldier creature type.
I also have to disagree with you. Communism is a VERY white philosophy and is generally considered, notice I said generally, evil, whereas Capitalism is a VERY black philosophy and is generally considered good.
See Maro's "In The Black"
I think the Odyssey block tried to show white as being evil through the Order. It's all in perspective. The argument that white and black are strictly (respectivelly) good and evil, is ill based.
Ta for the clarification, Fear Mage - I woulda made that same post if I wanted to get into yet another :symw:/:symb: is not good/evil argument...
Rav could see as the antagonist colour - the overdeveloping of the plane certainly irritates this green mage... Ooo, M:tG's first Eco-Terrorist?
Just to point people in another direction with the RAV art... Take a look at the background. The Legions and Legions of troops on the ground. White the color is either getting ready to attack, or be attacked. It's something we can speculate about in terms of the story, but it also suggests perhaps a heavy emphasis on the soldier creature type.
Yeah, I saw that too and figured we'd see a lot of soldiers. I don't know how thrilled I would be to see soldiers as a significant creature type. CHK block has a lot of Samurai, and they had their own block mechanic. It'd be very repetitive to have the white soldiers get a block mechanic. Of course assuming that soldiers are a key creature type and they get a mechanic.
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Yeah, I saw that too and figured we'd see a lot of soldiers. I don't know how thrilled I would be to see soldiers as a significant creature type. CHK block has a lot of Samurai, and they had their own block mechanic. It'd be very repetitive to have the white soldiers get a block mechanic. Of course assuming that soldiers are a key creature type and they get a mechanic.
Well, soldiers were a primary creature type in Onslaught. They've put two sets between Onslaught and Ravinica (to make absolutely sure there are no interactions that can affect Type II ), so it's likely that soldiers will be back again soon.
I'm also expecting to see wizards, zombies, and maybe elves...although I don't know how they'll get elves in a city. Goblins are even less likely, and frankly I think we could use a vacation from goblins.
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Goblins are even less likely, and frankly I think we could use a vacation from goblins.
Oh yes, because goblins were everywhere in Mirrodin block.:tongue2:
I really like the second and third picture... But the first one seems like the unspeakables counterpart!
Also, I don't have any qualms with Jade Statue getting reprinted, but don't you think that something turning into something else might be considered too complicated for a base set?
Guys, note the four arms, the swords much in style with the Orochi, the large back-end as if it's pregnant, the tiny legs. Is it possible that this might very well be a Demon Spirit Snake of some sort? You never know. Me, I'm rooting for multicolored cards.
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I'd like to see a break from the tribal theme altogether! It narrows design way too much. I want to see cards designed with cool mechanics, instead of squeezed into a "snake", "soldier", or "spirit" frame.
As for "white can be evil" - no it can't. Black is the evil colour, so if a creature becomes evil, it becomes black. That doesn't change the colour of it's skin, clothing, weapons, aura, or anything else about it. All that means is that it is evil.
But yes, white can be an antagonist. There's nothing about being "good" that stops you from causing problems.
As for "good" and "evil", these are terms that cannot be clearly defined in and of themselves, not considering traits of the thing that you're trying to qualify as good or evil. As such they cannot be tied to any particular color (in MTG or otherwise). Unfortunately years of people associating white with good and black with evil (through cinema, books, and pretty much every mass publication device out there) have led society to tie them together like that. It has been defined that in Magic, white is the color of duty, order, stuff like that, where black is greedy, not somewhat chaotic, not afraid to get hurt to get whatever they want. R_E, in your first post you point out that a creature in magic is defined by their intentions, desires and actions. This is indeed true, but this does not mean that black has to be evil and white has to be good. If you have white ideals, but take them to the extreme, then you could be considered evil. Take terrorists. Terrorists have taken the lives of hundreds of thousands of people throughout the world, yet most do so because of their extreme religous views. That makes them seem pretty white to me. (The ones that are committing the acts just because of extreme political views seem black.)
Edit: (When I say you, I mean R_E, or those of the same view point)
Not to make this a flavor debate, but good and evil are purely subjective terms. Since I cannot think of a less subjective term, I will say that white is "generally" good and black is "generally" evil. However, that doesn't mean that they are always that way. Like Maro said, Fascism is a white philosophy, and is generally considered evil. I'm sure black views white as evil just as white views black as evil.
I think the reason we are disagreeing is because we are interpretting evil in two different ways. You are thinking of evil as the supervillian type, intent to do wrong things evil, where I am interpretting evil as a cultural standard, i.e. canibalism is considered evil by Chrisitians (generalization), but in some countries it is common place, even religiously necessary to indulge in canibalism.
So interpretting evil your way, yes, white can never be evil. But my way, every color can.
That SOK pic looks very wird, probably a sluggish oni of some sort.
The 9E pic looks very much like a Jade Statue, not much can be said about it, as you can look at where is standing pretty much gives it out doesn't it.
Now the Ravnica pic I love, it looks so wonderful, but there's something so familiar about it, something screams to me about it, it doesn't look like I've seen it on a card before, but where? Either ways me like.
Major Glory noticed the same thing I did. The guy riding the pteron look-alike seems to have pointed feet (or a tail). Major Glory interpreted it to be a tail, but it looks more like it's attached to the man's foot to me. It's really hard to tell though since his leg seems to be at the wrong angle. It may also be a sheath (of the sword the rider has raised) or stirrups, but why would they be so elongated? Since it matches the bridle almost exactly, it definitely isn't part of the rider, but could definitely be a piece of armor of some sort.
As for the troops, the larger machinelike things look sort of like crabs, but I wouldn't look too much into that since it's out of flavor. They're probably tanks because of their size, machinelike qualities, and what appears to be a dent (or hatch) on top.
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SoK: Man, that's one ugly Spirit! It looks huge and in need of a bathroom. I wonder if it has trample.
9th: Let's see. It's a statue. It's green. Could it be? Yes! It is! They're reprinting Vesuvan Doppleganger! Just kidding. It looks too much like Jade Statue. What else could it be?
RAV: Whatever it is, it flies. It's probably a white creature.
9th- I'm also guessing Jade Statue
Ravica- I'm guess it's going to be a hero takes flight king of card
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The first one is definitely pretty weird.
The last one is for Ravnica, not 9th, so I don't think its Skirmisher. It looks almost like a griffin.
The second one is definitely Jade Statue. It's a statue, and it's green (jade).
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Can you tell me what the rider is? It seems that it has a long sharp tail and a reptilian head.
Can this be a lizardman? They did say that an old creature type is going to re-appear in Ravnica. Could this be it? Lizards weren't around for quite some time!
With all the new humanoid races around (Leonin (cat), Orochi (snake), Nezumi (rat) etc.), this could be very well a NEW humanoid version of lizards.
following that logic R_E, the hero of this block shouldnt be black, but hes black and konda, a white card mind you, is def. the villian. black isnt evil anymore R_E, black is selfish, greedy, indugles himself in alot of vices. if thats evil, then, Im proud to be evil.
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The Saviours one is pretty obviously a demon. I don't know if anyone else noticed this though - he has no visible feet. All you can see are hands.
No, he can't be the all consuming oni of chaos, because he's described as a bunch of mouths and 3 eyes... plus I think he's on the same level as o-kagachi.
The 9th ed one definately looks as though it could be Jade Statue. I agree that the statue/creature looks like a black creature.
The Rav one seems white. I do see the reptilian tail of the rider pointed out by Major Glory, but I can't really tell what the head is, looking closely it seems like some sort of bearded face with a helment on :weird3:. The last humanoid lizards that were in magic (to my knowledge) were the Vaishino in the Urza block. They were all red. In fact, almost all lizards in magic have been red - only 6 haven't been and five of them are green, the last black. This may fuel some arguments for a multi-colored block, though I'm not sure. The mounts do not seem to be griffins. They look more reptilian as well - more like pteranodons. As for white being the "bad guys" of the block, I don't think they would do that for two blocks in a row - though I could be wrong. I've said it before, and until it's revealed which color consists of the "bad guys", I'll keep saying it - I think green will be the main antagonist color.
I'm colorblind, so I didn't notice the 9th ed picture was green. I was thinking it may be Phyrexian Plaguelord. (shrug) Serviceable artwork.
I love the Ravinica art. The 'city of guilds' is beginning to look like a super-sized City of Gondor.
As for the 'bad color', white is the antagonist in Kamigawa block, by any definition of antagonist you want to use. White was also the antagonist in much of Onslaught Block, when Akroma went around killing everybody and anybody. They make white the 'bad guy' all the time. What I want to see is green be the bad guy.
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
I also have to disagree with you. Communism is a VERY white philosophy and is generally considered, notice I said generally, evil, whereas Capitalism is a VERY black philosophy and is generally considered good.
See Maro's "In The Black"
I think the Odyssey block tried to show white as being evil through the Order. It's all in perspective. The argument that white and black are strictly (respectivelly) good and evil, is ill based.
I got it! It's "Thousand-Hand Kami" !
Sigh.
Just to point people in another direction with the RAV art... Take a look at the background. The Legions and Legions of troops on the ground. White the color is either getting ready to attack, or be attacked. It's something we can speculate about in terms of the story, but it also suggests perhaps a heavy emphasis on the soldier creature type.
Ta for the clarification, Fear Mage - I woulda made that same post if I wanted to get into yet another :symw:/:symb: is not good/evil argument...
Rav could see as the antagonist colour - the overdeveloping of the plane certainly irritates this green mage... Ooo, M:tG's first Eco-Terrorist?
On the other hand: are we sure this is a white card? Isn't Ravnica supposed to be about multicolor?
Yeah, I saw that too and figured we'd see a lot of soldiers. I don't know how thrilled I would be to see soldiers as a significant creature type. CHK block has a lot of Samurai, and they had their own block mechanic. It'd be very repetitive to have the white soldiers get a block mechanic. Of course assuming that soldiers are a key creature type and they get a mechanic.
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Well, soldiers were a primary creature type in Onslaught. They've put two sets between Onslaught and Ravinica (to make absolutely sure there are no interactions that can affect Type II ), so it's likely that soldiers will be back again soon.
I'm also expecting to see wizards, zombies, and maybe elves...although I don't know how they'll get elves in a city. Goblins are even less likely, and frankly I think we could use a vacation from goblins.
Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
Oh yes, because goblins were everywhere in Mirrodin block.:tongue2:
I really like the second and third picture... But the first one seems like the unspeakables counterpart!
Also, I don't have any qualms with Jade Statue getting reprinted, but don't you think that something turning into something else might be considered too complicated for a base set?
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As for "white can be evil" - no it can't. Black is the evil colour, so if a creature becomes evil, it becomes black. That doesn't change the colour of it's skin, clothing, weapons, aura, or anything else about it. All that means is that it is evil.
But yes, white can be an antagonist. There's nothing about being "good" that stops you from causing problems.
.
As for "good" and "evil", these are terms that cannot be clearly defined in and of themselves, not considering traits of the thing that you're trying to qualify as good or evil. As such they cannot be tied to any particular color (in MTG or otherwise). Unfortunately years of people associating white with good and black with evil (through cinema, books, and pretty much every mass publication device out there) have led society to tie them together like that. It has been defined that in Magic, white is the color of duty, order, stuff like that, where black is greedy, not somewhat chaotic, not afraid to get hurt to get whatever they want. R_E, in your first post you point out that a creature in magic is defined by their intentions, desires and actions. This is indeed true, but this does not mean that black has to be evil and white has to be good. If you have white ideals, but take them to the extreme, then you could be considered evil. Take terrorists. Terrorists have taken the lives of hundreds of thousands of people throughout the world, yet most do so because of their extreme religous views. That makes them seem pretty white to me. (The ones that are committing the acts just because of extreme political views seem black.)
Not to make this a flavor debate, but good and evil are purely subjective terms. Since I cannot think of a less subjective term, I will say that white is "generally" good and black is "generally" evil. However, that doesn't mean that they are always that way. Like Maro said, Fascism is a white philosophy, and is generally considered evil. I'm sure black views white as evil just as white views black as evil.
I think the reason we are disagreeing is because we are interpretting evil in two different ways. You are thinking of evil as the supervillian type, intent to do wrong things evil, where I am interpretting evil as a cultural standard, i.e. canibalism is considered evil by Chrisitians (generalization), but in some countries it is common place, even religiously necessary to indulge in canibalism.
So interpretting evil your way, yes, white can never be evil. But my way, every color can.
So far, the first one kinda reminds me of Soul Collector, the second of Jade Statue (or Juzam Djinn), and the third of Skyhunter Skirmisher.
The 9E pic looks very much like a Jade Statue, not much can be said about it, as you can look at where is standing pretty much gives it out doesn't it.
Now the Ravnica pic I love, it looks so wonderful, but there's something so familiar about it, something screams to me about it, it doesn't look like I've seen it on a card before, but where? Either ways me like.
As for the troops, the larger machinelike things look sort of like crabs, but I wouldn't look too much into that since it's out of flavor. They're probably tanks because of their size, machinelike qualities, and what appears to be a dent (or hatch) on top.