What I want to know is if this program has actually a player base... what use is for it to look good if there's no one to play against?
I believe so. I just joined the mIRC chat, and there were many users(many afk of course), but I was informed that there's usually always someone in the chat who's up for games. I haven't tested the program yet, but I'm excited it has Zendikar. Will reply with my experience with the interface after I play a few games tonight.
@all: the program is still in alpha status, as i stated already before, and so some features are going to change, other are going to be improved, other are going to be added, and bugs that will come out are going to be fixed. So far, the program has most of the requirements needed to play a card game (not necessarily magic). That statement is true if the game definition is correctly implemented.
There are people working to improve each part of the program, so right now is pointless to criticize it just because "this is missing", "that is not working like MWS", "IRC sucks" etc. These fanboy things always make me going mad
Now, i don't want to say "this is better than that or that is better than this", and octgn's main purpose is not to dispossess MWS from the throne of the most used magic client (yet :rolleyes:).
If you like the interface and want to try something new, this is a great opportunity you have. If you also wanna help (for example improving magic game definition) you are welcome.
Otherwise, you are free to stick with a program which let you play only magic (as far as i know at least), not free, and semi-discontinued
I know that changing consolidated habits is really hard, I'm having myself some problems to leave alone octgn1 and use octgn2, but i believe in this project and i am sure it can become a great tool for people to play cards game on-line/test RL decks etc...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On the Internet you can be anything you want.
It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid...
New game definition:
1) added preliminary phases handling (using Functions buttons such as F1-F4, not automated)
2) added preliminary priority handling
3) added a "respond" button
4) added new actions such as "mill X" (worded better) and "return all cards from grave to library", used for example with feldon's cane kind of effects (still need to shuffle manually though, until it's figured out how to do it authomatically). Added also "discard a card at random" action
5) changed and tweaked a bunch of keyboard shortcuts to cover all the basic actions of a magic game (attack, block, etc.)
Hope you can enjoy it !! It can be downloaded from the mediafire.com/sets site.
Comments about it can be done at the octgn.net forums, or here too
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On the Internet you can be anything you want.
It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid...
Thanks for the update. Is the token creation system still buggy? I never had any problem with it (other than being really slow) but a few people on IRC were saying it could make OCTGN crash.
EDIT: just tried it and F1 - F4 is a really cool addition, thanks.
Token creation is a core feature and it's not related to the game definition, so only the developer of the client can modify it (his last update stated that he intended to fix it though).
The crash was related to an error in a couple of tokens from kamigawa and shadowmoor. Both have been fixed, so no more crashes
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On the Internet you can be anything you want.
It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid...
drag the card on the lower part of library, a white arrow pointing down will appear. A message in the chat will state that the card is put on bottom of the library
In future game definition release, an option to shuffle cards on bottom of the library could be added, as soon as the xml to code that action is figured out
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On the Internet you can be anything you want.
It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid...
I've been using OCTGN for some time now. There's things I like about it, and there's things I don't like about it.
First, the good. Multiplayer support is actually nice and the main feature which drew me to OCTGN in the first place. Add in the fact that I believe any number of players can join allowing for team games such as Emperor, two headed giant, or large games of Free-for-all.
The game interface is simple enough that any player familiar with MtG (or CCGs in general) can pickup rather quickly. It's also pleasant to look at for the most part.
What I don't like about OCTGN is what makes it my second choice for online MtG play. It seems to be prone for crashing and disconnecting people. When a person crashes, it ruins the game for everyone else.
There's little consistency with the database. After searching for the sets for a few hours, I found out my regular group of online buddies found the sets made by different people. This led to a lot of unrecognized cards.
The Sets themselves are rather large downloads. Unlike MWS or Apprentice card art doesn't seem optional, leading to very large downloads. MWS database size = 4MB, Apprentice database size = 2MB, OCTGN database size = 1.11 GB.
Connecting to games is cumbersome. It's been a long time since players had to exchange IP's to play a game. Some sort of open game searching would be nice especially if it's used for league play.
Deck building is clunky. The inability to import decks from Apprentice or MWS makes this so much worse. Search options are there, but I've never gotten them to work correctly. No filtering by color or set that I've seen.
Token Generation stalls the game for an almost unbearable length of time. We've gotten to the point of adding token cards to our sideboards to avoid this stall.
Now what I'd like to see added or changed: A consistent database similar to MWS or Apprentice. More stable Client to Client connection. Add a Game Search option that manages or eliminates the need to share IPs. The way OCTGN is designed would really be nice to implement simulated draft games.
OCTGN opens a nice option of playing games with more than 2 players. However, in my opinion, it still needs much more refinement to become a replacement for MWS or Apprentice.
I've been using OCTGN for some time now. There's things I like about it, and there's things I don't like about it.
First, the good. Multiplayer support is actually nice and the main feature which drew me to OCTGN in the first place. Add in the fact that I believe any number of players can join allowing for team games such as Emperor, two headed giant, or large games of Free-for-all.
The game interface is simple enough that any player familiar with MtG (or CCGs in general) can pickup rather quickly. It's also pleasant to look at for the most part.
This doesn't really need an answer, since i agree completely with that
What I don't like about OCTGN is what makes it my second choice for online MtG play. It seems to be prone for crashing and disconnecting people. When a person crashes, it ruins the game for everyone else.
Just to be clear, octgn is still in alpha status, meaning that there are missing features, other need to be improved/changed. There is a bugtracker site where you can submit error logs for the developer to fix. Already many of them have been fixed and many need to be still fixed. The link is this: http://octgn.16bugs.com/projects/3602
There's little consistency with the database. After searching for the sets for a few hours, I found out my regular group of online buddies found the sets made by different people. This led to a lot of unrecognized cards.
The project started with a few people doing first version of a few sets, just to test the funcionality of the client, then some guys decided to begin doing things more seriously, and now you can find everything you need. If there are other guys doing set files outside IRC chat room guys, those files are not supported by the official team. Of course i can't link the site for legal reasons, but you can fin more informations in the IRC chat channel
The Sets themselves are rather large downloads. Unlike MWS or Apprentice card art doesn't seem optional, leading to very large downloads. MWS database size = 4MB, Apprentice database size = 2MB, OCTGN database size = 1.11 GB.
Yeah, octgn handles sets differently from other programs and even from octgn 1. Unfortunately a database without pictures can't be done as far as i know, since pictures are tied to spoilers through ids (called guids), in order to avoid people having different versions of the same file (as you have already noticed, in that case either one or both can't see other player's pictures).
Connecting to games is cumbersome. It's been a long time since players had to exchange IP's to play a game. Some sort of open game searching would be nice especially if it's used for league play.
I don't know how MWS handles connections, but i guess it uses a central server in order to find players. In that case, who pays for the server? What happens if the server crashes? No one can play?
octgn has historically used direct connections for playing, but i guess that with a bit of organization everything can be solved in a way everyone agree with.
League play is not a main goal of octgn 2, but if it will be chosen in the future as official client for leagues, I can assure nobody will complain
Deck building is clunky. The inability to import decks from Apprentice or MWS makes this so much worse. Search options are there, but I've never gotten them to work correctly. No filtering by color or set that I've seen.
The deck builder is alpha as well, and needs a complete revamp. There is a workaroud for color filtering, using the "mana cost" filter and put the color you need (for example using W will find out each card containing W in the mans cost, so white and multicolored cards as well). The filter for sets has been present for a while, i think you have an outdated version of the client if you dont see it (it's the first one on the left in the filter bar). Latest version is 0.6.1.2.
About search options in general, you can use any number of filter options, even of the same type. For example, in order to search the text "deals damage to a creature" you need to use 3 filters for rules, one with each word. I know, it's not really comfortable (i think an "or" expression should be added among the options for instance) but as i said, deck builder will be changed heaviliy in the future, so it can only be improved.
Token Generation stalls the game for an almost unbearable length of time. We've gotten to the point of adding token cards to our sideboards to avoid this stall.
Yes, that is another feature that needs to be improved heavily. The developer has already stated he will dig into the problem and fix it in one of the next release of the client.
Now what I'd like to see added or changed: A consistent database similar to MWS or Apprentice. More stable Client to Client connection. Add a Game Search option that manages or eliminates the need to share IPs. The way OCTGN is designed would really be nice to implement simulated draft games.
I think i have already answered in the previous quotes. About draft/sealed, that is one of the features that will come in the next one or two releases, as it is the main reason why many people still continue to use older or other clients instead of octgn 2.
OCTGN opens a nice option of playing games with more than 2 players. However, in my opinion, it still needs much more refinement to become a replacement for MWS or Apprentice.
I agree with you, but i can assure everyone is working hard to make things better every release, the only thing is needed is time...
About the servers issue: the mws server is a freely available program that can be downloaded from the workstation site. It is something that can be used in addition to direct IP connections, wich can be very cumbersome to a lot of people because they are in a network/behind a firewall and don't have the rights to open ports or set static ip's in their network.
If you would have been looking a bit more on what is going on in the mws part of magic playing, you would have known that at any given time there are multiple named servers running, and besides that there are some servers that are only known by ip adress (and no, I don't know any off the top of my head since I run my own server thank you).
Another option to play is opt, wich also uses a centralized server but has a not so elegant interface. It is much less advertized but in my opinion it is a very stable and reliable program, and it supports multiplayer in different formats, and winston draft on-server, and full draft too.
Also, the server will be available for download when it reaches it's next incarnation, so everybody willing can run a server.
On the deck editing problems: the problem that people have with it is mostly because there are two things happening at the same time: OCTGN doesnot read apprentice or mws decks, and secondly, the deckbuilding/filtering is clunky to say the least. This means that people have to start completely from the bottom and learn a way of deckbuilding wich may well be obsoleted by the next octgn version since, as you state multiple times, it still is in alpha.
One of my biggest complaints though is the fact that you ahve to download every single set seperately. The moment I heard that I was instantly turned off by the prospect of going through several hours of waiting and clicking at irregular intervals.
One downloadpack of all blocks would be a good thing, or at least a full pack with every completed block, with an additional download of the sets from the current packs or at least a standard pack. It would lower a lot of the frustration of players. I don't think it is a problem with a very big urgency, but still.
The deckbuilder though is a complet different beast and I would advise people that are working on octgn to make some very big and quick changes to the editor to make people enjoy octgn, since every deck starts with building it, and if that experience is less than enjoyable, people will never start using octgn.
i dont understand how "mws server" works. Is it a centralized server or anyone can create his own server? Or both? In the first case, someone has to pay for the servers, unless he/she owns them or has free access to them, and there could be problems if the servers go down for any reason (though i think is unlikely, it's not impossible). I've just read in an italian site which explains how it works that often public servers are full, so tha't another issue.
In the second case, if someone creates his own server (assuming that he uses it only for the game he's playing and not for other people after), how does he connects to other players? He should give an ip or an address to others (address that is a masked ip in the end), so where are the differences between giving an ip and creating a server? Or am i missing something?
With Octgn 1 and 2 too you can "create your own server" but still you need to give an ip or an address to other players...
I don't want to criticize, i'm just asking because i don't know how mws works and i have no time to try it out actually...
About firewall issues i agree with you by the way, but players usually solve this using hamachi...
About deck editor i have said everything in the previous post: it needs a massive update and in the near future it will be rewritten almost completely, so for now that is what is available, and it's not so bad once one gets used to it...
about single sets separately, this has be done for some simple reasons
1) not everyone is interested in downloading every set.
2) creating a torrent is not possible because who makes sets doesn't have time/upload speed/will to create a torrent and maintain it.
3) doing a single big zip/rar file means having for sure problems with crc errors and so on, no matter how many times one check the zip/rar file
By the way, there are already availablle packed files containing group of sets, each file having a couple of blocks or a group of core sets. So far extended has been splitted into 4 files, standard sets have been grouped together and there are also some vintage packs, missing only vintage/legacy core sets. You can find more info if you connect to the #octgn IRC chan...
The source site where you can find files from has not download limits, so one can take several files at the same time. Download speed are not excellent but don't suck too...
For info, feedback and discussions about the client, just join octgn.net forums
You yourself say you don't know how the mws server works, so why don't you try and give it a spin.
I am certain that a person that knows his way around the internet can find the site of mws and find the host. I think it is best to first try something and after that judge on how it works, both from a client pov and a server hoster.
Remember that a server can be host to a multitude of players. I run my own server and sometimes have up to 70 games going on at the same time without many problems, and a processor/bandwith load that is neglicible.
Ofcourse you would have to know how to forward ports etc, but that is something you must know when you run a stand alone client too.
Same goes for the opt server except on that one you will have to log in with username/password combo and there is more user control on the server. I can say that I like how that server works but you will see that yourself when the server is available for download.
Was MWS just perfect and completely bugfree when the first version was released?
Something tells me NO. And still now it isn't.
So please stop whining about everything, that is just ridiculous.
nobody is going to dl 13MB of data per set when they already have all the pictures for MWS
Stats say the contrary to me, since the total bandwidth used for downloading octgn 2 set files tells "661 Gbs", meaning that hundreds of people already downloaded them (total size of sets is 1.25 Gb)...
First, please cease attacking the good people at OCTGN2. Criticizing is one thing, but its starting to step over that line.
Personally, I've never used MWS, and never will due to the exorbitant complications in setting it up, the huge initial investment in downloading images, and the fact that the creators of the program don't care about its well being. It is maintained by some dedicated 3rd party individuals, which is admirable, but they are not the creators, and are thus limited in what they can do.
I could care about OCTGN2, but you know what I'd like to see first? An option to just have it auto-download images from gatherer as you access them in the program. Sure, they aren't "HQ", but I don't care. It makes setting up about a bazillion times simpler, and there is no huge initial investment in memory. Just take the images as you need 'em. And what's more, I know its possible - Firemox did it, but nobody else wants to do it. *shrugs*
Not really, the client itself is developed by one person only. Then other people care about images and game definitions. I am one of them
I think i'll write a better "official topic" regarding octgn 2, where i'll do a general overview of the client and how it works. This one is partially incomplete
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On the Internet you can be anything you want.
It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid...
First, please cease attacking the good people at OCTGN2. Criticizing is one thing, but its starting to step over that line.
What is said in the last few posts by both me and jorbes can hardly be called atacking. It is just criticism. A bit hars maybe, but still no dishonest atacks
Personally, I've never used MWS, and never will due to the exorbitant complications in setting it up, the huge initial investment in downloading images, and the fact that the creators of the program don't care about its well being. It is maintained by some dedicated 3rd party individuals, which is admirable, but they are not the creators, and are thus limited in what they can do.
well, the investment for octgn is in that case about the same, but it is made harder, just because they choose to work with a different image format, so that point is moot. I can even make a case that the initial investment in setting up magic workstation is less, since the total download (mws, plus the gamepack plus the new theme) is something like 13 MB.
My main beef is with the fact that if you have gone through the trouble of downloading the images for mws, you will have to do the same with pictures for OCTGN. It would have been much easier if the same naming convention would have been used. It saves a lot of problems.
I could care about OCTGN2, but you know what I'd like to see first? An option to just have it auto-download images from gatherer as you access them in the program. Sure, they aren't "HQ", but I don't care. It makes setting up about a bazillion times simpler, and there is no huge initial investment in memory. Just take the images as you need 'em. And what's more, I know its possible - Firemox did it, but nobody else wants to do it. *shrugs*
In defense of OCTGN I must say that this is not really an option. You must be completely sure that wizards will keep the url of the sets the same every time, and I know form experience that they change the urls from time to time, so using a fixed set of pics is the best way of working.
OTOH, I would like to see an option of using text based card pics like in mws for people that don't have a fast connection, and don't want to download for an x-amount of time.
Continuing on my personal views: If you want people to convert to yourt new and improved way of doing things, you wil have to ease them into it. This is not stabbing or whatever, but history shows that people are not willing to start completely anew when their old program is becoming obsoleted by newer programs. Just look at companies that still ue 10 year old software packages. The best thing a software developper can do is make the shift easier by incorporating features and things that are familiar to them, and help them by making it possible for them to use the old files they already used and made, in this specific case, the picture downloads and the deck files.
I am not saying that the deck editor must be identical, but at least the opportunity of importing deck files is something that must be present to ease people in the new program.
Gaspare said "Otherwise, you are free to stick with a program which let you play only magic (as far as i know at least), not free, and semi-discontinued"
For all practical purposes, MWS is fully discontinued.
"about single sets separately, this has be done for some simple reasons
1) not everyone is interested in downloading every set."
Perhaps, but 99.9% of Magic users DO want every set. You're catering to the exception, not the rule. The majority only want a single set when it is first released, to update their collection.
"2) creating a torrent is not possible because who makes sets doesn't have time/upload speed/will to create a torrent and maintain it."
You don't understand how torrents work then. A proper torrent has a life of its own and requires no maintenance. I haven't seeded the HQ Pics torrent for two years but it is still extremely healthy.
In fact, I've seen Octagon torrents out there. The reason you guys don't have one is because you're afraid of being busted by WOTC.
"3) doing a single big zip/rar file means having for sure problems with crc errors and so on, no matter how many times one check the zip/rar file"
Huh? This also is untrue. I've served Terabytes of downloads without one CRC error. If you're really worried about errors, you can use the "Put recovery record option" of winrar.
Finally, the naming convention for Octagon pics, using numbers and spoilers, is stupid. I think it started with Magic Encyclopedia, and it's obsolete.
@Pichoro: There is no huge initial investment in images for MWS. You can play without pics, like with Apprentice, or use the Tiny Crops Set I made which is about 100 MB and looks great.
I've been following Octagon for years. I would love to see it finished one day, but the development is glacially slow, and the developers have a bunker mentality and exclusionary attitude which doesn't help.
Otherwise, you are free to stick with a program which let you play only magic (as far as i know at least), not free, and semi-discontinued
Well, mws is free for all intents and purposes, and it is fully discontinued (altough detonator has anounced he will start working on the builder/catalogue part again for what it's worth)
But still there are other options like:
OPT
lackeyccg
cockatrice
mtgplayer
There is also some japanes initiative that I have seen, but I forgot the name. It is quite crude in it's view, but it does the job decent enough
Also, not to forget, there still is a group of people that is very fond of apprentice.
Point is: people don't care if something is in development, but they do care if they can get a nice playing experience. Programming wise I think the best up to date are OPT and lackeyccg, and OCTGN is coming close. I am not bashing the programmers, I am just stating things as I see them.
I know that changing consolidated habits is really hard, I'm having myself some problems to leave alone octgn1 and use octgn2, but i believe in this project and i am sure it can become a great tool for people to play cards game on-line/test RL decks etc...
This is exactly the reason why I keep on stating that every new program needs at least a little compatibility with the older generation. People are lazy, and scared of changes. If you can give them something that gives you a little bit of familiarity with their past, you will reel them in much easier.
Remember how hard it was for people to change to mws? Even now, on the bigger IRC channels concerning online magic, I see people complaining about mws and how much easier and better apprentice is. A program that has been obsolete for something like 6 or 7 years, and has been discontinued even longer by it's original programmers.
Not really, the client itself is developed by one person only. Then other people care about images and game definitions. I am one of them
Then maybe you can still help me - if you've got your hands in the Magic game definition, I'm interested in learning about making an export template from MSE to OCTGN, if its feasible.
I think i'll write a better "official topic" regarding octgn 2, where i'll do a general overview of the client and how it works. This one is partially incomplete
What is said in the last few posts by both me and jorbes can hardly be called atacking. It is just criticism. A bit hars maybe, but still no dishonest atacks
Its not honesty I take issue with - one comment in particular drew my attention. "With everything still being in 'alpha' status, the OCTGN people may want to focus on programming instead of spamming mtg fora hehe. No offense, but it would make the 'acceptance' of a new product so much faster, it being.. you know, done and all."
You must be completely sure that wizards will keep the url of the sets the same every time, and I know form experience that they change the urls from time to time...
Then release a patch to update the location where the program looks for the images. And yes, that could be a monumental task considering how many cards there are, but there's also a second source of images: magiccard.info.
All I'm saying is there are ways around this massive package of images thing - but nobody's willing to see the better way.
about the pictures, to be honest, the availability of broadband is getting better and better, so I guess downloading speeds is not a restriction in reality, and if I definitely don't want to download bunches of pics, I could always use the texted version.
First, please cease attacking the good people at OCTGN2. Criticizing is one thing, but its starting to step over that line.
Personally, I've never used MWS, and never will due to the exorbitant complications in setting it up, the huge initial investment in downloading images, and the fact that the creators of the program don't care about its well being. It is maintained by some dedicated 3rd party individuals, which is admirable, but they are not the creators, and are thus limited in what they can do.
I could care about OCTGN2, but you know what I'd like to see first? An option to just have it auto-download images from gatherer as you access them in the program. Sure, they aren't "HQ", but I don't care. It makes setting up about a bazillion times simpler, and there is no huge initial investment in memory. Just take the images as you need 'em. And what's more, I know its possible - Firemox did it, but nobody else wants to do it. *shrugs*
Gaspare, are you an OCTGN2 developer?
Just ignore the haters Pichoro, most of them don't know what they're talking about.
I tried the program and I absolutely love it. Thank you for helping make it. This has quickly become my favorite client by a large margin.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I believe so. I just joined the mIRC chat, and there were many users(many afk of course), but I was informed that there's usually always someone in the chat who's up for games. I haven't tested the program yet, but I'm excited it has Zendikar. Will reply with my experience with the interface after I play a few games tonight.
@all: the program is still in alpha status, as i stated already before, and so some features are going to change, other are going to be improved, other are going to be added, and bugs that will come out are going to be fixed. So far, the program has most of the requirements needed to play a card game (not necessarily magic). That statement is true if the game definition is correctly implemented.
There are people working to improve each part of the program, so right now is pointless to criticize it just because "this is missing", "that is not working like MWS", "IRC sucks" etc. These fanboy things always make me going mad
Now, i don't want to say "this is better than that or that is better than this", and octgn's main purpose is not to dispossess MWS from the throne of the most used magic client (yet :rolleyes:).
If you like the interface and want to try something new, this is a great opportunity you have. If you also wanna help (for example improving magic game definition) you are welcome.
Otherwise, you are free to stick with a program which let you play only magic (as far as i know at least), not free, and semi-discontinued
I know that changing consolidated habits is really hard, I'm having myself some problems to leave alone octgn1 and use octgn2, but i believe in this project and i am sure it can become a great tool for people to play cards game on-line/test RL decks etc...
It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid...
1) added preliminary phases handling (using Functions buttons such as F1-F4, not automated)
2) added preliminary priority handling
3) added a "respond" button
4) added new actions such as "mill X" (worded better) and "return all cards from grave to library", used for example with feldon's cane kind of effects (still need to shuffle manually though, until it's figured out how to do it authomatically). Added also "discard a card at random" action
5) changed and tweaked a bunch of keyboard shortcuts to cover all the basic actions of a magic game (attack, block, etc.)
Hope you can enjoy it !! It can be downloaded from the mediafire.com/sets site.
Comments about it can be done at the octgn.net forums, or here too
It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid...
EDIT: just tried it and F1 - F4 is a really cool addition, thanks.
The crash was related to an error in a couple of tokens from kamigawa and shadowmoor. Both have been fixed, so no more crashes
It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid...
In future game definition release, an option to shuffle cards on bottom of the library could be added, as soon as the xml to code that action is figured out
It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid...
First, the good. Multiplayer support is actually nice and the main feature which drew me to OCTGN in the first place. Add in the fact that I believe any number of players can join allowing for team games such as Emperor, two headed giant, or large games of Free-for-all.
The game interface is simple enough that any player familiar with MtG (or CCGs in general) can pickup rather quickly. It's also pleasant to look at for the most part.
What I don't like about OCTGN is what makes it my second choice for online MtG play. It seems to be prone for crashing and disconnecting people. When a person crashes, it ruins the game for everyone else.
There's little consistency with the database. After searching for the sets for a few hours, I found out my regular group of online buddies found the sets made by different people. This led to a lot of unrecognized cards.
The Sets themselves are rather large downloads. Unlike MWS or Apprentice card art doesn't seem optional, leading to very large downloads. MWS database size = 4MB, Apprentice database size = 2MB, OCTGN database size = 1.11 GB.
Connecting to games is cumbersome. It's been a long time since players had to exchange IP's to play a game. Some sort of open game searching would be nice especially if it's used for league play.
Deck building is clunky. The inability to import decks from Apprentice or MWS makes this so much worse. Search options are there, but I've never gotten them to work correctly. No filtering by color or set that I've seen.
Token Generation stalls the game for an almost unbearable length of time. We've gotten to the point of adding token cards to our sideboards to avoid this stall.
Now what I'd like to see added or changed: A consistent database similar to MWS or Apprentice. More stable Client to Client connection. Add a Game Search option that manages or eliminates the need to share IPs. The way OCTGN is designed would really be nice to implement simulated draft games.
OCTGN opens a nice option of playing games with more than 2 players. However, in my opinion, it still needs much more refinement to become a replacement for MWS or Apprentice.
This doesn't really need an answer, since i agree completely with that
Just to be clear, octgn is still in alpha status, meaning that there are missing features, other need to be improved/changed. There is a bugtracker site where you can submit error logs for the developer to fix. Already many of them have been fixed and many need to be still fixed. The link is this:
http://octgn.16bugs.com/projects/3602
The project started with a few people doing first version of a few sets, just to test the funcionality of the client, then some guys decided to begin doing things more seriously, and now you can find everything you need. If there are other guys doing set files outside IRC chat room guys, those files are not supported by the official team. Of course i can't link the site for legal reasons, but you can fin more informations in the IRC chat channel
Yeah, octgn handles sets differently from other programs and even from octgn 1. Unfortunately a database without pictures can't be done as far as i know, since pictures are tied to spoilers through ids (called guids), in order to avoid people having different versions of the same file (as you have already noticed, in that case either one or both can't see other player's pictures).
I don't know how MWS handles connections, but i guess it uses a central server in order to find players. In that case, who pays for the server? What happens if the server crashes? No one can play?
octgn has historically used direct connections for playing, but i guess that with a bit of organization everything can be solved in a way everyone agree with.
League play is not a main goal of octgn 2, but if it will be chosen in the future as official client for leagues, I can assure nobody will complain
The deck builder is alpha as well, and needs a complete revamp. There is a workaroud for color filtering, using the "mana cost" filter and put the color you need (for example using W will find out each card containing W in the mans cost, so white and multicolored cards as well). The filter for sets has been present for a while, i think you have an outdated version of the client if you dont see it (it's the first one on the left in the filter bar). Latest version is 0.6.1.2.
About search options in general, you can use any number of filter options, even of the same type. For example, in order to search the text "deals damage to a creature" you need to use 3 filters for rules, one with each word. I know, it's not really comfortable (i think an "or" expression should be added among the options for instance) but as i said, deck builder will be changed heaviliy in the future, so it can only be improved.
Yes, that is another feature that needs to be improved heavily. The developer has already stated he will dig into the problem and fix it in one of the next release of the client.
I think i have already answered in the previous quotes. About draft/sealed, that is one of the features that will come in the next one or two releases, as it is the main reason why many people still continue to use older or other clients instead of octgn 2.
I agree with you, but i can assure everyone is working hard to make things better every release, the only thing is needed is time...
It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid...
If you would have been looking a bit more on what is going on in the mws part of magic playing, you would have known that at any given time there are multiple named servers running, and besides that there are some servers that are only known by ip adress (and no, I don't know any off the top of my head since I run my own server thank you).
Another option to play is opt, wich also uses a centralized server but has a not so elegant interface. It is much less advertized but in my opinion it is a very stable and reliable program, and it supports multiplayer in different formats, and winston draft on-server, and full draft too.
Also, the server will be available for download when it reaches it's next incarnation, so everybody willing can run a server.
On the deck editing problems: the problem that people have with it is mostly because there are two things happening at the same time: OCTGN doesnot read apprentice or mws decks, and secondly, the deckbuilding/filtering is clunky to say the least. This means that people have to start completely from the bottom and learn a way of deckbuilding wich may well be obsoleted by the next octgn version since, as you state multiple times, it still is in alpha.
One of my biggest complaints though is the fact that you ahve to download every single set seperately. The moment I heard that I was instantly turned off by the prospect of going through several hours of waiting and clicking at irregular intervals.
One downloadpack of all blocks would be a good thing, or at least a full pack with every completed block, with an additional download of the sets from the current packs or at least a standard pack. It would lower a lot of the frustration of players. I don't think it is a problem with a very big urgency, but still.
The deckbuilder though is a complet different beast and I would advise people that are working on octgn to make some very big and quick changes to the editor to make people enjoy octgn, since every deck starts with building it, and if that experience is less than enjoyable, people will never start using octgn.
In the second case, if someone creates his own server (assuming that he uses it only for the game he's playing and not for other people after), how does he connects to other players? He should give an ip or an address to others (address that is a masked ip in the end), so where are the differences between giving an ip and creating a server? Or am i missing something?
With Octgn 1 and 2 too you can "create your own server" but still you need to give an ip or an address to other players...
I don't want to criticize, i'm just asking because i don't know how mws works and i have no time to try it out actually...
About firewall issues i agree with you by the way, but players usually solve this using hamachi...
About deck editor i have said everything in the previous post: it needs a massive update and in the near future it will be rewritten almost completely, so for now that is what is available, and it's not so bad once one gets used to it...
about single sets separately, this has be done for some simple reasons
1) not everyone is interested in downloading every set.
2) creating a torrent is not possible because who makes sets doesn't have time/upload speed/will to create a torrent and maintain it.
3) doing a single big zip/rar file means having for sure problems with crc errors and so on, no matter how many times one check the zip/rar file
By the way, there are already availablle packed files containing group of sets, each file having a couple of blocks or a group of core sets. So far extended has been splitted into 4 files, standard sets have been grouped together and there are also some vintage packs, missing only vintage/legacy core sets. You can find more info if you connect to the #octgn IRC chan...
The source site where you can find files from has not download limits, so one can take several files at the same time. Download speed are not excellent but don't suck too...
For info, feedback and discussions about the client, just join octgn.net forums
It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid...
I am certain that a person that knows his way around the internet can find the site of mws and find the host. I think it is best to first try something and after that judge on how it works, both from a client pov and a server hoster.
Remember that a server can be host to a multitude of players. I run my own server and sometimes have up to 70 games going on at the same time without many problems, and a processor/bandwith load that is neglicible.
Ofcourse you would have to know how to forward ports etc, but that is something you must know when you run a stand alone client too.
Same goes for the opt server except on that one you will have to log in with username/password combo and there is more user control on the server. I can say that I like how that server works but you will see that yourself when the server is available for download.
Something tells me NO. And still now it isn't.
So please stop whining about everything, that is just ridiculous.
Stats say the contrary to me, since the total bandwidth used for downloading octgn 2 set files tells "661 Gbs", meaning that hundreds of people already downloaded them (total size of sets is 1.25 Gb)...
It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid...
Personally, I've never used MWS, and never will due to the exorbitant complications in setting it up, the huge initial investment in downloading images, and the fact that the creators of the program don't care about its well being. It is maintained by some dedicated 3rd party individuals, which is admirable, but they are not the creators, and are thus limited in what they can do.
I could care about OCTGN2, but you know what I'd like to see first? An option to just have it auto-download images from gatherer as you access them in the program. Sure, they aren't "HQ", but I don't care. It makes setting up about a bazillion times simpler, and there is no huge initial investment in memory. Just take the images as you need 'em. And what's more, I know its possible - Firemox did it, but nobody else wants to do it. *shrugs*
Gaspare, are you an OCTGN2 developer?
My Moderator Helpdesk| My Custom Set List | My MSE Template HostingI think i'll write a better "official topic" regarding octgn 2, where i'll do a general overview of the client and how it works. This one is partially incomplete
It's strange that so many people choose to be stupid...
What is said in the last few posts by both me and jorbes can hardly be called atacking. It is just criticism. A bit hars maybe, but still no dishonest atacks
well, the investment for octgn is in that case about the same, but it is made harder, just because they choose to work with a different image format, so that point is moot. I can even make a case that the initial investment in setting up magic workstation is less, since the total download (mws, plus the gamepack plus the new theme) is something like 13 MB.
My main beef is with the fact that if you have gone through the trouble of downloading the images for mws, you will have to do the same with pictures for OCTGN. It would have been much easier if the same naming convention would have been used. It saves a lot of problems.
In defense of OCTGN I must say that this is not really an option. You must be completely sure that wizards will keep the url of the sets the same every time, and I know form experience that they change the urls from time to time, so using a fixed set of pics is the best way of working.
OTOH, I would like to see an option of using text based card pics like in mws for people that don't have a fast connection, and don't want to download for an x-amount of time.
Continuing on my personal views: If you want people to convert to yourt new and improved way of doing things, you wil have to ease them into it. This is not stabbing or whatever, but history shows that people are not willing to start completely anew when their old program is becoming obsoleted by newer programs. Just look at companies that still ue 10 year old software packages. The best thing a software developper can do is make the shift easier by incorporating features and things that are familiar to them, and help them by making it possible for them to use the old files they already used and made, in this specific case, the picture downloads and the deck files.
I am not saying that the deck editor must be identical, but at least the opportunity of importing deck files is something that must be present to ease people in the new program.
MWS does have modules to play more than just Magic. Some I know of are Netrunner, The Spoils, Pokemon, etc.
See http://www.magi-soft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4065
MWS is free to use forever.
For all practical purposes, MWS is fully discontinued.
"about single sets separately, this has be done for some simple reasons
1) not everyone is interested in downloading every set."
Perhaps, but 99.9% of Magic users DO want every set. You're catering to the exception, not the rule. The majority only want a single set when it is first released, to update their collection.
"2) creating a torrent is not possible because who makes sets doesn't have time/upload speed/will to create a torrent and maintain it."
You don't understand how torrents work then. A proper torrent has a life of its own and requires no maintenance. I haven't seeded the HQ Pics torrent for two years but it is still extremely healthy.
In fact, I've seen Octagon torrents out there. The reason you guys don't have one is because you're afraid of being busted by WOTC.
"3) doing a single big zip/rar file means having for sure problems with crc errors and so on, no matter how many times one check the zip/rar file"
Huh? This also is untrue. I've served Terabytes of downloads without one CRC error. If you're really worried about errors, you can use the "Put recovery record option" of winrar.
Finally, the naming convention for Octagon pics, using numbers and spoilers, is stupid. I think it started with Magic Encyclopedia, and it's obsolete.
@Pichoro: There is no huge initial investment in images for MWS. You can play without pics, like with Apprentice, or use the Tiny Crops Set I made which is about 100 MB and looks great.
I've been following Octagon for years. I would love to see it finished one day, but the development is glacially slow, and the developers have a bunker mentality and exclusionary attitude which doesn't help.
Well, mws is free for all intents and purposes, and it is fully discontinued (altough detonator has anounced he will start working on the builder/catalogue part again for what it's worth)
But still there are other options like:
OPT
lackeyccg
cockatrice
mtgplayer
There is also some japanes initiative that I have seen, but I forgot the name. It is quite crude in it's view, but it does the job decent enough
Also, not to forget, there still is a group of people that is very fond of apprentice.
Point is: people don't care if something is in development, but they do care if they can get a nice playing experience. Programming wise I think the best up to date are OPT and lackeyccg, and OCTGN is coming close. I am not bashing the programmers, I am just stating things as I see them.
This is exactly the reason why I keep on stating that every new program needs at least a little compatibility with the older generation. People are lazy, and scared of changes. If you can give them something that gives you a little bit of familiarity with their past, you will reel them in much easier.
Remember how hard it was for people to change to mws? Even now, on the bigger IRC channels concerning online magic, I see people complaining about mws and how much easier and better apprentice is. A program that has been obsolete for something like 6 or 7 years, and has been discontinued even longer by it's original programmers.
Then maybe you can still help me - if you've got your hands in the Magic game definition, I'm interested in learning about making an export template from MSE to OCTGN, if its feasible.
Feel free.
Its not honesty I take issue with - one comment in particular drew my attention. "With everything still being in 'alpha' status, the OCTGN people may want to focus on programming instead of spamming mtg fora hehe. No offense, but it would make the 'acceptance' of a new product so much faster, it being.. you know, done and all."
That's stepping over the line of being civil.
Yet it is clearly possible - Firemox did it for the time during which they existed.
Then release a patch to update the location where the program looks for the images. And yes, that could be a monumental task considering how many cards there are, but there's also a second source of images: magiccard.info.
All I'm saying is there are ways around this massive package of images thing - but nobody's willing to see the better way.
My Moderator Helpdesk| My Custom Set List | My MSE Template HostingMy Moderator Helpdesk| My Custom Set List | My MSE Template HostingJust ignore the haters Pichoro, most of them don't know what they're talking about.
I tried the program and I absolutely love it. Thank you for helping make it. This has quickly become my favorite client by a large margin.