myheartgoesoontz asked:
Re: Brawl support - The fact that Brawl isn't on Arena is a huge, huge indicator that WotC doesn't support Brawl. The fact that we can't play your Standard-Commander format on your Standard-only online client (that already supports Standard Singleton) is baffling. Any insight?
The reality is a little backwards. There’s a lot Magic: The Gathering Arena could do. Popularity in tabletop would help communicate that this is something players would enjoy on MTG Arena. If you like the idea of Brawl and want to eventually see it in digital, playing it in tabletop is the best way of showing that interest.
One of the reasons I dislike Brawl is the additional work and money necessary to maintain both a Brawl and a standard deck. Not ironically, almost all of that goes away on Arena. Any money spent on cards is shared across all decks, regardless of format. A better pill to swallow.
In addition, even if I were to build a paper Brawl deck, there just isn't enough paper players to fire off a game. Seriously, it's a chicken and egg problem at this point. I don't want to build a Brawl deck because no one else is playing Brawl. Other people aren't building a Brawl deck because... you know, no one is playing.
However, on Arena, that too also goes away as the pool of players is significantly larger.
His comment mystifies me a little. After all, what better platform to test out new formats than Arena or MTGO? Players won't suffer a monetary loss investing in cards that won't be played elsewhere and WotC can go to town on new formats until something sticks.
I think there's the issue of money here but I'll let time tell.
Wow, "You don't play it in paper, so you can't be that interested in it" is a really ill-conceived way to look at it.
The popularity of Brawl suffers a lot from the simple fact that EDH/Commander is a much more attractive option for most players that are interested in a format of that kind.
Also in arena, you can't just buy exactly what you need for specific decks - you have to build an extensive collection by design, therefore accumulating (at least) singles of a lot of cards. I assume most arena players could quickly throw a very playable brawl deck together from what they have just lying around anyway.
Very true. Many players (myself included) who only play on Arena would love to play a Commander format, with any restriction really. Make it Brawl, make it Arena-sets only, I don't care. Just a casual 100 singleton general format would be awesome.
If wotc wasnt only interested in cash, there'd be a redeeming cards for gold or gems system by now. So yeah, they don't see how to cash in on it yet - in other words, they want to see it more at the tabletop cause then it would mean people invested enough to buy into arena's cash grabbing system without having to change anything,
As with all things the problem is Money and Time. Wizards has a finite amount of time and money to invest in Arena, and adding anything requires an investment of both to differing degrees. Arena isn't even fully implemented so they are prioritizing the things that make more money, such as being functional at all and aesthetics. If Wizards sees Brawl as unpopular they have little incentive to push to have it working on Arena, however if Brawl is popular then implementing it on Arena is a potential way to get more players. Maro is rather clear on this, if you want Brawl make it obvious that you want brawl, the main way to do so being get it played in paper which is where they look most often. If you really don't want to or can't play it in paper then on every survey they do make sure you communicate that you want to see it on Arena.
Wizards can add whatever format they want to the game. The problem right now with Arena is that they should never have had best of one 60 card constructed, and the monetization system they picked has created a painful skinner box situation where people slam best of ones over doing best of three. The only game type worth playing online at the moment is draft and sealed.
I mean, adding brawl is relatively easy to do from a programming perspective and they probably have it on their shortlist of things to add in, the main issues they have on defcon one (or should have, at least) are all with best of one and getting SOI and up into the game. They need a format with a large number of sets that people can fall back on, since Arena right now is mimicking the worst aspects of Force of Will.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It looks to me this is more a salty comment about the failure of Brawl than a constructive answer. Arena offers all the convenience and ease of use than tabletop can't offer, so making it available there is just a bonus for players. It's extremely probable that a lot of Arena players would rather enjoy building some random deck with the cards they got for free playing now and then than going through all the hassle and financials of analyzing a metagame, acquiring real cards, find events, commute to them, spend time at the place for maybe get 0-4'd and so on. Making it unavailable on Arena because they're angry it didn't catch up in the cardboard format will certainly not help the format at all.
I don't read it as "salty", kind of bizarre take to put on it. It still costs time and energy to program Arena to make Brawl work, time and energy they probably want to devote to other projects. It's not as simple as saying "we should do this" and then it happens.
my LGS refuses to hold brawl events, despite the fact that several players ask for it. there is a huge commander community that doesnt want to play standard but wouldnt mind to play brawl.
arena has formats that are not played in paper anyways, whats the argument for those ?
just use arena as a platform to promote brawl if the interest is not as high as they want it.
this maro post is not just stupid, it is ignorant and a dangerous attitude as well if u ask me. but ok... already deleted arena cause it sucks (at least it does for me), so guess this is just another reason to keep it uninstalled
I really don't see what programming issues they would run into with brawl. They can make Omniscience drafts and Momir Vig, but Brawl is too much of a resource commitment?
I'm just saying that it does take resources. Acting like WotC would be spiteful about it is... kind of silly. Companies aren't going to ignore something that would help make them money just out of spite, that isn't how it works.
I don't read it as "salty", kind of bizarre take to put on it. It still costs time and energy to program Arena to make Brawl work, time and energy they probably want to devote to other projects. It's not as simple as saying "we should do this" and then it happens.
I don't think anyone is really suggesting otherwise. I also agree it's the bean counters looking at paper and saying, "denied," for Arena. Every change made for Arena has been to try and pull money out of our wallets. So if the proponents can't prove Brawl is making money, then Arena isn't going to see it.
I suspect that Arena has already reached, or very nearly so, a threshold where such an addition wouldn't incur a substantial cost in money or development time. Arena has already proven itself to have singleton rule enforcement. Surgical restrictions and/or bans on specific formats and events. Bans and restrictions on the fly. Commander zone behavior coded in. That's just a few things off the top of my head. For all we know, they may be so far along that it might be a simple tweak as to simply change
EnableBrawl = FALSE
to
EnableBrawl = TRUE
.
I don't like paper Brawl and have no intention of ever playing it on paper, but even I can't deny the benefits the format could have on Arena.
I really don't see what programming issues they would run into with brawl. They can make Omniscience drafts and Momir Vig, but Brawl is too much of a resource commitment?
Its not programming issues. It's time issues. Your statement of "they have x format and y format. Why not Z format." Has a very simple not malicious answer. They haven't gotten around to Z format because they spent their time implementing X format and Y format. And based on Maro's words Z format isn't on the main list of formats they want to implement. They are aware if all of the various formats players play and will implement them in the way that they believe will result in the most money. So if brawl isn't seen as popular it will remain on the back burner.
I would def play Brawl on Arena. It has died down on paper over here though.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Arena works the way it does in large part due to its simplicity. That's its key advantage over Mtgo. Fewer cards, fewer format, fewer interactions, fewer rules that need to be coded, more shortcuts that can be taken. Its easier to program two formats for a small card pool and keep everything running smoothly. The time and effort mentioned by other posters matters, and being able to focus all efforts on a minimal number of cards and formats ensures Hearthstone levels of client quality. Its at the sacrifice of game quality of course because its a stripped down version of magic, but that's the trade off. If brawl were super popular, it would be added, because it would be worth the trade off. Its not popular, so it isn't worth the trade off of risking more bugs and a less smooth client, or putting in more resources to be able to maintain the current level of client quality while adding a new format with unique rules.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
One of the reasons I dislike Brawl is the additional work and money necessary to maintain both a Brawl and a standard deck. Not ironically, almost all of that goes away on Arena. Any money spent on cards is shared across all decks, regardless of format. A better pill to swallow.
In addition, even if I were to build a paper Brawl deck, there just isn't enough paper players to fire off a game. Seriously, it's a chicken and egg problem at this point. I don't want to build a Brawl deck because no one else is playing Brawl. Other people aren't building a Brawl deck because... you know, no one is playing.
However, on Arena, that too also goes away as the pool of players is significantly larger.
His comment mystifies me a little. After all, what better platform to test out new formats than Arena or MTGO? Players won't suffer a monetary loss investing in cards that won't be played elsewhere and WotC can go to town on new formats until something sticks.
I think there's the issue of money here but I'll let time tell.
The popularity of Brawl suffers a lot from the simple fact that EDH/Commander is a much more attractive option for most players that are interested in a format of that kind.
Also in arena, you can't just buy exactly what you need for specific decks - you have to build an extensive collection by design, therefore accumulating (at least) singles of a lot of cards. I assume most arena players could quickly throw a very playable brawl deck together from what they have just lying around anyway.
W(W/U)U Ephara - Flash & Taxes W(W/U)U || B(B/G)G Meren - Circle of Life B(B/G)G
RGW Marath - Ever shifting Wilds RGW || (U/R)C(W/B) Breya - Artificial Dominion (U/R)C(W/B)
UBR Becket Brass - take what you can, give nothing back UBR
I mean, adding brawl is relatively easy to do from a programming perspective and they probably have it on their shortlist of things to add in, the main issues they have on defcon one (or should have, at least) are all with best of one and getting SOI and up into the game. They need a format with a large number of sets that people can fall back on, since Arena right now is mimicking the worst aspects of Force of Will.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
arena has formats that are not played in paper anyways, whats the argument for those ?
just use arena as a platform to promote brawl if the interest is not as high as they want it.
this maro post is not just stupid, it is ignorant and a dangerous attitude as well if u ask me. but ok... already deleted arena cause it sucks (at least it does for me), so guess this is just another reason to keep it uninstalled
I don't think anyone is really suggesting otherwise. I also agree it's the bean counters looking at paper and saying, "denied," for Arena. Every change made for Arena has been to try and pull money out of our wallets. So if the proponents can't prove Brawl is making money, then Arena isn't going to see it.
I suspect that Arena has already reached, or very nearly so, a threshold where such an addition wouldn't incur a substantial cost in money or development time. Arena has already proven itself to have singleton rule enforcement. Surgical restrictions and/or bans on specific formats and events. Bans and restrictions on the fly. Commander zone behavior coded in. That's just a few things off the top of my head. For all we know, they may be so far along that it might be a simple tweak as to simply change to .
I don't like paper Brawl and have no intention of ever playing it on paper, but even I can't deny the benefits the format could have on Arena.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!